Companies selling preinstalled Linux and no-OS
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| cyber_rigger Jul 21, 2006 10:02 PM |
I am putting together a list of companies that sell pre-installed Linux and no-OS computers. It is aimed at the LOWER PRICED Desktops and Laptops. Think consumer product, Desktops (Workstations) for less than $1000, Laptops (Notebooks) for less than $2000. I got fed up with the major computer OEMs spamming Linux sites with "that other operating system" so I created this list. Examples of spamming are shown here. [HYPERLINK@lxer.com] The goal is to make it EASIER for "+" beginners (and advanced users) to find the computer they need. Please add to my list. Extra points if the Linux machines are easy to find with pricing and if there is an online store. Recent Linux versions please. The company doesn't count if they advertise Linux, then spam you with MS Windows. This is my list so far (updated 4/02/2008). Computers with preinstalled Linux: "+" means beginner friendly Linux usually comes with thousands of free programs, (often with Desktops the monitor is NOT included). [HYPERLINK@www.alvio.com] Desktops (Fedora +SuSE +Ubuntu) Laptops (Fedora +Ubuntu) [HYPERLINK@www.amazon.com] Desktops (+Linspire +Xandros) Laptops (+Ubuntu) website: search "Linspire" or "Xandros" * [HYPERLINK@www.amnet-comp.com] Desktops (Debian Redhat Slackware) [HYPERLINK@store.alphapcstore.com] Desktops (+Linspire) * [HYPERLINK@www.asaservers.com] Desktops (call-users-choice) Laptops (Fedora) * [HYPERLINK@www.aslab.com] Desktops (Fedora +SuSE) Laptops (Fedora +SuSE) [HYPERLINK@www.tecnologia.carrefour.es] Desktop (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@c3pc.com] Desktops (Freespire +Linspire +Ubuntu) Laptops (Freespire +Linspire +Ubuntu) [HYPERLINK@www.carvercomputers.biz] Desktops (+Mepis TaFusion) [HYPERLINK@www.cheapestpc.com.au] Desktops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.cheeplinux.com] Desktops (CentOS Fedora +Mandriva +Ubuntu) [HYPERLINK@www.copycatcomputers.com] Desktops (Debian Freespire Klikit +Linspire +Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.cosmoseng.com] Desktops (+Mandriva +Ubuntu) Laptops (Fedora +SuSE Redhat) * [HYPERLINK@custombarebones.com] Desktops (Fedora +SuSE Redhat) * [HYPERLINK@www.dell.com] Desktops Laptop (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.dnuk.com] Desktops (Debian Fedora +SuSE +Ubuntu) [HYPERLINK@dse.co.nz] Laptops (+Ubuntu +Xandros) website: Search "Linux" * [HYPERLINK@www.efficientpc.co.uk] Desktops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.emperorlinux.com] Laptops (EmperorLinux +Ubuntu Redhat Debian +SuSE Slackware +Mandrake) * [HYPERLINK@www.eracks.com] Desktops (Centos Debian ELX BSD Gentoo +Mandriva +Ubuntu Icepack +SuSE +Xandros) Laptops (CentOS Debian Fedora BSD Gentoo +Mandriva +Ubuntu +SuSE +Linspire Redhat) [HYPERLINK@www.gamepc.com] Desktops Laptops (Fedora +SuSE) website: Custom Systems * [HYPERLINK@www.geekstop.co.uk] Desktop (+SuSE) [HYPERLINK@www.globalcomputer.com] Desktops (+Linspire) * [HYPERLINK@groovix.com] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.ibexpc.com] Desktops (Fedora Redhat +SuSE +Ubuntu +Xandros) [HYPERLINK@www.idotpc.com] Desktops (+Linspire) * [HYPERLINK@www.ikbenstil.nl] Desktops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.koobox.com] Desktops (+Linspire) [HYPERLINK@www.kmart.com] Desktops (+Linspire) website: search "Linspire" * [HYPERLINK@www.keynux.com] Desktops Laptops (Fedora +Mandriva) * [HYPERLINK@laclinux.com] Desktops (Debian Fedora +Ubuntu Redhat Slackware +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.linspire.com] Desktops (+Linspire) Laptops (+Linspire) * [HYPERLINK@www.linux-service.be] Desktops (Fedora Gentoo +Kubuntu Mandriva +SuSE +Ubuntu Slackware) Laptops (+Kubuntu +Ubuntu +SuSE Slackware +Mandriva Gentoo Fedora Debian) * [HYPERLINK@www.linuxcertified.com] Laptops (+Ubuntu Fedora +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.linuxcomp.net] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.linuxcomputersystems.com] Desktops (Fedora +Linspire RedHat +SuSE +Mandriva) * [HYPERLINK@www.linuxemporium.co.uk] Laptops (+Ubuntu +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.linuxloft.com] Desktops (+Edbuntu +Linspire +Xandros) Laptops (+Xandros) * [HYPERLINK@www.linuxsyscorp.com] Desktops (+Xandros) * [HYPERLINK@www.microtelpc.com] Desktops (+Linspire LinspireEspanol) * [HYPERLINK@www.mingos.nl] Laptops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@openforeveryone.co.uk] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.pugetsystems.com] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) [HYPERLINK@www.sharex.com.tr] Desktops (Gelecek) Laptops (Gelecek) * [HYPERLINK@shoprcubed.com] Desktops (Fedora) Laptops (Fedora Redhat +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.sub500.com] Desktops (+Linspire) Laptops (+Linspire) [HYPERLINK@us.shuttle.com] Desktops (Foresight) * [HYPERLINK@www.swt.com] Desktops (Debian Fedora Redhat +SuSE) Laptops (Debian Fedora Redhat +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.system76.com] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) [HYPERLINK@www.systemax.com] Desktops (+Linspire) website: Pick store then search "Linspire" * [HYPERLINK@www.thelinuxshop.co.uk] Desktop (+Mandriva) [HYPERLINK@www.tigerdirect.com] Desktops (+Linspire) website: search for "Linspire" [HYPERLINK@www.tigerdirect.ca] Desktops (+Linspire) website: search for "Linspire" [HYPERLINK@www.transtec.co.uk] Desktops Laptops (+SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@tuxboxcomputers.com] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.tuxhardware.de] Laptops (+SuSE +Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.vgcomputing.com.au] Desktops (Redhat Fedora CentOS +Mandriva Debian +Ubuntu +Kubuntu +Mepis Gentoo Slackware +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.zareason.com] Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu) * [HYPERLINK@www.zareason.de] Desktops (+Ubuntu Debian) Laptops (+Ubuntu Debian) * [HYPERLINK@ztechshop.net] Desktops (+SuSE Vector) * [HYPERLINK@www.zinside.com] Desktops (+Ubuntu) * These vendors give you a clue (on their homepage) that they sell Linux computers. + "Beginner" versions of Linux (per wikipedia.org 8/7/2006): Ark, Linspire, Mandriva, Mepis, Parsi, Puppy, Sauver, SuSE, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu, Xandros Comparison of Linux distributions: [HYPERLINK@en.wikipedia.org] Comparisons of Linux applications: [HYPERLINK@www.linuxrsp.ru] [HYPERLINK@www.linuxscrew.com] Here are some other lists and info: [HYPERLINK@tuxmobil.org] [HYPERLINK@www.us.debian.org] [HYPERLINK@www.linux.org] [HYPERLINK@tuxmobil.org] (general information) [HYPERLINK@mcelrath.org] Laptops/Notebooks Linux Flash-Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.eeeuser.com] [HYPERLINK@en.wikipedia.org] No-OS, Computers without Operating System (for those who want to install their own Operating System): [HYPERLINK@www.abestpc.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.adamant.com] Desktops Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.avadirect.com] Desktops Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.com4.nl] Desktops [HYPERLINK@www.cyberpowerpc.com] Desktops Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.goldenelectronics.co.uk] Desktops [HYPERLINK@www.hypersonic-pc.com] Desktops Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.ion-technologies.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@store.madtux.org] Desktops/ [HYPERLINK@www.ncix.com] Desktops [HYPERLINK@www.laptopchoice.com.au] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.mtechlaptops.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.mwave.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.novatech.co.uk] Desktops Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.pcsforeveryone.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.powernotebooks.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.rjtech.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.topmicrousa.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.unitedmicro.com] Desktops Laptops [HYPERLINK@xnbs.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.xtremenotebooks.com] Laptops [HYPERLINK@www.zepto.com] Laptops Miscellaneous, pending, language translation needed: Asus Eee PC [HYPERLINK@eeepc.asus.com] [HYPERLINK@www.angelcomputer.com] Laptops older Linux versions * [HYPERLINK@www.damnsmalllinux.org] Nano-Desktop (DSL) [HYPERLINK@www.gelecek.com.tr] -* [HYPERLINK@www.gigastrand.com] Desktops (+Linspire) Laptops (+Linspire) * [HYPERLINK@linutop.com] diskless (+xubuntu) [HYPERLINK@www.pegasosppc.com] Desktops * [HYPERLINK@www.pogolinux.com] Desktops (Fedora Redhat +SuSE) * [HYPERLINK@www.pricepc.com] Desktops (Fedora +Linspire) * [HYPERLINK@www.terrasoftsolutions.com] Desktops (Yellowdog) [HYPERLINK@storeanywhere.com] [HYPERLINK@www.yellowsheepriver.org] Municator TV PC Linux PVR: [HYPERLINK@store.interact-tv.com] [HYPERLINK@store02.prostores.com] |
