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Some remarks on OpenOffice going to Apache

Posted by Steven_Rosenber on · 20 comments
Bob Suter.com; By Bob Sutor
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Earlier today, Oracle announced that they would be donating source code for OpenOffice to the Apache Software Foundation to start a new incubator project. It’s been an interesting road to get to this point over the decades, with well and not-so-well publicized twists and turns, but I’m glad we got here.

(Note: Bob Sutor is Vice President, Open Systems and Linux, IBM Software Group)

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Comments (20)

I hear and understand his message.

Nevertheless, I have to throw one huge spanner into the works: The Document Foundation and LibreOffice. Perhaps it is just me, but over the past few days I have given a lot of thought to Oracle's transfer of OpenOffice to Apache and each time I come back to the words: misused commercial power, pride, egoism, spite, vindictiveness, stupidity.

As I see it, Oracle totally mismanaged OpenOffice and by its actions created a situation where a previously thriving supportive community simply walked away. The result has exceeded all expectations with LO now in place to be the default office suite in virtually every distribution and improvements to the original code base coming thick and fast. I'll soon be shifting over from my dearly loved Sun OpenOffice - I simply would not allow an Oracle production onto my computer. I also understand that a number of slower Java processes have either been replaced or are in similar process. Oracle's last threads in LO are being cut.

So what need now for OpenOffice ? Perhaps as a niche "boutique" suite, because on reading Bob Sutor's article I couldn't help thinking that all those things he is excited about that OO can or will do, are already done by LO and will be done and improved on in the future.
Quoting:Over time, the code will be refactored and more uses will be found for it. Within a couple of years I think you’ll find greater use of ODF in other desktop applications, mobile apps, and even in the cloud. This won’t all come from the existing code base but rather also from new contributions from others working in the ASF.

ODF is not the only thing that OpenOffice supports: it’s got word processing, spreadsheet, presentation and other capabilities. Within Apache I think you’ll see advances in the user interface, functionality, performance, and reliability.
Sure, if Oracle was "hanged if it will ever allow itself to either cooperate with or allow benefit to flow" to those renegades that perpetrated the emergence of LO, then I suppose Apache might be a good home, but LO is now thriving and in place to be the default office suite for the Linux world, so a transfer to LO would have been far simpler and nicer. Like I said, "pride, spite, vindictiveness" seem appropriate.

I personally can't get excited about Bob's article or share his enthusiasm. Unless he can see something that cannot be duplicated by LO, then I fail to see how OO can survive. It's so sad really, but out of those ashes, LO has emerged and has become what OO should have been. My prediction is the opposite to Bob's: a slow but steady decline in use of OO, and it's eventual disappearance. Feel free to disagree because I cannot help feeling whimsically sad over what I see as the destruction of what was a flag-ship software package.

Update Edit: Something along the same concepts I describe above has just appeared in this article:

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3935136/Li...
I wrote this in their comments: --------- Any change can be done in LibreOffice.

Consider the massive complexity of this technology, and the amount of work to be done.

IBM could help the community by having the core OO developers work in LibreOffice. Note also that LibreOffice could use this help. The proprietary stuff (Notes, Symphony, etc.) doesn’t matter to "us", but why not build that on LO as well?

-Keith
Whatever. The suits had their chance and blew it. LibreOffice is the future. OOo is dead.
> ...then I fail to see how OO can survive.

It can survive as a code base, maintained by IBM, and freely scavenging from Libre Office, used to create Lotus Symphony. That's pretty much it. A fork of Libre Office maintained by the suits, for the suits. And not used by anyone outside the IBM corporate umbrella.
There is an enormous and (I think) rather good analysis of the licence details of the Oracle-Apache-IBM moves with OpenOffice here on Groklaw:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2011060314010442

The best bit I found was near the end where Bradley M. Kuhn gives his summation under the heading "Ditching Copyleft to Compete with a Fork?" This in turn was taken from Kuhn's article at:

http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/06/01/open-office.htm

It is interesting to see that Kuhn has the viewpoint that the transfer of the OO.o code to Apache is "the most insidious attack Oracle and IBM could make on the (LibreOffice) project". Kuhn makes what I think is a very sensible suggestion which is quite simple to implement and which allows LibreOffice to turn the tables and take advantage of the transfer of the whole OO code once it is placed under the Apache licence: LibreOffice simply takes that entire code base and re-licences it to LGPLv3-or-later.
@BernardSwiss.....Ta muchly......I shall leave my horrific error strictly alone since you were kind enough to put in the correction. Thanks again. :-)

Lotus Symphony

Ibm is using a lot of spin on this, but the story is very simple.

The coders wrote the code to a copyleft license.

Sun used copyright assignment. This meant they could change the license and IBM was able to re-use OO.o code in Lotus Symphony.

