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Linux Mint 13 Cinnamon: Not Quite There Yet
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Comments (28)
8 earlier comments in the full thread.
The problem isn't reviewing live-distros, per se, but refusing to recognize or acknowledge the inherent limitations this approach puts on what can be legitimately concluded, nor including any caveats to that effect.
Quoting:The problem isn't reviewing live-distros, per se, but refusing to recognize or acknowledge the inherent limitations this approach puts on what can be legitimately concluded, nor including any caveats to that effect.Do you think I don't know the caveats? Silly you! But will it make sense to put these caveats in each and every post? I don't think so. If you do, please feel free to become an editor of my posts: I'll allow you to add these caveats to my text before they are published. Will you take this task? If not, just shut up!
Come on DarkDuck show a bit more professionalism.
Linux fora are notorious for sharp and nasty comments. Just look at Linus's comments. You need to take on board legitimate criticism and develop a thick skin for that which you think unfair.
It is your responsibility to include caveats in a review.
Linux fora are notorious for sharp and nasty comments. Just look at Linus's comments. You need to take on board legitimate criticism and develop a thick skin for that which you think unfair.
It is your responsibility to include caveats in a review.
I used to just click on the title to visit a page. With this attitude from DarkDuck, I developed a new habit of checking the source and "Posted by" before I click.
> I developed a new habit of checking the source and "Posted by" before I click.
Ken Hess did that for me. His articles seem to have been less frequent of late though. And I'll take a darkduck article over a Ken Hess article any day.
Ken Hess did that for me. His articles seem to have been less frequent of late though. And I'll take a darkduck article over a Ken Hess article any day.
Actually I prefer Ken Hess posts, true some of his stuff was really out there in some cases an entirely separate reality but they often made me giggle anyways.
Come back Ken all is forgiven, well at least by me as DD make's you look good.
Come back Ken all is forgiven, well at least by me as DD make's you look good.
Quoting:Come back Ken all is forgiven, well at least by me as DD make's you look good.As someone who often crossed swords with Ken Hess I must say, Koriel, I agree.
+1 Koriel
~Jeff
~Jeff
I learned a long time ago that if you want to be universally loved, writing on the Internet isn't for you.
There are all kinds of distro reviews out there. Ironically -- in the light of this thread anyway -- I remember seeing a lot more "I ran the live CD for a half-hour and this is what I found out" articles a couple of years ago. I wrote a few of them myself. You do get look, if not feel. You get basic hardware compatibility and can test a few apps. It's not like torture-testing a distribution by actually using it for a month. (I should probably write a formal Debian Wheezy review, since I've been beating on it for a month+ now. Fortunately or not, I'm doing the same with Windows 7.)
Everybody expects certain things out of a review. I write what I can. If I make it too hard, often I'll never do it. In my particular circumstance, I need to be excited about it, or it'll just sit. It's better to write what you're compelled to write. Especially if you're doing it for free.
You really have to plan for a long review. My seven-part DragonFlyBSD review http://blogs.dailynews.com/click/2012/04/the-longest-dragonf... took well over a month (while I was doing many, many other things; I have a day job, you know) of constant installs and testing, notetaking and then writing. I still installed on only a single computer. It's better to have multiple machines at your disposal and install to all of them. Even so, a single-machine review remains valuable.
I agree that a live CD-only review isn't terribly valuable in comparison to an actual installation. Consider it a review "genre," if you will.
There are all kinds of distro reviews out there. Ironically -- in the light of this thread anyway -- I remember seeing a lot more "I ran the live CD for a half-hour and this is what I found out" articles a couple of years ago. I wrote a few of them myself. You do get look, if not feel. You get basic hardware compatibility and can test a few apps. It's not like torture-testing a distribution by actually using it for a month. (I should probably write a formal Debian Wheezy review, since I've been beating on it for a month+ now. Fortunately or not, I'm doing the same with Windows 7.)
Everybody expects certain things out of a review. I write what I can. If I make it too hard, often I'll never do it. In my particular circumstance, I need to be excited about it, or it'll just sit. It's better to write what you're compelled to write. Especially if you're doing it for free.
You really have to plan for a long review. My seven-part DragonFlyBSD review http://blogs.dailynews.com/click/2012/04/the-longest-dragonf... took well over a month (while I was doing many, many other things; I have a day job, you know) of constant installs and testing, notetaking and then writing. I still installed on only a single computer. It's better to have multiple machines at your disposal and install to all of them. Even so, a single-machine review remains valuable.
I agree that a live CD-only review isn't terribly valuable in comparison to an actual installation. Consider it a review "genre," if you will.
Quoting:I learned a long time ago that if you want to be universally loved, writing on the Internet isn't for you.You are a master of understatement. I published something about a government agency considering Linux on the desktop (they already have thin clients) and I received more derision and outright insults than Carter has little pills. Perhaps one day I'll share the four comments I didn't let through moderation. They are pretty amazing. The funny thing is that those who are sure I'm a clueless fan are ignoring the fact that I am sharing my real life work experience. Oh, and I landed the contract with that government agency.
If you criticize a distro the fans of that distro will often we ready with pitchforks, tar and feathers, or worse.
Quoting:I remember seeing a lot more "I ran the live CD for a half-hour and this is what I found out" articles a couple of years ago. I wrote a few of them myself. You do get look, if not feel. You get basic hardware compatibility and can test a few apps.I think you know that you are a writer I greatly respect and your opinion carries a lot of weight with me. Having said that I find little or no value in such articles. In addition, the DarkDuck reviews don't focus on what separates distros or what's important to most people in a distro. It isn't just that he did a live CD review (which renders it almost valueless in my book) but he focused on things like the color of an icon or the theme used, things which even most beginners with Linux can change readily.
