How Dell might purposely botch their Linux offering
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| Author | Content |
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| cyber_rigger Mar 29, 2007 11:59 AM EDT |
Dell has recently announced that they will offer preinstalled Linux.
Dell has not yet set a date (few weeks?) or said which distro they will use. Maybe Dell is sincere this time? I'll believe it when I see it. I've been making a list of how Dell could purposely botch their Linux offering and continue to be Microsoft's lapdog. Here's my list so far: * Claim there is no demand^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H * Use some obscure/difficult version of Linux * Charge more than MS Windows (use money to maintain Windows discount) * Dual boot with MS Windows only * Linux on overly expensive machines only * Sell machines where not all hardware works with Linux * Linux machines will only be available in another country * You will have to call and ask for Linux * There will be no configuration page or a configuration that redirects you to MS Windows * No warranty for Linux machines * The Linux machines offered mysteriously become discontinued or out of stock. * Pull another Lenovo * Dell keeps postponing the actual delivery * Just change their minds and just don't offer Linux. * The long shot -- Dell sells nice low cost (MS tax free) machines preinstalled with a beginner friendly Linux, everything works. |
| bigg Mar 29, 2007 12:08 PM EDT |
What you say is not impossible. My view is that they probably want to sell hardware to customers that otherwise would not purchase from them. I don't think Microsoft would pay them to do this. After all, why not just pay Dell to not sell Linux at all? Just the announcement is valuable to the desktop Linux effort. Microsoft is not paying Dell to advertise for Linux. Sometimes people can be pretty skeptical. Almost like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists on Digg. |
| cyber_rigger Mar 29, 2007 12:22 PM EDT |
>After all, why not just pay Dell to not sell Linux at all? Microsoft essentially did this at one time, before the antitrust trial. Time will tell if Dell is serious or this is just another PR stunt. |
| bigg Mar 29, 2007 12:26 PM EDT |
> Time will tell if Dell is serious or just another PR stunt. Agreed, but a PR stunt would be more likely for their own benefit than for Microsoft's. (Disclaimer: I have a minority view about Microsoft and their power to influence everything that takes place in the market.) |
| dinotrac Mar 29, 2007 2:08 PM EDT |
cyber_rigger: At some point, you've got to take off the "sky is falling because Microsoft still exists" cap and ask where a company makes its money. Dell makes money by selling computers. If loading Linux will sell more computers profitably, then Gosh!!, Dell will do that. in the end, keeping the customer satisfied matters a lot more than keeping Microsoft satisfied. Let's not forget, Microsoft doesn't want to tick off Dell any more than Dell wants to tick off Microsoft. it's the old "If you borrow $10,000, the bank owns you. if you borrow $100,000,000, you own the bank" thing. Dell sells a LOT of Microsoft. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 29, 2007 2:35 PM EDT |
From what I can gather from this and other articles: > Use some obscure/difficult version of Linux Probably not. They wouldn't have asked us for distro preferences. Most likely it'll be one from the list of distro's on the poll -- or Debian. My guess would be a choice of Suse or Ubuntu. > Charge more than MS Windows (use money to maintain Windows discount) Possibly > Dual boot with MS Windows only Highly unlikely. The one thing MS dislikes more than Linux PC's is dual boot CD's. They wouldn;t allow Dell to sell dual boot PC's. > Linux on overly expensive machines only Could be. > Sell machines where not all hardware works with Linux Very unlikely, though some hardware probably comes with non-free drivers. > Linux machines will only be available in another country Not likely. Dell would get a huge backlash if they did this. > You will have to call and ask for Linux > There will be no configuration page or a configuration that redirects you to MS Windows Not according to the article. > No warranty for Linux machines From the article probably only hardware warranty. No software warranty. > The Linux machines offered mysteriously become discontinued or out of stock. > Change their minds and just don't offer Linux. The backlash would be too big I think. |
| Scott_Ruecker Mar 29, 2007 3:15 PM EDT |
