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Novell’s Linux Business Does NOT Climb Since its Deal with Microsoft
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Comments (68)
48 earlier comments in the full thread.
Quoting:It's probably needless to say that I disagree.I consider that a personal choice and doesn't deserve any discussion.
Well, I do have to say that I agree with the assessment that dino does indeed operate under a bias. It's shameful that he insists on cold hard facts instead of opinions. I as well as many others have gone head to head with Mr. D. and right or wrong the only way you can score any points is with accurate analysis of facts.
Say what you will. boycottnovell has and continues to post what could be considered borderline slander. For some of you who insist (rightly so) of including past histories in dealing with certain other companies, take that same advice when dealing with people who are "on your side".
Even when he is turning his attention painfully my way, I still prefer to be able to argue what actually is rather than an opinion of what is or should be. Facts are fact and opinions are ... you know the rest of that one.
Say what you will. boycottnovell has and continues to post what could be considered borderline slander. For some of you who insist (rightly so) of including past histories in dealing with certain other companies, take that same advice when dealing with people who are "on your side".
Even when he is turning his attention painfully my way, I still prefer to be able to argue what actually is rather than an opinion of what is or should be. Facts are fact and opinions are ... you know the rest of that one.
azerthoth -
**blush**
Just remember: I'm merely brilliant, not infallible!
**blush**
Just remember: I'm merely brilliant, not infallible!
oh no, here comes the group hug.
/me runs
/me runs
> It's shameful that he insists on cold hard facts instead of opinions.
Azerthoth:
OK. I've largely stayed out of this, but I think my point about personal biases was reasonably clear, and yet you don't seem to be happy with it. So, taking the facts as we know them...
Fact 1. Novell's Linux sales have been growing, both before and after the Microsoft deal. Fact 2. It appears, based on figures released by Novell spokesmen, that their Linux sales have grown faster in the time frame immediately following the Microsoft deal. Fact 3. We have no idea at what rate Novell's Linux sales will grow in the future.
Please not that Fact 2 does not demonstrate in any way that there is a causal relationship between the Microsoft deal and the increase in sales. While that's a reasonable assumption to make, it's not provable with the information we have.
I believe BoycottNovell's main position on the above is that Fact 2 is due to the onetime sales of the Microsoft coupons, and will not be repeated. Beyond that I found their arguments impossible to follow (to be fair, I didn't try too hard), but I think the gist of it was that statements by Novell spokespeople should not be trusted.
Both seem to be reasonable positions, though rather extremely and poorly stated. The first is a conclusion which will proven correct or not over the next year or so and the second is a standard rule which should apply to all company spokespeople.
Now, is there anything in the above with which you, Abe, or Dino have problems.
Please note that it's perfectly reasonable for people of different backgrounds to reach different conclusions about the future when presented with the same facts.
Finally, I think it's a good idea to actually define bias for those who might disagree with my usage of the term. I'll use the http://www.m-w.comcgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search... definition, since that's readily available via Firefox's search box. The relative definition is:
3 a : BENT, TENDENCY b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment...
Note that the definition does NOT say that the bias is wrong or that it even has to be unreasonable. Merely that it is a tendency or inclination.
Azerthoth:
OK. I've largely stayed out of this, but I think my point about personal biases was reasonably clear, and yet you don't seem to be happy with it. So, taking the facts as we know them...
Fact 1. Novell's Linux sales have been growing, both before and after the Microsoft deal. Fact 2. It appears, based on figures released by Novell spokesmen, that their Linux sales have grown faster in the time frame immediately following the Microsoft deal. Fact 3. We have no idea at what rate Novell's Linux sales will grow in the future.
Please not that Fact 2 does not demonstrate in any way that there is a causal relationship between the Microsoft deal and the increase in sales. While that's a reasonable assumption to make, it's not provable with the information we have.
I believe BoycottNovell's main position on the above is that Fact 2 is due to the onetime sales of the Microsoft coupons, and will not be repeated. Beyond that I found their arguments impossible to follow (to be fair, I didn't try too hard), but I think the gist of it was that statements by Novell spokespeople should not be trusted.
Both seem to be reasonable positions, though rather extremely and poorly stated. The first is a conclusion which will proven correct or not over the next year or so and the second is a standard rule which should apply to all company spokespeople.
Now, is there anything in the above with which you, Abe, or Dino have problems.
Please note that it's perfectly reasonable for people of different backgrounds to reach different conclusions about the future when presented with the same facts.
Finally, I think it's a good idea to actually define bias for those who might disagree with my usage of the term. I'll use the http://www.m-w.comcgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search... definition, since that's readily available via Firefox's search box. The relative definition is:
3 a : BENT, TENDENCY b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment...
