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Pardus Kurumsal 2 for the Second Time
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Comments (87)
67 earlier comments in the full thread.
@tc: opinion on Sylpheed / Claws?
cr, I used Claws for about a year and liked it. It's clumsier to create filters, and it does not separate identities from mail accounts. KMail keeps identities separate, so you can use any identity with any account by picking one from a drop-down menu. Kmail also has an option to 'keep replies inside folder' that Claws does not have. I may still go back to Claws one of these days.
Considering SMTP email is positively ancient, and was used on Unix systems for decades before it ever came to MS systems, it's really shameful that Linux email systems are so far behind and so unreliable. Personally, I just use Gmail because I don't have time to mess around with something that's broken.
Does Kmail do conversation grouping the way Gmail does? This is honestly the best new feature in email I've seen since, well, since I started using email back around 1992. The only problem with Gmail's implementation is that it's buggy and doesn't have any manual override ability; it frequently doesn't put replies with their original messages, and it doesn't let me break apart messages into separate conversations (such as when I get several automated emails (receipts) from the same place but want to tag them differently). And oh, the tagging thing is the other great feature it has. I have mine set up to work like nested folders, but there's frequently emails (or conversations) where multiple tags apply, so not being confined to having to put them in only one folder is really helpful.
Does Kmail do conversation grouping the way Gmail does? This is honestly the best new feature in email I've seen since, well, since I started using email back around 1992. The only problem with Gmail's implementation is that it's buggy and doesn't have any manual override ability; it frequently doesn't put replies with their original messages, and it doesn't let me break apart messages into separate conversations (such as when I get several automated emails (receipts) from the same place but want to tag them differently). And oh, the tagging thing is the other great feature it has. I have mine set up to work like nested folders, but there's frequently emails (or conversations) where multiple tags apply, so not being confined to having to put them in only one folder is really helpful.
Quoting:Does Kmail do ...
The whole idea behind using a DB to store e-mails is to be able to do all sorts of things a DB enables you to do. Adding modules to do grouping, Semantic search, and all sorts of such nice features is a matter of adding tables, fields and code.
The problem is, they need to get the darn basics working first.
This seems to be a recurring problem in FOSS-land these days. It used to be they had a "stable" track, and a "testing" or "experimental" track, and people who needed stable software to do their real work with would stick with the former and not have to deal with all the bugs and problems seen with brand-new experimental software. Now, maybe because they think too few people were testing out their experimental releases, they want to force everyone to use the latest stuff, no matter how broken it is.
Thanks Tuxchick......I rather suspected that particular version was the case. It was the brick wall that I also hit, and again, like you, I am compelled to ask: What are these fools of developers playing at ? Why deliberately break, sabotage and turn a very useful, practical and well understood piece of software into a complete shambles and at the same time destroy their user base ? I simply do not understand their motives. Surely it would have been possible for them to set up a system where the standard KMail files were copied by the Akonadi "mess" and transferred over to form the database for other packages that actually needed the said database......But no, "everything", KMail included, has to run from this database, and in so doing the lot has been broken.
I'll second the motion for a special hell for these particular developers. I strongly resent the fact that they have deliberately destroyed a software package that not only satisfies my needs, but also will become essential in a month or two for network communications in a new piece of contract work that is flying my way. I am NOT a happy little vegemite. Lend me a pitchfork someone, I need to go prod some bits of roasting developers.
PS...I hope you weren't offended at my attempts at harmless fun. Couldn't resist it.
I'll second the motion for a special hell for these particular developers. I strongly resent the fact that they have deliberately destroyed a software package that not only satisfies my needs, but also will become essential in a month or two for network communications in a new piece of contract work that is flying my way. I am NOT a happy little vegemite. Lend me a pitchfork someone, I need to go prod some bits of roasting developers.
PS...I hope you weren't offended at my attempts at harmless fun. Couldn't resist it.
Quoting:This seems to be a recurring problem in FOSS-land these days....
I am not too sure about that, FOSS developers mostly adopted the RERO "Release early, Release Often"
But in specific cases, like the Kernel & Debian, had to make sure their software releases were stable and reliable since they were providing business level software. Commercial entities like Red Hat, Suse/Novell, and to a certain level Canonical, they had to make sure their products had to be reliable and dependable otherwise they would lose their customers' business.
On the other hand, looking at it in a positive respective, my personal take is different than yours. I believe that The recent flux in FOSS software was caused by the need to take FOSS software to a higher level of competitions with commercial software. FOSS software was getting stagnant and wasn't making the desired fast proliferation in the market, MS, using its monopoly power, was able to stop Linux pre-installed Netbooks in their track. Something had to be done about that. With tablet hardware was starting to come out and becoming the latest trend, the developers foresaw its potential and had to make a move as fast a possible. That really changed the whole game of competition. Given their limited resources, they didn't have the luxury to work on a "stable" track, and a "testing" or "experimental" track. And consequently, we had to suffer through this period of FOSS software flux.
