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Fedora 13 Xfce update
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Comments (15)
> Xfce is one heck of a window manager.
While I agree, I feel compelled to make one relatively negative comment. XFCE is only a great window manager in comparison to the competition, primarily Gnome and KDE. Compared to either of those two, it's like sliced bread compared to the week old unsliced variety. Measured on its own merits, without reference to its competition, it's really only a passably good software package. However, it largely does what it needs to do without getting in the way of the user. That's more than most software does. And of course, what makes good software is rather subjective, so YMMV.
I've never tried LXDE. From what I've heard, it gives XFCE a run for it's money.
While I agree, I feel compelled to make one relatively negative comment. XFCE is only a great window manager in comparison to the competition, primarily Gnome and KDE. Compared to either of those two, it's like sliced bread compared to the week old unsliced variety. Measured on its own merits, without reference to its competition, it's really only a passably good software package. However, it largely does what it needs to do without getting in the way of the user. That's more than most software does. And of course, what makes good software is rather subjective, so YMMV.
I've never tried LXDE. From what I've heard, it gives XFCE a run for it's money.
I'm currently very fond of LXDE + Sawfish WM, although I have toyed with ditching LXDE altogether and just running almost "bare". I say "almost" because I do want my Gkrellm panel, but so far I've been too lazy to script it all up.
> XFCE is only a great window manager in comparison to the competition, primarily Gnome and KDE. Compared to either of those two, it's like sliced bread compared to the week old unsliced variety.
LOL.......Oh well said, jdixon.......What you didn't say is what you personally use ? I have tried LXDE briefly, but didn't like it in preference to Xfce.........but your second point is very true: YMMV. You always use what suits your taste, and if you don't like it, you change. I am afraid I don't have the ability to run in command line like gus3, so a fast and simple window manager is my most appealing requirement.....Xfce seems excellent in comparison to either Gnome or KDE4. Gnome's not bad but didn't appeal.
LOL.......Oh well said, jdixon.......What you didn't say is what you personally use ? I have tried LXDE briefly, but didn't like it in preference to Xfce.........but your second point is very true: YMMV. You always use what suits your taste, and if you don't like it, you change. I am afraid I don't have the ability to run in command line like gus3, so a fast and simple window manager is my most appealing requirement.....Xfce seems excellent in comparison to either Gnome or KDE4. Gnome's not bad but didn't appeal.
@Ridcully:
Run Slackware, and you will, one way or another, learn the CLI.
"Slackware: giving the user credit, even when that's a bad thing to do."
/me ducks and runs, laughing all the way
Run Slackware, and you will, one way or another, learn the CLI.
"Slackware: giving the user credit, even when that's a bad thing to do."
/me ducks and runs, laughing all the way
Gnome/KDE=DE
LXDE/XFCE=WM
comparing them isnt comparing apples to apples, other than they all put pretty pictures on your screen.
comparing them isnt comparing apples to apples, other than they all put pretty pictures on your screen.
You are right in one sense "azerthoth", but I don't think you look at the whole picture in another sense. Certainly, if you want all the attributes that Gnome and KDE have in a full package, plus all the bells and whistles and environments, then by all means KDE and Gnome absolutely must be the winners over Xfce and LXDE, although Xfce can get pretty close if you take the time and effort......Xfce will run 3D effects if you really want it to, and you can add application software as much as you like.
However, suppose you only want to use KDE or Gnome for word processing, data entry, image manipulation, emails, browsing, viewing movies, Crossover Office, etc........Then you really are comparing apples with apples in the sense of what you want to do with the desktop when you bring Xfce and LXDE into the picture because they can do those tasks equally well, and usually much faster. Assuming that rather simplistic approach (and I stress that summary is exactly what I do with my computer) then Xfce (and probably LXDE - I don't know it as well) wins hands down on speed, etc. JDixon put it perfectly: YMMV. It really all depends on what you want to do with your desktop manager.......And as far as I am concerned, in this exercise, all these desktop managers are apples and the relevant equation is:
Gnome = KDE = Xfce = LXDE and are just application and data managers
provided we stick to the conditions of use that I am interested in.
However, suppose you only want to use KDE or Gnome for word processing, data entry, image manipulation, emails, browsing, viewing movies, Crossover Office, etc........Then you really are comparing apples with apples in the sense of what you want to do with the desktop when you bring Xfce and LXDE into the picture because they can do those tasks equally well, and usually much faster. Assuming that rather simplistic approach (and I stress that summary is exactly what I do with my computer) then Xfce (and probably LXDE - I don't know it as well) wins hands down on speed, etc. JDixon put it perfectly: YMMV. It really all depends on what you want to do with your desktop manager.......And as far as I am concerned, in this exercise, all these desktop managers are apples and the relevant equation is:
Gnome = KDE = Xfce = LXDE and are just application and data managers
provided we stick to the conditions of use that I am interested in.
