When you see Flash, Duck and Cover
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Comments (38)
18 earlier comments in the full thread.
Quoting:The way they killed Google, the iPod, and countless other technologies?That makes little sense since, as you know, microsoft has not been able to kill the particular technologies you mentioned. But surely it can not have escaped your notice that they have succeeded in killing many others?
If we work hard to hand microsoft control over de facto standards, the competition stands a very good chance of going the way of dr-dos. What do you suppose will happen to flash if we succeed in steering a majority away from flash, to silverlight/moonlight?
> But surely it can not have escaped your notice that they have succeeded in killing many others?
As big as Flash? From as strong a company as Adobe?
They killed Netscape because Netscape was charging for something that Microsoft was including in the OS for free. Since the antitrust trial, how many large competitors have they killed off?
> What do you suppose will happen to flash if we succeed in steering a majority away from flash, to silverlight/moonlight?
You seem to believe you have strong powers.
As big as Flash? From as strong a company as Adobe?
They killed Netscape because Netscape was charging for something that Microsoft was including in the OS for free. Since the antitrust trial, how many large competitors have they killed off?
> What do you suppose will happen to flash if we succeed in steering a majority away from flash, to silverlight/moonlight?
You seem to believe you have strong powers.
Quoting:As big as Flash? From as strong a company as Adobe?You seem to believe that adobe has strong powers.
Quoting:You seem to believe you have strong powers.How so? Were you assuming that my use of "we, the linux community" meant me personally? inquiring minds want to know.
Quoting:But are they good applications? After seeing apps from several different developers and dev houses, does it become obvious which ones were "developed" using some brain-dead drag-and-drop with no understanding of how it actually works?
Visual Basic programs still suffer from the same malady; I doubt M$ have transcended it with an IDE for Silverlight.
And the blindingly obvious is again ignored.
So what if most of the stuff that is build is not good. The stuff is used by lots and lots of people, that's the blindingly obvious point you some how must have closed your eyes for... maybe it was just too blindingly obvious.
It's elitist thinking that keeps good FOSS tools from the sort of uptake that would make the services and CODECS from becoming ubiquitous, not the quality of the toolsets. The attitude that one shouldn't make the tools Drag and Drop dead simple so that the hoipoloi won't/can't use them is what holds back far too many FOSS toolsets from major acceptance.
Microsoft make it brain dead simple for anyone to use their stuff, that is their secret innovation to software.
Well... I agree with the "brain dead" point in Tracyanne's post.
Quoting:I can't see why someone hasn't leveled anti-trust allegations against Adobe.
When it comes to Flash that's easy: -Because the people who have Flash on their PC chose to install it themselves (AFAIK), -Because it's not tied to another product in a market where the producer of the tied product has a dominant position; -Because the one complaining should suffer from the abuse of a dominant position of the one accused. Normally, only companies or foundations are able to file a complaint, because doing so requires rather a bit of effort and probably some costs as well. As a single end-consumer it's hard to proof you are suffering from Flash; though not impossible. The FSF doesn't have an alternative which is suffering from Flash. Even worse, they recreated it showing they don't see Flash as a problem, but as a good platform which they have to emulate. Actually only Microsoft would suffer from Flash because they are the only ones providing an alternative at this time I believe. So the only one entitled to such a complaint - at this time as far as I could tell - would be Microsoft. They are not going to sue Adobe for anti-competitive behaviour, because it will hit them back like a boomerang some other day.
If you don't agree, go ahead, be my guest, and file your complaint (or ask a company or foundation to do so):
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/others/formc.html http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm#document * (or whatever it may be if you live 'somewhere else').
We can only benefit if the EC/USDOJ decides you're right, I'm wrong and 'end consumers suffer from Flash'.
*However, when it comes to anti-trust don't expect them to actually do anything except admitting "there's an infringement".
Quoting:And the blindingly obvious is again ignored.Yes, I did, deliberately so.
Quoting:The attitude that one shouldn't make the tools Drag and Drop dead simple so that the hoipoloi won't/can't use them is what holds back far too many FOSS toolsets from major acceptance.I actually agree with you on that. The problem is that, when you make a tool any moron can use, only a moron will use it.
An IDE made by anyone, Microsoft Visual Studio, Java NetBeans, GPL-licensed, or something else, can go only so far before its assumptions for your code become hindrances. At some point, you must get into the text editor and type. This is true for any non-trivial task; an accomplishment that doesn't involve manual code entry is, almost by definition, trivial.
No offense meant gus but that sounds suspiciously like elitism, or at best "The way grandpa did it is good enough from me and no new fangled gizmo is needed." I see no reason to place an artificial bar to entry.
Okay, keeping with the civil tone, I'll propose a reductio ad absurdum:
If we want to make it as easy as possible, then the Holy Grail should be that someone who knows no programming language, can create a computer-aided design program. And if anyone could design a system to do that, it would be either Microsoft or IBM.
I won't go so far as to say it will never happen. But I don't see it as being within our reach, yet.
If we want to make it as easy as possible, then the Holy Grail should be that someone who knows no programming language, can create a computer-aided design program. And if anyone could design a system to do that, it would be either Microsoft or IBM.
I won't go so far as to say it will never happen. But I don't see it as being within our reach, yet.
> ...then the Holy Grail should be...
The Holy Grail in that case is a self programming computer. You tell it what you want in English (or whatever your native language is) and it writes the program for you.
