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The Lucrative Linux Job Offer I Turned Down
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Comments (67)
Night Of The Living Caitlyns
Heh-heh:) Our favourite Slackware reviewer:)
@ kikinovak:
My good grief! I expected that kind of ugliness from someone like notbob, but what - is it international?
My good grief! I expected that kind of ugliness from someone like notbob, but what - is it international?
I felt a disturbance in the force.
@kikinovak
You are an embarrassment.
You are an embarrassment.
That's right kikinovak. Ignoring the skipping record of "I ... am ... a ... victim. Look ... at ... what ... I ... put ... up ... with" is just embarrassing. You MUST pay attention to and agree with every squeeky wheel to be a good PC member of LXer.
@DrGeoffrey
Je t'embrasse aussi. (Translated by Bing)
Je t'embrasse aussi. (Translated by Bing)
Browser72: I am NOT looking for sympathy. I am not a victim here. I'm not unemployed so, fortunately, I have choices. However, an IT department with 400 people and no women proves without any doubt that there is a huge problem at the company in terms of hiring and retaining women even if there is no discriminatory hiring policy at the moment. Note that I NEVER claimed there was such a policy. Add that the job has been open for months, they called me again on Thursday to try and get me to change my mind (the event which prompted this article), and that the position pays above market wages for it's location and yet it's still vacant. What does that tell you? It tells me there is a problem in management or corporate culture that drives qualified applicants away. In other words, there is a real problem with the company even if your own prejudices blind you to it.
The other comments, well... not worth replying to.
The other comments, well... not worth replying to.
Caitlyn, I am uncomfortable at any time when I comment on a story/thread like this, but I'd like to ask a serious question. Do you suppose that the firm could have recognised the problem and might actually be trying to moderate its gender policy and asked you because you were a very high profile person who could help them change the culture at the organisation ? That would possibly explain the forceful comment by the manager, purely because he was determined to make the new situation work with the idea of getting more women onto staff ?
I'm possibly wrong, but it would be nice to think that the above was the underlying situation.
I'm possibly wrong, but it would be nice to think that the above was the underlying situation.
The lady doth protest too much.
@ridcully
....then he should have explained himself properly. If one can not explain him/herself properly as a leader of 400 people, one shouldn't be there in the first place. And just as Caitlyn, I have walked out of a job a few times, because I didn't and still don't want to work for a...s . And I have never been out of work for longer than a day in my whole life
@Browser72
No, there should be more Ladies who protest more and louder.
....then he should have explained himself properly. If one can not explain him/herself properly as a leader of 400 people, one shouldn't be there in the first place. And just as Caitlyn, I have walked out of a job a few times, because I didn't and still don't want to work for a...s . And I have never been out of work for longer than a day in my whole life
@Browser72
No, there should be more Ladies who protest more and louder.
Francy, it's quite possible he honestly didn't know of the impression he was giving. It may have been an entirely new situation for him as well, in fact given the all male situation of the firm, I think it's very probable it was, and anyone can be caught on the hop, experienced or not. Now, I am NOT trying to make excuses for him - but simply trying to look at both sides of the situation.
Also, I very seriously believe in gender equality. If a person has the physical and mental skills for a position, gender is irrelevant - as long as the person wants the particular position. The worst situation we have here in Oz comes about because of what is called equal representation in which women are put into positions purely because they are women, not because they have the skills. And that to me is repugnant and patronising.
Now don't mistake me, I back caitlyn here, but I am playing "devil's advocate" because I do suspect there are underlying currents in this matter that none of us know. The fact that they re-contacted caitlyn is extremely interesting.......and adds some strength to the argument that the manager is seriously trying to rectify a rather large problem. But again, hypothesis, hypothesis and only caitlyn and the manager himself can answer those questions.
Also, I very seriously believe in gender equality. If a person has the physical and mental skills for a position, gender is irrelevant - as long as the person wants the particular position. The worst situation we have here in Oz comes about because of what is called equal representation in which women are put into positions purely because they are women, not because they have the skills. And that to me is repugnant and patronising.