> What you didn't say is what you personally use?
I have a fairly long history of noting I use XFCE, Ridcully.
> LXDE/XFCE=WM
As noted, I haven't tried LXDE. However, XFCE is far more than a WM.
I have a fairly long history of noting I use XFCE, Ridcully.
> LXDE/XFCE=WM
As noted, I haven't tried LXDE. However, XFCE is far more than a WM.
Quoting:LXDE/XFCE=WM
You're such a comedian, because here's what their own websites say:
"Xfce is a lightweight desktop environment for various *NIX systems." "The "Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment" is an extremely fast-performing and energy-saving desktop environment."
Blackbox, XMonad, WindowMaker and the like, that's what I call a Window Manager.
Like stated, you shouldn't only compare to KDE and Gnome.
My first choice is gnome, but my second is lxde, particularly the Mint implementation. I'm running it on an eight year old laptop (240 MB RAM), there's very little waiting even using OOo, and you don't give up much of anything in terms of convenience.
I haven't tried LXDE yet, but I've been very happily using Xfce since this past February. I find that it gets out of my way and lets me do what I want, instead of forcing me to learn what it wants to do.
The result is that I spend almost all of my time working in my chosen apps, instead of fooling with my desktop environment.
The result is that I spend almost all of my time working in my chosen apps, instead of fooling with my desktop environment.
@l bigg
I have yet to try the Mint implementation of lxde. I have several laptops that need to be deployed to our kids but all have between 256 and 512 of RAM. I've found while the lighter desktops indeed speed up the desktop stuff, it does little to make the larger apps run any faster, Is it different with the Mint distro?
Also, that light of RAM often causes sites such as Hulu and miniclip.com to bog or completely fail. What are your experiences there with that little RAM?
h
I have yet to try the Mint implementation of lxde. I have several laptops that need to be deployed to our kids but all have between 256 and 512 of RAM. I've found while the lighter desktops indeed speed up the desktop stuff, it does little to make the larger apps run any faster, Is it different with the Mint distro?
Also, that light of RAM often causes sites such as Hulu and miniclip.com to bog or completely fail. What are your experiences there with that little RAM?
h
@helios
I think OOo runs fine because they've stripped it down and there's not much other stuff running. If I had a half dozen other apps running OOo probably would run slowly. The other distros that work are AntiX and Vector Light. I tried many others first, but even Debian with XFCE and Slackware ran like Vista on a dual core, so it was a frustrating experience.
The video is sometimes not perfect, once in a while it can't keep up, but my son will watch YouTube and it works with a wired connection. Wireless is too slow.
I think OOo runs fine because they've stripped it down and there's not much other stuff running. If I had a half dozen other apps running OOo probably would run slowly. The other distros that work are AntiX and Vector Light. I tried many others first, but even Debian with XFCE and Slackware ran like Vista on a dual core, so it was a frustrating experience.
The video is sometimes not perfect, once in a while it can't keep up, but my son will watch YouTube and it works with a wired connection. Wireless is too slow.
I've been doing both Xfce and LXDE, since I know I'll have to give up KDE3 eventually.
Xfce reminds me of something for tinkering. Move things around, but not too many things.
LXDE reminds me of Gnome. There is far less available to tweak, stuff doesn't move around, but as CompBob points out, having less "desktop environment" to fiddle with means more time with the applications.
Then I switch to KDE4, to "remind myself" and see if I've grown out my revulsion, and discover that it's getting in my face again. Yuck. Go away. Give me back richness of applications and explicit functionality of the DE, rather than all this in my face stuff.
All That Said(tm, reg us pat off), I expect to continue to use the KDE applications, like Konqueror and Kmail, that I have been using. They're a bit different in v.4 compared to v3.5, but they are not impossible. I even found that the v.4 of K3b is rather good. Other than games and Kstars, I don't think I use any other KDE specific applications. Ok, Kedit.
Audacious works again in Debian Squeeze, which is the driving force behind my wish to upgrade.
Xfce reminds me of something for tinkering. Move things around, but not too many things.
LXDE reminds me of Gnome. There is far less available to tweak, stuff doesn't move around, but as CompBob points out, having less "desktop environment" to fiddle with means more time with the applications.