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| grouch Jul 21, 2006 10:14 PM |
That's an impressive list. I only knew about 2/3 of those. Thanks! |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 21, 2006 10:54 PM |
I figured that instead of whining about the big OEMs we should promote the companies that actually care about desktop Linux. It would be nice someday to have a master site as a "Linux computer finder". For now you can just pass this list around. We need to convince the shopping engine sites to have a Linux computer catagory. For example I was sending suggestions to pricescan.com for a "Linux" OS choice. They now have a "Linux" selection when for searching for computers (although they have a very limited selection). These also have a limited Linux OS category Pricegrabber.com nextag.com Here are some other shopping engines to pester. bizrate.com shop.com Suggest to them that they need a 'select by OS' feature (with Linux). Send them my list of merchants, too. :^) |
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| hkwint Jul 22, 2006 6:41 AM |
Great work cyber_rigger. I remember you doing this work in the past and it seems you have advanced. I might as well spend an article on it, to let everyone know. I hope I can add some European vendors, will try that when I have some time. |
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| Sander_Marechal Jul 22, 2006 7:05 AM |
[HYPERLINK@www.com4.nl] - sells PC's with no OS or XP [HYPERLINK@www.pcspeed.nl] - pre-built systems come with Win XP but if you choose the "build your own" then you can skip the OS (could be a website bug though) [HYPERLINK@www.ikbenstil.nl] - silent computers - with Linux [HYPERLINK@www.openoffice.nl] - Linux powered business networks |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 22, 2006 1:48 PM |
Digg and reddit links. Digg [HYPERLINK@tinyurl.com] (It looks like Digg is blocking directs from lxer.com) [HYPERLINK@reddit.com] |
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| Scott_Ruecker Jul 22, 2006 2:01 PM |
Here is the link again if anyone was getting the same error I was. [HYPERLINK@digg.com] Your right , they are blocking it. Why? |
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| jessejoedotcom Jul 22, 2006 7:16 PM |
Our company does too - [HYPERLINK@www.thecybersource.com] | ||||
| qxzn Jul 22, 2006 9:03 PM |
you've forgotten two of the biggest vendors! [HYPERLINK@www.pogolinux.com] and [HYPERLINK@www.penguincomputing.com] | ||||
| majorw2 Jul 22, 2006 9:07 PM |
Another company that has no-OS laptops and barebones systems for sale - [HYPERLINK@www.GoLinuxShop.com] It's even got Linux in the name, what could be better ? :-) |
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| Scott_Ruecker Jul 22, 2006 11:39 PM |
Here are a couple more I found..easy ones though. For our Canadian Readers [HYPERLINK@www.tigerdirect.ca] [HYPERLINK@www.thelinuxstore.ca] and of course the 'U.S.' version [HYPERLINK@www.tigerdirect.com] |
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| twickline Jul 23, 2006 5:03 AM |
[HYPERLINK@xnbs.com] |
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| hkwint Jul 23, 2006 6:26 AM |
[HYPERLINK@www.pegasosppc.com] PPC's with Linux preinstalled |
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| jawahar Jul 23, 2006 6:49 AM |
where can i find linux pre-installed notebooks in japan? | ||||
| hkwint Jul 23, 2006 1:07 PM |
Of course I can't read Japanese, but look here, [HYPERLINK@linux.toshiba-dme.co.jp] and if it is possible to buy Linux laptops over there, please let us know! |
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| hkwint Jul 23, 2006 1:20 PM |
Found more Linux desk- / laptops: NL - [HYPERLINK@www.ciao-shopping.nl] FR - Ubuntu barebones [HYPERLINK@www.zinside.com] FR - [HYPERLINK@www.toptaupe.com] Pretty high-end: US - [HYPERLINK@laclinux.com] |
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| hkwint Jul 23, 2006 1:30 PM |
Interesting: Linux.com have their own Linux desktop / laptop vendors list. [HYPERLINK@www.linux.org] [HYPERLINK@www.linux.org] |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 23, 2006 1:35 PM |
hkwint From your Dell link. "Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell laptops." "Dell does not officially support running Linux on Dell desktops." IMO Dell does NOT CARE about desktop Linux. |
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| jonbach Jul 23, 2006 2:56 PM |
Our company is happy to offer no-OS computers as well, hope this isn't considered spamming :) [HYPERLINK@www.pugetsystems.com] We have plan to offer Linux (likely Fedora or Ubuntu) as a free preinstalled option soon, but for now while we do not list it as an option, you can simply ask for it and we can put it on. No software tech support is offered, however. |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 23, 2006 3:09 PM |
jonbach "We have plan to offer Linux (likely Fedora or Ubuntu) as a free preinstalled option soon.." Great, I'll put it on my 'to watch' list. I find it useful to mention Linux, etc. on your site's home page. |
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| Iain Jul 23, 2006 5:55 PM |
[HYPERLINK@openforeveryone.co.uk] | ||||
| hkwint Jul 23, 2006 5:59 PM |
Read past that, already wondering what changed. Nothing, it seems. Removed Dell from my post. |
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| grouch Jul 23, 2006 6:04 PM |
cyber_rigger: I've added a link to this thread from my website: [HYPERLINK@edge-op.org] I suggest it may be helpful if others do the same; may as well make it easy for people to stumble onto this collection. :o) |
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| hkwint Jul 23, 2006 6:15 PM |
The readers from Digg pointed to some sites. Most of them are already in this list, except for: [HYPERLINK@www.terrasoftsolutions.com] PPC Linux Pre-installed [HYPERLINK@secure.hypersonic-pc.com] No-OS |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 23, 2006 6:57 PM |
Attention potential Linux, no-OS vendors If Microsoft tries to bully you here is the place to complain. [HYPERLINK@www.thetc.org] |
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| dcparris Jul 23, 2006 8:30 PM |
jonbach: > hope this isn't considered spamming :) FYI - Ordinarily it would be. In this case the OP has solicited the info, so I'm allowing it. In most cases, I would suggest submitting an announcement via the Story Submission link. In fact, I encourage you to do so when you "officially" support it. :-) I agree that it would be good to see your company slap a gnu, a penguin, or at least the logos of the distros you intend to offer on the front page. Even refering to GNU/Linux systems in your front page text is a plus. That let's the community know you're serious about supporting us, thus giving us reason to give serious thought to supporting your company. ;-) |
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| Scott_Ruecker Jul 24, 2006 6:24 AM |
Here is another one too. [HYPERLINK@www.reddog.com.au] |
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| herve76 Jul 25, 2006 9:28 AM |
You've forgotten a big vendor from France : [HYPERLINK@www.zinside.com] | ||||
| tuxchick2 Jul 25, 2006 1:07 PM |
jonbach, when you get serious about Linux support, which means making it obvious on the front page of your site and supporting it, give us a ring. Until then it's vapor, methinks. Maybe I'm being grumpy, but I really get tired of being treated like a nothing just because I don't want Windows. "Just ask!" No, how about you try to earn my business? Making me sneak in the back door doesn't count. Thanks everyone for all the good links. Can this be made into a permanent page with a nice link on the front LXer page? |
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| dcparris Jul 25, 2006 1:15 PM |
I would like to write an article about this, and I agree we probably should consider a list page linked from the top of the front. I was hoping cyber_rigger would compile the list into one set of links for me, which I could then post as part of the article. I am also contacting a company that sells PCs with Ubuntu pre-installed to ask them further questions. Hopefully, since they initiated the contact, they'll respond soon. | ||||
