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SOS: Save Our Slackware?
The last few days have seen a depressing flurry of forum topics and blog posts about the supposed death of Slackware, evidenced (primarily) by the fact that Slackware.com has been down quite a bit recently (indeed, it is down at the time of this writing). For any other modern distribution, downtime on the site might not mean anything other than some routine maintenance or a glitch, but then, Slackware isn’t most modern Linux distributions. |
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Comments (34)
14 earlier comments in the full thread.
@tc, WTH? One asked a question, the other supplied a quick answer and a link. The store's landing page is linked no fewer than 4 times from the Slackware home page, which is currently up anyway.
And if some parties are interested in making purchases or donations to help bring the Slackware home page back, then yes, they will find a way to the store. Said interested parties, being dedicated Slackware users, probably already know that sed 's/www/store' is the way to do it.
And if some parties are interested in making purchases or donations to help bring the Slackware home page back, then yes, they will find a way to the store. Said interested parties, being dedicated Slackware users, probably already know that sed 's/www/store' is the way to do it.
@tuxchick the link I posted was for these quotes from Eric Hameleers:
"The slackware.com server is down. This is a technical malfunction. It costs money to do something about that. Something will be done about that server, but if it takes a while, it is most likely caused by prioritizing and finances. Slackware was without its own web server for a long time in the past. And still active are http://ftp.slackware.com and connie.slackware.com, so what's the big deal?"
"There is no reason to doubt the availability, stability and long term viability of Slackware, the distribution. It has not been a one-man show for some time, the development effort is substantial and plainly visible in the ChangeLog, and there are no plans to switch to another development model or even ditch the distribution."
"Slackware will not die because of financial issues, it will die if all of its users leave."
Those quotes don't indicate financial jeopardy to me. Pat has made his living off of sales and subscriptions from the Slackware store for many years so if those sales and subscriptions dry up then he would not be able to make his living directly from Slackware, but that has been true all along.
To your point how is a person find the Slackware store or ftp server, yeah Google would work, so might Distrowatch. I mean it is not like there are tons of new Linux novices searching for slackware.com, I can readily admit that even being a big fan. The days of Slackware being the first distro someone stumbles upon to start their linux journey have long since gone. The more likely new user of Slackware is a Linux user who has been using another distro and wants to try something more involved. This person is going to be no stranger to Google and other methods, and well making users "work for it" seems to be the type of user targeted anyway. All of that being said would I like to see slackware.com up everyday, of course. I just don't believe there is any real evidence of newfound financial jeopardy to Slackware that hasn't existed throughout it's history. Maybe I am wrong and you are right, but I sure hope not.
Read the whole comment"The slackware.com server is down. This is a technical malfunction. It costs money to do something about that. Something will be done about that server, but if it takes a while, it is most likely caused by prioritizing and finances. Slackware was without its own web server for a long time in the past. And still active are http://ftp.slackware.com and connie.slackware.com, so what's the big deal?"
"There is no reason to doubt the availability, stability and long term viability of Slackware, the distribution. It has not been a one-man show for some time, the development effort is substantial and plainly visible in the ChangeLog, and there are no plans to switch to another development model or even ditch the distribution."
"Slackware will not die because of financial issues, it will die if all of its users leave."
Those quotes don't indicate financial jeopardy to me. Pat has made his living off of sales and subscriptions from the Slackware store for many years so if those sales and subscriptions dry up then he would not be able to make his living directly from Slackware, but that has been true all along.
To your point how is a person find the Slackware store or ftp server, yeah Google would work, so might Distrowatch. I mean it is not like there are tons of new Linux novices searching for slackware.com, I can readily admit that even being a big fan. The days of Slackware being the first distro someone stumbles upon to start their linux journey have long since gone. The more likely new user of Slackware is a Linux user who has been using another distro and wants to try something more involved. This person is going to be no stranger to Google and other methods, and well making users "work for it" seems to be the type of user targeted anyway. All of that being said would I like to see slackware.com up everyday, of course. I just don't believe there is any real evidence of newfound financial jeopardy to Slackware that hasn't existed throughout it's history. Maybe I am wrong and you are right, but I sure hope not.
The majority of folk today looking for Slackware are not going to be linux newbies and if they can't type into google "slackware store" or goto http://ftp.slackware.com then really Slackware is not going to be for them.
Note I said today because back in the day when I was a linux newbie, Slackware was my first distro but things are a lot different now.
I don't believe all this hullaballoo over them dying, so they lost their website through either server failure or non-payment of bills, big deal, happened to me twice this year due to lack of funds.
