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I've got some good news and some bad news
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Comments (75)
55 earlier comments in the full thread.
@MALsPa and others
The issue at stake here is that the Gnome developers have turned GNOME into something fundamentally different from what it was before. I'm all for moving forward and improving things.
However, Gnome 3 is *NOTHING* like Gnome 2. It is an entirely different piece of software. It is about as different from Gnome 2 as KDE.
So, what we have is a situation where a few high-ranking developers have hijacked a software eco-system and decided to totally rewrite it to be a completely different kettle of fish.
As far as I am concerned, that is sheer vandalism of the worst kind and worthy of the scorn being poured on it. If they wished to build a DE with an entirely different paradigm, they were perfectly entitled to do so. However, rather than doing that, they decided to railroad their ideas onto an existing product and in the process alienate a large swathe of people.
It's absolutely disgraceful.
The issue at stake here is that the Gnome developers have turned GNOME into something fundamentally different from what it was before. I'm all for moving forward and improving things.
However, Gnome 3 is *NOTHING* like Gnome 2. It is an entirely different piece of software. It is about as different from Gnome 2 as KDE.
So, what we have is a situation where a few high-ranking developers have hijacked a software eco-system and decided to totally rewrite it to be a completely different kettle of fish.
As far as I am concerned, that is sheer vandalism of the worst kind and worthy of the scorn being poured on it. If they wished to build a DE with an entirely different paradigm, they were perfectly entitled to do so. However, rather than doing that, they decided to railroad their ideas onto an existing product and in the process alienate a large swathe of people.
It's absolutely disgraceful.
> If they wished to build a DE with an entirely different paradigm, they were perfectly entitled to do so. However, rather than doing that, they decided to railroad their ideas onto an existing product and in the process alienate a large swathe of people.
Exactly as the KDE4 developers did. :(
Exactly as the KDE4 developers did. :(
> How could anything be simultaneously appropriate and bad?
It is appropriate, especially given the possible penalties, to pay your taxes each year. But can giving money to an outside agency which will undoubtedly use it for purposes you would never condone yourself be considered a good thing?
If you have cancer, chemotherapy may be both appropriate and called for, but few who have gone through it would call it good.
There are literally thousands of things in life which are necessary, appropriate, or called for which cannot be considered good in and of themselves.
It is appropriate, especially given the possible penalties, to pay your taxes each year. But can giving money to an outside agency which will undoubtedly use it for purposes you would never condone yourself be considered a good thing?
If you have cancer, chemotherapy may be both appropriate and called for, but few who have gone through it would call it good.
There are literally thousands of things in life which are necessary, appropriate, or called for which cannot be considered good in and of themselves.
I am somewhat amused to discover that my not seeing how continued angry yelling at developers who don't want to develop what the angry people WANT them to develop means I "don't understand free software".
Apparently, developers developing free software who want to go develop some other kind of free software instead don't understand free software either.
I kind of thought the "free" part applied to developers as well.
I most certainly do get it - someone had been developing free stuff that a bunch of people liked, and then they stopped, and the people that were getting the free stuff weren't getting it any more. It's like having someone stopping by to give a bunch of people a free hamburger every day for lunch, then one day they start showing up with a plate of rice and beans. "I've decided I want to give out vegetarian stuff now." "But..we don't LIKE vegetarian food! And you've been giving us free burgers so long we've been planning our budgets around having that free burger for lunch, not to mention my nutritional planning! Can't you just go back to burgers?" "Well, no, I'm doing vegetarian now, I think vegetarian is better for you. Maybe if you give it a try, you might come to like it. Otherwise, you may have to go find someone else who's interested in doing burgers." "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO US!! We made your free burgers POPULAR! You can't stop giving them too us now!"
It would (and indeed does) annoy me, too - having to choose between having only a couple more updates before my old-but-comfortable system stagnates due to lack of development or changing to something else is kind of a pain. I personally still kind of miss the more complete metadata display that KDE3 had when you displayed file properties, and I'm still not seeing a massive benefit to all this "semantic desktop" hype nor the seemingly kludgy "nepomuk" thing that still doesn't seem very useful. To quote skelband: "So, what we have is a situation where a few high-ranking developers have hijacked a software eco-system and decided to totally rewrite it to be a completely different kettle of fish." - arguably a fair (possibly with futile hyperbole, but still fair) description of both the KDE3-KDE4 and the Gnome2-Gnome3 changes.