I got twenty bucks that they either decide to install SuSE and/or the computer comes with Vista installed on it and they send along the SuSE install disks. A computer that has the hardware required for Vista will make Dell a lot more money than the "bare bones" boxes that Linux will run very fast and very well on. I have been getting my first real taste of Vista today..brain overload..too many things to say at once..hang on a second.. click-click..BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Ahhh, much better.. I will post more on this later.. You know, It looks better with those three extra holes in it anyway. |
| swbrown Mar 29, 2007 6:40 PM EDT |
As long as the hardware is Linux-compatible and supported and my money's not funding Mircosoft (which now happens if you pay for SUSE), it's all good. I can just install over top of it. |
| Scott_Ruecker Mar 29, 2007 7:00 PM EDT |
You all realize that we are talking about a company that has modified the hardware they sell so that the buyer can only get replacements from them? I know that all of the big box manufacturers have been guilty of doing it but Dell is the most notorious of them. And now all of a sudden they're going to start pre-install Linux after a long and fruitful relationship with Microsoft? I guess there is the beginning of a pattern since in the last month or so has Dell actually started to sell desktop and laptop computers with AMD chips instead of Intel? Dell has always been a strong partner for Intel and Microsoft but it seems that has changed... I am still a pessimist regarding this.. |
| tuxchick Mar 29, 2007 7:55 PM EDT |
Since all of this Linux activity coincides with Michael Dell's return to being an actual boss, I don't think it's fake. Sure, I was the first to scoff, but I think they're serious. They're going to look like awful dopes if they go 'aw, see, we told you it wouldn't work and it's all them FOSS hippie's fault.' |
| jdixon Mar 29, 2007 8:11 PM EDT |
> Sure, I was the first to scoff, but I think they're serious. Well, almost 120 thousand votes is enough to get the attention of most people. The standard rule is that for every one person who votes, there are at least 10 who won't bother. If true, and if the votes weren't bogus (I'm sure Dell did their best to limit multiple votes, but who knows), then that would translate to over 1 million people wanting to buy Linux computers from Dell. At $300+ per, that's a nice chunk of revenue. We'll just have to wait and see... Added: If they do in fact offer Linux PC's for a reasonable price, I'll probably buy one. I've been doing some priceing at MWave, and I can build myself a reasonable machine for about $300, so if the complete Dell preloaded system is less than $350, it's probably worth it. |
| bigg Mar 29, 2007 8:17 PM EDT |
I do feel bad for the impact this will have on the smaller Linux retailers, like system76. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 30, 2007 12:55 AM EDT |
> Well, almost 120 thousand votes is enough to get the attention of most people. Yes, but how many people voted simply because they want to see a major OEM offer Linux preinstalled, but have no intention of actually buying a Dell machine? I might buy a Dell laptop if they come with Linux, but there's no way I'll ever buy a Dell desktop (for myself that is. I probably would recommend them to non-geek family members). |
| jdixon Mar 30, 2007 3:22 AM EDT |
> Yes, but how many people voted simply because they want to see a major OEM offer Linux preinstalled, but have no intention of actually buying a Dell machine? No way of knowing, but Dell has done surveys and had surveys done for them in the past. I'm sure they know the percentages involved. |
| Scott_Ruecker Mar 30, 2007 8:24 AM EDT |
The beauty of statistics is that you can make them say just about anything but something I just realized is that what if Dell is using this as a bargaining chip? Consider this, 1. Dell had a booth at SCaLE 5x and I know they have participated in other expos as well. 2. They decide to start a site and openly ask what their customers and potential customers want installed on the computer. 3. Allow the press to take off with it and see where it leads. Which has shown that there really some demand for Linux in the market otherwise it wouldn't continue to be getting the press it is receiving. 4. I can only imagine that they have done some private studies of their own to either confirm or deny what they are seeing in the their voting site and the press from it. It looks like they are trying to gather evidence see if there is a trend to be found. If there is they can use that information an many many ways. |
| cyber_rigger Mar 30, 2007 2:04 PM EDT |
>what if Dell is using this as a bargaining chip? duhhh!! Dell was sort of selling Linux machines right before XP came out, then.... http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/08/03/dell.dumps.lin... Now we have Vista.. Déjà vu all over again. I thought it would be fun to guess how Dell will kill their Linux offering (after Microsoft gives them a good deal on Vista). O.K., I will add this one long shot to my list: Dell sells nice low cost (MS tax free) machines preinstalled with a beginner friendly Linux, everything works. |
