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Another Ubuntu install bites the dust
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Comments (42)
22 earlier comments in the full thread.
We'll see when the final of 2009.0 is released. If 4 has matured enough I go with it, otherwise I'll wait until 2009.1 and look at it again. I've managed to upset a number of people on the KDE forum, by pointing out the fact that many 3 features, that I depend on, are missing, but all I want is to see KDE 4 get better, I'd like to use it.
Quoting:As I understand it, 4.1.1 will be installed by default, but 3.5.10 will be in the repos, so you'll have access to it should you choose to run it. Not sure yet which I will go with.
This is how I understand it as well, but some of us on the Mandriva forum are trying to persuade them put KDE3.5.10 on the Free DVD as well as KDE4. I don't think it's a good idea (in fact I think it's an out-and-out bad idea) to have KDE4 as the only KDE option on the install medium. KDE4 is simply nowhere near ready to have as a production desktop and my worry is that Linux newbs will try it and not only be put off Linux but tell a lot of other people it's a load of crap too. The same goes for Mandriva One. I think it's vital that they use 3.5.10 and then have an optional CD for those who really want KDE4 and understand it's in beta.
I'll be doing the same as Traceyanne and just sticking with 2008.1 until KDE4 is ready unless thay add a 3.5 option to 2009.0. Like TA, I see nothing inherently wrong with DE4, it's simply nowhere near ready for release yet. One other thing that's come to light is that the 2009.0 KDE version relies heavily on Mono which is causing some, er, debate!
@DiBosco:
>"the 2009.0 KDE version relies heavily on Mono which is causing some, er, debate!"
Understandably. I tend to share herzeleid's opinion on Mono, so it's not a problem in itself for me. but I'd be very curious as to the details of that debate. I realize there are several apps using Mono, but could you elaborate on what portions of their KDE implementation are using Mono that's causing the noise, or maybe have a link I could check out?
Understandably. I tend to share herzeleid's opinion on Mono, so it's not a problem in itself for me. but I'd be very curious as to the details of that debate. I realize there are several apps using Mono, but could you elaborate on what portions of their KDE implementation are using Mono that's causing the noise, or maybe have a link I could check out?
dumper, someone issued this command:
urpme libmono0 | grep 2009
And found that there were 299 dependencies that seemed to rip the guts of KDE4.
Thread starts here:
http://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=93002&postdays=0&p...
And goes on for six pages now.
From what I can make out (and I'm starting lose track now) there used to be only a Beagle which depended on Mono (horrible program which I always uninstall!) and now something in Open Office has been built against Mono. I think that thread references two bug reports which seem to have contradictory claims as well.
What I can definitely say is that 2008.1 runs just fine without Mono and if I try remove it from 2009.0 RC1 it wants to remove so many packages it wouldn't be much of an OS!
urpme libmono0 | grep 2009
And found that there were 299 dependencies that seemed to rip the guts of KDE4.
Thread starts here:
http://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=93002&postdays=0&p...
And goes on for six pages now.
From what I can make out (and I'm starting lose track now) there used to be only a Beagle which depended on Mono (horrible program which I always uninstall!) and now something in Open Office has been built against Mono. I think that thread references two bug reports which seem to have contradictory claims as well.
What I can definitely say is that 2008.1 runs just fine without Mono and if I try remove it from 2009.0 RC1 it wants to remove so many packages it wouldn't be much of an OS!
What if you use RPM to remove it but force it to remove without the other stuff? Does the other stuff still work?
On the subject of Ubuntu, can any of the Ubuntu users here tell me how to set Ubuntu to auto login a user. It's dead set simple for me on Mandriva, but I can't find the corresponding functionality on Ubuntu.
I just helped a new Linux user set up Ubuntu, a bloke down the road bought a 1 Gig P3 256 Meg of RAM machine (complete with Windows XP and Virii) for $50, he didn't really want Windows, and had been toying with the idea of installing Linux, he asked for my help/advice, he was rather taken with the idea of installing the copy of Hardy Heron he'd received with Linux Format magazine, so I helped him out, but I'm not familiar enough with Ubuntu/GNOME to do a couple things he wanted.