None of this still explains what the continuing arguments are supposed to do to convince anyone to start providing the old free stuff that the angry users want again. It seems pretty clear that the best the Gnome3 or KDE4 developers could hope for if they tried is a smug "Yeah, you BETTER do what we say" with the occasional "Remember back when you were being an idiot?" tossed in for fun. I don't think it's going to motivate them to go back to Gnome2 or KDE3. What will? Or are there really many people that figure if they hurl invective at their chosen project (and sometimes anyone perceived as making excuses on their behalf, aparently) long enough that they'll eventually just do what they're told?
I'm not surprised that the trinity project doesn't seem to get much press - I haven't checked, but I imagine they don't have all that many people who want to commit to developing the same thing forever indefinitely (lest they incur the wrath of some Users(tm) for changing things in a possibly unpopular way). I'm guessing the Gnome2 fork that was recently announced may end up in the same state, but we'll see.
I'll put the question out here one more time: those of you infuriated by the Gnome and/or KDE developer's new plans - what are you going to DO to solve your problem? Or are you just infuriated because you don't see anything that you think you CAN do besides being publically angry?
Apparently, developers developing free software who want to go develop some other kind of free software instead don't understand free software either.
I kind of thought the "free" part applied to developers as well.
I most certainly do get it - someone had been developing free stuff that a bunch of people liked, and then they stopped, and the people that were getting the free stuff weren't getting it any more. It's like having someone stopping by to give a bunch of people a free hamburger every day for lunch, then one day they start showing up with a plate of rice and beans. "I've decided I want to give out vegetarian stuff now." "But..we don't LIKE vegetarian food! And you've been giving us free burgers so long we've been planning our budgets around having that free burger for lunch, not to mention my nutritional planning! Can't you just go back to burgers?" "Well, no, I'm doing vegetarian now, I think vegetarian is better for you. Maybe if you give it a try, you might come to like it. Otherwise, you may have to go find someone else who's interested in doing burgers." "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO US!! We made your free burgers POPULAR! You can't stop giving them too us now!"
It would (and indeed does) annoy me, too - having to choose between having only a couple more updates before my old-but-comfortable system stagnates due to lack of development or changing to something else is kind of a pain. I personally still kind of miss the more complete metadata display that KDE3 had when you displayed file properties, and I'm still not seeing a massive benefit to all this "semantic desktop" hype nor the seemingly kludgy "nepomuk" thing that still doesn't seem very useful. To quote skelband: "So, what we have is a situation where a few high-ranking developers have hijacked a software eco-system and decided to totally rewrite it to be a completely different kettle of fish." - arguably a fair (possibly with futile hyperbole, but still fair) description of both the KDE3-KDE4 and the Gnome2-Gnome3 changes.
None of this still explains what the continuing arguments are supposed to do to convince anyone to start providing the old free stuff that the angry users want again. It seems pretty clear that the best the Gnome3 or KDE4 developers could hope for if they tried is a smug "Yeah, you BETTER do what we say" with the occasional "Remember back when you were being an idiot?" tossed in for fun. I don't think it's going to motivate them to go back to Gnome2 or KDE3. What will? Or are there really many people that figure if they hurl invective at their chosen project (and sometimes anyone perceived as making excuses on their behalf, aparently) long enough that they'll eventually just do what they're told?
I'm not surprised that the trinity project doesn't seem to get much press - I haven't checked, but I imagine they don't have all that many people who want to commit to developing the same thing forever indefinitely (lest they incur the wrath of some Users(tm) for changing things in a possibly unpopular way). I'm guessing the Gnome2 fork that was recently announced may end up in the same state, but we'll see.
I'll put the question out here one more time: those of you infuriated by the Gnome and/or KDE developer's new plans - what are you going to DO to solve your problem? Or are you just infuriated because you don't see anything that you think you CAN do besides being publically angry?
DrDubious -
No, the fact that you don't understand free software means you don't understand free software.
The free in free software is about freedom, not about price. Any adult understanding of freedom, realizes that freedom includes notions of responsibility and respect for the freedom of others.
