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Facebook begins mass censorship in Europe
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Comments (37)
17 earlier comments in the full thread.
@brideoflinux
@jimlynch
Now that's how to conduct a civilized argument / genuine discussion / exchange of opinions!
Bravo!!!
Now that's how to conduct a civilized argument / genuine discussion / exchange of opinions!
Bravo!!!
If someone could point me to a linux news site that ONLY links to articles of the type “this application exists and here’s how you use it”, it would be much appreciated. LXer and Linuxtoday are full of politics and other treehouse nonsense.
Calling others SJWs is just one type of treehouse nonsense, by the way.
Calling others SJWs is just one type of treehouse nonsense, by the way.
> Now that's how to conduct a civilized argument / genuine discussion / exchange of opinions!
Yes, and I owe brideoflinux and apology. I misattributed tbuitenh's treatment of Lynch's argument to her. I apologize for the mistake. I've made a note to that effect above also.
> Calling others SJWs is just one type of treehouse nonsense, by the way.
Whereas dismissing people's arguments out of hand rather than on their merits is oh so mature.
Yeah, everyone does it at one time or another. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Yes, and I owe brideoflinux and apology. I misattributed tbuitenh's treatment of Lynch's argument to her. I apologize for the mistake. I've made a note to that effect above also.
> Calling others SJWs is just one type of treehouse nonsense, by the way.
Whereas dismissing people's arguments out of hand rather than on their merits is oh so mature.
Yeah, everyone does it at one time or another. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.
@jdixon
There is no merit in treehouse nonsense.
But I will admit I have a special dislike of anti-SJWs. Why? Well, society makes rape prevention 99% the responsibility of women, and 1% the responsibility of male bystanders. That means I’m expected to evaluate the trustworthiness of all men I interact with very quickly. I’m expected to look for red flags, and spouting anti-SJW opinions is a major red flag. Please don’t misunderstand, I don’t think the majority of anti-SJWs are serial rapists, but I would expect them to call me a liar and start a smear campaign against me if one of their buddies did something to me and I complained about it. That is, unfortunately, the reality I live in.
I was being kind by saying anti-SJWs should be ignored. My real opinion is that it’s wise to stay a mile away from them because there are plenty of other men and women to interact with who don’t have such a huge red flag stuck to them.
None of this should be taken as a statement about whether or not Jim Lynch is dangerous to anyone or would ever start a smear campaign against anyone for any reason. I’m not campaigning to have him removed from anything either, and I never will.
I just happen to have the personal opinion that the guy is a huge creep.
Freedom of speech exercised :) .
There is no merit in treehouse nonsense.
But I will admit I have a special dislike of anti-SJWs. Why? Well, society makes rape prevention 99% the responsibility of women, and 1% the responsibility of male bystanders. That means I’m expected to evaluate the trustworthiness of all men I interact with very quickly. I’m expected to look for red flags, and spouting anti-SJW opinions is a major red flag. Please don’t misunderstand, I don’t think the majority of anti-SJWs are serial rapists, but I would expect them to call me a liar and start a smear campaign against me if one of their buddies did something to me and I complained about it. That is, unfortunately, the reality I live in.
I was being kind by saying anti-SJWs should be ignored. My real opinion is that it’s wise to stay a mile away from them because there are plenty of other men and women to interact with who don’t have such a huge red flag stuck to them.
None of this should be taken as a statement about whether or not Jim Lynch is dangerous to anyone or would ever start a smear campaign against anyone for any reason. I’m not campaigning to have him removed from anything either, and I never will.
I just happen to have the personal opinion that the guy is a huge creep.
Freedom of speech exercised :) .
> Regarding the post about Facebook, it's important to note that Facebook's policy seems squarely aimed at anybody who disagrees with Angela Merkel's policy about flooding Germany with young Muslim men from the Middle East despite the sexual assaults, rapes and other violence being directed against German women by them. I can't imagine any sane person would consider people expressing opposition to any of that and wanting Germany to close its borders to more young Muslim men as being "racist" or "xenophobic." Sometimes the safety of the citizens of a country (particularly women) warrants immediate action, and I think that this is one of those cases.