| hkwint Jul 25, 2006 5:54 PM |
Was also thinking of that. We should ask Dave to set up another public db, just like we have a list of 'migrations'. In this way, everyone can add companies, and only the maintainer can delete or modify them. Don:please contact Dave! |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 25, 2006 6:25 PM |
Please do write an article. I've been editing the original post as I see new links. I haven't gone through the other lists yet (I do have a daytime job). :^) For now lets say desktops under $1000 and laptops under $2000 The goal is to find low priced pre-installed Linux "DESKTOPS" (not servers). If a company just does rack mounts, blades, etc. it doesn't count. I/We could create a table with: 1. Does the website indicate Linux on their home page? 2. Website URL 3. distros they pre-install 4. types of computers offered desktop, laptop/notebook 5. tips for finding the Linux computer pages, for example search for "ubuntu" etc. Some sites are a PITA to find to the Linux machine offerings. 6. Is Linux support offered? Would a wiki work here to build the data or would it get spammed out??? |
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| Libervis Jul 25, 2006 7:00 PM |
Can I add a Croatian company for those in Croatia? Here it is: [HYPERLINK@www.hgspot.hr] They sell alot of PCs with GNU/Linux preinstalled although they do have a choice of WinXP preinstalled ones as well. And the price of GNU/Linux machines is also lower. :) Who needs Dell and the likes? ;) Cheers Daniel |
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| dcparris Jul 25, 2006 10:12 PM |
O.k., I've put Dave on notice. | ||||
| dcparris Jul 25, 2006 11:29 PM |
cyber_rigger: I just want to say thanks for this. I am now working with Dave on the idea. Here is how I have laid out the DB to him: Company_Name varchar City varchar State_Province varchar Country varchar (It's good to know where these vendors are) Distros_Offered varchar No_OS_computers Yes/No (Do they offer boxes without an OS?) Advertise_Front_Page Yes/No Support_Options varchar (It would be good to know what support options they offer) company_url varchar Active_Inactive Yes/No (are they still in business?) Would we want the last field to be made visible, so as to know "this company used to, but no longer does, offer computers or is out of business"? Or would it be better to simply drop the company from the DB if they are no longer offering GNU/Linux systems (or went out of business)? Perhaps we should distinguish between "out of business" and "no longer offering GNU systems? Please comment on my layout. I'm not the best DB guru, but I think I covered most of the bases. Tell me now or forever hold your peace! |
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| grouch Jul 25, 2006 11:40 PM |
dcparris: Suggestion: Change "Advertise_Front_Page Yes/No" to "Linux_Front_Page Yes/No". |
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| grouch Jul 26, 2006 12:00 AM |
Hmm, I'm not a db guru, but you might save some duplication by using tables, instead of a table: Company co_id int, primary key co_name varchar 255 co_addr varchar 255 co_country varchar 2 Distros d_id int, primary key d_name varchar 128 d_link text Computers co_id int references company.co_id d_id int references distros.d_id The company name, address and country probably won't change much. The offerings could. Same with distributions -- name and home page won't change, so no sense listing them multiple times, once for each company offering a computer with it. Probably could stand some refinement, I'm rusty. :) |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 26, 2006 12:22 AM |
It would be nice to know if a vendor sold Laptops. Some vendors sell desktops but not Laptops. As far as the Active_Inactive goes, just remove them if they become inactive. You could treat the no-OS option just like another distros. The support info might get messy. You might want to save that for phase II or just not worry about it. One distro might be supported and another one not, You could have a star by the distro name if support is available. |
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| grouch Jul 26, 2006 12:27 AM |
cyber_rigger: Ok. Computers co_id int, references company.co_id d_id int, references distros.d_id type text 'type' could hold, for example, "desktop", "laptop", "server", or any combination If 'type' is not null but d_id is null, it's a 'no OS' computer. |
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| cyber_rigger Jul 26, 2006 2:22 AM |
I'd even leave out servers. Linux servers are EASY to find. My goal is to make it easy to find the low-end consumer machines with a pre-installed "Linux Desktop OS" or no-OS. A minimalist table could have these fields. linux_clue_on_homepage ........ some small marker like a star hompage_url ........................... http:// whatever desktop_distros ....................... no-OS Debian Ubuntu SuSE Fedora etc. laptop_distros ......................... no-OS Debian Ubuntu SuSE Fedora etc. special_directions .................... directions to the Linux/no-OS machine pages (for the stubborn sites) Some sites keep the Linux/no-OS machines hard to find so directions to find the Linux/no-OS machine pages would be handy. Here's an example of values for amazon.com linux_clue_on_homepage ......... hompage_url .......................... [HYPERLINK@] desktop_distros ...................... Linspire laptop_distros ........................ special_directions .................... computers > Desktops > Narrow by Computer Platform, Linux Something to keep in mind. If the finished table is text copy and pasteable it's easier to pass around. |
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| hkwint Jul 27, 2006 8:44 AM |
Great to see a new db is being born. What do we do with the Linux.org list? Anyone knows if that list is copyrighted (I believe it may be)? |
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| tuxchick2 Jul 27, 2006 9:30 AM |
Hans, you can't copyright facts. We could copy the vendor links, no problem. Better not copy the descriptions, unless they're just lifted from the vendor's pages. Their stuff is old anyway, and needs to be checked. BTW it's linux.org. |
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| hkwint Jul 27, 2006 9:34 AM |
Stupid Hans! Corrected it. |
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| grouch Aug 01, 2006 1:11 AM |
I don't see [HYPERLINK@store.madtux.org] anywhere on the list. | ||||
| sbergman27 Aug 01, 2006 1:25 AM |
So, shouldn't this list have some sort of permanent link from the main page or something? What could be more Linux related than how to buy a machine with Linux in the first place? Edit: Woops. I see that's already on the adgenda. |
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| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 2:02 AM |
This is an excellent effort and I'm looking forward to seeing it develop. However, in order to offer the most benefit, the issue of the Microsoft Tax needs to be accounted for. Many vendors selling pre-installed GNU/Linux (and even bare-bones) pass the tax off to consumers as a soft cost. For example, emperorlinux is one such company. By tracking this information on a vendor by vendor basis, consumers will be armed with more information be in a better position to know where their hard earned money is going. |
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| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 2:06 AM |
dcparris, Feel free to look at the Microsoft Tax Survey I started on windowsrefund.info. It may help identify what issues are worth tracking. [HYPERLINK@windowsrefund.info] |
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| jonbach Aug 01, 2006 2:55 AM |
dcparris: >I agree that it would be good to see your company slap a gnu, a penguin, or at least the logos of the distros you intend to offer on the front page Done :) [HYPERLINK@www.pugetsystems.com] It isn't exactly a bold push to Linux, but we have to try it slow for a while to see if the tech support calls drown us! |
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| wjl Aug 01, 2006 5:00 AM |
Another one would be [HYPERLINK@lixsystems.com] and their store at [HYPERLINK@linuxtechtoys.com] They will provide our new community project with a machine in 3 - 4 weeks (oops, now the news are out - this will be an extra LXer story...) cheers, wjl |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 01, 2006 11:26 AM |
