We need a command line/textfile OS for newbies
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Teron Jul 05, 2006 11:47 AM EDT |
"I do not understand why people consider editing a text file to be difficult or unrefined." Ever heard a statement like that from an advanced Linux user? It's pretty likely you have, or are of that mindset yourself. Why do people consider text-based tools as difficult? The first reason is that people frankly aren't used to it. They've lived on Windows, where everything is GUI, pretty much nothing is CLI. To many of those are people the inner workings of computers and OSes are pure magic. There's little that can be done for them, at least in the short term. Then there's the likes of me: Somewhat techy non-coders who're not afraid of the command line or config files, per se, but would like an easy-to-understand, comprehensive guide to the stuff. Or, even better, what about an OS that is focused on teaching the CLI/.conf-file approach to the newbie? I don't mean decent commenting, but concrete, hand-holding, newb-friendly howtos on doing whatever they wish by using CLI and .conf files. Lots of them. Like, you have the likes of SUSE Control Center. If I click on an item, it asks for a password and then opens a howto and a text file. This howto demonstrates how stuff is done, and perhaps has an "expand" button that expands the article to address the issue in greater detail. Ideally, the system would have a customized virtual machine setup for testing the .conf files without hosing your system. Did they do what I wanted? Good. They didn't work? Let's see the friendly howto. Perhaps it can explain what went wrong and then correct the mistake. Creating such a system would require insane amounts of patience due to the huge amounts of howto material required, and wouldn't convert all that many PC=magic people to the CLI approach. But, for me, this kind of a distro would be ideal for learning my system inside out. CLI fans, please go out and start that distro. I'm pretty sure people willing to learn the CLI would jump at the chance. I know I would. |
| pogson Jul 09, 2006 6:34 AM EDT |
For the techie or computer science student interested in details, just use bash from a terminal. Realistically, the CLI is limiting for the power desktop user. It is fine for remote management via ssh for a router or server, but how can one keep up with six desktops running multiple gui apps from CLI? The majority of end users will use the GUI, so KDE/GNOME/etc are needed and effort has to be put into making them as smooth as possible. They have been usable for a long time, but there are still little gaps between the features. I am still annoyed that some apps do not seem to communicate well with my clipboard. A newbie I introduced was having problems with accessing his floppy from GNOME. I always use CLI for that, so I had to learn the GNOME widgets with him. The hand-eye coordination needed to do something like that is ten times easier for the newbie to pick up so they can get on doing what they do. That most GUIs just tweak the CLI is just a higher-level abstraction. I use CLI instead of wading through five menus but it depends on the task. Simple things are almost always faster with CLI. Complex tasks are almost always faster with GUI. It is useful to do both and most of the distros I have used permit both. An exception is something like Smoothwall. It is a text only firewall, period. Enjoy the choice. |
| sbergman27 Jul 09, 2006 7:18 AM EDT |
> Why do people consider text-based tools as difficult? One more reason. The Unix/Linux command line is an ugly hodge-podge of whimsical conventions which has been haphazardly grafted on to over a period of 30-40 years by countless parties, each with totally different ideas about what is proper syntax. ps aux? pf -ef? ps a --user x? tar xvlf? tar ---extract --verbose --one-file-system --file? How about Bourne shell/Bash's wacky syntax and the all too frequent need to escape strings and then escape the escapes? That's before you get into anything that really *has* to be complicated like regex's. At least systems come with more newbie friendly, if less powerful editors than vi these days. We haven't even gotten to the part where there are as many config file formats as there are programs that use them. And that's before you even get to the nuts and bolts of what the actual options do. I've been using the Unix command line since 1988 and am far more at home on a text console than in a gui. But there is no doubt that it's not exactly beautiful. So I would say that one of the reasons newbies are afraid of the command line is that it looks hard, and in fact *is* hard. At least, harder than it needed to be. Powerful? Yes! Yes! Yes! Easy? No!!! Of course, as long as the newbie doesn't have to wade in too deep, and has some help from a forum, it's survivable. Just to be clear, the *core* ideas of the unix command line are elegant and beautiful. The modern, real world implementation of those ideas is not. I've never used OS/2. But I'll bet IBM did it in a more approachable way. Didn't they use rexx or something? |