No, the fact that you don't understand free software means you don't understand free software.
The free in free software is about freedom, not about price. Any adult understanding of freedom, realizes that freedom includes notions of responsibility and respect for the freedom of others.
DrDubious, you're right that being mean to other people is wrong. Every other point you raise has been discussed and answered to death. Your biggest mistake is to place a money value above all other considerations, that when users don't pay money then they have no rights. I guess people don't read stuff, like what Skelband said and I quoted:
Free software is not some trivial thing that doesn't matter. Users have every right to hold developers accountable. Especially devs who seem incapable of learning from recent history.
Quoting: if you contribute work for a software eco-system like KDE or GNOME, you also take on a mantle of social responsibility. What you do affects thousands, maybe millions of people. That is not something you do lightly.
Free software is not some trivial thing that doesn't matter. Users have every right to hold developers accountable. Especially devs who seem incapable of learning from recent history.
> None of this still explains what the continuing arguments are supposed to do to convince anyone...
Personally, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. But the KDE4 developers (and now apparently the Gnome3 developers) did not take the needs or desires of the existing users into to account, and then when those users complained told them they were the problem, that there was nothing wrong with the software. As long as people keep trying to excuse that or pretend it didn't happen, I'm going to keep pointing it out. Yeah, I may get tired of it eventually, but...
> None of this still explains what the continuing arguments are supposed to do to convince anyone to start providing the old free stuff that the angry users want again.
Nothing anyone can say or do is going to convince the KDE4 developers to start providing KDE3 again. But then nothing ever was going to. That decision had already been made when they started KDE4.
The Gnome team hasn't stated when they'll stop supporting Gnome2 yet. We'll have to wait and see on that.
> Or are there really many people that figure if they hurl invective at their chosen project (and sometimes anyone perceived as making excuses on their behalf, apparently) long enough that they'll eventually just do what they're told?
I've never hurled invective. I've merely pointed out, and continue to point out, that the KDE4 devs betrayed their existing user base.
Do what they're told? I've never told them what to do. And frankly, who cares what they do? They're irrelevant. Their own actions have made them so. They have no interest in supporting actual users, so why would any user in their right mind take any interest in what they do? They've finally succeeding in making Linux running their environment what Microsoft always called it: A toy OS which no one can count on for getting real work done. Fortunately, Linux isn't dependent on their environment.
> ...those of you infuriated by the Gnome and/or KDE developer's new plans - what are you going to DO to solve your problem?
I'm not infuriated by their plans. I'm only upset that they claimed users who were only trying to use their systems were the problem rather than the software they produced. I know many of those users, some personally and the rest virtually, and I know they weren't the problem. The software was.
As to what I'm going to do? I'll do what I was already doing: use XFCE. The few KDE apps I used are replaceable. I don't need KDE4 or Gnome. If XFCE goes away, there are other options. And if worst comes to worst, I could always use Windows if I had to.
Personally, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. But the KDE4 developers (and now apparently the Gnome3 developers) did not take the needs or desires of the existing users into to account, and then when those users complained told them they were the problem, that there was nothing wrong with the software. As long as people keep trying to excuse that or pretend it didn't happen, I'm going to keep pointing it out. Yeah, I may get tired of it eventually, but...
> None of this still explains what the continuing arguments are supposed to do to convince anyone to start providing the old free stuff that the angry users want again.
Nothing anyone can say or do is going to convince the KDE4 developers to start providing KDE3 again. But then nothing ever was going to. That decision had already been made when they started KDE4.
The Gnome team hasn't stated when they'll stop supporting Gnome2 yet. We'll have to wait and see on that.
> Or are there really many people that figure if they hurl invective at their chosen project (and sometimes anyone perceived as making excuses on their behalf, apparently) long enough that they'll eventually just do what they're told?
I've never hurled invective. I've merely pointed out, and continue to point out, that the KDE4 devs betrayed their existing user base.
Do what they're told? I've never told them what to do. And frankly, who cares what they do? They're irrelevant. Their own actions have made them so. They have no interest in supporting actual users, so why would any user in their right mind take any interest in what they do? They've finally succeeding in making Linux running their environment what Microsoft always called it: A toy OS which no one can count on for getting real work done. Fortunately, Linux isn't dependent on their environment.
