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Ie7 For XP Beta 2: Has Firefox Met Its Match?
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Comments (33)
13 earlier comments in the full thread.
A few general notes. I am fortunate enough to have been able to carve out a niche for myself implementing and supporting Linux desktop systems in that greater business world that lies beyond my parents' and grandparents' computers. So when I see "answers" that strike me as arguments that would work on my mother but not on the General Manager (usually involving the word Freedom with a captial F) I tend to call people on it. I've come to feel that the Linux community does a bit much clustering together on Linux sites all agreeing with each other for its own good.
That said, I have not completely given up hope on retaining Linux on these machines. The situation, however, is a bit more complex than I have thus far described. What I have is two offices. One in Oklahoma City and the other in Dallas. The central Centos 4.3 server is in OKC. The workstations in question are in Dallas. They are currently a custom, light-weight install of Centos acting purely as X servers for the remote Gnome desktops. The connection is essentially 768kbit. To make performance acceptable, I am using Nomachine NX in the form of freenx on the server and the Nomachine client on the remote stations.
Jdixon, VMWare is actually a possibility since I am already using that for other apps that are Windows only. The only problem is that I was informed yesterday that VMWare is running unacceptably slowly at the remote sites, although it's fine on the stations in OKC. (I know that this *can* happen. e.g. if you NX into a server and then VNC out from that to another machine, the result is unusably slow due to some interaction between the way NX and vnc work.) I have not been able to check this problem out yet, but it generates a cloud of uncertainty as to being able to use VMWare in this recipe.
Further complicating the situation are these 2 items:
1. There is another web-site from which they will be getting binaries for the control systems of restaurant equipment. They download the patches some way and then hotsync them to a palm. They will then take the palm and hotsync it to the equipment to load the new binary. This is *all* I know about it at this point except that it works under Windows. This needs to be done on the same workstation that needs the Mapsco.
2. The client went out and bought an HP 5610 scanner/printer and also wants this to be installed on that station. They need to be able to scan documents and email them to techs. Fortunately, they happened to select a multifunction that is well supported by the HP opensource drivers. (Thank heaven for small miracles.) CentOS 4.3 does not support it, but FC4+ does. This is also to be attached to the same workstation.
Obviously, a Windows box would do all of this since the makers of all the pieces primarily target Windows. I'd be running the windows NX client on it to keep them on the Linux server for most stuff.
Now as to whether I could make Linux do all this, I don't know. But the challenges are many and a bit daunting to me. Perhaps a better question is whether I can make Linux do all this *well*, or would I be pounding a round peg into a square hole, making Linux look bad in the end? Part of the problem is lack of complete info; I just found out about all this yesterday. I would start off with an FC5 workstation. It would be a complete install so that it could run a local desktop. And it would have NX client to remote in to OKC for the regular desktop work.
Essentially, the problems fall into 2 categories. "Linux vs Windows / Firefox vs IE". And "Local desktop vs running everything over the 768kbit pipe".
Plus, of course, with Windows it's all supported, whereas under Linux, I'm on my own. And plus, of course, I can't ethically bill for all the time that will be involved beyond what I would estimate it would take under Windows, but I'm used to that.
That said, I have not completely given up hope on retaining Linux on these machines. The situation, however, is a bit more complex than I have thus far described. What I have is two offices. One in Oklahoma City and the other in Dallas. The central Centos 4.3 server is in OKC. The workstations in question are in Dallas. They are currently a custom, light-weight install of Centos acting purely as X servers for the remote Gnome desktops. The connection is essentially 768kbit. To make performance acceptable, I am using Nomachine NX in the form of freenx on the server and the Nomachine client on the remote stations.
Jdixon, VMWare is actually a possibility since I am already using that for other apps that are Windows only. The only problem is that I was informed yesterday that VMWare is running unacceptably slowly at the remote sites, although it's fine on the stations in OKC. (I know that this *can* happen. e.g. if you NX into a server and then VNC out from that to another machine, the result is unusably slow due to some interaction between the way NX and vnc work.) I have not been able to check this problem out yet, but it generates a cloud of uncertainty as to being able to use VMWare in this recipe.