LibreOffice doesn't use copyright assignment, so IBM can't relicense the code and re-use it in Lotus Symphony.

If OO.o is relicensed under an Apache licence, IBM can use it in Lotus Symphony.

The rest is spin.
Exactly.

Of course, no one in their right mind would want to use Symphony, but that's beside the point.
After all the trouble I've had with MS Windows and MS Office, if Symphony were my only other option, I'd use it.
> ...if Symphony were my only other option, I'd use it.

Fortunately, it's not. :)
And comments by the IBM folks in more recent hours merely underscore this fact.

In this post by Rob Weir, recently linked to by LXer, their opinion of Libre Office comes across probably better than they intended, especially in the responses to the comments: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/apache-openoffice.html

This LXer thread makes similar points: http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/31812/

I have followed those discussions with great interest, and one point has become very clear to me: IBM still, STILL, does not understand FOSS.
After having read Rob Wier's comments and responses to comments, I'd say this is very much a suits friendly set up. Very clearly IBM's representative doesn't like The Document Foundation.

However I can't see how TDF and LibreOffice can lose, Software licensed under the ASF licensence can be used in LibreOffice, but not all software used by LibreOffice can be used by the ASF sponsored OpenOffice, or by the suits. Libre Office will continue to adavance faster.. unless a whole bunch of developers have a brain fart and even then, as far as I can tell it would have to be irriplaceable core people.

In the end I think this is all corporate shit stiring.
The real hope is that Apache doesn't allow this project through its incubator process.

The project (to have OO.o licensed under Apache) is divisive, only exists to further the interests of IBM, and isn't a real fit for the Apache community.

IBM and Oracle have leverage over Apache because of Java licensing issues, and IBM may have some leverage over Oracle for the same reasons, but if the LibreOffice community stands firm and Apache caves into the pressures of IBM and Oracle it sends out a negative message about Apache to other developer communities.

Why would Apache go through with this?

Why would Apache go through with this?

That's an easy one -- they simply prefer "open source", "permissive" licenses to GPL, "copyleft", "free software" licences. On principle.

@BernardSwiss: No, that's why they started it. They won't promote OOo from incubator to top-level project on that merit alone. If only IBM and Oracle peeps are working on OOo at AFS and the rest of the community is working on LO and TDF then I think OOo will die in the incubation process.
Quoting: IBM still, STILL, does not understand FOSS


I'll just make one observation here. My sentiments are with the copyleft side, but, I can see how, from IBM's viewpoint, they're preserving the status quo here, at some cost and effort at playing nice with open-source.

When Sun owned the OO codebase, the world could get at it under copyleft and, since there was copyright assignment on contributions, IBM could get at it under non-copyleft terms by shelling out cash for a private license. Thus they could keep their value-add code to themselves and everybody thought this was cool.

Oracle bought Sun and let OO drift long enough to freak out contributors because they were beneath their notice, because, according to Larry, he loves open source because he 'can just take it' and, as owner of the codebase, he had already taken it, paid for it in fact, so he owned it and could do whatever he wanted with it, including nothing. His yacht didn't need any play-nice; why should his OO codebase?

TDF forked it, setting up LO under copyleft and making a good go of it. Suddenly, because Larry dropped the ball, the main thrust of contributing developer activity was happening where IBM couldn't import the patches without tainting all their value-add with copyleft, which was not the deal under which the Lotus Symphony product was built. Now, if IBM bought the codebase from Larry, they'd be left with a wilted codebase, because the devs moved on, and a PR black eye for trying it... So (maybe with some substantial IBM dollars paid out to Larry) Oracle was persuaded to push the OO codebase over to Apache Foundation, with its permissive 'copy-what's-left' license, where it's still open-source so the devs can come and play, but where IBM can still skim like they have all along. Status-quo-antebellum restored.

Now the LO devs can still get at everything in the OO codebase, happily value-adding for all those funky copyleft types in Linuxland, and so can the business types, IBM in particular, without having to give away their value-add to competitors. IBM will probably send the cash that went to a private license before, into AF/OO as dev support, if not cash support, so their checkbook is probably doing some real play-nice. Now, if only they can get enough non-copyleft devs to put-up-or-shut-up... And maybe get those copyleft devs to just plain shut up; Weir just might be regretting the tone, at least, of his gasoline-on-a-fire inflammatory responses towards them in the comments stream of his blog. Darl McBride is the modern textbook example for sowing the wind like that, and what comes of it. (He actually got the world to cheer on the Nazgul!)

(afterthought:) Plus, OO is still poised to choke off MS Office from total market domination, thus destabilizing half of Microsoft's money supply (at least in the eyes of Wall Street), so even those copyleft types should be happy with IBM for it (foe of my foe and all that).

My opinions, of course.
@cr: I think you're hitting the nail square on the head. You should consider turning your last comment into a blog post or article of your own and join the fray.

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