Note that the definition does NOT say that the bias is wrong or that it even has to be unreasonable. Merely that it is a tendency or inclination.
/me runs
Come back here, you old TC, you. You get some love, too.
Mandatory PC disclaimer:
"Love" is used in a purely platonic, gender-neutral fashion that makes no reference to briefs, boxers, or any other form of undergarment. In the event I have inadvertently made reference to a form of undergarment with which I am hitherto unaware, I will do my best to inflate until I explode, flinging little bits of dino and trac against the walls, ceiling and floor.
Come back here, you old TC, you. You get some love, too.
Mandatory PC disclaimer:
"Love" is used in a purely platonic, gender-neutral fashion that makes no reference to briefs, boxers, or any other form of undergarment. In the event I have inadvertently made reference to a form of undergarment with which I am hitherto unaware, I will do my best to inflate until I explode, flinging little bits of dino and trac against the walls, ceiling and floor.
Quoting:Fact 1. Novell's Linux sales have been growing, both before and after the Microsoft deal. Fact 2. It appears, based on figures released by Novell spokesmen, that their Linux sales have grown faster in the time frame immediately following the Microsoft deal. Fact 3. We have no idea at what rate Novell's Linux sales will grow in the future.
I have no issue with any of them three and I don't believe I raised any issues in my previous posts either.
As a matter of fact, my main point was agreeing on "Fact 3." which was initially brought by hchaudh1.
But I did present my perspective about "Fact 2.". In my opinion, the artificial high increase (spike) in Novell's Linux sales we see was due to the voucher offer by MS.
That was my major point, but unfortunately, Dino being a former lawyer, kept slip sliding to other matters.
JD, I wasnt leveling anything directly at you. Basicly I started out with commenting on dino's apparent bias and then kind of got on a roll.
> I wasnt leveling anything directly at you.
I wasn't offended, Azerthoth. I just didn't like the way you seemed to blow off my point, which is that all of us have biases. Pretending that they're for "cold hard facts" misses the point entirely. It's our interpretation of the facts that reflects our biases.
Dino has consistently taken Novell's side in these discussions, to the point of calling many folks who disagree with the Microsoft deal irrational (my apologies if that's not quite your phrasing, Dino). While that's a valid viewpoint, and may even be correct, it's still a bias, and has proven to be a consistent one. I've consistently thought the deal was a bad idea, even if it has short term good results for Novell, which is also a bias.
I wasn't offended, Azerthoth. I just didn't like the way you seemed to blow off my point, which is that all of us have biases. Pretending that they're for "cold hard facts" misses the point entirely. It's our interpretation of the facts that reflects our biases.
Dino has consistently taken Novell's side in these discussions, to the point of calling many folks who disagree with the Microsoft deal irrational (my apologies if that's not quite your phrasing, Dino). While that's a valid viewpoint, and may even be correct, it's still a bias, and has proven to be a consistent one. I've consistently thought the deal was a bad idea, even if it has short term good results for Novell, which is also a bias.
>it's still a bias,
Sounds like you don't actually understand what a bias is.
I get up every morning and say "good morning" to somebody. I am very consistent about that. I say good morning to my wife, to my kids, and to the crew down at Starbucks.
In no way does that reflect a bias on my part towards morning. I like morning, but I like afternoon, too. It just so happens that, when I get up, it happens to be morning.
Refusing to budge when the facts clearly don't support you may or may reflect a bias. It might be a bias that makes you unwilling to consider opposing facts. It might be cussed stubbornness.
Going with the facts and demanding the same of others, however, is not a bias. If I seem to be consistently on Novell's side (I'm not, by the way), it's because the attackers are along the lines of the boycottnovell folks.
When it comes to matter of opinion, I have a very definite bias. I like freedom and I dislike hypocrites. I especially dislike people who shout freedom -- but only so long as its the freedom they approve of, which, in the end, is not freedom at all.
Sounds like you don't actually understand what a bias is.
I get up every morning and say "good morning" to somebody. I am very consistent about that. I say good morning to my wife, to my kids, and to the crew down at Starbucks.
In no way does that reflect a bias on my part towards morning. I like morning, but I like afternoon, too. It just so happens that, when I get up, it happens to be morning.
Refusing to budge when the facts clearly don't support you may or may reflect a bias. It might be a bias that makes you unwilling to consider opposing facts. It might be cussed stubbornness.
Going with the facts and demanding the same of others, however, is not a bias. If I seem to be consistently on Novell's side (I'm not, by the way), it's because the attackers are along the lines of the boycottnovell folks.
When it comes to matter of opinion, I have a very definite bias. I like freedom and I dislike hypocrites. I especially dislike people who shout freedom -- but only so long as its the freedom they approve of, which, in the end, is not freedom at all.