(Edited due to massive cut-and-paste fail on my part.)
I guess I should clarify that it's pretty clear that many readers don't like live-CD reviews of installable distros and would rather see a full review that includes an install (or installs plural) and some substantial time actually running the system.
I have certainly taken this criticism to heart and have both done fewer of these kinds of pieces and been conscious not to label them "review," as that can be misleading.
H#ll, if it was traffic I was after, I'd only write about Ubuntu ...
I have certainly taken this criticism to heart and have both done fewer of these kinds of pieces and been conscious not to label them "review," as that can be misleading.
H#ll, if it was traffic I was after, I'd only write about Ubuntu ...
@Steven, my articles about Raspbian have more than doubled my daily traffic.
There used to be a time when readers nearly had the technical level of online HOWTOs. Nowadays authors of online HOWTOs seem to have the technical level of their readers :o)
I'm still trying to figure this one out.
@montezuma - "Come on DarkDuck show a bit more professionalism. Linux fora are notorious for sharp and nasty comments. Just look at Linus's comments. You need to take on board legitimate criticism and develop a thick skin for that which you think unfair."
======================================
DarkDuck is a Russian living in London, trying to write reviews in English. You should try writing reviews in Russian and see how well that works for you. He's a young and very talented ERP systems programmer -- exactly the type of person that Linux distro communities should be trying to appeal to.
Spewing vitriol at young programmers, like @cmost with the multiple "moron" blasts, is complete nonsense in any setting.
Just because the "dear and glorious" leader Torvalds gladly tells volunteer coders that their work is "crap" and that they should "just kill themselves" does not mean that sane, reasonable people should adopt his attitude toward others. At the end of the day, he's just a skilled hacker with a potty-mouth. Mint fan-boys and fan-girls should learn to make adult, reasoned arguments as to why their distro of choice is worth a closer look, rather than resorting to juvenile name-calling. Episodes like this make it FAR less likely that I'll give Mint a spin in the future - as these comments are probably indicative of the type of "support" I should expect on the Mint forums.
For years now, I've been used to the openSUSE forums, which are almost always a place for civil discussion - except on those few days when Linus dropped by to flame everyone in sight and recommend mass-suicide because he couldn't figure out how to connect his daughter's laptop to her middle school's networked printer.
======================================
DarkDuck is a Russian living in London, trying to write reviews in English. You should try writing reviews in Russian and see how well that works for you. He's a young and very talented ERP systems programmer -- exactly the type of person that Linux distro communities should be trying to appeal to.
Spewing vitriol at young programmers, like @cmost with the multiple "moron" blasts, is complete nonsense in any setting.
Just because the "dear and glorious" leader Torvalds gladly tells volunteer coders that their work is "crap" and that they should "just kill themselves" does not mean that sane, reasonable people should adopt his attitude toward others. At the end of the day, he's just a skilled hacker with a potty-mouth. Mint fan-boys and fan-girls should learn to make adult, reasoned arguments as to why their distro of choice is worth a closer look, rather than resorting to juvenile name-calling. Episodes like this make it FAR less likely that I'll give Mint a spin in the future - as these comments are probably indicative of the type of "support" I should expect on the Mint forums.
For years now, I've been used to the openSUSE forums, which are almost always a place for civil discussion - except on those few days when Linus dropped by to flame everyone in sight and recommend mass-suicide because he couldn't figure out how to connect his daughter's laptop to her middle school's networked printer.
@andyprough
The reality is that most internet exchanges can have a sharp edge to them. Is that optimal? No it isn't but it is the reality. I think anyone engaging in an online community needs to take that reality into account and stop taking things so personally. Sometimes the criticism is warranted sometimes its just some dude blowing smoke out of their rear end. You need to just discard the bs and look for valid feedback (which does exist).
As to being a Mint fanboy... LOLOLOLOL
Incidentally the mint online fora are pretty friendly and helpful overall. I've never been abused.
BTW how come you know so much about DarkDuck? Are you a friend of his or are you actually Darkduck in disguise ;-)
The reality is that most internet exchanges can have a sharp edge to them. Is that optimal? No it isn't but it is the reality. I think anyone engaging in an online community needs to take that reality into account and stop taking things so personally. Sometimes the criticism is warranted sometimes its just some dude blowing smoke out of their rear end. You need to just discard the bs and look for valid feedback (which does exist).
As to being a Mint fanboy... LOLOLOLOL
Incidentally the mint online fora are pretty friendly and helpful overall. I've never been abused.
BTW how come you know so much about DarkDuck? Are you a friend of his or are you actually Darkduck in disguise ;-)
@andyprough
Well said. Abusive and hateful posts have no place on LXer.
Well said. Abusive and hateful posts have no place on LXer.
@montezuma - I read his "About Me" page on his blog, and I've followed his blog for a long time. He's a good guy - we should really try to support people from other parts of the world that are trying to communicate about Linux in our language.
@andyprough
I think it is perfectly valid to criticize a superficial/limited blog post. After all the blogs could be criticized for precisely the same thing: Being overly negative.
The point is whether the criticism (of the review or the original review itself) has any validity or not.
I think it is perfectly valid to criticize a superficial/limited blog post. After all the blogs could be criticized for precisely the same thing: Being overly negative.
The point is whether the criticism (of the review or the original review itself) has any validity or not.
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Yes we have and multiple times too. With so many different Distros, it would be very tedious to install each release of each Distro on hard disk just to have a quick and brief look at each one. Using a Live USB is good enough for that, but no way sufficient for good detailed evaluation.