Sh*t happens and im sure they are trying to deal with it, doesn't matter if its not very "professional" with their net front gone if you dont have the cash then thats it , whats he gonna do rob a bank? I know im not going to feed my kid baked beans just to keep my web front going, for professional appearances sake.
Some people really need a priority re-adjustment if they think a web front is the be all and end all, especially in the current economic climate.
Hopefully Patrick and crew will sort things out, I would also donate to them but like them I just don't have the cash so all I can do is wish them luck.
Note I said today because back in the day when I was a linux newbie, Slackware was my first distro but things are a lot different now.
I don't believe all this hullaballoo over them dying, so they lost their website through either server failure or non-payment of bills, big deal, happened to me twice this year due to lack of funds.
Sh*t happens and im sure they are trying to deal with it, doesn't matter if its not very "professional" with their net front gone if you dont have the cash then thats it , whats he gonna do rob a bank? I know im not going to feed my kid baked beans just to keep my web front going, for professional appearances sake.
Some people really need a priority re-adjustment if they think a web front is the be all and end all, especially in the current economic climate.
Hopefully Patrick and crew will sort things out, I would also donate to them but like them I just don't have the cash so all I can do is wish them luck.
Oh you funny people, such stereotyped cliquey thinking, if newbs can't find Slackware why then Slackware doesn't need them. And anyway it doesn't need users or money, except when it does. As long as it's just a hobby distro no worries.
I was a newb when I first used slackware in 1997.
486, 75 MHz, 8 Meg Ram, 20 MB HD, floppy drive and about 21 3.5'' floppies.
There were more floppies available, but those were the ones I needed. I can't remember If I started with version 3 or 4, but it was ELF, so it was after version 2.
I started in December 1996, but got my first fully loaded system in early February 1997.
486, 75 MHz, 8 Meg Ram, 20 MB HD, floppy drive and about 21 3.5'' floppies.
There were more floppies available, but those were the ones I needed. I can't remember If I started with version 3 or 4, but it was ELF, so it was after version 2.
I started in December 1996, but got my first fully loaded system in early February 1997.
> ...if newbs can't find Slackware why then Slackware doesn't need them.
TC, how many newbies do you think even know about Slackware any more? It's not a newbie oriented distro, and isn't marketed as such (to the extent that it's marketed at all).
TC, how many newbies do you think even know about Slackware any more? It's not a newbie oriented distro, and isn't marketed as such (to the extent that it's marketed at all).
Installing Slackware is not appreciably more difficult than any other Linux distribution, especially if you have it on a DVD and don't need to burn multiple discs.
> Installing Slackware is not appreciably more difficult than any other Linux distribution...
Assuming you understand partitions or have an already partitioned hard drive, that's true.
Assuming you understand partitions or have an already partitioned hard drive, that's true.
Quoting:The LQ forums are actually really nice and the people in the Slackware community are very helpful. I would say in general they are sensitive to the common perception that their beloved distro is antiquated, archaic, or no longer relevant.My experience with the Slackware community as a whole matches what you say. My experience with LQ over the past four years or so is just the opposite. I would rate that segment of the community, in terms of wagon circling and hostility to any sort of criticism of their beloved distro, as the second worst I've seen in the Linux community. Fortunately there is a huge gap between first and second, but it's still bad and definitely puts me off.
Worse to me was the, to quote a sensible LQ poster, "harsh" reaction by Eric Hameleers (a/k/a Alien Bob). I expect that from fans. I've never seen the like from a core developer of ANY distro.
My personal take on Slackware is that it is most certainly antiquated, archaic and Byzantine compared to most other distros, including ones aimed at seasoned users. As jdixon often points out, an experienced user can add to Slackware and turn it into anything they want, including something that resembles other, more modern distros in features. My honest question is this: why bother? There are distros that have forked Slackware or are derived from Slackware that have done that already and done it brilliantly. Does the extra work have any real benefit to me? Honestly, I don't see that it does. Of course, most of those distros wouldn't exist without Slackware. Consequently Slackware is still VERY relevant to Linux today.
Regarding the financial future of Slackware: I see it the same way I see any small, community built distro with a small team and no sponsorship. I consider all such distros risky. When CentOS was having problems a year or so ago, Joe Brockmeier wrote that nobody every gets fired for choosing IBM but you might get fired for implementing CentOS. (I'm paraphrasing but I think I'm pretty darned close to his words.) The same can and should apply for Slackware. That is not a reflection on the quality of the distro, which is excellent in many ways, or on the talent and ability of the developers, which isn't in question as far as I am concerned.
> My personal take on Slackware is that it is most certainly antiquated, archaic and Byzantine compared to most other distros,
Antiquated and archaic are probably reasonable descriptions. I disagree with the Byzantine. I find other distributions far more Byzantine than Slackware. Compared to even Debian, Slackware is easy to understand and work with.