| ABCC Mar 30, 2007 6:31 PM EDT |
"You know, It looks better with those three extra holes in it anyway." Those aren't holes, those are features! |
| jimf Mar 30, 2007 6:39 PM EDT |
> click-click..BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Ahhh, much better.. A bigger (.45") hole can be made with 'Cachunk.. Boom, Boom, Boom', or if you prefer the look of smaller holes for venting try your 12Ga with buckshot, but that's really loud, so, you may want to go outside. |
| Scott_Ruecker Mar 30, 2007 6:48 PM EDT |
I really want to use a .44 Magnum but I think I would end up destroying my whole office in the process. Its not the room's fault Vista sucks large uncooked hot dogs. |
| cyber_rigger May 24, 2007 8:33 AM EDT |
Looks like we may have a "Charge more than MS Windows" http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12396/1023/ |
| Sander_Marechal May 24, 2007 3:09 PM EDT |
That thing was written before the Ubuntu Dell site opened. It's open now. Please compare hardware configuration and pricing. Or just wait a few hours. I bet a couple of bloggers are already doing that right now. |
| Aladdin_Sane May 24, 2007 3:32 PM EDT |
Look hard. Look very hard. Enter Dell as the usual user does: go to dell.com, choose desktops; Home and Home Office. Any Linux or "Open Source" there? |
| cyber_rigger May 24, 2007 6:49 PM EDT |
Here's the secret hidden page. http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=... I did a comparison with a Linux/Vista notebook. I kept everything as equal as I could. The site would not let me pick equal graphic cards. The MS Vista configuration forced a higher end card. The Linux configuration would not allow it. Other than that the Linux machine was about $70 cheaper which would about be the difference in the cards. |
| richo123 May 24, 2007 7:04 PM EDT |
Spot on Cyber (except it amounts to $80 difference actually). Lenovo price the difference in graphics cards at $75: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/systemconfig.r... So Dell believe Windows is worth $5. Can't disagree with that ;-) ;-) ;-) |
| rijelkentaurus May 24, 2007 7:07 PM EDT |
Quoting: So Dell believe Windows is worth $5. They're actually being mighty generous with that assessment. ;) |
| dcparris May 24, 2007 7:17 PM EDT |
Once you get past the home page, you will notice a menu at the top, as on this page:
http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/notebooks... Clicking on the menu bar brings up a menu that includes the FOSS/Ubuntu links. Not the most intuitive approach, in my view. I have raised my concerns with JPD. Will post a note on this in the AM. |
| cyber_rigger May 24, 2007 7:21 PM EDT |
I checked again. Here is what I got. I tried to match the Ubuntu hardware to the MS Vista hardware. Ubuntu Inspiron E1505N DUO processor T2350 2MB Cache/1.86GHz Ubuntu Edition version 7.04 [Included in Price] 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display with TrueLife(glossy) 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm 120GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive [Included in Price 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive [Included in Price] Intel® Graphics Media Ac celerator 950 Integrated Audio 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery [Included in Price] Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g [Included in Price] 1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day $814 MS Vista Inspiron E1505 DUO T2350 (1.86GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533MHz FSB) Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium [Included in Price] 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display with TrueLife(glossy) 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm Size: 120GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) [Included in Price] 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive [Included in Price] 256MB ATI MOBILITY RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory Integrated Audio 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery Dell Wireless 1390b/g (54Mbps) 1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day $899 Note that the MS Vista machine has a higher end graphic card. The wireless cards look different. |
| Sander_Marechal May 24, 2007 10:36 PM EDT |
IIRC the Intel wireless in the Ubuntu machine is more expensive than the Broadcom/Dell in the Vista machine. |
| theboomboomcars May 25, 2007 8:12 PM EDT |
Intel® Core™ DUO processor T2350 2MB Cache/1.86GHz
Ubuntu Edition version 7.04
15.4 inch UltraSharp™ Wide Screen WXGA+ Display with TrueLife™
1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm
120GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive edit
24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive edit