Now don't mistake me, I back caitlyn here, but I am playing "devil's advocate" because I do suspect there are underlying currents in this matter that none of us know. The fact that they re-contacted caitlyn is extremely interesting.......and adds some strength to the argument that the manager is seriously trying to rectify a rather large problem. But again, hypothesis, hypothesis and only caitlyn and the manager himself can answer those questions.
Ridcully: I will admit that I had to go with my gut feelings and based on my experiences. I can't know for certain what the environment would have been like had I taken the position. I do know that the interview with the manager was about an hour long and left me terribly uncomfortable. In a previous interview a different man who quizzed me expressed surprise that a woman could do the job. My impression, from the entire interview process, was that the environment would be hostile. Could I be wrong about that? Of course, anything is possible. Usually, though, I'm a pretty good judge of people.
I will add that this was not the only reason I turned the position down. This position was in a small southern city in a very conservative state. Having had recent experience living and working for a year in Huntsville, Texas and feeling very isolated and alone I really didn't want to repeat that experience. The money was good enough for me to consider it but the work environment did not instill confidence. For me to relocate there I had to feel this was a long term opportunity. On paper it was but I didn't feel like it was a place where I could fit in.
Every interview process should be a two way street. The candidate should be interviewing the company and evaluating if the position is a good fit. To me it seemed this one was not.
As I said, the position is still vacant. It's in an area with relatively few employers and relatively low wages. It offers the kind of pay I'd expect in New York, not in the rural South. Something is terribly wrong there because the skills they are looking for, while certainly requiring a lot of experience in the enterprise, are neither unique nor that terribly hard to find.
Also, seriously, 400 people and no women, as in zero. I haven't seen an all male department with more than 5 people and I've been in IT since 1980. C'mon, is my analysis of the situation in any way unreasonable? I think not.
I will add that this was not the only reason I turned the position down. This position was in a small southern city in a very conservative state. Having had recent experience living and working for a year in Huntsville, Texas and feeling very isolated and alone I really didn't want to repeat that experience. The money was good enough for me to consider it but the work environment did not instill confidence. For me to relocate there I had to feel this was a long term opportunity. On paper it was but I didn't feel like it was a place where I could fit in.
Every interview process should be a two way street. The candidate should be interviewing the company and evaluating if the position is a good fit. To me it seemed this one was not.
As I said, the position is still vacant. It's in an area with relatively few employers and relatively low wages. It offers the kind of pay I'd expect in New York, not in the rural South. Something is terribly wrong there because the skills they are looking for, while certainly requiring a lot of experience in the enterprise, are neither unique nor that terribly hard to find.
Also, seriously, 400 people and no women, as in zero. I haven't seen an all male department with more than 5 people and I've been in IT since 1980. C'mon, is my analysis of the situation in any way unreasonable? I think not.
My sincere thanks Caitlyn. It's a very curious situation and I back your judgement on this - completely. I would have said: "It tastes wrong.".......and I think your background info correlates with that assessment completely. Thankyou for being so frank and open on LXer as well. It takes a bit of courage to "tell the world". No, my assessment is that you have done the right thing by yourself; I'd have backed out too, had the gender situation been reversed. :-)
Ridcully, you are of course right in the argument 'as you present it'.
My reaction was more based on memories surfacing all of a sudden. Unfortunately, Caitlyn is fighting a lonely battle, and here is why :
Right now I am ( temp ) involved in the educational system, mainly Linux. My students are from 12 to 17. In the classroom the "male superior" mentality is very visible. However, if you look at the scores, the girls average is 15% higher, month after month, year after year. Of course, the boys can explain, .....as always !
In all fairness I also have to mention that there are exceptions , in both genders.
But if this mentality is already visible with young adults, without being rubbed in by society, what can we expect when they are in their twenties or thirties.
