a question for smaht coderpersons
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Nov 13, 2006 3:03 PM EDT |
After days of installing FC6 and Ubuntu Edgy and other hawt new distros for review, I got to wondering why the installers are still installing applications for non-existent devices? For example, the default installation for FC6 includes stuff for scanners, bluetooth, pcmcia, and cd-writers even when they do not exist on the box. Would it be so hard to scan for devices that are actually present and not install unnecessary stuff? Or is this one of those things that sounds cool and easy, but isn't? |
| jimf Nov 13, 2006 3:34 PM EDT |
> is this one of those things that sounds cool and easy, but isn't? I've wondered that too. I think that it's much easier to use overkill at this point than to err on the side of missing something, Many devices are pretty much a bunch of text files and really don't require a bunch of room, and most times, new users don't care anyway as long as it all works. Problem is that it continues even into the KDE control panel where their are options to configure things like sony laptops and touchscreens, even if you're not on a sony and never had a touchscreen. Now that's confusing to a new user. Begins to look a lot like stupid and lazy on the part of the developers. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 13, 2006 3:37 PM EDT |
One of the annoyances of Red Hat; it's the same way as FC. That's why distros such as Trustix, EnGarde and Tiny Sofa (all Red Hat based) can call themselves "secure by default." They don't have those unneeded services running by default. If they can do it, I think Red Hat/Fedora can do it. I like having PCMCIA running by default on my desktop, however. And I like that this old tower will go into suspend mode when the battery runs low enough. ;-) |
| incinerator Nov 14, 2006 8:31 AM EDT |
Well, it's not that FC is the only distro or even the only OS that does that, is it? ms windows installs lots of software you don't seem to need by default. However, I still think it's not such a bad idea. The moment you plug in your newly bought printer/scanner/whatnot, the thing works out of the box, isn't that neat? There's enough small-weight distros around to use for smaller computers or server use if you really want to leave that extra stuff alone. The security argument doesn't really hold ground here, either. How does the redundant installation of cd-writing software or pcmcia drivers make a computer less secure? Unless your distro installs all sorts of internet servic demons by default, security won't be a factor, really. There's more about security than just installing packages you need only. You still seem to be caught in that ms windows paradigm here: Buy new device, plug it in, insert CD to install new driver and userland applications to use it. That's not how it works with Linux. The actual driver sits in the kernel and therefore most hardware is supported out of the box unless the powers that be have decided not to include this particular driver in the kernel that ships by default. Userland applications usually come with the desktop environment you install. If you don't install KDE, you won't get kprinter nor digikam nor kooka. You can always compile your own kernel. You can always use a distro that install onlye the bare bones of the OS and then use the package manager to install all the rest you need. Most novice users don't what to do that though. They want to have a smooth install and everything working out of the box. |
| jimf Nov 14, 2006 9:09 AM EDT |
> it's not that FC is the only distro or even the only OS that does that, is it? I don't think TC's comments were ment only for FC, I know mine weren't. > Most novice users don't what to do that though. They want to have a smooth install and everything working out of the box. Pretty much as I saw it. Of course the origional install has to have a full range of devices and services. I think the point is, once the install is completed, why doesn't the installer clean up the unused pieces? |
| number6x Nov 14, 2006 9:18 AM EDT |
With so many devices going USB and firewire, they are also becoming "hot-pluggable", if that's a good term. Just because you don't have a printer or USB stick, or camera plugged in when you install, doesn't mean you won't plug one in next week, or next month. This does lead to overkill for these types of distros. Does Ubuntu still offer the "server" type install? this might lead to fewer installed devices. I would expect that the FC community has quite a few good kickstart installs available that lead to different configurations as well. If they don't, Red Hat or someone should sponsor a library where people can upload them. Neccesity is the mother of invention. I am willing to bet that people in the community have already addressed your needs. I've been using a Slackware derivative, Zenwalk, for the last few months after having used SuSE and Mepis for the last few years. I guess That's how I addressed the issue, by choosing a simpler distro. (Although Zenwalk has all the support I need at a download through netpkg.) |
| tuxchick Nov 14, 2006 9:39 AM EDT |