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ $873 You can get a better 3D card if you upgrade the monitor on the laptop. Above is what I was able to configure with similar specs as the Vista machine. It's still $25 cheaper and has a higher resolution panel. I would guess that the Nvidia and the ATI cards are pretty comparable. |
| cyber_rigger May 25, 2007 8:59 PM EDT |
>$25 cheaper I came up with $943 if you also get the 1Yr In-Home Service (+$70). I was trying to match the details of the MS Windows offer. Thanks for the info about getting the nvidia card. |
| tracyanne May 25, 2007 10:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:Linux machines will only be available in another country They are for me, I'm in Australia, the Linux offering is in the US. Quoting:You will have to call and ask for Linux When I do I'm told that it's only available in the US |
| Aladdin_Sane May 26, 2007 2:00 AM EDT |
>>Look hard. Look very hard. Enter Dell as the usual user does: go to dell.com, choose desktops; Home and Home Office. Any Linux or "Open Source" there? For the record, this was fixed the day after the release. |
| cyber_rigger Jun 05, 2007 7:51 AM EDT |
Dell appears to be having less hardware warranty for systems with Ubuntu. http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/06/05/145238.shtml |
| jdixon Jun 05, 2007 8:05 AM EDT |
> Dell appears to be having less hardware warranty for systems with Ubuntu Sort of. What they offer is their standard "1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day" service. With a Windows machine you have the option to extend that warranty for up to 4 years. With a Windows machine you also have the option of getting their "CompleteCare Accidental Damage Protection" package for 1 to 4 years. That's not available with the Ubuntu machines. So yes, the complaint is valid, but they do offer their standard warranty. There are a number of other options not available with the Ubuntu machines. I could compile a complete list, but most of them are reasonable (no virus scanner option, for example). |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 05, 2007 8:05 AM EDT |
How boring. Yet another Dell oversight, looks to me. They forgot to attach the SKU for CompleteCare to the n-Series Portable systems. I think they should fix that. The Slashdot blurb asserts that Dell offers no hardware warranty at all. This is, of course, false. CompleteCare for Portables is a good idea in some cases: It is actually Dell-branded insurance, rather than and over-and-above a warranty, and is hence not available in all states, last I heard. |
| jdixon Jun 05, 2007 8:10 AM EDT |
> Yet another Dell oversight, looks to me. Possible, perhaps even likely. It's also possible that hey made the legitimate judgment that most Linux users wouldn't buy the service, and so decided not to offer it. In either case, since they do offer their industry standard warranty, I don't see anything to complain about. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 05, 2007 8:19 AM EDT |
UPDATE: Dell is also not offering the Extended (beyond 1 year) warranties on Ubuntu n-Series, including the high-end XPS. As pointed out on IdeaStorm this makes no sense at all, and is far from the default. Even when Dell does not want to offer an extended warranty on a system, they often do, for one arm and one leg. http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/67976 Great quote from there: "Complete Care (tm) is a [form of protection]. Is Dell telling me they are afraid the laws of physics will have a greater impact on a Ubuntu laptop? The mass of the object striking the Dell is the same regardless of the OS. Heck, if you run Ubuntu instead of Vista, you are far less likely to accidentally throw your laptop into a brick wall." (Edit: Hmm, looks like we are posting on top of each other. I guess 1 year is their standard on client/consumer systems. It is not on servers, usually.) |
| jdixon Jun 05, 2007 8:57 AM EDT |
> It is not on servers, usually. AFIAK, you're correct. I believe the industry standard on servers is three years, though I haven't checked recently. These are being marketed as consumer systems however. I'm sure if enough people tell Dell they want the option for an extended warranty and/or accident coverage, Dell will offer it. How many enough might be is a question I'm not competent to answer. In general, except for the difficulty in finding the systems (and even that is far better than the old N systems were), I think Dell has done a good job with their Ubuntu offerings. It's unfortunate that they didn't meet my immediate needs, but I'll be keeping an eye on them and we'll see what happens. |
| JohnPatDell Jun 05, 2007 11:24 AM EDT |
It all boils down to a configurator glitch we had over the weekend. Should be resolved soon. We just posted details on our blog: http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/06/05/17450.aspx |