| dinotrac Jul 09, 2006 7:45 AM EDT |
Pssst...Steve.... Let's not forget intuitively obvious friends like: grep mv (to rename) top less nice My favorite may be man, which will bring up useful information if you know it's there, but is useless if, say, you're looking for "help", or even "manual". |
| sbergman27 Jul 09, 2006 8:26 AM EDT |
One of my favorite quotes from the Unix Hater's Handbook is about X. Not really about command line or text based tools, but kind of fits in here. And it is funny because it is soooo true: ======= """If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that. - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation """ ======= Things are much better now. But it has taken 20 years for standard conventions to iron things out. |
| hkwint Jul 09, 2006 2:39 PM EDT |
Quoting:top less nice Topless nice... Easy enough to remember for the newbie, huh? Anyway, I agree it is a good idea to make a learning CLI distro. Gentoo comes close to it, especially if a lot of the docs were integrated in the command-line. Furthermore, GNU lacks the examples of the BSD manuals. Examples really should be added to manuals, and 'info' is not that user friendly! Two panels, with a CLI right and help left, with help items changing on the fly while you type, sounds like a good idea to me. |
| dinotrac Jul 09, 2006 2:48 PM EDT |
>Topless nice... Easy enough to remember for the newbie, huh? Who said Unix ain't sexy? |
| sbergman27 Jul 09, 2006 3:12 PM EDT |
I don't understand. Eunuchs ain't sexy more or less by definition. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 09, 2006 3:24 PM EDT |
GROAN *pass out* *die* |
| dinotrac Jul 09, 2006 4:06 PM EDT |
Hey Carla, You got some kinda problem or sumpin'? |
| tuxchick2 Jul 09, 2006 4:17 PM EDT |
Not anymore, now that I'm dead from horrid geek puns. At least they weren't recursive. |
| grouch Jul 09, 2006 6:15 PM EDT |
man man |
| jimf Jul 09, 2006 6:39 PM EDT |
actually man | |-- man |
| hkwint Jul 09, 2006 11:39 PM EDT |
Ok, back to the topic. There was more than that chick unfriendly joke in my reaction. |
| Teron Jul 10, 2006 12:08 AM EDT |
Oops. Sorry, what I meant by CLI in this situation is the terminal. You know, a distro like Slack that lacks pretty much all GUI-based configuration stuff, but one that is friendly and teaches people how to configure stuff from the terminal. Sorry for the confusion. |
| jimf Jul 10, 2006 12:56 AM EDT |
>'We need a command line/textfile OS for newbies' No... We don't. And, if someone were to go to the trouble of making one, only a tiny percentage of new users would even glance at it. Most would probably run the other way. New users just don't get into the command line until they 'absolutely have to'. When the do finally ask (out of necessity) there are already numerous help and information sites which deal with command line / terminal usage on the Internet, and of course the man pages. Older and more technically oriented users, especially those with previous command line experience in other OS will pick this up faster, but, most all will get it sooner or later. It's just part of the learning process. |
| peragrin Jul 10, 2006 6:18 AM EDT |
um you forgot man woman besides vi and emacs are a nghtmare to learn. joe or nano, are easy to pick up even for newbies. but show them a vi or emac's screen without instruction and you go huh? 9 out of 10 won't even be able to quit it without help. |
| dcparris Jul 10, 2006 4:29 PM EDT |
> besides vi and emacs are a nghtmare to learn. joe or nano, are easy to pick up even for newbies. but show them a vi or emac's screen without instruction and you go huh? 9 out of 10 won't even be able to quit it without help. Lol. I remember my first vi and emacs sessions (circa Red Hat 5.1). Good thing the opening screen tells you how to get help. The problem is, I was too gung ho, and cleared the help screen to start working. Then I couldn't figure out how to do anything or quit - or how to get help to quit. Oops! Don't ask how I finally got out of it. I really don't remember. |
| sbergman27 Jul 10, 2006 4:35 PM EDT |
> I remember my first vi and emacs sessions (circa Red Hat 5.1). Good thing the opening screen tells you how to get help In vi, help just takes you further into the trap. Then you've got to get the ":q!" command right *twice* to get out. I wonder how many new users have had to reboot their machines to exit vi? |
| grouch Jul 10, 2006 6:33 PM EDT |
PCs have electrical cords just to act as emergency exits from vi. If pulling the cord causes vi to report "recording" on the screen, consider 12 gauge, number 6 field load at 10 paces. This almost always causes vi to give up. |
| hkwint Jul 11, 2006 4:11 PM EDT |
Ctrl-Alt-Somewhere-else, kill -9 was my way. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 11, 2006 4:14 PM EDT |
grouch: or stompy boots |
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