OK, after this 2c I am out of this discussion. Note: I will reply on the Fungus thing later on. :-)
My reaction was more based on memories surfacing all of a sudden. Unfortunately, Caitlyn is fighting a lonely battle, and here is why :
Right now I am ( temp ) involved in the educational system, mainly Linux. My students are from 12 to 17. In the classroom the "male superior" mentality is very visible. However, if you look at the scores, the girls average is 15% higher, month after month, year after year. Of course, the boys can explain, .....as always !
In all fairness I also have to mention that there are exceptions , in both genders.
But if this mentality is already visible with young adults, without being rubbed in by society, what can we expect when they are in their twenties or thirties.
OK, after this 2c I am out of this discussion. Note: I will reply on the Fungus thing later on. :-)
I would not have taken the job either - I would not want to be the only woman in a 400 man organisation. Its not very important why the team is exclusively male. That is not going to be a comfortable environment.
Agreed that all the clues make this a very odd situation and a turndown. The lack of any women is odd. The high salary in proportion to the skill set required is also very odd.
If you think about it from CM's point of view, its a big risk. You take an offer which involves leaving a fairly secure business which is well under own control. You move to a new social environment where you control almost nothing. Its small town, and CM sounds like a city person. It will be parachuting in to a world in which everyone knows everyone and is looking at you. If it doesn't work out, what do you do? Quit and move back? Restart consulting?
I would not do it. Now, gender and IT?
In the IT sector you have a high proportion of men with poor social skills of the sort that women, in a social environment, value and are attracted to. Its not a criticism of them in one sense, no-one is perfect. No one or very few is simultaneously an athlete, composer and poet. But this does seem to be a fact about the IT sector. There is a lot of slightly autistic behaviour.
There are work groups with a concentration of such people. In them there is also a shared resentment of women which comes to be a local cultural norm. It just results from a majority having a particular view and particular experiences. From the point of view of someone at the autistic end of the spectrum, he sees women who he desperately needs and wants to charm reacting to him with indifference or hostility. This is a puzzle which he needs to solve, and he simply does not have the key and cannot seem to figure out how even to approach it. He sees women as unpredictable and even hostile, and ends up defining them as sexual objects because that is the thing that is most problematic for him about them.
Men often too would evoke the same feelings, except that what he needs from them are impersonal and can be expressed in objective and technical terms, so that is a lot easier. He can get by without social skills in a work environment. With women, socially, he can't.
A workplace with a high proportion of people in the grip of this syndrome really is no place for a lone woman with any sense of self preservation.
Now, its a distribution. There are work places were there is a reasonable balance of the genders, and which are not wholly peopled by those on the autistic end of the spectrum. These are much nicer places for everyone to work. All one can say to women is, find them, because you'll have a decent time there, and be treated like a normal person instead of like an alien from another planet.
And if you are at the autistic end of the spectrum, look for such places too. You may initially not be as comfortable, but such places and groups have a way of finding and making space for everyone.
I have no idea what to do about the problem in general, or what to do about the problem workplaces and work groups. Self preservation however would say, don't be a guinea pig. Yes, if everyone takes that point of view they will continue and the general problem will persist. I agree. Its a great pity. Yes, it is. Doesn't mean any particular person should wreck themselves trying to fix it.
Agreed that all the clues make this a very odd situation and a turndown. The lack of any women is odd. The high salary in proportion to the skill set required is also very odd.
If you think about it from CM's point of view, its a big risk. You take an offer which involves leaving a fairly secure business which is well under own control. You move to a new social environment where you control almost nothing. Its small town, and CM sounds like a city person. It will be parachuting in to a world in which everyone knows everyone and is looking at you. If it doesn't work out, what do you do? Quit and move back? Restart consulting?
I would not do it. Now, gender and IT?
In the IT sector you have a high proportion of men with poor social skills of the sort that women, in a social environment, value and are attracted to. Its not a criticism of them in one sense, no-one is perfect. No one or very few is simultaneously an athlete, composer and poet. But this does seem to be a fact about the IT sector. There is a lot of slightly autistic behaviour.