I just helped a new Linux user set up Ubuntu, a bloke down the road bought a 1 Gig P3 256 Meg of RAM machine (complete with Windows XP and Virii) for $50, he didn't really want Windows, and had been toying with the idea of installing Linux, he asked for my help/advice, he was rather taken with the idea of installing the copy of Hardy Heron he'd received with Linux Format magazine, so I helped him out, but I'm not familiar enough with Ubuntu/GNOME to do a couple things he wanted.
TA: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutoLogin
I don't have my Ubuntu box handy, so hopefully that's not an old howto that doesn't work anymore. I know you can do it, it's just finding out where.
I don't have my Ubuntu box handy, so hopefully that's not an old howto that doesn't work anymore. I know you can do it, it's just finding out where.
Thanks Carla, I'll give that a go.
TC, my thanks also. TA, thanks for asking that one.
On the subject of Mandriva/Mono, I just subjected myself to the waste of time that is reading the comments on Distrowatch. There are a few interesting comments in there every so often.
Adam Williamson has posted, "For the tenth time in the last two days, nothing vital in KDE depends on Mono. task-kde3 depends on Kerry. Kerry depends on Mono. If you don't want Mono, do 'urpme mono'. It will take with it everything which depends on Mono. The task-kde3 package will be removed as well, but that's fine, because it's a metapackage. It doesn't contain anything important. KDE will continue to work perfectly well.
KDE DOES NOT DEPEND ON MONO. Thank you. That is all."
Adam Williamson has posted, "For the tenth time in the last two days, nothing vital in KDE depends on Mono. task-kde3 depends on Kerry. Kerry depends on Mono. If you don't want Mono, do 'urpme mono'. It will take with it everything which depends on Mono. The task-kde3 package will be removed as well, but that's fine, because it's a metapackage. It doesn't contain anything important. KDE will continue to work perfectly well.
KDE DOES NOT DEPEND ON MONO. Thank you. That is all."
Thank you bigg, I wasn't actually worried, for two reasons, 1) I know that the KDE devs have nothing that depends on Mono, so therefore Mandriva can't 2) I don't see Mono as a problem.
I really should post on the Mandriva forums and add my ha'pence worth on the subject of Mono, even if just for the stir factor.
I really should post on the Mandriva forums and add my ha'pence worth on the subject of Mono, even if just for the stir factor.
I might misunderstand the situation, but it does seem that the RC1 KDE *does* depend on Mono. *If* that is the case (and it certainly seems that way) then surely filing a bug report is reasonable? Granted that depends on: 1) Whether I understand correctly 2) Whether needing Mono is a bug!
It's fine to say nothing in KDE depends on Mono, but when it's not possible to take Mono off the RC1 install without crippling your system that would suggest to me that Mono is vital. I tried taking it off my RC1 and could not do it without it falling over in a heap. Mono does seem to be a big deal to me because from what I understand it slow and bloaty, not to mention it's reverse engineered from a horrible MS language. Also, it's KDE4 that seems to be the real issue, not KDE3.
If it's fixed (again depending on whether you see this as a problem) I then I think the bug report was worthwhile.
If I have misunderstood what is going on I would love someone to explain it to me.
It's fine to say nothing in KDE depends on Mono, but when it's not possible to take Mono off the RC1 install without crippling your system that would suggest to me that Mono is vital. I tried taking it off my RC1 and could not do it without it falling over in a heap. Mono does seem to be a big deal to me because from what I understand it slow and bloaty, not to mention it's reverse engineered from a horrible MS language. Also, it's KDE4 that seems to be the real issue, not KDE3.
If it's fixed (again depending on whether you see this as a problem) I then I think the bug report was worthwhile.
If I have misunderstood what is going on I would love someone to explain it to me.
I'll have to install RC1 on a spare machine, I've only run it from the CD, and on a borrowed MacBook, and find out. But... if Adam says there isn't an issue and that it's relatively easy to uninstall Mono (kerry being the only KDE centric app that relies on it) then I'd tend to believe him.
Kerry is a KDE/Beagle interface, that makes Beagle play nice with KDE (as nice as it can, I hates beagle), and of course Beagle is written in C# (Mono). But Beagle is only a desktop msearch engine, which I remove at install time on the PWP version, and post install on Mandriva One, and as Kerry depends on Beagle it always disappears for me as well. I leave Mono, cos I use Monodevelop.