| jdixon Jun 05, 2007 11:34 AM EDT |
Thanks for the update, John. |
| dinotrac Jun 05, 2007 12:48 PM EDT |
>Customers who ordered systems when the extended warranty and CompleteCare option weren’t available will have the opportunity to upgrade at original price. More details soon. Important for 2 reasons: 1. Doesn't sound like Dell is trying to botch its Linux offering. Sounds like they're trying reasonably hard and running into the things that often happen when great big companies try to turn on a dime. 2. Hmmmm...Doesn't that wording make it sound like somebody has actually bought a few of these things? 3. Hooray. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 05, 2007 1:28 PM EDT |
>>It all boils down to a configurator glitch Whew. It's not like Dell to pass up a chance to make money on stuff like warranty attachments. Can anybody mod Slashdot down one for us? |
| jdixon Jun 05, 2007 1:47 PM EDT |
> Can anybody mod Slashdot down one for us? I modded Slashdot all the way out of my bookmarks years ago. |
| Teron Jun 07, 2007 3:04 AM EDT |
I configured a 1505N and a 1505 to be as similar as possible. I saved the summary pages, if someone wants to view them. What I noted: 1.The Linux machine is only offered protection against accidents, no theft protection is available. (This DOES show up as a somewhat lower price on Linux warranty.) 2. The Linux machine ships with Nvidia instead of Ati (wise move. I just don't know if the cards are comparable) 3. The Vista machine has a bajillion different options available, whereas the Ubuntu one has few (Understandable. Still, options to buy a printer, etc. might not be bad with Linux machines) 4. You get 75 "Dell Dollars" for buying a 4-year warranty for the Vista machine. This is not the case with the Linux machine. In the end, costs. Ubuntu vs. Vista Before discounts: 2 212 vs. 2 281 After discounts: 2 012 vs. 2 032 The Vista machine gets 49 dollars' worth of discounts from somewhere. Where? PS. Does anyone have a small webspace where I could host a .zip file? It contains the summaries of the above two machines, so other people could check the comparison for faults. Overall, I'm pleasantly surprised by the results. Keep up the good work, and bring those machines to Finland, dammit! I'm sick of seeing stores full of Vista PCs, with only a couple Macs/XP machines holed in a corner, if that! EDIT: One more suggestion: The pic on the Ubuntu software support config screen is lean, mean and shiny. What if it was made into a small banner and put under the "Still looking for XP?" banners? That would solve the findability problems in one fell swoop. Please, crack heads if necessary. The Ubuntu pic: http://i.dell.com/images/global/products/314x314/dhs_ubuntu_... The "Still Looking for XP?" pic: http://i.dell.com/images/us/segments/dhs/winxp_fragment.jpg |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 07, 2007 3:24 AM EDT |
>>I'm sick of seeing stores full of Vista PCs Traditionally, Dell does not sell in stores, only direct. Theoretically, you could buy the system from the American web site, export it, and then do an international warranty transfer. (NOTE: This may not be legal on some high-end workstations and servers.) >>The Vista machine gets 49 dollars' worth of discounts from somewhere. Where? Almost certainly from the "crapware" those systems ship with. I'm told Ubuntu systems do not have this "customer-requested" feature. (Yet.) >>1.The Linux machine is only offered protection against accidents, no theft protection is available. That's odd. >>...contains the summaries of the above two machines... I would not expend the effort. Dell changes what is available, and prices, on the web site continually. That does not mean I think your comparison is invalid. What is very good here, is that when Dell sold Red Hat on all their product lines in 1999-2001, the Linux system always came out as costing more than Windows, no matter how you tried to do an "apples-to-apples" comparison on the web site. |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 4:13 AM EDT |
Alladin_sane : Yes. I agree. Whether ideal or not, it seems that Dell has actually made a serious effort to provide attractive offerings. As their experience (and, one hopes, sales volume) grows, I anticipate even better things. As to crapware...I agree again. Tis a fact of life: The difference in cost between Linux and Windows systems is based on more than the difference in price between Linux and Windows. Let's face it: Linux is not a big volume desktop machine. A software company that can get 1% of Windows users to buy their product makes a bundle. 1% of Linux users, not so much. Besides, in free software land there are free alternatives to many things. And -- oh -- not much demand for antivirus stuff. |