> ...those of you infuriated by the Gnome and/or KDE developer's new plans - what are you going to DO to solve your problem?
I'm not infuriated by their plans. I'm only upset that they claimed users who were only trying to use their systems were the problem rather than the software they produced. I know many of those users, some personally and the rest virtually, and I know they weren't the problem. The software was.
As to what I'm going to do? I'll do what I was already doing: use XFCE. The few KDE apps I used are replaceable. I don't need KDE4 or Gnome. If XFCE goes away, there are other options. And if worst comes to worst, I could always use Windows if I had to.
@Dr Dubious: "I'll put the question out here one more time: those of you infuriated by the Gnome and/or KDE developer's new plans - what are you going to DO to solve your problem? Or are you just infuriated because you don't see anything that you think you CAN do besides being publically angry?"
Well let me toss that right back you and ask, "What can ordinary Gnome users do?"
There's no point telling them that they should try something else. What if something else won't do? What if someone's 80-year old granny has been using Gnome for a couple of years? Who is going to tell her that her entire Linux world is about to fall apart and there is nothing she can do about it?
There is no point telling them that if they don't like it, they should get involved with the project and instigate change from the inside. Nobody is listening, at least not unless you are part of the "inner circle" of developers that do get listened to.
There's no point telling them that they should just stick with what they have, because their entire Linux eco-system will stagnate.
So what's left? Only anger, disbelief and resentment and you can honestly say that you are surprised? Current Gnome users don't have a voice and feel impotent against these cloistered people.
And let's face it. Gnome users ARE important, they are probably the most important aspect of Gnome. If it weren't for the users, what is the whole point of the exercise anyway?
Well let me toss that right back you and ask, "What can ordinary Gnome users do?"
There's no point telling them that they should try something else. What if something else won't do? What if someone's 80-year old granny has been using Gnome for a couple of years? Who is going to tell her that her entire Linux world is about to fall apart and there is nothing she can do about it?
There is no point telling them that if they don't like it, they should get involved with the project and instigate change from the inside. Nobody is listening, at least not unless you are part of the "inner circle" of developers that do get listened to.
There's no point telling them that they should just stick with what they have, because their entire Linux eco-system will stagnate.
So what's left? Only anger, disbelief and resentment and you can honestly say that you are surprised? Current Gnome users don't have a voice and feel impotent against these cloistered people.
And let's face it. Gnome users ARE important, they are probably the most important aspect of Gnome. If it weren't for the users, what is the whole point of the exercise anyway?
It's not all bad news of course.
The GIMP developers, although they are few, have listened to public opinion and we now have a single window mode option. That's how free software is supposed to work.
Blender, another great free software project listens to users all the time and they now have a fantastic product that is getting better all the time. When you listen to users, you build up an enormous body of supporters and contributors that will sing your praises to the rooftops.
That's how it is supposed to work.
The GIMP developers, although they are few, have listened to public opinion and we now have a single window mode option. That's how free software is supposed to work.
Blender, another great free software project listens to users all the time and they now have a fantastic product that is getting better all the time. When you listen to users, you build up an enormous body of supporters and contributors that will sing your praises to the rooftops.
That's how it is supposed to work.
> When you listen to users, you build up an enormous body of supporters and contributors that will sing your praises to the rooftops.
Yep. And when you don't, you don't. Instead you lose supporters and contributors and get bad press. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Yep. And when you don't, you don't. Instead you lose supporters and contributors and get bad press. Funny how that works, isn't it?
@skelband -
Shame on you!
Your thoughtless mentioning of projects that are working the right way can only serve to make the KDE and GNOME developers look bad by comparison.
Do NOT mention well-run projects that create great output by incorporating the input of their user base.
Got that?
Shame on you!
Your thoughtless mentioning of projects that are working the right way can only serve to make the KDE and GNOME developers look bad by comparison.
Do NOT mention well-run projects that create great output by incorporating the input of their user base.
Got that?
That is an interesting point actually.
Blender just recently had a total makeover. The UI has changed out of all proportion. The new UI has had wondrous praise heaped upon it. Users of 2.49 had a lot of work to migrate to the new UI. Some of the functionality in 2.49 has not yet made it to the 2.5 release set.