Thanks for the links but, madtux.org only had barebones (you had to add a CD drive), pugetsystems.com seems to show only MS Windows linuxtechtoys.com had barebones and 1 preinstalled (which was not available). Most sites I've seen use this terminology: Barebones = usually needs additional hardware + OS no-OS = needs OS These sites would be confusing to 'average joe consumer' wanting to buy a Linux computer. |
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| wjl Aug 01, 2006 1:45 PM |
Hmmm I see your point, but the lixsystems sold at linuxtechtoys come with 3 CDs: 2 complete OSses (Fedora 5 and (K)Ubuntu Live), the 3rd is a driver CD for that proprietary OS. Maybe too much for "average joe", you're probably right. For the rest of us, I call that good Linux support... |
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| tuxchick2 Aug 01, 2006 1:48 PM |
If we're still talking about making a permanent page all organized, "bare" and "pre-installed" seem like logical categories. | ||||
| jonbach Aug 01, 2006 3:12 PM |
> pugetsystems.com seems to show only MS Windows Not true :) Please be sure to follow the Penguin link on our homepage for Linux support questions and ordering information. We also show that link on our configuration pages. |
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| SFN Aug 01, 2006 3:24 PM |
I thought the same thing as cyber_rigger. So I went to your page expecting to find a very hidden link. I was surprised when I saw the Penguin logo. It's pretty much right out there in the open. No idea how I missed it the first time. However, in following it I found this:
How does offering Windows in the ordering process and not Linux help a customer make an informed decision? |
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| sbergman27 Aug 01, 2006 3:35 PM |
SFN. That's unfair. For 12 long hours Puget Systems has offered Linux right along side of Windows. I respect dedication. And Puget Systems has proven their dedication in my eyes. But, like... where was Puget Systems last week and the week before? We're not so desperate here that we'll jump at anything, you know. |
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| SFN Aug 01, 2006 3:38 PM |
Hang on. That wasn't an attack. It was a question. It doesn't make sense to me that hiding a choice would help a customer make a decision. If I'm wrong, I'm very interested in hearing how. | ||||
| SFN Aug 01, 2006 3:39 PM |
Oh. Hehe. I get it now. | ||||
| cyber_rigger Aug 01, 2006 3:59 PM |
My goal was to help the "average joe" buy a Linux computer (without having to buy a MS Windows machine first). At first, no-OS was about the only option (other than build it from parts). Now we have viable preinstalled Linux vendors. If we are going to present a main-stream ARTICLE to "joe public" then we need to leave out the geek part. I say for "phase one" we concentrate on the preinstalled Linux vendors. Tracking the MS tax would be good information too, if there is a way to reliably get it. What I call "bare bones" is a case w/ powersupply, Motherboard, & processor, maybe memory. What I call "no-OS" has everything but the software. |
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| jonbach Aug 01, 2006 4:23 PM |
The question here is whether the average joehas enough sense to know what to buy. That's our fear. Cynical sounding, I know :) "Linux is free, great I'll take it!" they say...then they end up being dissatisfied because they can't figure out how to use it. Linux is making good progress, but I would still not feel comfortable giving it to just anyone. It really is a fundamental question: is it better to give both options with equal ease of selection, at the risk of more frustrated customers, or is it better to let those who know they want Linux request it? Believe me when I say it is something we've given a lot of thought. I welcome your input on it! Just remember that it is very easy to say they should be offered equally....but an entirely different matter when *you* are the one customers will be calling when they're upset that they can't get something working like they want. |
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| SFN Aug 01, 2006 4:36 PM |
Well, I can see your point. But what you have set up is a system under which people can easily buy not computers but computers with Windows on them. From reading the info on the configuration pages, one is left with the notion that you are only pushing Windows. You've even got a Vista logo on there. Linux is just mentioned in sort of a "yeah, we can do that too" kind of way. Of course, that is better than what most vendors do. |
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| wjl Aug 01, 2006 5:09 PM |
jonbach> "It really is a fundamental question: is it better to give both options with equal ease of selection, at the risk of more frustrated customers, or is it better to let those who know they want Linux request it?" That reminds me of a colleague - the oldest one of our company. His hard disk in his private laptop went *bang*, so I told him to get a new one. When he arrived with it, it wasn't a long question: he had no license for anything from Redmond, he had seen Etch on my Dell, he wanted it, he got it. And now he and his wife tell me each time how easy it all is. I think it's a question of openness to new things, of being able to "let go" of old habits, all that sort of things. Whenever he has a question, I'm helping him - but that's not very often. For the basic "average Joe" like him, who types a letter in OO and browses the web with FF, life is easy. The next computer could be preinstalled or without an OS, he wouldn't care much I think. So no frustration there... cheers, wjl |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 01, 2006 6:05 PM |
"Linux is making good progress, but I would still not feel comfortable giving it to just anyone." Then don't. Let the other vendors do it. |
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| grouch Aug 01, 2006 6:55 PM |
cyber_rigger: >"madtux.org only had barebones (you had to add a CD drive)," It presents options for additional RAM, CD or DVD drive, and hard drive. I don't know what you mean by the title "Companies selling preinstalled Linux and no-OS" if it doesn't include a computer with no OS installed. |
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| jimf Aug 01, 2006 7:18 PM |
jonbach said: > The question here is whether the average joehas enough sense to know what to buy. That's our fear. True, the average joe cam be pretty dense. But is Linux, at least with a KDE interface, any more difficult than Window for a first time user? Certainly not in my experience. > is it better to give both options with equal ease of selection, at the risk of more frustrated customers Why do you assume that new users in Linux are going to get any more frustrated than those in Windows? That makes no sense. > but an entirely different matter when *you* are the one customers will be calling when they're upset that they can't get something working like they want. And you don't get that in windows... ;-)... Right. In my experience It's far easier to get help for Linux on the Internet than it is for Windows. So load their bookmarks with Linux help links, and xchat with some good IRC help channels as default. You'll probably never hear from them again except when their ready to order a new system :D Turn your Linux offering into a positive as in 'we can give you the very latest Linux Distros, preconfigured, and ready to go' (with the cute tux, and, put it on the top position). Put Windows as the after thought 'or we can supply you with a preconfigured Windows install' (that's probably at extra cost I assume?). I just don't see the down side here. |
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| dcparris Aug 01, 2006 11:10 PM |
I have been talking with 2 frustrated Windows users - one a non-techie, the other a mainframe operator with little real PC experience. One had an issue with the anti-virus software, the mainframe operator just received his Dell Inspiron that won't play his DVDs, presumably because he hasn't activated his license. The truth is, we really are guessing as to why it won't play - there is no hint whatsoever from the system. I would highly recommend making both OSes an option. You could just as easily have a handy page explaining the differences in features, etc. It would even be o.k. to post something to the effect of, "switching from Windows to GNU/Linux might require a nominal period of adjustment - anywhere from a few hours to a few days." That's a suggestion, and I believe a rather viable one at that. But I've never feared a potential backlash. Indeed, there hasn't been any such reaction from the people I've setup with Ubuntu. |