| NoDough Jun 07, 2007 9:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:>>1.The Linux machine is only offered protection against accidents, no theft protection is available.Clearly, the Linux machine is perceived as much more valuable and, therefore, is a greater theft risk. ;-) |
| dinotrac Jun 07, 2007 9:24 AM EDT |
>Clearly, the Linux machine is perceived as much more valuable and, therefore, is a greater theft risk. ;-) Makes sense to me! |
| cyber_rigger Jun 07, 2007 6:52 PM EDT |
Hell hath frozen over. Dell has a desktop Linux mention, and link (sometimes), on their homepage http://www.dell.com/ . You may have to refresh/reload it a few times but I got an Ubuntu ad. I clicked on the big Ubuntu picture and it went to the Ubuntu machines page. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 08, 2007 6:48 AM EDT |
cyber_rigger: You mean the page where Dell tries to sell you Windows before you get to the Linux systems?Quoting:Not sure Open Source is for You? |
| dinotrac Jun 08, 2007 7:06 AM EDT |
alladin_sane : Umm ... So now we're offended by customer-friendly web sites? |
| dcparris Jun 08, 2007 7:29 AM EDT |
Other vendors have had issues with customers ordering the wrong thing because they don't understand the difference. I think it's pretty wise on Dell's part to make sure the customer really is looking for Ubuntu. I think most non-techies would be happy to know they could be making a mistake - whichever way that runs. That was an issue with another vendor in our DB. |
| cyber_rigger Jun 08, 2007 7:31 AM EDT |
Although it's not a side-by-side comparison chart of Ubuntu and Vista, so far it looks like a good start. |
| jdixon Jun 08, 2007 7:36 AM EDT |
> So now we're offended by customer-friendly web sites? Well, Dino, that depends on which customer you are doesn't it? If you're someone who knows nothing about Linux, then it's a nice friendly warning. If you're someone who already knows they want Linux, it's an intrusion which delays your ability to purchase the product. Given that most of Dell's customers aren't going to know anything about Linux, it's probably a good thing which dissuades the casual browser from buying a system they won't actually want; but that doesn't change the fact that it's an irritant to someone who actually does know what they want. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 08, 2007 7:38 AM EDT |
>>So now we're offended by customer-friendly web sites? No, just didn't feel like going off on a rant. At least not today. :-) |
| dinotrac Jun 08, 2007 7:41 AM EDT |
>At least not today. :-) Always best to save a good rant for when the juices are percolating! |
| Teron Jul 10, 2007 4:17 AM EDT |
http://www.devside.net/blog/dell-ubuntu-lies I can confirm that thing. Just configured two identical Inspiron 1420's, and, sure enough, the Vista machine turned out $205 cheaper than an equivalent Ubuntu offering. Again, I've saved the summaries if someone's interested. IdeaStorm link to get something done: http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/71460/Offer_at_least_o... Seems it's back to 2nd-class citizenry. So not impressed by this. An additional thing I noticed with this is that LoJack theft protection isn't still offered on Ubuntu machines (Does still show in price, though - the accidental damage protection is somewhat cheaper on Ubuntu machines) The weird thing is, the Inspiron 1420N doesn't have the option for a 4-year warranty, while the Vista-based counterpart does. EDIT: Another IdeaStorm link. This has more people behind it than the last one. http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/71327/Explain_why_you_... |
| dinotrac Jul 10, 2007 5:01 AM EDT |
Teron - You could try being a bit more honest in your post. The prices you cite on the Windows machine include a special offer that is not available on the Linux machine. It raises a legitimate question: Why isn't the offer available on the Linux machine? The answer may have nothing to do with Dell making Linux a second class citizen and it may. |
| Teron Jul 10, 2007 5:21 AM EDT |
That's the thing. The hardware's identical in all ways - the only thing that differs is the operating system. Gah. Yeah, should've mentioned the special offers. Still, why don't we have those? As much as I'd love to buy a Linux-based Dell machine when they land to Finland, if the 'doze machines get 200 euros' worth of discounts, it sure as hell won't be a Dell for me. I ain't buying M$. Neither am I going to pay 200€ to say "No" to them. |
| dinotrac Jul 10, 2007 5:35 AM EDT |
>Still, why don't we have those? It's a great question. It may be that Linux is a second class citizen at Dell, or it may be that special offers come from a part of Dell that the folks doing Linux machines haven't yet integrated with, or, it may even be that Linux machines will be getting their own special offers not available on Vista boxes. The answer matters. Case 1 is simply unacceptable. Case 2 is understandable but needs to be fixed post haste. Case 3, so long as the frequency and nature of offers is comparable, is just fine by me. |