There are work groups with a concentration of such people. In them there is also a shared resentment of women which comes to be a local cultural norm. It just results from a majority having a particular view and particular experiences. From the point of view of someone at the autistic end of the spectrum, he sees women who he desperately needs and wants to charm reacting to him with indifference or hostility. This is a puzzle which he needs to solve, and he simply does not have the key and cannot seem to figure out how even to approach it. He sees women as unpredictable and even hostile, and ends up defining them as sexual objects because that is the thing that is most problematic for him about them.
Men often too would evoke the same feelings, except that what he needs from them are impersonal and can be expressed in objective and technical terms, so that is a lot easier. He can get by without social skills in a work environment. With women, socially, he can't.
A workplace with a high proportion of people in the grip of this syndrome really is no place for a lone woman with any sense of self preservation.
Now, its a distribution. There are work places were there is a reasonable balance of the genders, and which are not wholly peopled by those on the autistic end of the spectrum. These are much nicer places for everyone to work. All one can say to women is, find them, because you'll have a decent time there, and be treated like a normal person instead of like an alien from another planet.
And if you are at the autistic end of the spectrum, look for such places too. You may initially not be as comfortable, but such places and groups have a way of finding and making space for everyone.
I have no idea what to do about the problem in general, or what to do about the problem workplaces and work groups. Self preservation however would say, don't be a guinea pig. Yes, if everyone takes that point of view they will continue and the general problem will persist. I agree. Its a great pity. Yes, it is. Doesn't mean any particular person should wreck themselves trying to fix it.
Quoting: be treated like a normal person instead of like an alien from another planet.
Exactly right, though some people insist on translating this as wanting Special Rights. You have to pay attention to those red flags; as Caitlyn said a job interview is a two-way task- you're interviewing the company. No amount of money and benefits is worth working in a company full of icky people.
Quoting:No amount of money and benefits is worth working in a company full of icky people.
Agreed. Caitlyn is fortunate to have the choice to walk away. Other women IT professionals may not be so lucky. Caitlyn, did you consider voicing, spelling out your first impressions to the manager? He may be unaware that there is an unhealthy corporate culture at the company. Glad to hear that your business venture options are healthy.
tuxchick: "some people insist on translating this as wanting Special Rights"
It's usually women who do that (granted, only a vocal minority of feminist 'man hater' women, not the majority)
"No amount of money and benefits is worth working in a company full of icky people." If that doesn't sound prejudiced then I don't know what. How do you know those 400 men are all or even mostly 'icky people'? Or are they 'icky' simply because they are men?
You really need to get down from your high horse, there are just as many 'icky' women as there are 'icky' men in this world.
"No amount of money and benefits is worth working in a company full of icky people." If that doesn't sound prejudiced then I don't know what. How do you know those 400 men are all or even mostly 'icky people'? Or are they 'icky' simply because they are men?
You really need to get down from your high horse, there are just as many 'icky' women as there are 'icky' men in this world.
Quoting: did you consider voicing, spelling out your first impressions to the manager?
I applied for a job at our favorite rojo chapeau company, and was left wondering how they find their way out the door without guides. The job was listed last December, and they were all urgent about finding someone. It was listed as remote, and sounded tailor-made for me, so it sounded pretty good. Come to find out their idea of remote is 8-5 M-F in the office, with a work at home option for bad weather or other exceptional circumstances. So it's not really remote.
My first point of contact is this enthusiastic recruiter who painted glowing pictures of everything. Then there are multiple hoops to jump through, questionaires and this and that, which all add up to about 6 hours of unpaid work, because I'm not job-hunting while I'm on the clock at a job. The weeks go by, and after I bug them a couple of times I finally get hooked up with a hiring manager. This guy sounds like he's either crushed by life or needs some caffeine; there is no spark at all. We have a one-hour by-the-numbers phone interview where he's reading questions off a form, and for all I know playing Tetris instead of listening to the answers. Or cruising the help wanted ads. Then he says, in his dead tone of voice, that so far so good and the next step is some team interviews.