Stop reading the far right screeds, please.
The events around new years were too well organized and happening in too many places to be some kind of inherent mentality. It had to be coordinated and organized, in a way to cause fear, panic and division.
Here is the thing, the assholes down in Syria just as much feed on FUD as the far right groups around Europe. In essence, they feed off each other.
The real issue for Europe is the continued EU austerity policy that is leaving much of the European youth idle. That is a recipe for trouble no matter the upbringing or skin color.
Stop reading the far right screeds, please.
The events around new years were too well organized and happening in too many places to be some kind of inherent mentality. It had to be coordinated and organized, in a way to cause fear, panic and division.
Here is the thing, the assholes down in Syria just as much feed on FUD as the far right groups around Europe. In essence, they feed off each other.
The real issue for Europe is the continued EU austerity policy that is leaving much of the European youth idle. That is a recipe for trouble no matter the upbringing or skin color.
@tbuitenh
Thanks for the...er...warm thoughts. ;)
As far as being "dangerous" goes, if you knew me in person you'd get a pretty good chuckle about that. I'm a rather boring, middle aged dude that lifts weights, likes to write, reads a lot of books via Kindle and Audible and lives a very hobbitish sort of life. Not much in the way of adventures and that sort of thing happening on my end. And that's pretty much how I like it. :)
Thanks for the...er...warm thoughts. ;)
As far as being "dangerous" goes, if you knew me in person you'd get a pretty good chuckle about that. I'm a rather boring, middle aged dude that lifts weights, likes to write, reads a lot of books via Kindle and Audible and lives a very hobbitish sort of life. Not much in the way of adventures and that sort of thing happening on my end. And that's pretty much how I like it. :)
> But I will admit I have a special dislike of anti-SJWs.
That's OK. I have special dislike of SJW's. Mostly because of lies they've told about people I happen to like.
> That is, unfortunately, the reality I live in.
Well, it's the reality you think you live in. Whether that's the case or not is left as an exercise to the reader.
> I was being kind by saying anti-SJWs should be ignored. My real opinion is that it’s wise to stay a mile away from them...
I feel the same way about SJW's. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be willing to allow that.
> Freedom of speech exercised :) .
Likewise. Aren't you glad that it's allowed here, unlike on Facebook in Germany?
That's OK. I have special dislike of SJW's. Mostly because of lies they've told about people I happen to like.
> That is, unfortunately, the reality I live in.
Well, it's the reality you think you live in. Whether that's the case or not is left as an exercise to the reader.
> I was being kind by saying anti-SJWs should be ignored. My real opinion is that it’s wise to stay a mile away from them...
I feel the same way about SJW's. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be willing to allow that.
> Freedom of speech exercised :) .
Likewise. Aren't you glad that it's allowed here, unlike on Facebook in Germany?
The TOS is becoming an irrelevant joke. But upstream it's worse as such articles with no tech substance have gone through the editorial board.
> The TOS is becoming an irrelevant joke..
Everyone (including tbuitenh) seems to have done their best to avoid tying this discussion here to any specific political party or platform.
It's primarily a free speech discussion. Yes, that's political. But it also ties into free software, as software is simply a form of written speech.
Everyone (including tbuitenh) seems to have done their best to avoid tying this discussion here to any specific political party or platform.
It's primarily a free speech discussion. Yes, that's political. But it also ties into free software, as software is simply a form of written speech.
As has been said before, Open Source and Free Software *are* political movements, although not overtly party political.
I think the TOS was intended to cover overt party politicking. It's hard discussing the IT industry or free software without becoming political in some measure.
In the past where TOS was invoked, discussion had turned to purely political debate which had diverged from the core issue of Free Software.
From my reading, SJW as labeled is often used to refer to the extremists of the social agenda. There are ways of implementing change without sneaking into organisations and destroying them from within which is the claim inference of the original article. RMS is a prime example of how change can be implemented without do this. He espouses a staunch view and tries to live it to the best of his abilities. He didn't try to infiltrate Microsoft and destroy them from the inside. He merely provided an alternative and invited others to join him. And so we now have the Free Software movement.