@Fettoosh.........I understand that, but the problem is then that your files are submerged in what appears to be an SQL database filing system with no way of getting at individual messages using a file manager. Admittedly, I don't do that very often, but I have been known to require that facility. The point I continue to make is that the "modus operandi" of these utter twits of developers appears to have been to trash the lot and destroy an understood and well operating structure for something that not only doesn't work, you have no idea as to how it was supposed to work even if it did.
In KMail 4.4, setting up an incoming mail account required you to put settings on a **single** user name selection panel for password, mail server location and simple additionals such as whether it was POP or encrypted etc. But when setting up your incoming mail account in KMail 4.7 you are faced with a series of three, count them THREE, alternative "things" (some with glowing green radio buttons on them) which all have links to file structures and mail locations within your client, and you had no idea what the wretched things did, which of them had to be filled out, which could be ignored, etc. etc.. Simplicity was hurled out for complexity.
I even went to that wonderful situation of RTFM......and that brings me to the next bit. Just try reading the flamin' manual when it doesn't make sense, does not seem to apply to what you have in front of you and is so garbled that eventually you throw your hands up in despair and refuse to go any further. Like Tuxchick, I have absolutely had it with this insane madness of increasing complexity while destroying a useful, well understood software package - that previously worked.
@Fettoosh again....the above comment was in reply to your comment about two or three above which included the quotation, not the one directly above this response......you got it in before I could get mine onto the site.
In KMail 4.4, setting up an incoming mail account required you to put settings on a **single** user name selection panel for password, mail server location and simple additionals such as whether it was POP or encrypted etc. But when setting up your incoming mail account in KMail 4.7 you are faced with a series of three, count them THREE, alternative "things" (some with glowing green radio buttons on them) which all have links to file structures and mail locations within your client, and you had no idea what the wretched things did, which of them had to be filled out, which could be ignored, etc. etc.. Simplicity was hurled out for complexity.
I even went to that wonderful situation of RTFM......and that brings me to the next bit. Just try reading the flamin' manual when it doesn't make sense, does not seem to apply to what you have in front of you and is so garbled that eventually you throw your hands up in despair and refuse to go any further. Like Tuxchick, I have absolutely had it with this insane madness of increasing complexity while destroying a useful, well understood software package - that previously worked.
@Fettoosh again....the above comment was in reply to your comment about two or three above which included the quotation, not the one directly above this response......you got it in before I could get mine onto the site.
Quoting:I simply do not understand their motives.
@Ridcully,
I don't think they had any devious motives, they simply made a big mistake.
Quoting:Surely it would have been possible for them to set up a system where the standard KMail files were copied by the Akonadi "mess" and transferred over to form the database for other packages that actually needed the said database......
That or something similar would have been a much better approach. The bottom line is, they made a big mistake and they should have kept KMail-1 alone as long as necessary while working on and until KMail-2 is ready.
@Fettoosh......I suppose I can accept your hypothesis.....It just helped to be able to get rid of some of the utter frustration with the mess that has been produced. And thanks for agreeing with my suggested approach. One would think that the KDE4 developers in general would have learnt from the original dreadful appearance of the KDE4 series a couple of years or so ago; but this KMail mess seems to be playing to the same role model with a single software package. What is it now: The only thing men learn from history is that men never learn from history.
@Fettoosh: By making users suffer through any kind of flux, they're basically saying that "if you use FOSS, you're going to be constantly suffering with broken experimental software, any time we wish to try out some new pet theory". Users who actually need to get work done are going to avoid it like the plague. Users trying to get work done don't care about tablet marketshare, they care about getting their work done on their business PC (or home PC they're using for business work). No one does work on tablets; they're toys, meant for media consumption only.
@Fettoosh, the problem with your hypothesis is that stable, functioning FOSS software will always compete against commercial software better than unstable, broken FOSS software.
@Khamul......I am not sure I could put it better myself. It's what I was trying to get across in an earlier post about my needs for an operating KMail package becoming critical in a couple of months. My impression is always that tablets and smartphones are designed for data consumers, not data creators....The classic keyboard and mouse PC (whether desktop or laptop) remains as far as I am concerned, the only valid method of data creation. Destroy that user base with defective software and you have no data for the tablets and smartphones to "feed on"...rather a self-destructive methodology.
Quoting: the problem with your hypothesis is ...
@CB
I wasn't, or at least, I didn't intended to making any hypothesis or defending which model competes better against commercial software. All what I was saying is that FOSS development cycle mostly follows RERO. That makes FOSS more dynamic and progresses much faster and better than commercial software.
I agree with the developers that something had to be done, but I don't agree with the approach as I stated in the case of KMail.