> Sounds like you don't actually understand what a bias is.
I think my understand of what does and does not constitute a bias on the part of others is fairly good, Dino. I may not be quite as good at spotting it in myself. Fortunately, my wife is quite willing to point out my failings to me.
I think you're using a different definition of bias.
> If I seem to be consistently on Novell's side (I'm not, by the way)
I assume that's true, but it's not demonstrated by the conversations here, at least with regards to the Novell/Microsoft deal.
> ...it's because the attackers are along the lines of the boycottnovell folks.
Abe has not demonstrated himself to be "along the lines of the boycottnovell folks". Nor has hchaudh1. Nor have I.
I think my understand of what does and does not constitute a bias on the part of others is fairly good, Dino. I may not be quite as good at spotting it in myself. Fortunately, my wife is quite willing to point out my failings to me.
I think you're using a different definition of bias.
> If I seem to be consistently on Novell's side (I'm not, by the way)
I assume that's true, but it's not demonstrated by the conversations here, at least with regards to the Novell/Microsoft deal.
> ...it's because the attackers are along the lines of the boycottnovell folks.
Abe has not demonstrated himself to be "along the lines of the boycottnovell folks". Nor has hchaudh1. Nor have I.
Abe hasn't?
That's a joke, right?
More complete answer:
This thread started from a boycottnovell article and the arguments within. In that regard, everything I have said has been in opposition to those arguments.
You don't have to love Novell to despise dishonest arguments. That is, unless you have no personal integrity.
That's a joke, right?
More complete answer:
This thread started from a boycottnovell article and the arguments within. In that regard, everything I have said has been in opposition to those arguments.
You don't have to love Novell to despise dishonest arguments. That is, unless you have no personal integrity.
> That's a joke, right?
Do you really think the folks at BoycottNovell would bother discussing the matter with you the way Abe has? They'd call you a Novell shill and kick you off the site. They'd be mistaken, of course, but as far as I can tell that's what they'd do.
Do you really think the folks at BoycottNovell would bother discussing the matter with you the way Abe has? They'd call you a Novell shill and kick you off the site. They'd be mistaken, of course, but as far as I can tell that's what they'd do.
>Do you really think the folks at BoycottNovell would bother discussing the matter with you the way Abe has?
No, but we were talking bias, not civility. Abe is a passionate but civil kind of guy.
No, but we were talking bias, not civility. Abe is a passionate but civil kind of guy.
> No, but we were talking bias, not civility.
It always been my experience that an extreme bias on a subject results in incivility to those who disagree. I think the BoycottNovell folks might fall into that category. Abe obviously doesn't.
Oh, and I saw this: http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20071002.html this morning and thought you might appreciate it. :)
It always been my experience that an extreme bias on a subject results in incivility to those who disagree. I think the BoycottNovell folks might fall into that category. Abe obviously doesn't.
Oh, and I saw this: http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20071002.html this morning and thought you might appreciate it. :)
>an extreme bias on a subject results in incivility
It can, but need not. Though infected by many years in yankeeland, I come from the south and from a southern family. There are some old southern traditions of grace and courtesy, including the all-pupose "That's just not the way we do things around here". Which is a soft-spoken, smiling and gracious "fornicate you and the horse you rode in on". I'm sure many other places have similar traditions.
Abe, btw, is not quite extreme. Just a bit hard-headed.
It can, but need not. Though infected by many years in yankeeland, I come from the south and from a southern family. There are some old southern traditions of grace and courtesy, including the all-pupose "That's just not the way we do things around here". Which is a soft-spoken, smiling and gracious "fornicate you and the horse you rode in on". I'm sure many other places have similar traditions.
Abe, btw, is not quite extreme. Just a bit hard-headed.
> There are some old southern traditions of grace and courtesy,
Tis true that I live a bit too close to Yankee land for my comfort. That may be influencing my viewpoint. A "bias", so to speak. :)
> Just a bit hard-headed.
That could be said of a number of us.
Tis true that I live a bit too close to Yankee land for my comfort. That may be influencing my viewpoint. A "bias", so to speak. :)
> Just a bit hard-headed.
That could be said of a number of us.
Keep going guys, I am enjoying this.
Thanks for the complements by the way.
Hard-headed! may be at times, but mostly very reasonable. On the other hand, look to who is talking.
Thanks for the complements by the way.
Hard-headed! may be at times, but mostly very reasonable. On the other hand, look to who is talking.
>On the other hand, look to who is talking.
I could be hard-headed if I weren't right all the time.
I could be hard-headed if I weren't right all the time.
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That would be an interesting discussion in an of itself, but this isn't really the place for it. It's probably needless to say that I disagree.