So more weeks go by, I bug the recruiter some more, and he has excuses like they're shorthanded, or it's end of quarter, which apparently brings the business to a halt. All I want to know is am I a candidate for the job or not. I still have no idea, or why they even bothered. It reminds me of the Microsoft and Google cultures of recreational job interviews and recruiters who spend their days bugging people, but never actually recruiting anyone.
So this leaves me thinking that it's not going to be a good situation to walk into because they seem to need a strong manager more than they need more worker bees, and it's going to be frustrating getting the necessary resources to do the job. Which is feedback they probably should hear. It seems like if you're about working and being productive, you have to stick with small companies or working for yourself.
No sympathy
27 earlier comments in the full thread.
Beez --
Now that I've read it, I scratch my head. I am hard-pressed to see the significance of a 30 year old case, beyond clarifying the shifts in burden of proof and the conditions under which an appeals court can question the judgment of the trial court.
Now that I've read it, I scratch my head. I am hard-pressed to see the significance of a 30 year old case, beyond clarifying the shifts in burden of proof and the conditions under which an appeals court can question the judgment of the trial court.
@mbaehrixer
Did I misread the article. The part where she asked him about the environment and the manager said he wouldn't allow a sexist environment? Or where the manager is offering a woman a job? If the company has a men-only attitude why was Caitlyn offered a job? Would it sound better to her if the manager said we have an unhealthy situation and we want you to be the first woman to help us change it? Would she?
What if there is something about the work location or something other than "those nasty men" making it uninhabitable for a woman and no woman has actually applied for a job before. The thing is we don't know. And since the job offer was turned down because of what "might" be a problem we will never know for sure.
Did I misread the article. The part where she asked him about the environment and the manager said he wouldn't allow a sexist environment? Or where the manager is offering a woman a job? If the company has a men-only attitude why was Caitlyn offered a job? Would it sound better to her if the manager said we have an unhealthy situation and we want you to be the first woman to help us change it? Would she?
What if there is something about the work location or something other than "those nasty men" making it uninhabitable for a woman and no woman has actually applied for a job before. The thing is we don't know. And since the job offer was turned down because of what "might" be a problem we will never know for sure.
> Would it sound better to her if the manager said we have an unhealthy situation and we want you to be the first woman to help us change it?
That would have at least been truthful, so yes.
> The thing is we don't know.
Obviously. And even Caitlyn admits that her story doesn't give us enough information to know, and that she doesn't have enough information to know.
What Caitlyn is doing is publicizing a potential problem. That's what journalists do. That lets the weight of societal forces do their work.
That would have at least been truthful, so yes.
> The thing is we don't know.
Obviously. And even Caitlyn admits that her story doesn't give us enough information to know, and that she doesn't have enough information to know.
What Caitlyn is doing is publicizing a potential problem. That's what journalists do. That lets the weight of societal forces do their work.
@jdixon
For the societal forces to work you need to know who to pressure. I don't recall the company being identified. So, just what have we accomplished with this article? To make a point about discrimination? Without specific information I could write anything I feel like to "prove" my point. And it wouldn't even have to be true.
I'm not saying Caitlyn would do that. Just that I'm not sure I see the point in the article. All it says to me is that Caitlyn is very sensitive about the subject. Be it real or imagined.
Of course we regular readers already knew that.
For the societal forces to work you need to know who to pressure. I don't recall the company being identified. So, just what have we accomplished with this article? To make a point about discrimination? Without specific information I could write anything I feel like to "prove" my point. And it wouldn't even have to be true.
I'm not saying Caitlyn would do that. Just that I'm not sure I see the point in the article. All it says to me is that Caitlyn is very sensitive about the subject. Be it real or imagined.
Of course we regular readers already knew that.
> For the societal forces to work you need to know who to pressure.
She's given enough clues that I'm sure the company could be identified if anyone chose to bother.
> All it says to me is that Caitlyn is very sensitive about the subject. Be it real or imagined.