| jsusanka Jul 10, 2007 6:12 AM EDT |
I am wondering if we could get some kind of official press statement from dell that explains the difference - at least in color - why does vista have 3 or 4 free colors and ubuntu has jet black. is it manufacturing? microsoft buying some of the upgrades? last I checked upgrading memory and hard drive was no less difficult on ubuntu that it is on windows. could lxer email michael dell or something or even canonical? |
| hackmeister Jul 10, 2007 6:32 AM EDT |
Tommorow night we're interviewing John Hull (manager of Dells' Linux OS technologies team). I'll be sure to ask why the comparable Windows machine is cheaper than the Linux boxes. I'd like to know. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jul 10, 2007 7:02 AM EDT |
hackmeister:
>>Tommorow night we're interviewing John Hull... May I ask who "we" is? I'd be very interested in reading the interview (John Hull was my last boss at Dell). I hope it will be posted here at LXer. dinotrac: >>It may be that Linux is a second class citizen at Dell... Please understand that Dell is a very large organization. I've worked at several campuses, but all here in the greater Austin/Round Rock area. Overall, Linux could be called a "third-class citizen" at Dell, except that there are no candidates for 2nd (used to be Novell Netware, but that isn't true anymore). Things change. Realize the areas I worked for were all Linux areas: Server Linux support, IT Linux Storage, and Linux Engineering. Here's an anecdote that I think sums up: I asked the head architect in Linux Engineering if there was a Microsoft Lab at Dell that did what we did (testing for bugs on new HW/OS SW in my case). I was wondering why we never heard from them. When he finally grasped the (apparently naive) question, he laughed, "There's a whole MS department that does what we do in Dell." (Of course, I knew that.) He never told me where it was or what it was called. Apparently what they do in MS testing is irrelevant to finding Linux OS problems on Dell HW, despite the HW being the same in both cases, and the HW Dell sells being the only scope of interest to Dell. All the work where HW is the source of the problem is duplicated between labs, was the only conclusion I was left to draw from this. I was also wondering how the MS version of OS development/testing lab dealt with the bugs they found. In the Linux Lab we would frequently drill down in the source code to the exact line of source where the problem existed. I just couldn't (can't) imagine MS test/dev teams doing the same with the MS source code. |
| hackmeister Jul 10, 2007 7:31 AM EDT |
Aladdin_Sane:
>> May I ask who "we" is? ...
Sorry. We are The Linux Link Tech Show:
http://tllts.org I'll post a link to the audio of the show on Thursday morning. |
| Abe Jul 10, 2007 8:31 AM EDT |
Quoting:Seems it's back to 2nd-class citizenry. So not impressed by this.I must say, I was the bigger doubter of Dell seriously offering pre-installed Linux on their desktops. Seeing what they have done is simply amazing now they are making it available in foreign countries too. In my opinion (IMO), It would have been a lot easier process for Dell to offer Linux by simply changing all their offers (web sites and others) and configuration tools to enable customers to specify the OS. Of course there will be some that need special attention when Linux is selected, on the other hand, a simple note like "Linux not certified yet on this configuration" would have been sufficient. Of course they will have to add the appropriate cost of the OS selected, which they might not want to do or the contract doesn't allow them to. This would have avoided any confusion about whether Dell is treating Linux as a 2nd-class citizen or not. |
| bigg Jul 10, 2007 8:55 AM EDT |
Having just bought a new work computer from Dell, I can say that a single example is not informative at all. There are many price disparities in both directions. In my case, I needed an AMD processor (for my work Intel is evil and AMD is great, due to the freely available ACML). I checked through all the Windows and FreeDOS offerings that met my criteria, and the Windows boxes were always at least $150 higher. In the end my employer refused to buy a computer without Windows, so I added a few extras like a second hard drive, and they spent $300 more than my original request. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jul 10, 2007 10:29 AM EDT |
>>We are The Linux Link Tech Show: Very cool. Thanks! |
| number6x Jul 11, 2007 6:24 AM EDT |
Dell has added the free memory and free hard disk option to the Ubuntu 1420N laptop.
