So Are You A Contributor?: Women's Contributions to Linux & Open Source Span Technology and Business

>> but FOSS was designed by and for men

How does one go about designing software for men??

> How does one go about designing software for men??

http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/download.php would be a good example.

@jdixon: So... you're saying "software for me" is software tha objectifies or demeans women. If I had said that on a tech forun I'd have had my head handed to me.

> you're saying "software for me" is software tha objectifies or demeans women.

I'm just saying that the software I gave as an example is software that was designed for men. You don't expect it to appeal to women do you?

@jdixon: No, I don't. It's a good example of a wider problem in the industry. While most men treat their female colleagues as professionals there is still a relatively small but ever present group of men in the field who have sexist attitudes. When they express those attitudes too many men who don't consider themselves sexist at all will merely laugh or at the very least will ignore the issue. They are, whether they realize it or not, part of the problem. They are enabling the very attitudes that make some workplaces and some projects hostile to women.

Women can't solve the problem. Some ignore it, some fight it, and some leave the field or choose never to enter in the first place. The solution has to come from men who simply decide not to tolerate inappropriate behavior from their male colleagues.

> It's a good example of a wider problem in the industry.

Exactly. Which is why I used it. There are lots of more subtle examples, but this one is rather obvious to anyone.

Quoting:http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/download.php would be a good example.

Eh, no. That's a terrible example. Yes, that's software designed for men but it has nothing to do with proving the point that FOSS is designed for (and by) men. Designing is something you do. Explicitly. The problem with FOSS and IT is not the explicit things. It's the implicit things that "happen" or "slip in".

It's not the design, it's the people!

Sander: You are correct that people are the problem, not code. However the app that jdixon linked amply illustrates the attitude that is so problematic and makes the FOSS community seem hostile to women. Also, as I said before, there are many men who wouldn't write something like that, who won't make sexist comments, who won't overtly be part of the problem, but will utterly fail to see why that app is wrong or else tell any woman who dares complain about it to be "thick skinned" or to ignore it. The enablers in the FOSS community are a huge problem as well.

Subtle is the word all right, and trying to communicate that to people who can't see beyond their own experiences is an uphill job. The Kathy Sierra deal is a great example-- all the harassment and idiotic comments she endured for months was no big deal, just ignore it, don't get so upset over dumb comments, blah blah. But when the death threats came that was finally over the magical line where even the most dismissive men started to take it seriously. Wooptedoo, thanks for nothing.

Most of the time it's not death threats or getting beat up. It's being treated as types-- we are Women and therefore categorized according to our value relative to men: potential playtoy, slut, mother, or not worth noticing. It's constant sexual pressure which isn't about sex, romance, or attraction-- it's a dominance game. It's all kinds of little daily crappy things that reinforce one big truth: that a majority of men still have the attitude that they have the god-given right to be bosses over women, and that we are put on this planet to take whatever they dish out. And yes, I mean majority.

I am old and mean and comfortable with getting in the faces of those who need it. I would prefer that people not be asshats in the first place. If I live to be a thousand maybe I will see that happen.

> ...but it has nothing to do with proving the point that FOSS is designed for (and by) men.

I disagree. It is an example of exactly that. In a system with women involved in the process, such a program would never have been developed, simply because those involved would have realized that it would offend a portion of the developers.

Note that I don't personally find the program offensive, and not all women do, but that's beside the point. I recognize that many women will.

> If I live to be a thousand maybe I will see that happen.

Not likely, TC. And I don't mean you living to a thousand. People haven't changed all that much in the past several thousand years, and there's no sign they will in the next thousand. Societies may change, but people are still people, and the same old problems simply take on new forms. :(

Quoting:In a system with women involved in the process, such a program would never have been developed, simply because those involved would have realized that it would offend a portion of the developers.

What system? Hotbabe is developed by a single programmer and hosted on a personal website. There's no community there. As Ken Starks has often pointed out, there is no single FOSS community. No single system. Just a large hodgepodge thousands of overlapping communities that surround the various projects.

Now, if hotbabe was developed in/by a community were women were also participating (e.g. by the Debian community for instance) then you would have a point. But this is a single application from a single developer with no community.

The app linked above (can't even say the name it's so tacky), was created for men (which of course is also going on the rather incorrect assumption that everyone is heterosexual).

What I was hinting at is that your operating system, mail client, web browser, solitaire game etc. are gender-neutral... so how can one comment that all this stuff was designed for men, even if they were designed by men.

That's it guys.... we're forking Firefox and making GUY BROWSER v1. :)

Boys will be boys.

What the heck does that even mean?

For the record, when I made my original comment, it was about the culture in which software is developed, not the output.

A computer doesn't care what gender you are....neither does a bathroom. Tear down the signs.

There aren't other people inside a computer. There are other people in a bathroom.

Then again, if that's the case, who am I talking to?

It's bad enough that I have to share bathrooms with half the population. Now you want to make me share with everyone. Darn bathrooms would be twice as crowded.

Quoting:It's bad enough that I have to share bathrooms with half the population.

Sharing is good; people share a lot these days. Music, movies; even their Windows worms!

If the one owning copyright to those worms joined MPAA and started making copyright-violation claims to the ones illegally downloading these worms, I'd sure they'd be rich!

Don't give them any ideas. The RIAA might try something like that as a way to enhance their revenues.