On the other hand I've had no trouble removing Mono from my machines, I have to reinstall some GNOME applications, like Evolution, because they have links to applications that depend on Mono, but It's no big deal, in my experience. I can't see that Mandriva have made lots of dependencies on Mono, they are quite conservative in that respect, and the only apps i knw of that have Mono dependencies are GNOME ones.
Kerry is a KDE/Beagle interface, that makes Beagle play nice with KDE (as nice as it can, I hates beagle), and of course Beagle is written in C# (Mono). But Beagle is only a desktop msearch engine, which I remove at install time on the PWP version, and post install on Mandriva One, and as Kerry depends on Beagle it always disappears for me as well. I leave Mono, cos I use Monodevelop.
On the other hand I've had no trouble removing Mono from my machines, I have to reinstall some GNOME applications, like Evolution, because they have links to applications that depend on Mono, but It's no big deal, in my experience. I can't see that Mandriva have made lots of dependencies on Mono, they are quite conservative in that respect, and the only apps i knw of that have Mono dependencies are GNOME ones.
My partner just skyped me with this message.
Quoting: Trevor [the bloke down the road I mentioned in an earlier post] stopped to say how WONDERFUL Linux is and soooooooo easy
Good on ya, tracyanne!
DiBosco -
1. If Mandriva has a package that makes KDE depend on mono from the standpoint of its packaging system, then that is just plain wrong, whether or not somebody wants to call it a bug.
2. Although you may not want mono on your system, a preference to which you are entitled, installing it does nothing but take up cheap disk space if you don't use it. Galling? Sure. A real problem? Nah. Well -- I suppose you could have an old machine with a 512 mb drive, but you wouldn't be talking about KDE with one of those anyway.
1. If Mandriva has a package that makes KDE depend on mono from the standpoint of its packaging system, then that is just plain wrong, whether or not somebody wants to call it a bug.
2. Although you may not want mono on your system, a preference to which you are entitled, installing it does nothing but take up cheap disk space if you don't use it. Galling? Sure. A real problem? Nah. Well -- I suppose you could have an old machine with a 512 mb drive, but you wouldn't be talking about KDE with one of those anyway.
Here's another post from Adam:
Quoting:
We have metapackages for making it easy to install KDE in Mandriva. task-kde3 for KDE 3. task-kde4-minimal and task-kde4 for KDE 4.
You *do not need these packages installed*. They're just for convenience. All they are, essentially, is lists of dependencies.
Neither task-kde4 nor task-kde4-minimal introduce any dependency on Mono. task-kde4 'depends' (due to a packaging error) on openoffice.org-core. This will be resolved in the next release of openoffice.org. However, openoffice.org-core does not depend on Mono, there's no Mono dependency there.
task-kde3 depends (indirectly, I haven't figured out the exact chain yet...) on Kerry, which requires Beagle, which requires Mono. This is unlikely to be changed. However, you can perfectly well install task-kde3 and then do 'urpme mono'. It will remove kerry, beagle, and the task-kde3 package, but KDE 3 will still work fine. Removing task-kde3 does not stop KDE 3 working.
In other matters, Evolution and openoffice.org-common (not openoffice.org-core) depend on mono essentially due to poor upstream coding - Evolution and go-oo are both coded so that if you enable their Mono support, you can't avoid having a Mono dependency in the core package, whereas it would be best if the code allowed the dependency to be restricted to the Mono subpackage (evolution-mono and openoffice.org-mono ).
I have a bug report open upstream on the Evolution case. I also have a bug report filed on the OO.o case, but we will likely drop the Mono support in our OO.o package if it is not resolved soon. Evo is more of a borderline case.
Hope all of this makes sense, I'm in a restaurant and have had about a dozen cups of sake so far...
Quoting:I'm in a restaurant and have had about a dozen cups of sake so far...
He did better than I could have.
Quoting:Hope all of this makes sense, I'm in a restaurant and have had about a dozen cups of sake so far...Little Tokyo, or Gardena perhaps?
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As I understand it, 4.1.1 will be installed by default, but 3.5.10 will be in the repos, so you'll have access to it should you choose to run it. Not sure yet which I will go with.