The Holy Grail in that case is a self programming computer. You tell it what you want in English (or whatever your native language is) and it writes the program for you.
Or you draw it some pretty pictures. APL, anyone? Oh, wait, that's a programming language whose time was gone before it came...
> Or you draw it some pretty pictures. APL, anyone?
I thought that was Logo. :)
I thought that was Logo. :)
With Logo, the pretty pictures are the output.
With APL, the pretty pictures are the program.
..... Then could Logo be an APL pre-processor?
*head explodes*
With APL, the pretty pictures are the program.
..... Then could Logo be an APL pre-processor?
*head explodes*
gus3: Do you teach classes in PL/1 as well? How about B?
Quoting:An IDE made by anyone, Microsoft Visual Studio, Java NetBeans, GPL-licensed, or something else, can go only so far before its assumptions for your code become hindrances. At some point, you must get into the text editor and type. This is true for any non-trivial task; an accomplishment that doesn't involve manual code entry is, almost by definition, trivial.
Yes there are times (many) where Visual Studio's assumptions get in the way, so if you know what you are doing you turn them off.
The point is anyone who can afford Visual Studio (and there is a no cost entry level version) can create a GUI application or a web page. The point is that any can, and because of that lots of people do. The point is not that it's good code but that there are lots of people making microsoft's way of doing thing ubiquitous. Same applioes ti media, and media formats. make it drag and drop dead simple to create the stuff and they will come and they will use it and they will make your product, your way, your CODECs ubiquitous.
Quoting:If we want to make it as easy as possible, then the Holy Grail should be that someone who knows no programming language, can create a computer-aided design program.
Reductio ad absurdum? People ask for it all the time. Just see this bug report against my gnome-hearts game: http://bugzilla.jejik.com/show_bug.cgi?id=42
@gus3
The point of programming languages themselves is to be tools to make things easier else we better use machine language. The importance is only of design, algorithms and not of the programming language itself. So far no one (in my knowledge) has found a turing-complete way to express the same in a simple point and click fashion else I would say that approach would be more desirable if it is decidedly quicker. In my opinion, it is quite unnecessary for people like scientists etc. to become programming experts or hire some, to be able to effectively use the power of computers in their fields and it will be wonderful if someone could come up with a simple point and click approach for the same.
Quoting: I actually agree with you on that. The problem is that, when you make a tool any moron can use, only a moron will use it.Excuse me, but this has to be one of more senseless points made in these forums. By your logic those using GUI designers like glade/qtdesigner or even vim/emacs with all IDE like features are morons. The point of IDEs is to make programming easier for all including those who you think are morons, but particularly for programmers. There is no reason for programmers to hunt around in files to find some type or call hierarchy or write code to create and place GUI elements, for example, when an IDE can do it perfectly in a few keystrokes/clicks.
An IDE made by anyone, Microsoft Visual Studio, Java NetBeans, GPL-licensed, or something else, can go only so far before its assumptions for your code become hindrances. At some point, you must get into the text editor and type. This is true for any non-trivial task; an accomplishment that doesn't involve manual code entry is, almost by definition, trivial.
The point of programming languages themselves is to be tools to make things easier else we better use machine language. The importance is only of design, algorithms and not of the programming language itself. So far no one (in my knowledge) has found a turing-complete way to express the same in a simple point and click fashion else I would say that approach would be more desirable if it is decidedly quicker. In my opinion, it is quite unnecessary for people like scientists etc. to become programming experts or hire some, to be able to effectively use the power of computers in their fields and it will be wonderful if someone could come up with a simple point and click approach for the same.
@krisum:
I had a somewhat erudite response typed up, agreeing in large part with your comment, and then I began the following assertion:
http://primeedge.com/Asbuilt_news/Autodesk_Visual_Studio.htm
http://through-the-interface.typepad.com/through_the_interfa...
So it appears likely that Autodesk used Visual Studio to build AutoCAD.
I feel very Emily Littella-ish right now. "Never mind!"
I had a somewhat erudite response typed up, agreeing in large part with your comment, and then I began the following assertion:
Quoting:When I see a CAD/CAM system that's obviously built on Visual StudioWhich made me think I'd better check for it myself. I found the following:
http://primeedge.com/Asbuilt_news/Autodesk_Visual_Studio.htm
http://through-the-interface.typepad.com/through_the_interfa...
So it appears likely that Autodesk used Visual Studio to build AutoCAD.
I feel very Emily Littella-ish right now. "Never mind!"
I don't know if anyone ever read about OpenCASCADE. It's not (only) development tools stopping Linux CAD from advancing, when it comes to OpenCASCADE it's the license that's the problem right now. This may change in near future, and projects like FreeCAD who use OpenCASCADE may benefit.
However, I tried to look into how I - a non-programmer - can help FreeCAD, and it's indeed really hard given the heavy use of the C-language; but thank god there some Python. However, sadly I cannot become really involved as I'm way to busy typing comments at LXer. That's right, responding to news / comments instead of creating them.
However, I tried to look into how I - a non-programmer - can help FreeCAD, and it's indeed really hard given the heavy use of the C-language; but thank god there some Python. However, sadly I cannot become really involved as I'm way to busy typing comments at LXer. That's right, responding to news / comments instead of creating them.
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The way they killed Google, the iPod, and countless other technologies?