Of course. She and TC have been working in IT for years. They've encountered the problems numerous times. They're going to be sensitive to it. We're all shaped (to one degree or another) by our experiences.
She's given enough clues that I'm sure the company could be identified if anyone chose to bother.
> All it says to me is that Caitlyn is very sensitive about the subject. Be it real or imagined.
Of course. She and TC have been working in IT for years. They've encountered the problems numerous times. They're going to be sensitive to it. We're all shaped (to one degree or another) by our experiences.
cabreh wrote:Would it sound better to her if the manager said we have an unhealthy situation and we want you to be the first woman to help us change it?
oh, yes, that is exactly what i meant with being open about the situation.
there is a wide range from having a men-only attitude to having an environment that women would actually want to work in.
as for the cost of hiring more women? well if diversity makes for more productive work, then that should soon pay for itself.
greetings, eMBee.
"if diversity makes for more productive work, then that should soon pay for itself."
"IF" being the operative word here.
Beez --
There is no if about it. The problem lies in people who want to hire themselves over and over and over again. Great way to turn brainstorming into braindrizzling.
There is no if about it. The problem lies in people who want to hire themselves over and over and over again. Great way to turn brainstorming into braindrizzling.
@caitlyn,
For the sake of us all, Please, go back to technical writing.
For the sake of us all, Please, go back to technical writing.
I've never worked for an employer where the entire IT staff was male. And I'm talking decades of work here. The smallest shop I was an employee in had three IT staff for the entire company of about 200 people. I have consulted to companies with no IT and been the only staff member while on contract, but that doesn't inform us of company policy.
Even there we had 2 male and 1 female. That is the one case I've experienced where, statistically, it could have been all one sex or the other and not be unusual (because the total count is so low). I mean, when flipping a coin you can get three heads or three tails in a row quite often.
Yes I know that the candidates are predominantly male which produces a certain bias. Hiring IT professionals is not like flipping a coin. But hundreds of flips and all the same side? Even starting off with a 70/30 split in the candidate pool to make hundreds of selections and to be nowhere near a 70/30 is very unusual.
What ever the actual ratio is in the candidates, there should be a clear convergence on that ratio as the number of total selections increases. Sure there will be some wavering, but hundred of selections made and all M and no F?
It will converge to the ratio in the candidate pool unless there is some other factor biasing the choice.
Reading Caitlyn's article, it seems to say to me that she read the same thing in the tea leaves and declined the offer. Call the factor that is biasing the choice whatever you want: sexism, Factor X (or maybe Y would be more appropriate here, tee hee), it is clear something is biasing the selection.
Unless the job is something like "Testing the comfort of new automated prostate exam instruments and techniques" I can't see a reason the bias on one sex over the other.
Even there we had 2 male and 1 female. That is the one case I've experienced where, statistically, it could have been all one sex or the other and not be unusual (because the total count is so low). I mean, when flipping a coin you can get three heads or three tails in a row quite often.
Yes I know that the candidates are predominantly male which produces a certain bias. Hiring IT professionals is not like flipping a coin. But hundreds of flips and all the same side? Even starting off with a 70/30 split in the candidate pool to make hundreds of selections and to be nowhere near a 70/30 is very unusual.
What ever the actual ratio is in the candidates, there should be a clear convergence on that ratio as the number of total selections increases. Sure there will be some wavering, but hundred of selections made and all M and no F?
It will converge to the ratio in the candidate pool unless there is some other factor biasing the choice.
Reading Caitlyn's article, it seems to say to me that she read the same thing in the tea leaves and declined the offer. Call the factor that is biasing the choice whatever you want: sexism, Factor X (or maybe Y would be more appropriate here, tee hee), it is clear something is biasing the selection.
Unless the job is something like "Testing the comfort of new automated prostate exam instruments and techniques" I can't see a reason the bias on one sex over the other.
@6x --
I agree with you mostly.
Yes I know that the candidates are predominantly male which produces a certain bias
I don't know what the percentages are, but there are enough female IT types these days that "predominantly" is too strong a word.