Everytime someone asks a question like this someone always responds "but what about the clooless noobs"? What about them? My suggestion for clooless noobs is 'get clueful.' How does loading everything but the kitchen sink help clooless noobs anyway? As jimf said, they're looking at all this stuff that doesn't even do anything- how helpful is that. Adding new apps is as easy as aptitude install foo, or yum install foo, so adding stuff later is not the dreadful chore some make it out to be. Which is a separate issue from kernel support for hardware- distros install prefab kernels which are unaffected by package selections. Perhaps hotplugging can evolve to the point of recommending which userland apps to install. That would be a nice feature for experienced users as well- why not have the computer do the boring stuff? That's what they're good at. It's interesting how the status quo is so oft defended in a field that by its nature is evolving and changing very rapidly. |
| jimf Nov 14, 2006 9:56 AM EDT |
> My suggestion for clooless noobs is 'get clueful.' Oh Pleeeze yes!!! Serious though, new users really do have all to much new stuff to learn, though, most of you ancients here have trouble remembering that... Giving people false clues, like devices and other stuff that don't exist, doesn't help the process at all. |
| theboomboomcars Nov 14, 2006 12:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:My suggestion for clooless noobs is 'get clueful.'I am trying. : ) It seems to me that It's not that big of a deal to have the drivers at the ready. But I think it's odd when I go into the configuration menu and it has configuration options for devices that my computer doesn't have, like a battery on my desktop or pcmcia. Wouldn't it be possible to make it so that those options only show up when the devices are detected? That way the system is ready for anything, but noobs like me aren't all confused and thinking "gee I didn't know my computer had a touchscreen monitor." |
| dcparris Nov 14, 2006 3:01 PM EDT |
I have to admit, having laptop battery functionality on a workstation system seems kind of above and beyond - or maybe I mean 'far out'. Really, when are you ever going to plug in your laptop battery to your workstation? |
| jimf Nov 14, 2006 3:29 PM EDT |
> I have to admit, having laptop battery functionality on a workstation system seems kind of above and beyond Heck, Not just the laptop battery, you even have the option to change the brand to Sony and have your new touchscreen too... Who would have thought that upgrading hardware could be this simple and inexpensive :) |
| dcparris Nov 14, 2006 5:07 PM EDT |
Now if I can just get my CRT to recognize my touchscreen commands. ;-) |
| theboomboomcars Nov 15, 2006 5:27 AM EDT |
Maybe you just need to input it harder.: ) |
| dcparris Nov 15, 2006 7:12 AM EDT |
Thanks! Yeah, it worked great. I just have a new problem now. My CRT screen seems to be, um, broken. [yes, I'm kidding.] |
| jimf Nov 15, 2006 7:37 AM EDT |
> [yes, I'm kidding.] Of course 'you' are, but, I'll bet that 'somewhere' out there's a n00b that's poking madly at his CRT screen :D |
| dinotrac Nov 15, 2006 7:50 AM EDT |
>[yes, I'm kidding.] You were? Crap! Now I've gotta find another monitor before my wife gets home. Thanks a lot. |
| dcparris Nov 15, 2006 9:25 AM EDT |
Yeah, well, I could just see some non-tech newbie saying the same thing for real. :-) |
| dinotrac Nov 15, 2006 9:28 AM EDT |
>some non-tech newbie Hey! That's a cut, isn't it? I'll have you know, Rev. SmartyPants, that I'm not newbie. I'm just kind of slow. |
| dcparris Nov 15, 2006 9:32 AM EDT |
:-) |
| tuxchick Nov 16, 2006 9:52 AM EDT |
It's not that far out. How else to explain the irrestistible impulses of most users to jab their big greasy fingers all over computer screens? My last job where I worked for someone else (ew ick jobs, itchy galling yuck) I was the grumpy meanie who yelled at people for doing that to my computer, or even worse, plastering PostIts all over. Man, don't people ever wash their hands, or understand the concepts of "pointing", or "don't gum up stuff"? Now that I work at home I'm even meaner- visitors are forbidden to enter my sacred computer cave. I used to be nicer, but then I barely intercepted in time a large poky dirty finger aimed directly at my nice LCD monitor. Just what I need, busted pixels. All remaining molecules of niceness were excised on the spot. |
| jimf Nov 16, 2006 9:54 AM EDT |
> I was the grumpy meanie who yelled at people for doing that to my computer You too huh :D |
| cr Jan 19, 2007 11:18 AM EDT |
Put a glare screen over the opening. If someone asks why, explain what you're protecting and tell 'em you're saving them from YOUR glare. Then demonstrate the glare. After a few repetitions, you can probably remove the glare screen -- the point will have been made. That's how it was with my kids, anyway: the onscreen PBJ artifacts stopped immediately. |
| tuxchick Jan 19, 2007 12:24 PM EDT |
Hey, not bad. And easier than handcuffs or floor-scrubbings-with-toothbrushes as a memory aid. |
| jimf Jan 19, 2007 12:44 PM EDT |
> And easier than handcuffs or floor-scrubbings-with-toothbrushes as a memory aid. But not as effective as a rapp across the knuckles with the old ruler ;-). |
| cr Jan 19, 2007 4:25 PM EDT |
> But not as effective as a rapp across the knuckles with the old ruler ;-). Best have your resume polished before doing that to coworkers. |
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