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| jimf Aug 01, 2006 11:57 PM |
My experience when I was doing support for Mepis is similar to what Don's saying. People were always commenting how much 'easier' Mepis was than Windows, and that was with the user doing the install. I don't remember anyone ever complaining once it was set up. | ||||
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 11:59 PM |
Another important aspect of the GNU/Linux sales pitch should involve selling the lack of DRM/TCPA/Phone-Home technology that users have grown to expect from Windows. This will actually become more important with each passing day. The first company to invest some brains and cash into an advertising campaign that sells these freedoms will be the first to build a loyal customer base. | ||||
| cyber_rigger Aug 02, 2006 12:20 AM |
I listen to Windows users. How they run spybot, adaware, Norton antivirus, and have to manually remove some viruses. How they have to do system restores then reinstall their system, do product activation, defragment their hard drives, find device drivers on the internet because they lost their CDs, then let the local geek kid work on their machine, then take it to the local shop for a professional Windows cleaning. These are "average joes". IMO Linux is easier. When my friends ask me to fix their Windows machines I tell them I don't do Windows anymore but I'll install Linux instead. |
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| wjl Aug 02, 2006 12:34 AM |
cyber_rigger> "When my friends ask me to fix their Windows machines I tell them I don't do Windows anymore but I'll install Linux instead." Right, that is my reaction since years. I then explain to them why, in case they ask. And only for *very* good friends on *very* few occasions I sometimes waste my time trying to figure out what went wrong with their M$ - tho I also tell them that I would never advise a friend to keep using that... The beginning of this was funny. Can you imagine their faces when they heard me saying: "Oh sorry, I don't do Windows since quite some time - instead I'm using BSD"? cheers, wjl |
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| wind0wsr3fund Aug 02, 2006 12:34 AM |
cyber_rigger, You hit the nail right on the head. The average Windows user has gotten so accustomed to jumping through hoop after hoop just to use their computer. It's like bringing in the dog to get ride of the cat to get rid of the mouse to get rid of the.... and so on, and so on. They're busy trying to find a serial for their pirated 0day copy of antivirus-solution-of-the-month and I'm saying "virus? what's that?". That's assuming they've negotied a means to connect to the public Internet without fear of Redmond shutting down their computer. GNU/Linux is so ahead of the game in this regard since (depending on the distro involved) it's just ready to go. This alone is a tremendous selling feature and noone has picked up on it yet. With vista on the horizon and Apple's move to Intel (a DRM preparation strategy), the situation is ripe for exploitation. |
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| jonbach Aug 02, 2006 2:18 AM |
Great points. It is indeed possible that it really isn't about the user, but instead that *we*, as a company, would be less able and more frustrated supporting Linux, not because of anything specific to Linux, but just because we've been supporting Windows for years and years, and have gotten darn good at it! If that's the case, then it isn't about Windows vs Linux at all, but about *our* skills and experience as a provider of support. And that is something we can approach knowing we can be sucessful at....just a little time and learning! Just thinking out loud :) Great thread! |
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| wind0wsr3fund Aug 02, 2006 2:22 AM |
I'm sure there are plenty of skilled persons looking for work who could add alot of value to your company. Please keep us informed :) | ||||
| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 2:50 AM |
Jon, I thought about my previous suggestion about making GNU/Linux more available. But this last post confirms my suspicions about your tech support issue. So let me suggest this: Start by studying a GNU/Linux distro to support it. SUSE or Ubuntu seem to be the best bet. Doesn't really matter which one - just choose the one that suits your tastes. Get familiar with the desktop stuff and provide support for it. You can then expand to another distro. Ideally, you would gradually support at least one RPM-based, and one Apt-based distro. In the meantime, offer GNU/Linux as an option in the config pages, with the caveat that: "Although we will soon offer support for SUSE Linux, community-based support is currently the only option. If you are comfortable with community support (link to page describing how community support works), and prefer to have GNU/Linux, be sure to select it instead of Windows. If you prefer commercial support, you may want to wait until we provide it." Incidentally, Ubuntu has commercial support options available already. You could literally offer Ubuntu pre-installed, and a link to the commercial Ubuntu support information - it's right on the Ubuntu site. Granted, it's about $100 for something like a year of support, but that frees you until you can learn to support it yourself. Then you add the support cost into the cost of the PC. You can call it the installation/support fee, if you like. BTW, that puts $100 in your pocket for every PC sold with Ubuntu or SUSE. How much profit do you make off Windows? And does that carrot cause you to rethink your strategy at all? |
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| jimf Aug 02, 2006 3:45 AM |
> They're busy trying to find a serial for their pirated 0day copy of antivirus-solution-of-the-month Small correction there. Several very good AV companies offer their product free (though granted, not Foss) to individual users.... no need to pirate anything, although, MS's activation access is certainly a valid point... Try adding a different drive or a new CPU and you could be out of luck. The very fact that a Windows user 'may' have to go through any of this when they are in complyance with MS's 'rules' is certainly a downer, and to my mind, downright insulting. A very practical reason to move to Linux. |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 02, 2006 10:59 AM |
jonbach
I think YOU hit the nail on the head. I find that Linux problems are easier to track down. Sometimes it's as easy as googling the error message. Since Linux development and testing is open I am more likely to find a web page about the same problem. |
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| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 11:41 AM |
Back to the DB discussion from way back, I just submitted to Dave the general idea. I just wasn't sure where to put a couple of the items I thought were important, so will leave that to him to mull over. Anyway, I just wanted to update everyone on where this stands. | ||||
| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 1:32 PM |
Our DB layout was a start, but Dave needed something more along the lines of how we want things to look. Thus, I am submitting this: Company Name - input text City - input text State or Province - input box Country - input box Computer Types - multi-select box Advertise Linux on Front Page - check box Distros Offered - text box (could use a list box that allows multiple selections) No OS - check box Support Options multi-select box (none, community, vendor support, 3rd party support) Company URL - input text Special Directions - input text(directions to the Linux info on sites that hide it) Active or Inactive - check box (are they still in business?) Is this sensible? |
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| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 1:59 PM |
Dave felt this was just what he needed. We're working on it. | ||||
| hkwint Aug 02, 2006 3:02 PM |
Are 'No OS only' companies allowed? So, the ones who doesn't offer Linux pre-installed PC's, but those who do offer No-OS PC's? And what's the point of including inactive stores? The rest is fine. |
