Pamela Jones: It's Goodbye to Mandriva

Here is what PJ said, since there's no way to link directly to the relevant News Pick:

Quoting: [PJ: I guess this is goodbye then, for me, as far as Mandriva goes. I've used it for years and really loved it, and I thank them for helping me get to use Linux. But TurboLinux signed a patent deal with Microsoft, joined Ecma to help out with MSOOXML, participates in the Interoperability Vendor Alliance, uses Windows Media and made Live Search the default. So you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what all that means. Since Mandriva and Turbolinux are sharing code now, I don't trust the code so it's a fond farewell from me.]

All righty then. Steve Ballmer breathes air, so I'm going to stop breathing air. Bill Gates eats food, so I'm going to stop eating food. PJ, please return to planet Earth. This has nothing to do with Microsoft.

Quoting: The new common base will be released under the GPL license and the companies have expressed their wish to open the partnership to other RPM-based Linux distributions editors.

The GPL is proof against even Microsoft cooties. It is better for the various Linuxes and FOSS players to help each other get stronger and better, instead of vigilantly searching for reasons to criticize and punish each other. And to help and encourage proprietary, closed-source companies make use of and contribute to FOSS. Paranoia and parochialism are not FOSS values.

Thanks, Carla. Useful and reassuring info.

"Paranoia and parochialism" are associated/connotated with aliments by the way. Being alert and watching out for things isn't over the line, especially given some of the stuff you find in the Halloween Memos.

Quoting:All righty then. Steve Ballmer breathes air, so I'm going to stop breathing air. Bill Gates eats food, so I'm going to stop eating food.

If either Steve or Bill tells me that "1+1=2", I'll still want independent corroboration.

No, I don't trust them, especially when they say "we won't sue."

Does the act of reaching an agreement with Microsoft ("doing a deal") automatically make one evil? Is it impossible to work in a environment that includes Microsoft without being evil?

If so, I would suggest that most of us are evil indeed. How many have accepted one or more of Microsoft's EULAs?

>Does the act of reaching an agreement with Microsoft ("doing a deal") automatically make one evil?

Exactly.

Businesses gotta do business and people gotta work. Heck lots of people even like Microsoft stuff, or, at the very least, really like something that needs Windows (or Office) to work.

There is one more thing that people forget -- something that certainly played into both the Apple and Novell deals...

When the Devil is beating you up anyway, an enforcable deal with the Devil can afford a little bit of protection and a chance to lick your wounds. Not to mention a whomping big pile of cash.

> Does the act of reaching an agreement with Microsoft ("doing a deal") automatically make one evil?

No. It makes you stupid, but not evil. Microsoft can never be trusted to honor agreements, so it's pointless to make one with them. Just ask Stac and Sun, among many.

> Is it impossible to work in a environment that includes Microsoft without being evil?

No.

jdixon:

You have ignored the last paragraph of my post. Have you entered into an agreement with Microsoft? Have you agreed to an EULA?

> Microsoft can never be trusted to honor agreements, so it's pointless to make one with them. Just ask Stac and Sun, among many.

Umm...

Do you really want to make that argument? If everybody were trustworthy, nobody would need written contracts, just to-do lists.

Microsoft ended up paying big piles of money to both of those companies.

Nice thing about a legal agreement is that it's legally enforcable and damages can be recovered.

> You have ignored the last paragraph of my post.

Since my post said that it was possible to work in an environment with Microsoft without being evil, I didn't think it was necessary.

> Have you entered into an agreement with Microsoft? Have you agreed to an EULA?

Other than the occasional test install of IE or some such, which is soon removed, no. At least not since Windows 3.1. The only copies of Microsoft software I use are work related, and it that case it's my employer who's agreeing to the license, not me.

> Nice thing about a legal agreement is that it's legally enforcable and damages can be recovered.

Yes, they can. At a considerable cost in time and money. The money will be reimbursed when Microsoft loses the case, of course, but nothing makes up for the lost time.

You also have to take into account that no legal outcome is certain. Even if everything is in your favor, you can't guarantee you'll win. Look at Apple's use of OS 9, which was an already in use as the name of a competing operating system. Apple should not have been able to use it. The rights holder took them to court. They lost. Then there's the fact that given Microsoft's money, there's no guarantee a smaller company will be able to sustain their case long enough to win or collect.

In short, making an agreement with Microsoft and expecting them to keep it is a fool's bet, and not probably not worth the trouble. Ask Sun if they would do so again knowing what they know now.

In the context of a work environment:

> Have you entered into an agreement with Microsoft? Have you agreed to an EULA?

Indirectly, yes. As an employee, I have entered into an agreement with an entity, which itself has signed a contract with Microsoft. I am required to speak and act in such a way as to uphold my employer's working relationships, and not endanger them.

If I find the terms of the Microsoft EULA onerous, and not worth the paid compensation of my employer, I am free to pursue employment elsewhere.

Here is my agreement with m$: STAY OFF MY LAWN!

Quoting: Does the act of reaching an agreement with Microsoft ("doing a deal") automatically make one evil?

Mandriva did not enter into a deal with Microsoft. As to the question, it depends on the deal.

Quoting: Is it impossible to work in a environment that includes Microsoft without being evil?

Of course it is. Like the Samba team, for one example. Do please notice how Microsoft is slowly but inevitably being forced to dance to a tune not their own. This is huge, and no one else has been able to do this. FOSS is mighty powerz.

> Of course it is.

So, the Samba team is evil then? I think you need to re-read the question TC. It's phrased as a negative. "Is it impossible...", That's why I said no. Obviously it's possible to work in an environment with Microsoft without being evil yourself.

er, what jdixon said. :)

I detest Microsoft's unethical practices as much as the next person. Every win for FOSS over Microsoft is a reason to celebrate. ...You think there's a 'but' coming don't you? Well, there's not.

HOWEVER, (sneaky grin) to suggest that we all must ignore the realities of the world we live in and shun anything even remotely associated with Microsoft is naive and self destructive. We may as well shun water. Microsoft is a fact of business. They are so pervasive that even enterprises which are 100% FOSS driven must deal with their technology daily. To ignore that reality is to become a societal recluse. To constantly insist that your peers turn away from that reality makes you look (to them) like a nutcase.

Realities are slow to change. The ubiquitousness of Microsoft is changing, slowly. Linux is winning, slowly. We can accept the rate of change and work with it or we can stubbornly refuse anything other than immediate withdrawal. To choose the latter is to surrender both the successes of the past and the hope for the future.

[Steps off soap-box.]

NoDough, The voice of reason always sounds, well, reasonable. My nutcase stance may be wrong but those that sleep with m$ will end up with a horrible STD.

Quoting:STD

Software Transmitted Disease?

What's the Shaw quote about the reasonable man and the unreasonable man? Oh yeah:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him... The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself... All progress depends on the unreasonable man."

(Aside to Stallman: Shut the %!%$# up for once, OK?)

The problem though is that Turbolinux and Microsoft have signed an agreement with one another. By principle, I wouldn't have anything to do with a company that has legitimized Microsoft's patent claims. That is also the reason I will never run Linspire ever again.