Further complicating the situation are these 2 items:
1. There is another web-site from which they will be getting binaries for the control systems of restaurant equipment. They download the patches some way and then hotsync them to a palm. They will then take the palm and hotsync it to the equipment to load the new binary. This is *all* I know about it at this point except that it works under Windows. This needs to be done on the same workstation that needs the Mapsco.
2. The client went out and bought an HP 5610 scanner/printer and also wants this to be installed on that station. They need to be able to scan documents and email them to techs. Fortunately, they happened to select a multifunction that is well supported by the HP opensource drivers. (Thank heaven for small miracles.) CentOS 4.3 does not support it, but FC4+ does. This is also to be attached to the same workstation.
Obviously, a Windows box would do all of this since the makers of all the pieces primarily target Windows. I'd be running the windows NX client on it to keep them on the Linux server for most stuff.
Now as to whether I could make Linux do all this, I don't know. But the challenges are many and a bit daunting to me. Perhaps a better question is whether I can make Linux do all this *well*, or would I be pounding a round peg into a square hole, making Linux look bad in the end? Part of the problem is lack of complete info; I just found out about all this yesterday. I would start off with an FC5 workstation. It would be a complete install so that it could run a local desktop. And it would have NX client to remote in to OKC for the regular desktop work.
Essentially, the problems fall into 2 categories. "Linux vs Windows / Firefox vs IE". And "Local desktop vs running everything over the 768kbit pipe".
Plus, of course, with Windows it's all supported, whereas under Linux, I'm on my own. And plus, of course, I can't ethically bill for all the time that will be involved beyond what I would estimate it would take under Windows, but I'm used to that.
dinotrac:
Blasphemy! Rumors and propaganda! Don't think I can't see through your evil plot to get Toadie and Spinslikeatop elected! The mighty lynx shall be your downfall. I'll get you for trying to ruin my hard-won reputation. And your little dog, too.
It may be a public duty for citizens to protest when FEMA only allows IE connections in a disaster area but most of the time with companies you can only argue dollars and cents. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any requirement of accessibility for U.S. websites like there is in the UK. Of course, their requirements don't carry a lot of weight because they don't enforce them.
Sometimes when I make contact with reality, I email businesses which lose my business due to IE/ActiveX requirements.
(Other times I just send in squads of rampaging, rabid Ninja snails to torment them).
Blasphemy! Rumors and propaganda! Don't think I can't see through your evil plot to get Toadie and Spinslikeatop elected! The mighty lynx shall be your downfall. I'll get you for trying to ruin my hard-won reputation. And your little dog, too.
It may be a public duty for citizens to protest when FEMA only allows IE connections in a disaster area but most of the time with companies you can only argue dollars and cents. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any requirement of accessibility for U.S. websites like there is in the UK. Of course, their requirements don't carry a lot of weight because they don't enforce them.
Sometimes when I make contact with reality, I email businesses which lose my business due to IE/ActiveX requirements.
(Other times I just send in squads of rampaging, rabid Ninja snails to torment them).
grouch:
Please leave my little dog out of this.
Poor Jeffry.
He's actually a bit of a moose for a Chihuahua, weighing in at nearly 7 pounds. Unfortunately, the other household animals are not Chihuahuas.
He had sort of come to terms with the cats, who no longer beat him up for the sport of it. However, my daughter recently moved back home until she can get a new apartment, and she brought her Pomeranian with her.
Unlike Jeffry, who is properly short-haired and tautly muscled -- as macho as you can get at 7 pounds -- the Pom is all fluffy and frou-frou looking. Unfortunately, he is also a 9 pound monster who torments Jeffry.
So, really, lay off the little dog. He's got enough to worry about right now.
Please leave my little dog out of this.
Poor Jeffry.
He's actually a bit of a moose for a Chihuahua, weighing in at nearly 7 pounds. Unfortunately, the other household animals are not Chihuahuas.
He had sort of come to terms with the cats, who no longer beat him up for the sport of it. However, my daughter recently moved back home until she can get a new apartment, and she brought her Pomeranian with her.
Unlike Jeffry, who is properly short-haired and tautly muscled -- as macho as you can get at 7 pounds -- the Pom is all fluffy and frou-frou looking. Unfortunately, he is also a 9 pound monster who torments Jeffry.