[url=http://www.dell.com/content/products/RBIredirect.aspx?rbi=GKiitGAbBa2SB 6V9bxpRyvwm4g6Tn36wTwLVrus 1Yk1iSYlI8tpShc0L6a76U PNPQW6Fs1nCCDicebDnm2btvEOW25SUbLBIqLoia1xPNpFQZUNDh6eqvQMQy2FTCCP/cvzoiT1C6dicGp8xQuUh2FsDz5E1LfzodbMCumnA=]http://www.dell.com/content/products/RBIredirect.aspx?rbi=GK...[/url] These are the discounts that were available on the Vista 1420 yesterday, but not on the Linux version. They are now included on the Linux version as well, bringing the prices back in line. Dell seems to have reacted quickly. |
| dinotrac Jul 11, 2007 6:44 AM EDT |
6x - That's just added support to what should be obvious by now: Dell is serious about offering Linux. They may not offer it forever and they may not believe that it will be a very large part of their business, but they are offering it. Good for them. Good for us. |
| jdixon Jul 11, 2007 7:08 AM EDT |
> Good for them. Agreed. I've been pleasantly surprised at how quickly and well Dell is responding to the inevitable problems which have cropped up in this process. They are, IMO, doing an excellent job. If only they had offered Ubuntu on their AMD models when I needed a new system. I had a system all picked out, but they didn't offer it with Ubuntu, only Windows. :( |
| dinotrac Jul 11, 2007 7:38 AM EDT |
>They are, IMO, doing an excellent job. They really are. They are exceeding my jaded expectations, born of many years in very large corporations. |
| Abe Jul 11, 2007 10:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:They may not offer it forever and they may not believe that it will be a very large part of their business, but they are offering it.Being cautious a bit aren't we! :) Very valid point. We never know when MS would grant Dell an offer they can't refuse. they could sweeten it up to the extreme and they can afford doing that for now. |
| dinotrac Jul 11, 2007 10:56 AM EDT |
>We never know when MS would grant Dell an offer they can't refuse. Could happen, but I doubt it. I think Dell is in one of those "Borrow a little, the bank owns you. Borrow a lot, you own the bank" situations. Dell needs Microsoft, but Microsoft needs Dell. If Microsoft seriously hurts Dell, it hurts itself, too. At this point, I'll bet Dell is very happy to sell oodles of Microsoft products, but even happier to keep the folks in Redmond just a wee bit nervous. |
| jdixon Jul 11, 2007 11:08 AM EDT |
>...but even happier to keep the folks in Redmond just a wee bit nervous. And all indications from Dell are that the Ubuntu boxes are selling well enough to do exactly that. We'll probably never see the actual sales figures, but Dell seems very pleased with the response so far. |
| Abe Jul 11, 2007 11:12 AM EDT |
Quoting:but even happier to keep the folks in Redmond just a wee bit nervous.Something going on Dino, I agree with you on most of your posts today. It's scary. I had this feeling when Dell first made their latest announcement, I am glad they finally got the courage to do it. MS is no more the scary Gorilla (thanks to FOSS) it used to be and there are many who want a piece of it. MS is getting into a bind and it is going to be pretty hard for them to get out of it. |
| dinotrac Jul 11, 2007 11:25 AM EDT |
>MS is getting into a bind and it is going to be pretty hard for them to get out of it. Warning: I'm afraid you may agree with me one more time... Ding dong, the witch is dead! The witch is dead, the witch is dead. Ding dong, the wicket witch is dead. |
| Abe Jul 11, 2007 11:29 AM EDT |
Quoting:Ding dong, the witch is dead!Caution, Caution. The witches are known to revive themselves. |
| NoDough Jul 11, 2007 5:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:...the wicket witch is dead.Dang those croquet playing witches! |
| dinotrac Jul 11, 2007 6:18 PM EDT |
>Dang those croquet playing witches! Uups! |
| hackmeister Jul 12, 2007 2:51 AM EDT |
Here are the audio files from last night's show:
http://tllts.org/audio/tllts_200-07-11-07.ogg
http://tllts.org/audio/tllts_200-07-11-07.mp3 The interview with John Hull starts at about the 12:45 mark. Enjoy Pat |
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