It is possible to effect change. But those who would take on such a role need to understand two things:
1) You don't really need to be an arse about it.
2) Real change takes generations. You cannot change entrenched attitudes.
In the past where TOS was invoked, discussion had turned to purely political debate which had diverged from the core issue of Free Software.
From my reading, SJW as labeled is often used to refer to the extremists of the social agenda. There are ways of implementing change without sneaking into organisations and destroying them from within which is the claim inference of the original article. RMS is a prime example of how change can be implemented without do this. He espouses a staunch view and tries to live it to the best of his abilities. He didn't try to infiltrate Microsoft and destroy them from the inside. He merely provided an alternative and invited others to join him. And so we now have the Free Software movement.
It is possible to effect change. But those who would take on such a role need to understand two things:
1) You don't really need to be an arse about it.
2) Real change takes generations. You cannot change entrenched attitudes.
> As has been said before, Open Source and Free Software *are* political movements, although not overtly party political.
Exactly. It's a fine line the moderators have to walk. They normally do a good job. But if I cross the line, they're not shy about slapping me down.
Exactly. It's a fine line the moderators have to walk. They normally do a good job. But if I cross the line, they're not shy about slapping me down.
> Open Source and Free Software *are* political movements
That's debatable and I won't do that here. The article speaks about what Facebook does in a country. There's nothing related to Open Source and Free Software in that behaviour, really nothing. In that respect, it should not have been proposed to readers.
That's debatable and I won't do that here. The article speaks about what Facebook does in a country. There's nothing related to Open Source and Free Software in that behaviour, really nothing. In that respect, it should not have been proposed to readers.
> The article speaks about what Facebook does in a country. There's nothing related to Open Source and Free Software in that behaviour,
Do you really think there's no way a piece of open source software can be classified as “racist” or “xenophobic”?
Do you really think there's no way a piece of open source software can be classified as “racist” or “xenophobic”?
>Do you really....
I don 't understand your point, please clarify in the context of the article.
I don 't understand your point, please clarify in the context of the article.
> ,,, please clarify in the context of the article.
Facebook is shutting down any speech which it deems “racist” or “xenophobic”? Do you really think if someone adapted an open source database/search engine combo to search for, categorize, and publicize the various crimes committed by immigrants in the EU that they wouldn't shut down all the results it provided, all mention of the program, and all links to it?
Facebook is shutting down any speech which it deems “racist” or “xenophobic”? Do you really think if someone adapted an open source database/search engine combo to search for, categorize, and publicize the various crimes committed by immigrants in the EU that they wouldn't shut down all the results it provided, all mention of the program, and all links to it?
First of all, I should say this: I remember writing all those words, but I don’t recognize the tbuitenh above as myself. I’m on medicines that are not *for* the brain, but that can have some pretty wild side effects on it. So, sorry for being such a drama queen, especially in that last post.
Now, let’s see if I can put my point of view into words respectfully and without dramatic nonsense. If I can’t, I’m withdrawing my internet privileges for a few weeks at least, until I have proper self control again.
1) In my experience, SJW is something that women will get called for daring to exist near a computer. It’s the same type of insult as “feminazi” was a few years ago. Obviously “feminazi” is a Godwin, and I’m inclined to treat “SJW” the same way even though it contains no reference to Hitler, simply because it is being used by the same people for the same purpose.
2) I believe the idea that “SJWs” are infiltrating anything to be a conspiracy theory. All I see is some very frustrated women trying to stand up for themselves, and them having waited far too long to do so which makes it impossible to resolve the issues in a more productive way.
3) When (1) and (2) are combined, SWATings and rape threats happen. It probably isn’t fair to hold people who are only writing articles responsible for that, but it’s making it very difficult not to dismiss everyone who calls someone else “SJW” as just another paranoid sexist who wants to threaten women away from the computer and back into the kitchen. Even when they’re not sexist and merely believing a conspiracy theory.