So, really, lay off the little dog. He's got enough to worry about right now.
> Unlike Jeffry, who is properly short-haired and tautly muscled -- as macho as you can get at 7 pounds -- the Pom is all fluffy and frou-frou looking. Unfortunately, he is also a 9 pound monster who torments Jeffry.
Kinda hard to blame him, though. It must be a rare opportunity (for a Pom).
Kinda hard to blame him, though. It must be a rare opportunity (for a Pom).
You're both killing me. I had to wipe my eyes to finish the animal tale, then again at the vision of an opportunistic bully Pomeranian.
> then again at the vision of an opportunistic bully Pomeranian.
Former Microsoft employee, I believe.
Former Microsoft employee, I believe.
> And "Local desktop vs running everything over the 768kbit pipe".
768 kbit pipe. Eck. Don't try it. Even with a full T1 running apps over the line is iffy. Half that is really bad. Now if you're just talking remote desktop, then it's maybe doable, but I'd still go the local desktop route.
768 kbit pipe. Eck. Don't try it. Even with a full T1 running apps over the line is iffy. Half that is really bad. Now if you're just talking remote desktop, then it's maybe doable, but I'd still go the local desktop route.
Jdixon,
It sounds like you have not used NX. I would encourage you to try it out. The server side is OSS. The client is still proprietary but free as in beer. A free kde client is in the works, though. A full remote desktop can run with acceptable speed over a 56k modem. It's pretty amazing. Far, far better than VNC. And it relies heavily on ssh, so authentication is a combination of key based + password based and everything runs over an ssh tunnel automatically. Sliced bread has nothing on NX. ;-)
Since my last post, I have had a chance to bring up a session to the server in question and run mapsco in IE via VMWare and it's a bit sluggish but still pretty usable. It's good enough that I could present it as a solution.
That leaves the scanner and the palm sync thingie. The scanner is supposed to be fully supported. I don't have it here yet, though. Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with SANE (the software, not the mental condition) and whatever front ends it has. I hope they are good.
As to the palm bit. The frymaster site, while being totally flash based, is actually pretty good with firefox compatibility. They are one of the rare sites that I have made specific problem reports to and they come back in a timely manner and say "Oh, we're so sorry about the problem with firefox. We're working on it". And then, wonder of wonders, they actually fix it. So I think there is a good chance that I'll be able to nab the binaries with FF. It will then be up to evolution, I guess, to handle the hot syncing. Hopefully, its just does the generic file transfer conduit or whatever it's called. Unfortunately, not being an organized person, I am not really familiar with syncing to/from Evolution. The good news is that in a rare fit of trying to get organized, I did buy a palm a while back. So I have something to test with. Now, if I could only remember what I did with the hotsync cradle...
So I might just pull this off. And if I can't come up with a Linux solution that I can present and be proud of, I always have the Borg option to fall back on, I guess.
It sounds like you have not used NX. I would encourage you to try it out. The server side is OSS. The client is still proprietary but free as in beer. A free kde client is in the works, though. A full remote desktop can run with acceptable speed over a 56k modem. It's pretty amazing. Far, far better than VNC. And it relies heavily on ssh, so authentication is a combination of key based + password based and everything runs over an ssh tunnel automatically. Sliced bread has nothing on NX. ;-)
Since my last post, I have had a chance to bring up a session to the server in question and run mapsco in IE via VMWare and it's a bit sluggish but still pretty usable. It's good enough that I could present it as a solution.
That leaves the scanner and the palm sync thingie. The scanner is supposed to be fully supported. I don't have it here yet, though. Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with SANE (the software, not the mental condition) and whatever front ends it has. I hope they are good.
As to the palm bit. The frymaster site, while being totally flash based, is actually pretty good with firefox compatibility. They are one of the rare sites that I have made specific problem reports to and they come back in a timely manner and say "Oh, we're so sorry about the problem with firefox. We're working on it". And then, wonder of wonders, they actually fix it. So I think there is a good chance that I'll be able to nab the binaries with FF. It will then be up to evolution, I guess, to handle the hot syncing. Hopefully, its just does the generic file transfer conduit or whatever it's called. Unfortunately, not being an organized person, I am not really familiar with syncing to/from Evolution. The good news is that in a rare fit of trying to get organized, I did buy a palm a while back. So I have something to test with. Now, if I could only remember what I did with the hotsync cradle...