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| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 3:46 PM |
I just want to be able to de-activate a store that ceases 6 months from now. The owners may add it in, and then go out of business without deleting their submission. We just need a way to make that happen. Vendors that offer "No OS" boxes are allowed. We're working on a search option that filters those out for non-techies, or those who don't want that option. That will likely happen a little later. Users will be able to browse or search the database normally as well. |
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| hkwint Aug 02, 2006 3:53 PM |
Isn't it more sensible to just delete inactive stores? |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 02, 2006 4:26 PM |
I also say just delete them, immediately. Showing a list of inactive stores looks desperate and adds confusion to shoppers. The list loses credibility. If a company can't reliably offer a product then don't have them on the list. I would like to see the no-OS vendors kept on a separate list. Maybe this will encourage them to get on "The" (preinstalled Linux) List. "The" List will then strive to be the "consumer friendy" list (without the geek distractions). |
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| jimf Aug 02, 2006 5:13 PM |
> I also say just delete them, immediately. > Showing a list of inactive stores looks desperate and adds confusion to shoppers. > The list loses credibility. In one way I agree, still, it would be quite informative to see how many of these guys don't make it. maybe make the drop outs available as a 2nd list or link? |
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| sbergman27 Aug 02, 2006 5:17 PM |
Jimf, How morbid. But I kinda agree. Maybe the droppers out could be noted on a private mailing list or something. |
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| jimf Aug 02, 2006 5:37 PM |
> How morbid. Agree, but I still maintain that accurate information should always be available, even if it may undermine one's pet theory. In the end it may suprise us.. either way. |
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| sbergman27 Aug 02, 2006 5:54 PM |
Agreed, Jim. :-) | ||||
| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 6:10 PM |
My point is not to show them publicly, but to not show the inactive ones anymore. Meanwhile, on the backend, We'll be looking at who stops, and try to find out why. I should be able to check the box "Inactive", and that entry will cease showing up in search and browsing results. But I will make sure Dave is aware of the intent with that. | ||||
| cyber_rigger Aug 02, 2006 6:54 PM |
#3 [HYPERLINK@www.google.com] |
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| hkwint Aug 02, 2006 7:06 PM |
And also #4 | ||||
| dcparris Aug 02, 2006 7:58 PM |
:-) How soon til we're number one? Huh, Daddy? Huh? Huh? | ||||
| grouch Aug 03, 2006 1:21 AM |
Delete? From a database?!? Oh you fiends. May the demons called forth by Sarbanes and Oxley descend upon you and smother you in serpentine coils of red tape! Seriously, you don't delete from a database. You update. Dave knows this, as evidenced by the 'rejected stories' in the LXer database. It's really handy when you accidently 'delete' a story that shouldn't have been. Company data may change and company status may change, but the database shouldn't forget. |
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| Teron Aug 03, 2006 12:05 PM |
Sorry for the offtopicness, but I'd like to thank grouch for a good laugh ^^ | ||||
| bug_me_not Aug 03, 2006 12:13 PM |
[HYPERLINK@www.esysglobal.com] for info [HYPERLINK@www.zapkoo.com] Price starts at SGD 319.00 not sure which distro they use... |
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| random Aug 03, 2006 1:37 PM |
Not a huge fan of Dell, but they do sell desktops sans OS which seem to fit the criteria here. Granted, nothing about it on the front page or anything, but I assume that's to keep grandma from accidentally ordering one (acknowledging that I don't know all the details of agreements with you-know-who). Any reason they are unacceptable? Home / Home Office - Open Source Desktops [HYPERLINK@www.dell.com] Small Business - Open Source Desktops [HYPERLINK@www.dell.com] |
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| grouch Aug 03, 2006 1:51 PM |
Dell attempts to push MS Windows at every click on the website. | ||||
| random Aug 03, 2006 2:04 PM |
>Dell attempts to push MS Windows at every click on the website. I have to disagree. I don't feel there is any effort to "push" Windows to me when I browse around. To be fair, they are in the business of selling computers and people (for whatever reason) desire to purchase a Windows PC. Other people desire to purchase a PC without Windows and they have provided that. Do you mean the "Dell recommends..." message on every single page? Yeah, not exactly a ringing endorsement when it's required of you by agreement. I goto Dell. Click Home or Small Business. Near the bottom of each Desktop drop-down is Open Source Desktops. Even when I goto customize, there's no option for anything other than including a FreeDOS kit. Let's be fair. |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 03, 2006 2:14 PM |
No, you HAVE to receive a copy of FreeDOS. [HYPERLINK@www.theregister.co.uk] Dell's contract with Microsoft is their problem not mine. |
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| jimf Aug 03, 2006 2:16 PM |
Having worked on a couple of 'home model' Dells, I couldn't recommend then simply because of the proprietary design. | ||||
| jdixon Aug 03, 2006 2:19 PM |
> I goto Dell. Click Home or Small Business. Near the bottom of each Desktop drop-down is Open Source Desktops. Dell recently revamped their site, and as far as I can tell, this is not true. There is a link to Open Source Desktops on the Small Business page, but there appears to be no way to get to it from the Home or Home Office page. |
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| grouch Aug 03, 2006 2:25 PM |
>"To be fair, they are in the business of selling computers and people (for whatever reason) desire to purchase a Windows PC. Other people desire to purchase a PC without Windows and they have provided that." No, that's not fair, and this list is not about people who want to purchase a PC with MS Windows preinstalled. >"Do you mean the "Dell recommends..." message on every single page? Yeah, not exactly a ringing endorsement when it's required of you by agreement." It goes well beyond "not exactly a ringing endorsement", it is flat out anti-competitive, anti-Linux. Dell chose to splash that message which makes them an MS Windows dealer. See cyber_rigger's comment which began this thread: "The company doesn't count if they try to trick you into buying MS Windows." You have to be pretty determined and very watchful to make it through the Dell ordering process without ending up with MS Windows. |
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| random Aug 03, 2006 2:30 PM |
>Dell's contract with Microsoft is their problem not mine. Yes, it's a problem for them. Which they got around by *including* (as opposed to installing) a free OS that I assume no one would install because they have a OS they prefer. Dell has put forth effort to provide another choice. You may accept or find something more suitable. But you won't find this choice at Gateway or eMachines or your Best Buys or Circuit Citys. When they made no effort, people complained. Now they are making an effort and it's not enough. |
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| grouch Aug 03, 2006 2:40 PM |
>"But you won't find this choice at Gateway or eMachines or your Best Buys or Circuit Citys." But you will find better choice in the list at the top of this thread. That's the point of that list. If Dell wants to be included, let them make it just as easy to get a computer with Linux preinstalled as it is to get one with MS Windows preinstalled. That is ALL it takes. |
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| jdixon Aug 03, 2006 2:42 PM |
> Now they are making an effort and it's not enough. Are you familiar with the phrase "token effort"? |
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| random Aug 03, 2006 2:50 PM |