Having stable and reliable software as demonstrated by the kernel and Debian models is still the best way to compete against commercial software.
Roses have thorns. I guess the loosely connected development cycle and the freedom that comes with volunteering do have their thorns.
@Fettoosh, I called your post a "hypothesis," because, unless you prove that your opinions are facts, they're only hypotheses, just like mine and everyone else's here.
The people who work for Canonical and Red Hat aren't volunteers, and many other distros have paid employees as well. They're supposed to be making releases of stable software, even when the upstream developers go off on tangents. Instead, they haven't bothered; they just package up the latest-and-greatest (and full of bugs, or worse, terrible UI design) and throw it out there. The only exception to this, and this is a very recent exception, is Linux Mint, where they've seen that users are angry about the garbage being fed to them by the Gnome and Unity devs, and are working to provide their own modified environment that suits the users who actually need to get work done.
Quoting:Users trying to get work done don't care about tablet marketshare, they care about getting their work done on their business PC (or home PC they're using for business work). No one does work on tablets; they're toys, meant for media consumption only.
@Khamul,
First off, tablets are not toys and lots of work can be done on them, especially when used for data consumption. I am not saying tablets are going to replace desktops. What I am saying is that they do have their areas of usage. All along, I always said tablets are supplementary to desktops.
Just remember that there are far too many more people who use computers simply to read e-mail, browse the Internet, chat, view pictures & videos, analyze data, compose a small documents, maintain a spreadsheet, etc....
Such and many more trivial tasks don't need a full fledged desktop computer. A tablet would be more practical, convenient and more than enough.
Just remember that there are far too many more people who use computers simply to read e-mail, browse the Internet, chat, view pictures & videos, analyze data, compose a small documents, maintain a spreadsheet, etc.... Such and many more trivial tasks don't need a full fledged desktop computer. A tablet would be more practical, convenient and more than enough.
You've got to be kidding. You can't read email, analyze data, compose documents, or maintain a spreadsheet on a tablet. There's no keyboard! You can't do these tasks without a keyboard. Well, you can if you want to screw around with the cr@ppy touchscreen "keyboard", but unless all you're doing is writing a line or two of text, it isn't worth the aggravation. Tablets are consumption-only devices: you can use them to play simple games, watch videos or movies, and maybe surf the web (as long as it doesn't involve a lot of typing), and that's about it. What I'm doing right now, typing this message, would be mostly impossible on a tablet. I've used smartphones for tying before, and it's a giant PITA; I end up just not bothering, and going and playing a game instead.
You've got to be kidding. You can't read email, analyze data, compose documents, or maintain a spreadsheet on a tablet. There's no keyboard! You can't do these tasks without a keyboard. Well, you can if you want to screw around with the cr@ppy touchscreen "keyboard", but unless all you're doing is writing a line or two of text, it isn't worth the aggravation. Tablets are consumption-only devices: you can use them to play simple games, watch videos or movies, and maybe surf the web (as long as it doesn't involve a lot of typing), and that's about it. What I'm doing right now, typing this message, would be mostly impossible on a tablet. I've used smartphones for tying before, and it's a giant PITA; I end up just not bothering, and going and playing a game instead.
Quoting: No one does work on tablets; they're toys, meant for media consumption only.
Quoting: There's no keyboard!
My Asus Transformer would disagree with you on both counts, and I think some number of people with bluetooth keyboards are close enough to count.
I picked up my Transformer to do -- work!. I have a client who uses software of mine (web based) via an android tablet and a significant part of the market is heading that way ( I have software to support field technicians).
Not only are tablets a handy way to do form-driven work, but I use mine for many of the tasks I had used my netbook for earlier. Most of my development work takes place on my workstation at home, so opening an ssh shell into that box lets me do quite a bit (and render in the browser on the tablet -- which is what I'm optimizing for right now anyway). I can also deploy to my production servers which are in -- ya know, I don't even know any more. But -- an ssh shell, and I'm there.
The silly thing even came with an app called Polaris Office which lets me do rudimentary office work, though I still retreat to another machine for heavier lifting.
The point is not that a tablet can do everything well that a pc can do. It can't, but neither can a pc do everything well that a tablet can. A tablet can, however, be a serious computing device for serious work.
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Kmail spoiled me with mass useful features, for example easy creation of complex filters, automatic mailing list recognition, multiple identities, customized settings for each and every folder in your Inbox like reply-to, identity, and different colors for read and unread messages. It handles multiple accounts, encryption keys, and spam filtering better than any other. Having a central PIM data store makes sense. Now if it all worked reliably, and if it wasn't dog-slow over an SSH tunnel, life would be good. (No I don't want IMAP. Been there. Done that.) I figure by the time the kinks are worked out and it's pretty decent they'll chuck it and skitter off to The Next Cool Thing.