Which makes 400 to zip even more suspicious.
I agree with you mostly.
Yes I know that the candidates are predominantly male which produces a certain bias
I don't know what the percentages are, but there are enough female IT types these days that "predominantly" is too strong a word.
Which makes 400 to zip even more suspicious.
She didn't like the ambience....it tasted "wrong".......alarm bells went off in her "personal assessment of the business"......But whatever, it's caitlyn's choice, no-one else's, and with that perspective, I'm sure we would all agree. She shared her decision. Fine with me, and she gave me her full reasons on another thread. I'm happy with that too.
This thread really is now looking for a reason for its own existence and is trying to feed on itself. Why don't we all just leave it at that ? And without any acrimony, call it a day, shake hands and go back to Linux.
This thread really is now looking for a reason for its own existence and is trying to feed on itself. Why don't we all just leave it at that ? And without any acrimony, call it a day, shake hands and go back to Linux.
@Ridcully
That's downplaying at its best - you should have been a spin doctor. No, it's just another bout in a constant line of flagrant misandry, directed at those who have a HOBBY - for Pete's sake - or just go to work every day with their boxed lunches in order to provide for their families. And it's presented here - over and over again - by uttering ever changing shots in the dark and wild accusations that we're just a bunch of rapists making it our job to degrade and put down the women we work with or make it impossible to work. If women want to change all this, then don't do "recreational management" as your PhD, but do computer science. Put down the 'Elle' and 'Vogue' and pick up 'My Raspberry Pi' or 'Populsar electronics'. Because that is the real cause. As long as some women resort to blaming others - for whatever personal reasons of experiences they might have - nothing will change.
QED.....there is nothing more to be said........except DO please read the second paragraph of my post above.
@dino...
That's what I meant when I said what ever the actual ratio in the candidate pool is there should be convergence to that ratio.
Caitlyn observed the workplace as it exists at the moment she was offered the position and made her choice based upon the state of that workplace. That decision was her choice, but the state of the workplace had nothing to do with Caitlyn.
Presumably female candidates had been encountered before. Possibly female employees had been present. What had so radically biased the state of the workplace by the time Caitlyn had observed it?
The common denominator is the workplace.
To say that this example is due to Caitlyn's choice is not logical. Caitlyn's choice cannot 'go back in time' and create the bias in the workplace. Her choice was a consequence of the bias in the workplace being observed and interpreted to imply some bias that would cause her more negative than the position would offer in positives.
Caitlyn's choice did not create the state of the workplace at the time of her choice, rather the state of the workplace created Caitlyn's choice.
@Ridcully, yes wee seem to be far off topic. The Linux community seems to offer a great deal of opportunity for women and there seem to be a measurable number who are prominent in the community. Just compare the ratios of men to women journalists in 'PC' magazines vs 'Linux' oriented outlets. Yes it is still very male dominated, but Linux does seem to lead here.
It could be that Linux, being community based, did not have the large existing structures and organizations to put barriers in the way of the smaller percentage of women who were interested in contributing and so they were able to contribute and rise to prominence.
The 'Mac' world seems less biased in this measure, but the image there is more controlled and managed so I'm not sure if the appearance is real. I don't have enough experience having left the Apple world in the early 90's with the fall of the Apple II line.
I think it would be interesting to develop some measures, but the best way forward is to encourage children to play and explore with things like the Raspberry Pi and with programming. Encourage all that show interest.
My daughter has a very artistic and creative mind. She is still in grade school, but I am encouraging her to explore design and the mathematics of describing objects. Design engineering can be a very disciplined field. I'm encouraging her interest and trying to help her see that the technical stuff is just part of the whole, not a barrier to be overcome. Its amazing how she doesn't think of it as work when it is just a way to get some weekend art project done.
Several times, while doing geometry in her math homework for example, she has said things like: 'Dad, did you know the other kids didn't know how to figure the area of a triangle?'