So I might just pull this off. And if I can't come up with a Linux solution that I can present and be proud of, I always have the Borg option to fall back on, I guess.
>"1. There is another web-site from which they will be getting binaries for the control systems of restaurant equipment."
I don't know why, but this caused me to remember the DeLaval Linux-powered voluntary milking machine.
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8308307720.html
Maybe a restaurant could be devised along the same lines. I can just see citizens wandering into the stainless steel stalls and sensors leaping out to analyze what parts of the nutrition pyramid need to be stuffed into them to make good, healthy consumers.
I don't know why, but this caused me to remember the DeLaval Linux-powered voluntary milking machine.
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8308307720.html
Maybe a restaurant could be devised along the same lines. I can just see citizens wandering into the stainless steel stalls and sensors leaping out to analyze what parts of the nutrition pyramid need to be stuffed into them to make good, healthy consumers.
> It sounds like you have not used NX.
No, I haven't played with it. The non-open source client has kept me away from it when VNC is usable for the things I've needed to do.
> . A full remote desktop can run with acceptable speed over a 56k modem.
When the kde client get usable, I'll take a look.
No, I haven't played with it. The non-open source client has kept me away from it when VNC is usable for the things I've needed to do.
> . A full remote desktop can run with acceptable speed over a 56k modem.
When the kde client get usable, I'll take a look.
>"Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with SANE (the software, not the mental condition) and whatever front ends it has. I hope they are good."
Xsane (http://xsane.org) is usually much easier for users while sane's command line tools (such as scanimage) are scriptable for admins' use. Xsane will work on any MS Windows boxes you have to set up, also.
You might want to go through the "Preferences" and "Window" menu before turning them loose with it. Xsane's autoadjust button for gamma, brightness and contrast gets it good enough for almost all images, for me.
The last little office I set up, they only used the "Copier" mode and ignored all other options. They used it with a cheap HP PSC 1210 (bought by the PHB in spite of recommendation to wait for confirmation that it was supported). It worked well for them. Another office used Xsane with an old HP OfficeJet 500 and a Samsung mono laser printer. They did very little scanning compared to the amount of printing. By the time the OJ 500 wore out, they determined that a dedicated fax/copier would suit them better.
I haven't set anyone up with Xsane who needed its "email" mode or even used scanning extensively. Hope it works well for your situation.
Xsane (http://xsane.org) is usually much easier for users while sane's command line tools (such as scanimage) are scriptable for admins' use. Xsane will work on any MS Windows boxes you have to set up, also.
You might want to go through the "Preferences" and "Window" menu before turning them loose with it. Xsane's autoadjust button for gamma, brightness and contrast gets it good enough for almost all images, for me.
The last little office I set up, they only used the "Copier" mode and ignored all other options. They used it with a cheap HP PSC 1210 (bought by the PHB in spite of recommendation to wait for confirmation that it was supported). It worked well for them. Another office used Xsane with an old HP OfficeJet 500 and a Samsung mono laser printer. They did very little scanning compared to the amount of printing. By the time the OJ 500 wore out, they determined that a dedicated fax/copier would suit them better.
I haven't set anyone up with Xsane who needed its "email" mode or even used scanning extensively. Hope it works well for your situation.
> I haven't set anyone up with Xsane who needed its "email" mode
Email mode?! Email mode?! I hadn't dared to hope for such a thing.
I went by and picked up the equipment today. Fedora Core 5 installed without a hitch. The printer/scanner installed without a hitch and "just worked". xsane is part of the default desktop install. Within a few minutes I had an image scanned and emailed to myself.
I dug out my old Palm VII and serial print cradle. pilot-link seems to be working OK. I had some problems at first but they seem to have spontaneously resolved. I would think that if anything, a modern usb cradle would work better than the crufty old serial one.
By God, this plan might just work. I hope Frymaster doesn't torpedo me by having some special proprietary Windows only way of getting the binary from their web site to the palm.