Strangely though, I've heard only praise for this achievement.
What was different? The discussions about the new UI were endless. There were mock-ups of what it should look like. The new UI was focussed NOT on departing in a totally different direction, but bringing much-needed order to the chaos that had gradually accumulated. The changes were focussed on one area, that of rationalising what needed rationalising.
I reckon the Gnome developers would have had a much better time of it if they had just phased their development a little better and had more focus:
1) Sort out the underlying problems in the unseen infrastructure. These problems are often trotted out as the excuse for the whole enterprise. Sometimes, this is necessary and I have no beef with that as a concept. Port the current desktop to incorporate the new infrastructural changes. It's not as much fun as designing a new UI, but they had to do it anyway right?
Then, and only then,
2) Develop an additional shell to be offered as an option as well as the traditional desktop. People are free to try it and feedback views etc.
If they had taken this longer term view, I believe that the whole enterprise would have been much more up-beat.
Blender just recently had a total makeover. The UI has changed out of all proportion. The new UI has had wondrous praise heaped upon it. Users of 2.49 had a lot of work to migrate to the new UI. Some of the functionality in 2.49 has not yet made it to the 2.5 release set.
Strangely though, I've heard only praise for this achievement.
What was different? The discussions about the new UI were endless. There were mock-ups of what it should look like. The new UI was focussed NOT on departing in a totally different direction, but bringing much-needed order to the chaos that had gradually accumulated. The changes were focussed on one area, that of rationalising what needed rationalising.
I reckon the Gnome developers would have had a much better time of it if they had just phased their development a little better and had more focus:
1) Sort out the underlying problems in the unseen infrastructure. These problems are often trotted out as the excuse for the whole enterprise. Sometimes, this is necessary and I have no beef with that as a concept. Port the current desktop to incorporate the new infrastructural changes. It's not as much fun as designing a new UI, but they had to do it anyway right?
Then, and only then,
2) Develop an additional shell to be offered as an option as well as the traditional desktop. People are free to try it and feedback views etc.
If they had taken this longer term view, I believe that the whole enterprise would have been much more up-beat.
>If they had taken this longer term view, I believe that the whole enterprise would have been much more up-beat.
Bingo. Not to mention professional and respectful.
Ingo Molnar's comments about trying to ape the Apple UI without implementing the Apple development process come to mind.
Bingo. Not to mention professional and respectful.
Ingo Molnar's comments about trying to ape the Apple UI without implementing the Apple development process come to mind.
Imagine the GCC devs someday decide to bring a 5.0 release changing/dropping most compiler options, dropping support for most non-x86 platforms, making it binary and source incompatible with every previous release *and* simultaneously dropping support for previous 4.x releases. All this will be, of course, because the devs have concluded that gcc has become "too large and unwieldy" with so many "useless" options that a complete rewrite is the best option.
The similarity of this scenario with KDE4/GNOME3 has its shortcomings (e.g. fortunately we have more choice in DEs that gcc), but it gives some idea of what the existing KDE/GNOME users have been up against. Ah, and to be on par, GCC devs will have to shout away all users who complain...
Edit: Decade old articles on software rewrites and UIs (that I am sure many here would have seen but many developers seem to forget again and again): http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html , http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000057....
The similarity of this scenario with KDE4/GNOME3 has its shortcomings (e.g. fortunately we have more choice in DEs that gcc), but it gives some idea of what the existing KDE/GNOME users have been up against. Ah, and to be on par, GCC devs will have to shout away all users who complain...
Edit: Decade old articles on software rewrites and UIs (that I am sure many here would have seen but many developers seem to forget again and again): http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html , http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000057....
@tuxchick and @jdixon,
Double++ to both of you...I think you both are spot on!!
> Yep. And when you don't, you don't. Instead you lose supporters and contributors and get bad press. Funny how that works, isn't it?