Then I switch to KDE4, to "remind myself" and see if I've grown out my revulsion, and discover that it's getting in my face again. Yuck. Go away. Give me back richness of applications and explicit functionality of the DE, rather than all this in my face stuff.
All That Said(tm, reg us pat off), I expect to continue to use the KDE applications, like Konqueror and Kmail, that I have been using. They're a bit different in v.4 compared to v3.5, but they are not impossible. I even found that the v.4 of K3b is rather good. Other than games and Kstars, I don't think I use any other KDE specific applications. Ok, Kedit.
Audacious works again in Debian Squeeze, which is the driving force behind my wish to upgrade.
I think most desktop environments work well with 512 MB of RAM or even 256 MB. You can run GNOME in 512 or 256.
When the whole things starts to bog down with 512 MB and break down with 256 MB is when you start using memory-hogging applications.
Unfortunately, "standard Web browser" is one of those apps. For a good browsing experience, even 512 MB is a bit uncomfortable at times. I like to have 1 GB if I can, but 512 MB is doable.
I don't find that the desktop environment makes all that much difference. Sure KDE is more CPU-intensive, but only with very low specs are GNOME vs. Xfce vs. LXDE vs. Fluxbox, etc. going to make much of a difference. And that all goes out the window when you launch Firefox.
For my really low-spec machines, I use the Opera Web browser to alleviate some of the pain. If they run on the given platform, Chromium or Midori might also help make a better experience. Of course Abiword instead of OO is a good way to go. I suppose things could change, but I'm connected to the Web often enough that I use Google Docs for just about everything that a text editor can't do.
To make a long post short: desktop environment = 20 percent of the problem, Web browser = 80 percent.
When the whole things starts to bog down with 512 MB and break down with 256 MB is when you start using memory-hogging applications.
Unfortunately, "standard Web browser" is one of those apps. For a good browsing experience, even 512 MB is a bit uncomfortable at times. I like to have 1 GB if I can, but 512 MB is doable.
I don't find that the desktop environment makes all that much difference. Sure KDE is more CPU-intensive, but only with very low specs are GNOME vs. Xfce vs. LXDE vs. Fluxbox, etc. going to make much of a difference. And that all goes out the window when you launch Firefox.
For my really low-spec machines, I use the Opera Web browser to alleviate some of the pain. If they run on the given platform, Chromium or Midori might also help make a better experience. Of course Abiword instead of OO is a good way to go. I suppose things could change, but I'm connected to the Web often enough that I use Google Docs for just about everything that a text editor can't do.
To make a long post short: desktop environment = 20 percent of the problem, Web browser = 80 percent.
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Certainly, Xfce is different, but I am looking forward very pleasurably to leaning what will be my new window manager whereas each time I approached KDE4, it was with fear, uncertainty and doubt (yep, FUD) as to what would happen this time. And believe me, I tried to "bash" KDE4 into submission.
On the other hand and right from the word "go", Xfce just ran and ran fast. The display is crystal clear, I have the same number of desktops and can alter that number; I can tweak the display in any way I like; it is blazingly fast; simply, stable, intuitive and I believe the next interation will allow icons and files on the desktop. In addition, I have read that it is a matter of a few additions and fiddles and I can have all the 3D desktop glitz that is supposed to make KDE4 so brilliant.....I don't need or use them in KDE3.5, so I think I might just give those additions a miss. I already have VLC installed and all the codecs and trialled some movies....no worries. Even a volume control placed on the panel now and full control over what is going on.....This is one lovely little window manager. I am running it on openSUSE 11.3 and so I can also install any software I like......and so KMail is now in place as an email client....standby for K3b, Wine, Crossover Office, etc. etc.........And considerable fun ~ and that is something I never could say for KDE4.
The only glitch so far has been the disappearance of the menu panel at the bottom of the screen.......however a quick search found the solution: Press Alt-F2 and then in the little pop-up window type "xfce4-panel" (without the inverted commas or quotes of course) and back comes the panel. The problem appears to be a small menu icon at the extreme right which is supposed to log you out, but also seems to despatch the menu panel as well as an undesired extra. I removed that little icon and from now on use the normal menu exit. And of course, I could STILL function completely even without the panel. A right click gave all the menu settings and options.
Xfce is one heck of a window manager. I am very impressed and strongly recommend it to anyone who wants speed, simplicity and stability. You may have to learn a few different ways of going about things, but then, it's like driving different cars: you get to go places, you just have to learn where a few of the auxillary controls have been differently placed.