> bought by the PHB in spite of recommendation to wait for confirmation that it was supported
Have you been stealing my clients?! (This sounds just like some of them.) And then, if it doesn't work, or you have difficulty with it, you get the inevitable question: "Is it not working because we're using Linux?" at which point I always have to resist the urge to reach out for a sharp object or breakable.
Email mode?! Email mode?! I hadn't dared to hope for such a thing.
I went by and picked up the equipment today. Fedora Core 5 installed without a hitch. The printer/scanner installed without a hitch and "just worked". xsane is part of the default desktop install. Within a few minutes I had an image scanned and emailed to myself.
I dug out my old Palm VII and serial print cradle. pilot-link seems to be working OK. I had some problems at first but they seem to have spontaneously resolved. I would think that if anything, a modern usb cradle would work better than the crufty old serial one.
By God, this plan might just work. I hope Frymaster doesn't torpedo me by having some special proprietary Windows only way of getting the binary from their web site to the palm.
> bought by the PHB in spite of recommendation to wait for confirmation that it was supported
Have you been stealing my clients?! (This sounds just like some of them.) And then, if it doesn't work, or you have difficulty with it, you get the inevitable question: "Is it not working because we're using Linux?" at which point I always have to resist the urge to reach out for a sharp object or breakable.
Steve --
I know this is the wrong place...but you seem to possess some wizardry that I seriously lack....
I'm trying to set up a plain ol' (ie - not wireless) Palm to use sync4j -- which requires connections to the internet. The Palm seems set up to dial out through a modem, but it's not clear how to hook it up into a network via its usb cable do the dhcp thing. I just have to believe that either
a) there is a tool out there for this,
or
b) I am complete clamhead missing something that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than day-old dryer lint.
I know this is the wrong place...but you seem to possess some wizardry that I seriously lack....
I'm trying to set up a plain ol' (ie - not wireless) Palm to use sync4j -- which requires connections to the internet. The Palm seems set up to dial out through a modem, but it's not clear how to hook it up into a network via its usb cable do the dhcp thing. I just have to believe that either
a) there is a tool out there for this,
or
b) I am complete clamhead missing something that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than day-old dryer lint.
Ha! It sounds like we _have_ talked to the same people. One PHB wanted to be very helpful and kept showing me trade journal ads for software he thought would be useful. In every case I was able to answer, "We have the equivalent functions already." It still took him a few months to go back to his specialty and stop trying to handle the software. Bless 'em, they have to deal with so many varied problems they sometimes get to thinking they're the best equipped to handle all problems.
If Frymaster has an existing MS Windows-only way of transferring the binary, maybe they could also provide a simple link to the file so you could pull it instead of them pushing it?
If Frymaster has an existing MS Windows-only way of transferring the binary, maybe they could also provide a simple link to the file so you could pull it instead of them pushing it?
Dino:
> a) there is a tool out there for this,
> or
> b) I am complete clamhead missing something that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than day-old dryer lint.
Nah, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. :(
I've setup a few Palms under Windows, and in the Windows world, the type of connection is normally set up in the Palm software on the Windows side, not in the handheld itself.
> a) there is a tool out there for this,
> or
> b) I am complete clamhead missing something that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than day-old dryer lint.
Nah, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. :(
I've setup a few Palms under Windows, and in the Windows world, the type of connection is normally set up in the Palm software on the Windows side, not in the handheld itself.
jdixon -
Ah!!
Crap.
Sounds like I need to sweet-talk my wife out of her notebook for a bit just to get a connection going and understand what works.....
Ah!!
Crap.
Sounds like I need to sweet-talk my wife out of her notebook for a bit just to get a connection going and understand what works.....
Steve --
(To sound of nose scraping floor)
I am not worthy! I am not worthy!
Thanks.
(To sound of nose scraping floor)
I am not worthy! I am not worthy!
Thanks.
Steve -
PS --
Works. Yahoo!!! (Or Google, as the case may be!!)
PS --
Works. Yahoo!!! (Or Google, as the case may be!!)
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Not to worry. It's the "You can only read what I type, you can't see me nodding my head in sympathy" nature of internet discussions.
I'm relieved...other threads have revealed you to have actual reasoning capacity and sense of reality.