Read the whole commentNow, let’s see if I can put my point of view into words respectfully and without dramatic nonsense. If I can’t, I’m withdrawing my internet privileges for a few weeks at least, until I have proper self control again.
1) In my experience, SJW is something that women will get called for daring to exist near a computer. It’s the same type of insult as “feminazi” was a few years ago. Obviously “feminazi” is a Godwin, and I’m inclined to treat “SJW” the same way even though it contains no reference to Hitler, simply because it is being used by the same people for the same purpose.
2) I believe the idea that “SJWs” are infiltrating anything to be a conspiracy theory. All I see is some very frustrated women trying to stand up for themselves, and them having waited far too long to do so which makes it impossible to resolve the issues in a more productive way.
3) When (1) and (2) are combined, SWATings and rape threats happen. It probably isn’t fair to hold people who are only writing articles responsible for that, but it’s making it very difficult not to dismiss everyone who calls someone else “SJW” as just another paranoid sexist who wants to threaten women away from the computer and back into the kitchen. Even when they’re not sexist and merely believing a conspiracy theory.
> ...In my experience, SJW is something that women will get called for daring to exist near a computer.
Possibly, just as numerous other terms are used insultingly and incorrectly. But that's not the common definition. The current usage of the term seems to be fairly well summed up by know your meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior
As to the rest, whether SJW's are poor innocent lambs merely trying to make their way in the world or whether they're self righteous attackers, trying to make sure other people merely practicing their religion or working for a living have no place in society; well, as you say above,that's left as an exercise for the reader. There's plenty out there to research. The links I gave above are merely the tip of the iceberg. People have to make up their own minds. And, as is usually the case, the truth is probably somewhere between the two.
Possibly, just as numerous other terms are used insultingly and incorrectly. But that's not the common definition. The current usage of the term seems to be fairly well summed up by know your meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior
As to the rest, whether SJW's are poor innocent lambs merely trying to make their way in the world or whether they're self righteous attackers, trying to make sure other people merely practicing their religion or working for a living have no place in society; well, as you say above,that's left as an exercise for the reader. There's plenty out there to research. The links I gave above are merely the tip of the iceberg. People have to make up their own minds. And, as is usually the case, the truth is probably somewhere between the two.
Quoting:Do you really think there's no way a piece of open source software can be classified as “racist” or “xenophobic”?I've seen projects where releases were given overtly political names to make political statement or a name designed to be pejorative to a given group, so of course it can happen.
I'm torn on these types of issues. On one hand I do see people on the hard left who take positions hostile to a nation or ethnic group they don't like and use pejorative and hostile language towards anyone who does not share their views. I see exactly the same on the right, but those people aren't "SJW"s because that term is used for leftist/progressive political views. These days I try to associate with whoever hates me least and also make my political choices based on that criteria. It's truly sad.
Oh, and FWIW, I left LinuxChix a decade ago because people who today would be called SJWs took positions which amounted to supporting the destruction of the country where the majority of my family lives. Lovely people. Oh so liberal and high minded, too. Some are still very active in FOSS and are still pushing their agenda.
> ...so of course it can happen.
Thanks, Caitlyn. Some people seem to think open source is immune to political polarization and manipulation. They are sadly mistaken.
> These days I try to associate with whoever hates me least and also make my political choices based on that criteria. It's truly sad.
There should be room in this world for a private life outside of politics, but that seems to be drifting farther and farther away as time passes. And forces from both sides seem intent on making everyone choose a side, when all most people want is to be left alone. :(
Thanks, Caitlyn. Some people seem to think open source is immune to political polarization and manipulation. They are sadly mistaken.
> These days I try to associate with whoever hates me least and also make my political choices based on that criteria. It's truly sad.
There should be room in this world for a private life outside of politics, but that seems to be drifting farther and farther away as time passes. And forces from both sides seem intent on making everyone choose a side, when all most people want is to be left alone. :(
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No worries on the different perspectives. I have friends who see things differently too, but it's all good. It keeps life interesting! ;)