We covered that one when we were making a teepee tent for her barbie dolls a few years before and needed to know how much fabric to get. I get inspiration for these things from the way Richard Feynman described his dad raised him.
Not being part of the problem takes effort.
That's what I meant when I said what ever the actual ratio in the candidate pool is there should be convergence to that ratio.
Caitlyn observed the workplace as it exists at the moment she was offered the position and made her choice based upon the state of that workplace. That decision was her choice, but the state of the workplace had nothing to do with Caitlyn.
Presumably female candidates had been encountered before. Possibly female employees had been present. What had so radically biased the state of the workplace by the time Caitlyn had observed it?
The common denominator is the workplace.
To say that this example is due to Caitlyn's choice is not logical. Caitlyn's choice cannot 'go back in time' and create the bias in the workplace. Her choice was a consequence of the bias in the workplace being observed and interpreted to imply some bias that would cause her more negative than the position would offer in positives.
Caitlyn's choice did not create the state of the workplace at the time of her choice, rather the state of the workplace created Caitlyn's choice.
@Ridcully, yes wee seem to be far off topic. The Linux community seems to offer a great deal of opportunity for women and there seem to be a measurable number who are prominent in the community. Just compare the ratios of men to women journalists in 'PC' magazines vs 'Linux' oriented outlets. Yes it is still very male dominated, but Linux does seem to lead here.
It could be that Linux, being community based, did not have the large existing structures and organizations to put barriers in the way of the smaller percentage of women who were interested in contributing and so they were able to contribute and rise to prominence.
The 'Mac' world seems less biased in this measure, but the image there is more controlled and managed so I'm not sure if the appearance is real. I don't have enough experience having left the Apple world in the early 90's with the fall of the Apple II line.
I think it would be interesting to develop some measures, but the best way forward is to encourage children to play and explore with things like the Raspberry Pi and with programming. Encourage all that show interest.
My daughter has a very artistic and creative mind. She is still in grade school, but I am encouraging her to explore design and the mathematics of describing objects. Design engineering can be a very disciplined field. I'm encouraging her interest and trying to help her see that the technical stuff is just part of the whole, not a barrier to be overcome. Its amazing how she doesn't think of it as work when it is just a way to get some weekend art project done.
Several times, while doing geometry in her math homework for example, she has said things like: 'Dad, did you know the other kids didn't know how to figure the area of a triangle?'
We covered that one when we were making a teepee tent for her barbie dolls a few years before and needed to know how much fabric to get. I get inspiration for these things from the way Richard Feynman described his dad raised him.
Not being part of the problem takes effort.
Thankyou "number6x".......this thread is now more suited to a society page or a psychological journal, not a site dedicated to Linux with all the best that technical experts and their comments offer. Couldn't we all agree to let this thing drop......PLEASE !!!
@Rid --
So, these father issues of yours. When do you think they first began to guide your posts, especially with regard to strong women?
Perhaps you subconscious self is telling you to eat more fiber. Perhaps you know a raccoon with a death wish.
Fear not, we WILL get to the root of your problems.
Whoops! Hour's up.
So, these father issues of yours. When do you think they first began to guide your posts, especially with regard to strong women?
Perhaps you subconscious self is telling you to eat more fiber. Perhaps you know a raccoon with a death wish.
Fear not, we WILL get to the root of your problems.
Whoops! Hour's up.
@dinotrac
This is getting dangerously close to a "ad hominem" attack - don't go into that. Note it would be far to easy to get this into the discussion both ways - and whatever both sides may think of each other - I don't think this is the way we want to go.
I did not intend to add anything to this thread......I hoped it would quietly die a natural death. One is put in a very difficult position when one is an editor. You always, always want to see a great discussion, but you also know you have to consider and try to conform to the TOS concepts of LXer. Any of my posts on this thread have been from that perspective. Nothing else. Thankyou Beez.
@beez -
I would never do that.
Not only are some of my best friends hominids, some of my favorite words are homonyms.
I would never do that.
Not only are some of my best friends hominids, some of my favorite words are homonyms.
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:o)