But then, as I've noted before, ease of use is subjective. :)
> The same can and should apply for Slackware.
For corporate use, sure. I doubt most home users care.
Antiquated and archaic are probably reasonable descriptions. I disagree with the Byzantine. I find other distributions far more Byzantine than Slackware. Compared to even Debian, Slackware is easy to understand and work with.
But then, as I've noted before, ease of use is subjective. :)
> The same can and should apply for Slackware.
For corporate use, sure. I doubt most home users care.
Quoting:an experienced user can add to Slackware and turn it into anything they want, including something that resembles other, more modern distros in features. My honest question is this: why bother?Because that's how I take ownership of it. It's customized the way I want, with packages that I both built "by hand" and built from SlackBuilds.org with equal comfort. I use Postfix to manage my mail queue, downloaded from a dropbox via Fetchmail. I run a "Byzantine" window manager called Sawfish, the likes of which I can neither download nor build on any Ubuntu LTS (yet).
(Before you point it out: Sawfish in the latest Ubuntu LTS isn't current, and the current Sawfish won't build in the latest released LTS. That'll probably change with 12.04.)
I've been a distro-hopper. I've tried dependency-tracking. I've tried "build it all from source." The fragility is the same in both: pray, pray, and pray some more that the people managing the dependencies don't screw it up, or you could end up with a system that can no longer download and install updates. "Byzantine"? The only system that I could recover after an update trashed things was Slackware (ran out of disk space while updating glibc. Bad! Bad!). Fedora, Red Hat, Ubuntu, and Gentoo left things so demented, my only option was to wipe and re-install. If/when I want that, I'll run Windows.
The only dependency-based system I'd trust is Debian, thanks to their long road of experience (just weeks fewer than Slackware) and the policies borne from those hard knocks. And right now, I am trusting it, on a small, credit-card sized scale, running it on my new Raspberry Pi. But that isn't a fresh install, it's an image developed specifically for the RPi.
OTOH, I'd really like to put Slackware on the RPi, just to show that (1) it's possible, and (2) that I can. I'd even like to do a HOWTO on it. I know, bragging rights don't pay bills, but that's not what I'm looking for with my computer work. Those days are done.
I disagree with Byzantine as well, that is actually how I feel when I use Debian or RHEL distros in comparison to Slackware, Arch, or FreeBSD.
As for Slackware in the corporate setting, sure. You aren't going to run Slackware at a Fortune 500 company as you would be on the hook for support etc, but that is true of basically any distro outside of RHEL, SLES, and Oracle. Corporate environments want the SLA's with vendors to go with it unless they have a massive in-house IT support model.
As for the harsh treatment from Eric Hameleers, well I don't think it is the harshest reaction I have seen by a figure in the FOSS world. I think Linus still takes top honors there, and reading some of the Debian developer blogs you can find all sorts of, um, passionate people. I think it is sort of the nature of FOSS sometimes. When someone puts lots of heart and soul and a lot of time into a project, usually with no monetary reward to go with it, it is a passion project. Sometimes that passion can surface in a harsh manner. I am not defending Eric's comments, it is just an observation on why these types of responses are often seen (at least seen by me that is) throughout different FOSS projects.
As for Slackware in the corporate setting, sure. You aren't going to run Slackware at a Fortune 500 company as you would be on the hook for support etc, but that is true of basically any distro outside of RHEL, SLES, and Oracle. Corporate environments want the SLA's with vendors to go with it unless they have a massive in-house IT support model.
As for the harsh treatment from Eric Hameleers, well I don't think it is the harshest reaction I have seen by a figure in the FOSS world. I think Linus still takes top honors there, and reading some of the Debian developer blogs you can find all sorts of, um, passionate people. I think it is sort of the nature of FOSS sometimes. When someone puts lots of heart and soul and a lot of time into a project, usually with no monetary reward to go with it, it is a passion project. Sometimes that passion can surface in a harsh manner. I am not defending Eric's comments, it is just an observation on why these types of responses are often seen (at least seen by me that is) throughout different FOSS projects.
> My personal take on Slackware is that it is most certainly antiquated, archaic and Byzantine compared to most other distros,
I plan to play with Slackware a bit, soon --I have to build a box for it first, but fortunately I have enough spare parts to do so. I nearly started with Slack instead of Debian, but Apt had a reputation for actually working as described, reliably -- that was too hard for a newbie to resist.
From what I have seen though, Slackware is not so much "antiquated, archaic and Byzantine" as it is consciously "simple by design", eschewing "refinements" that add complexity for relatively little gain -- especially if such refinements involving altering upstream components.