So true. A commentator who I haven't YET seen in this thread basically wrote on a previous posting that if you don't like a particular desktop environment, be it KDE4/GNOME3 or whatever, then YOU JUST SHOULDN'T USE IT!! (my own shouting here)
Therefore, by this latter commentator's reckoning and those of many of the opinions expressed here, we can expect to see that those distros becoming increasingly popular are those which either a) use default desktop environments _OTHER THAN_ KDE4/GNOME3 or else b) make it ridiculously easy to _SWITCH AWAY_ from these particular desktop environments. I wouldn't even be too surprised if upcoming distro reviews _BOLDLY EXCLAIM_ that a particular distro is completely unburdened by KDE4/GNOME3 baggage!!
2c
Double++ to both of you...I think you both are spot on!!
> Yep. And when you don't, you don't. Instead you lose supporters and contributors and get bad press. Funny how that works, isn't it?
So true. A commentator who I haven't YET seen in this thread basically wrote on a previous posting that if you don't like a particular desktop environment, be it KDE4/GNOME3 or whatever, then YOU JUST SHOULDN'T USE IT!! (my own shouting here)
Therefore, by this latter commentator's reckoning and those of many of the opinions expressed here, we can expect to see that those distros becoming increasingly popular are those which either a) use default desktop environments _OTHER THAN_ KDE4/GNOME3 or else b) make it ridiculously easy to _SWITCH AWAY_ from these particular desktop environments. I wouldn't even be too surprised if upcoming distro reviews _BOLDLY EXCLAIM_ that a particular distro is completely unburdened by KDE4/GNOME3 baggage!!
2c
Quoting:A commentator who I haven't YET seen in this thread basically wrote on a previous posting that if you don't like a particular desktop environment, be it KDE4/GNOME3 or whatever, then YOU JUST SHOULDN'T USE IT!! (my own shouting here)...
hmm, may be busy using his/her favorite DE instead of wasting time on an endless argument!?
Any ways, that sounds like a good solution, doesn't it?
Quoting:I wouldn't even be too surprised if upcoming distro reviews _BOLDLY EXCLAIM_ that a particular distro is completely unburdened by KDE4/GNOME3 baggage!!Although not particularly "boldly exclaimed" as such, here are a pair of fairly-recent distro releases that predominantly incorporate LXDE:
1. Linux Mint 11 LXDE. Positive review just posted to LXer as 'Linux Mint 11 LXDE review' via http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/154996/index.html
2. Salix OS 13.37 "LXDE" edition. Positive review posted to LXer within last few days as 'A Xubuntu Fanboy Moves to SalixOS' via http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/154907/index.html
Although it certainly would not be the strongest correlation regarding LXDE's relative popularity compared with other DEs, one will note in the DistroWatch 7-day Page Hit Ranking found at http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=1 that the Linux Mint and Salix OS websites are among the top increasingly-visited distro websites over the last week. It has been during the last week or so that better known writers such as Byfield have reviewed the recent KDE4 and Gnome3 developments and analyzed end-user reactions to these.
Is the sudden surge in the popularity of the aforementioned LXDE distros in the face of end-users' reactions to KDE4 and Gnome3 merely coincidence ?? Perhaps not......
I am the author of article #2 above, "A Xubuntu Fanboy Moves to SalixOS." I'm sorry to report that LXDE positively sucked on SalixOS and I quickly switched to Xfce. I love LXDE's file manager, however, and retain it.
I wanted to revisit LXDE since it had been a long time since I tried it. But too little has changed. And even with only 512 RAM and an older Celeron processor, I find very little difference in performance between LXDE and Xfce on that machine.
I wanted to revisit LXDE since it had been a long time since I tried it. But too little has changed. And even with only 512 RAM and an older Celeron processor, I find very little difference in performance between LXDE and Xfce on that machine.
I think some developers got tricked by all the nut jobs saying, "See Linux with its 1995 user interface? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!! You people suck!"
So off they go trying to make a new GUI thinking, "We'll show you all! We can change and make a new GUI! Take that!!!"
It's like watching a bad horror movie, "Don't go into that room...no, NOOOO!!"
So off they go trying to make a new GUI thinking, "We'll show you all! We can change and make a new GUI! Take that!!!"
It's like watching a bad horror movie, "Don't go into that room...no, NOOOO!!"
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Well, POV may come into play.
Prison is clearly a bad thing for convicted felons, yet fully appropriate.
A youtube video portraying your boss as a talking weasel would be highly inappropriate and yet --- good, great even.