>No, that's not fair, and this list is not about people who want to purchase a PC with MS Windows preinstalled. Understood. Which is why this started with me providing links to desktops that do not have anything MS installed. >"The company doesn't count if they try to trick you into buying MS Windows." Tricks?! Where's the deception? Do the masses want Linux? I realize that most people don't even know what Linux is, but people want computers. Dell wants to make money. Linux *should* be in more homes in offices, but it is not. Linux *should* run every game and piece of productive software in existance, but it does not. Dell's "recommendation" is, in fact, forced upon by Microsoft. What's their incentive to "recommend" anything else? To make it a nightmare for support? To get endless calls about Photoshop and Half-Life 2? How will this progress if we flat-out ignore Dell's offering? Nobody wants to buy a OS-less PC from Dell? Why continue offering? Oh wait, people *do* want a OS-less PC (you know any non-geeks that are up for installing a PC?)? Well, then let's continue to appease the customers. >You have to be pretty determined and very watchful to make it through the Dell ordering process without ending up with MS Windows. If you (not *you*) go to Dell, most likely you are there to buy a Windows PC. That's what they do. If you are determined to buy a non-Win PC, there's nothing to be wary of when purchasing their Open Source Desktops (well, be mindful of the software section in ordering in Small Office, but nothing is included by default). Nowhere in the ordering process for OSD does it ever try to get you to purchase Windows. |
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| grouch Aug 03, 2006 2:55 PM |
When I see "Linux" or "GNU/Linux" along with Tux, as prominently displayed on Dell's web site as "Microsoft" and the MS Windows logo, then I will agree that they deserve consideration. Until then, they are no more than one arm of Microsoft's sales department. | ||||
| random Aug 03, 2006 2:57 PM |
>But you will find better choice in the list at the top of this thread. "Better" is subjective. I'm not saying Dell is ideal, but it *is* a choice. >That's the point of that list. If Dell wants to be included, let them make it just as easy to get a computer with Linux preinstalled as it is to get one with MS Windows preinstalled. That is ALL it takes. Why the double standard? There are many listed that provide OS-less PCs. But Dell has to have Linux pre-installed? >Are you familiar with the phrase "token effort"? So Dell has to put their full weight behind Linux for them to even be considered? Didn't they once sell PCs pre-installed with Linux, but found it was a nightmare to support? Linux is ready for my desktop. Linux is ready for your desktop. The masses are not ready for Linux. Rome wasn't sacked in a day. |
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| random Aug 03, 2006 3:01 PM |
>When I see "Linux" or "GNU/Linux" along with Tux, as prominently displayed on Dell's web site as "Microsoft" and the MS Windows logo, then I will agree that they deserve consideration. Until then, they are no more than one arm of Microsoft's sales department. I agree. But just because some geeks in a forum want this to be true, does not make it so. Linux is progressing. I believe whole-heartedly that Linux will be easily available to the masses in the near-future. I think all companies should be supported in their effort (no matter how much) to support Linux. |
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| NoDough Aug 03, 2006 3:06 PM |
>When I see "Linux" or "GNU/Linux" along with Tux, as prominently displayed on Dell's web site as "Microsoft" and the MS Windows logo, then I will agree that they deserve consideration. Until then, they are no more than one arm of Microsoft's sales department. Heh. A line from the fictional SuSE Linux redistribution agreement: All advertising materials carrying the phrase "We recommend Microsoft Windows." shall immediately follow that phrase with "... but we prefer Linux." :-) |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 03, 2006 3:07 PM |
If Dell doesn't want to do desktop Linux, then fine, then let the other vendors do it. |
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| grouch Aug 03, 2006 3:12 PM |
The last time I tried to go through the order process on Dell's website, each step tried to get me to buy MS Windows. If I am allowed any vote toward veto of what goes into the database, I will vote against any vendor who makes it harder to purchase a computer with GNU/Linux preinstalled, or with no OS installed, than they make ordering a computer with MS Windows preinstalled. Both Dell and HP would receive a 'no' vote from me. |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 03, 2006 3:30 PM |
The purpose of the list is to make it easier for desktop Linux shoppers. At this point in time I find dell.com adding more confusion than helping. Dell is still in the "try to trick you into buying MS Windows" category. Dell is probably still being controlled by Microsoft. That is not my problem and it shouldn't be the problem of desktop Linux shoppers. The last time called Dell on the phone and asked about preinstalled Linux they pretended to not know what Linux is. They said, and I quote, "All of our computers come with Microsoft Windows". |
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| random Aug 03, 2006 3:32 PM |
>If Dell doesn't want to do desktop Linux, then fine, then let the other vendors do it. And there are plenty of great vendors that offer desktop Linux. But this list is to include those that sell OS-less PCs at a comfortable price. Dell provides that. Do they "push" Windows? Yes! They sell Windows PCs, as it makes lots of money and there is a very large market for them. Do they "force" Windows? No! If a first-tier vendor gets nothing but flamed for providing an alternate choice just because they cannot make 100% of the people 100% happy, then what is their incentive to even put forth a token effort? Sure, *we* can go elsewhere. What about mom and pop? How would they know about an alternate choice? How would they know where to go? This list? How would they get here? |
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| grouch Aug 03, 2006 3:35 PM |
We will tell "mom and pop". See above. |
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| Scott_Ruecker Aug 03, 2006 3:45 PM |
[HYPERLINK@www.redsevenlinux.com] I talked to them once or twice, cool guys selling computers with Linux on them. For Phoenix, its very cool. |
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| random Aug 03, 2006 3:48 PM |
>The last time I tried to go through the order process on Dell's website, each step tried to get me to buy MS Windows. I just went through both home and small office purchasing (up until the point of, you know, actually ordering) and not once did it say anything about Windows. >Dell recently revamped their site, and as far as I can tell, this is not true. There is a link to Open Source Desktops on the Small Business page, but there appears to be no way to get to it from the Home or Home Office page. A stupid American humbly asks for forgiveness. I forget Dell may not be the same Dell around the world. However, from the Dell USA site, what I said is 100% accurate as I made sure to check before posting. I stand by my argument that any vendor should be supported in making Linux easily available, not flamed. I think that saying Dell is trying to "trick" consumers is EXTREME! I do not feel tricked. I find it hard to believe that you feel tricked, knowing what you know. But I will agree that it is unacceptable that you *call* Dell (this a script-reading call-center monkey, not Michael Dell), and they tell you they sell nothing but Windows PCs. Unacceptable for this list? Okay. Overall I think Dell has some work to do. But if you go to Dell's site (USA at least) to order an OSD, I don't think you have anything to worry about (as far as getting a Windows-less PC, their hardware and design is another matter). |
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| technolalia Aug 03, 2006 5:01 PM |
This subject has often come up on the various ubuntu lists I'm on. Not only for pcs sans windows, but also - especially - for linux-friendly wireless cards. So I happened to be compiling a list of linux-friendly (with some os-agnostic) hardware suppliers in the U.K., which you can find at: [HYPERLINK@technolalia.org] CSS coming when I get round to it. John |
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| jdixon Aug 03, 2006 6:18 PM |