This stands in distinct opposition to the kind of unending tinkering that makes debs and rpms from one distro incompatible with other distros supposedly using the same system. Imagine if LEGO blocks worked like that. Or automobile parts (...ummm... wait a minute...).
It reminds me of some of those kitchen utensils and appliances that supposedly make life easier. Often a well equipped kitchen counter is cluttered with "labour-saving devices" that leave scant room for the cook to work, and require so much work to set-up for use, adjust for the current task, dismantle for cleaning, and clean, care for and maintain (safely), that they end up gathering dust while the cook "makes do" with utensils that have been around for centuries, that are readily available in the drawers and cupboards of almost any kitchen.
(OK, OK -- aside from the whole SysV versus BSD init thing -- which might be a bit antiquated, but it still works as reliably as a bicycle)
Read the whole commentI plan to play with Slackware a bit, soon --I have to build a box for it first, but fortunately I have enough spare parts to do so. I nearly started with Slack instead of Debian, but Apt had a reputation for actually working as described, reliably -- that was too hard for a newbie to resist.
From what I have seen though, Slackware is not so much "antiquated, archaic and Byzantine" as it is consciously "simple by design", eschewing "refinements" that add complexity for relatively little gain -- especially if such refinements involving altering upstream components.
This stands in distinct opposition to the kind of unending tinkering that makes debs and rpms from one distro incompatible with other distros supposedly using the same system. Imagine if LEGO blocks worked like that. Or automobile parts (...ummm... wait a minute...).
It reminds me of some of those kitchen utensils and appliances that supposedly make life easier. Often a well equipped kitchen counter is cluttered with "labour-saving devices" that leave scant room for the cook to work, and require so much work to set-up for use, adjust for the current task, dismantle for cleaning, and clean, care for and maintain (safely), that they end up gathering dust while the cook "makes do" with utensils that have been around for centuries, that are readily available in the drawers and cupboards of almost any kitchen.
(OK, OK -- aside from the whole SysV versus BSD init thing -- which might be a bit antiquated, but it still works as reliably as a bicycle)
@gus3
This is distinctly off-topic, but I'm feeling lazy so I'll just ask you.
I really liked Sawfish, when it was the Debian default -- is it compatible with compiz?
This is distinctly off-topic, but I'm feeling lazy so I'll just ask you.
I really liked Sawfish, when it was the Debian default -- is it compatible with compiz?
I've never had a problem with a dependency system. Every problem I have run into can be traced to poor packaging or to poor repository management. I have never had a problem with Red Hat or its clones, or, for that matter, with SalixOS, a Slackware derivative.
Dependency checking is a basic function. Without it installing unfamiliar software is a time consuming mess. I wouldn't consider a distro without it. I also have yet to run into a Red Hat/Fedora system I couldn't recover. Ubuntu, yeah, it's a buggy mess. Life is way too short for Gentoo.
Dependency checking is a basic function. Without it installing unfamiliar software is a time consuming mess. I wouldn't consider a distro without it. I also have yet to run into a Red Hat/Fedora system I couldn't recover. Ubuntu, yeah, it's a buggy mess. Life is way too short for Gentoo.
@slacker_mike, let's not forget Richard Stallman.
@Bernard_Swiss, no, it isn't. It's on the to-do list, but AFAIK it isn't a high-priority thing.
@Bernard_Swiss, no, it isn't. It's on the to-do list, but AFAIK it isn't a high-priority thing.
Well, since nobody else said it:
OMG! LXer.com went offline! They must be having I55UE56!!!!1111one
OMG! LXer.com went offline! They must be having I55UE56!!!!1111one
Slack is back!
http://www.slackware.com/
All hail the Church of the Subgenius:
"The central belief in the church is the pursuit of Slack, which generally stands for the sense of freedom, independence, and original thinking that comes when you stop worrying about personal goals. In essence, Slack is about finding satisfaction with what you have and who you are, as opposed for searching for satisfaction in accomplishment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius#Slack
http://www.slackware.com/
All hail the Church of the Subgenius:
"The central belief in the church is the pursuit of Slack, which generally stands for the sense of freedom, independence, and original thinking that comes when you stop worrying about personal goals. In essence, Slack is about finding satisfaction with what you have and who you are, as opposed for searching for satisfaction in accomplishment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius#Slack
@gus3
I was going to say it, but I got distracted by a sawfish.
I was going to say it, but I got distracted by a sawfish.
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You know, TC, there's a reason it's named ftp . slackware . com.(spaces added to prevent the auto html effect). Pretty much the same reason the web server is www .slackware. com.
Now, the store I'll grant, as there is no standardized naming convention for a store front.