> However, from the Dell USA site, what I said is 100% accurate as I made sure to check before posting. I was at the USA site. I repeat my objection. Starting at the [HYPERLINK@www.dell.com] home page, with the country/region set to United States, I select Home or Home Office from the Solutions for menu. The resulting page has no links to the No-OS PC's, so I then select Desktops from the Browse Our Products menu. Again, the page has no links to the No-OS PC's. As far as I can tell, there is NO way to access the No-OS PC's from the Home and Home Office page. |
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| gvlinux Aug 03, 2006 7:46 PM |
Thank you very much for including The Linux Loft in your database! I am awed that you found us, and grateful. We will soon be adding additional models of the Family Box using other distros and a "home and away suite" designed for travelers. Jonathan Slaff, President The Linux Loft [HYPERLINK@www.linuxloft.com] |
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| dcparris Aug 03, 2006 7:47 PM |
There is no OSD info on this Dell page (which is jdixon's nit, as I understand it): [HYPERLINK@www.dell.com] Even when you try to customize the box, Windows is the only choice. You apparently have to go through the small business page, which many home users would not think to do. After all, they are not a small business. GNU/Linux is not merely a business OS, even though that is its predominant use. The problem is, you have to already know to go through the small business section to get to the OSDs. I see this as problematic, and believe Dell has a ways to go yet before being considered for this list. Frankly, it was companies like Dell that led to this list. Soooo... |
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| jdixon Aug 03, 2006 10:00 PM |
> (which is jdixon's nit, as I understand it): Yes, that's what I'm complaining about. You have to go to one of their business pages to access the OSD pages, at least as far as I can tell. Since the list is defined as being "aimed at the LOWER PRICED Desktops and Laptops. Think consumer product," I don't see how Dell can qualify. |
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| dcparris Aug 03, 2006 10:07 PM |
Well, if it's a low-end business box, I can see it. The problem for me is that they don't seem to make that choice available to the home market. So, unless you already know where to go, it's a pitn. | ||||
| berqui Aug 04, 2006 8:35 AM |
Computers with preinstalled Linux and no-OS computers can be found on : [HYPERLINK@www.ankermann-pc.com] Desktops (SuSE) |
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| rgriman Aug 04, 2006 8:40 AM |
In Spain you've got PC-Box ([HYPERLINK@www.pcbox.com]). They pre-install Mandrake. | ||||
| ChuckNorriz Aug 04, 2006 10:48 AM |
GamePC offers RedHat, SUSE and Fedora. [HYPERLINK@www.gamepc.com] |
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| scronline Aug 04, 2006 12:36 PM |
We are a small custom shop in California that will build a machine anyway you want it regardless of OS. Of course, we have to avoid hardware conflicts, but otherwise you tell us what you want and we quote/build it. In the past 3 years we've only had 1 machine have a problem and that was just a faulty DVD/CDRW drive. While we don't have any "online sales" there's a reason for it. Custom equipment is a bit hard to develop a site for. [HYPERLINK@www.scronline.com] | ||||
| cyber_rigger Aug 04, 2006 3:18 PM |
Attention Vendors, SHOPPING Engines with Linux. Pricescan.com has a "Linux" category for computers. As far as i can tell Pricescan.com offers vendors listings for free. If there is a catch I haven't found it yet. [HYPERLINK@www.pricescan.com] Bizrate.com has a Linux section (Desktops only) but it looks purposely distracting. I can't find if they charge vendors. Pricegrabber.com has a small Linux section (Desktops only). I can't find if they charge vendors. Nextag.com also has "Linux" but it looks like they have a .70 cost per click. [HYPERLINK@merchants.nextag.com] (I guess big companies like Dell can afford it). |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 04, 2006 3:50 PM |
Lenovo to preinstall SuSE [HYPERLINK@www.eweek.com] |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 04, 2006 5:25 PM |
Digg link for the Linux vendor database (pre)announcement. [HYPERLINK@tinyurl.com] This one looks blocked. [HYPERLINK@www.digg.com] |
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| dek Aug 04, 2006 6:21 PM |
There's a small computer shop in Omaha Nebraska that installs Gnu/Linux by preference. It's called Reboot The User. AFAIK, they will install any distro. [HYPERLINK@www.reboottheuser.com] Don K. |
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| djohnston Aug 05, 2006 2:48 AM |
cyber_rigger beat me to it: Lenovo to preinstall SuSE [HYPERLINK@www.desktoplinux.com] |
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| questioner Aug 05, 2006 5:10 AM |
i am a big fan of linux, bsd, etc. but i was wondering, why would anyone pay for a machine that has linux/bsd installed on it? why not just get a windows machine (usually a helluva lot cheaper than what you posted (Dell sells around 449 for a laptop)) and then just repartition it to install whatever the hell you want? just my $0.02 |
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| jimf Aug 05, 2006 6:02 AM |
Well questioner, of course you can do that. I might go a step further and say 'why would anyone do other than build their own computer, thus getting complete control of the hardware spec'. The truth is that its good to have choices for users, both experienced and new. A computer with Linux preinstalled is much more likely to sell to a new user, or, one with minimal building skills. | ||||
| cyber_rigger Aug 05, 2006 7:38 AM |
Here's 100,000 reasons for starters. [HYPERLINK@www.usayd.com] |
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| pogson Aug 05, 2006 7:29 PM |
Here are two small suppliers that have fair variety and great service in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Assembled "value systems" [HYPERLINK@computeravenue.mb.ca] Kits, just add a power supply and case. Also in Saskatoon. [HYPERLINK@www.cbit.ca] Here are two larger suppliers that cover Canada/US. I have dealt with both and they have great selection and service: Select one of many systems, and customize it. Choices include No O/S, XP, Linspire [HYPERLINK@pc.ncix.com] No O/S kits and assembled systems. No O/S means DOS is supplied but not installed... [HYPERLINK@www.tigerdirect.ca] |
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| pogson Aug 06, 2006 8:58 AM |
In reply to a question about the value of Linux pre-installed cyber-rigger gave a link about the malware/viruses/spyware/trojans/bots on the web that wreak havoc with that other OS, especially before XP SP2, but I can give several additional advantages: As usual, I have gone overboard, but there are many advantages to Linux pre-installed. The most important I leave until last: most users of PCs do not do, will not do, and have never done an OS installation. Pre-installation eliminates this barrier for them to enter the wonderful world of desktop Linux. |
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| questioner Aug 06, 2006 9:33 AM |
[HYPERLINK@www.googoo.com.sg] | ||||
| jdixon Aug 06, 2006 11:06 AM |
> [HYPERLINK@www.googoo.com.sg] No OS only as far as I could tell. They don't seem to offer Linux. |
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| pogson Aug 06, 2006 2:12 PM |
I have frequently followed links to Dell.com to read about Linux/NoOS stuff and enjoyed it, but I have found it impossible to search their site for stuff. I sent them an e-mail about it. I searched for "dimension n", for instance, and found no hits. I searched for linux and found a hit for an XP machine. This is either the world's worst-indexed site or they deliberately try to hide some of their products. Are they only selling these things to avoid anti-competition regulations? Why are they selling only on dell.com and not dell.ca? There is obviously a market or they would not have the product. Why not make it easy to find? On the other hand, if you search via Google for "dimension n" the first hit is what we seek. Is it not strange that Google can index their site more effectively than Dell can? If you search Google for Dell linux, you get [HYPERLINK@www.dell.com] and we are off to the races. Further, Dimension n does not seem to be available in Canada but Precision is, pre-installed with RHEL... see [HYPERLINK@www1.ca.dell.com] but it is an expensive beast. |
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| cyber_rigger Aug 07, 2006 12:58 PM |
DesktopLinux.com mentions our list. [ |