This should never have been posted on lxer
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| nixternal May 31, 2007 11:36 PM EDT |
re: http://blog.nixternal.com/2007.06.01/re-heal-thy-self/ Anyways...This post is wrong from the beginning. The only thing right is he praised the openSUSE community. He claims that the Novell Microsoft deal has hurt Novell's bottom line, yet if you check out http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=NOVL&t=6m that just goes to show that since the announcement, Novell's profits are on a record setting rise. I have researched this, and it seems the deal has added money to Novell's pocket. Shame on you for reporting FUD and lies. Also, Novell's target is the Enterprise, not the so called "Real America". I think it is a shame that you point the finger at Novell and tell them to market Linux to "Real America". Why is it Novell's job to do this? Seeing as Linux is a community contribution, shouldn't the community be doing this? Grassroots and in some locations guerrilla marketing? This entire post was created from imagination, it had no real testament nor did it contain anything accurate. LXer, please do us all a favor and make sure this type of crud doesn't hit my RSS again please. Thank you. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 01, 2007 12:17 AM EDT |
Why shouldn't it be posted? It's Linux news and it's worth discussing. By your reasoning we shouldn't post MS's patent FUD either, or SCO stories, or an Enderle story (to poke holes in), etcetera. I suggest you direct your comment to the writer of the article, not LXer. |
| rijelkentaurus Jun 01, 2007 3:40 AM EDT |
Quoting: Anyways...This post is wrong from the beginning. Quoting: LXer, please do us all a favor and make sure this type of crud doesn't hit my RSS again please. Thank you. By all means, if you disagree with it then post a response against it (which you have done: kudos!). I'll take it upon myself to razz in your general direction, however, and assert that I agree with Ken far more often than I disagree. We need more people like him in the Linux community, not less. Unfortunately, I have not the time to post in detail. Sorry...that blasted work thing! And I don't understand how it does us all a favor to make sure this "crud" doesn't hit your RSS again...I see no personal gain in it for me. Speak for yourself on that matter, not on behalf of the community at large. |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2007 5:15 AM EDT |
Should never have been posted? Well crap on that. However, I am forced to agree with your overall point. Novell has never been in the "Real America" business. When it tried -- with WordPerfect/Quattro/Paradox, it failed. Novell's roots are in serving Corporate America and it is completely OK for them to focus on that. That's what Red Hat does, and they don't seem to be getting under your skin. Remember all of those Linux distros out there? Perhaps you've forgotten about Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, Linspire,Mandriva, Mepis, and on and on and on... At least you remembered opensuse. One advantage of multiple distros is that no distro has to be Everything to Everybody. |
| bigg Jun 01, 2007 5:44 AM EDT |
I do agree largely with the argument that Novell could build a bridge by marketing Linux. (IMO the largest reason why Linux has such a low market share.) However, two things about that are problematic. (1) opensuse is not the best distribution for newbies. (2) The Linux community's friendship tends to be "my way or no way". We'd still hear "It's good that they're marketing Linux. Now if they'd just cancel the deal with Microsoft, I'd love them." |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2007 5:51 AM EDT |
>The Linux community's friendship tends to be "my way or no way" Yeah. Somebody really ought to write a how-to on recognizing the difference between friends you're unhappy with and real enemies. |
| dcparris Jun 01, 2007 6:04 AM EDT |
nixternal: LXer posts stories based on their relevance, not necessarily their accuracy. It is up to readers to guage the accuracy and overall value of a given story. Here at LXer, we call it freedom - freedom of the press, freedom of expression, and freedom of the reader. We even post stuff we, as editors, believe to be pure crap, simply because people are free to express themselves. While we work to ensure the accuracy of our own original content, we cannot do the same for external content. Some have sought in the past to convince us to become a propaganda site - something we refused to do then and now. Just use your noggin, and know that you might find many here who agree with your comments and/or general point of view. Thanks! Don |
| kozmcrae Jun 01, 2007 6:06 AM EDT |
Do platforms and applications migrate from the enterprise to the home or from the home to the enterprise? Is there any cross migration? And are past patterns of migration a good indicator of future migration patterns? I don't think advertising Linux to the home user would hurt Novell at all. It certainly would garner some good graces from the community. I also think you'd be hard pressed to find an enterprise that hasn't been made aware through all the nonsense with Microsoft and vouchers that Novell is selling Linux. The enterprise market is saturated with information about Novell selling Linux. That leaves the home as the untrodden pastures. |
| bigg Jun 01, 2007 6:14 AM EDT |
> That leaves the home as the untrodden pastures. Exactly. That's what would make desktop Linux marketing very effective. A single TV ad would give Linux name recognition. We're not even to the stage yet of convincing "the average Windows user" to switch to Linux. First we have to make it so that 50% of Windows users have even heard of Linux. Then we can worry about converting them. |
| ottawalonndon Jun 01, 2007 7:07 AM EDT |
dcparris wrote:
> It is up to readers to guage the accuracy and overall value of a
> given story. Here at LXer, we call it freedom - freedom of the press,
> freedom of expression, and freedom of the reader. We even post
> stuff we, as editors, believe to be pure crap, simply because people
> are free to express themselves. Capitol thoughts! Now is it not true that the truth comes out eventually? The real truth, that is, on this perhaps dubiously sordid Novell-Microsoft business. |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2007 7:11 AM EDT |
>I don't think advertising Linux to the home user would hurt Novell at all. It does cost money, energy and attention, but, probably not. But...Who cares? It's Novell's job to mind Novell's business. Red Hat could just as easily do some desktop marketing. Certainly Dell or IBM. Makes no never mind to me. Sure, I'd love to see it, but...I'm not going to lose sleep or point fingers. |
| Libervis Jun 01, 2007 8:09 AM EDT |
First I read the post on Lobby4Linux and wholeheartedly agreed. Then I've read the post at nixternal and, guess what, I wholeheartedly agreed. Nixternal managed to make a winning argument for me here. But that puts me in an odd situation. I always agreed that GNU/Linux needs more marketing exposure and thought that anything would be good, but especially if big corporations like Novell start prominently advertising to the masses of ordinary people. But now I'm left scratching my head over whether that would really work, in addition to realizing that Novell (nor RedHat nor anyone else for that matter) might not even have it in their interest to spend money on such ad campaigns. And that brings me to square one. Grassroots campaigning indeed; concerted efforts by all of the existing GNU/Linux users converting the market which is inevitably consisted of their friends and relatives to GNU/Linux. I call it the "resident geek approach" or the "resident computer guy". First you convert all of them to GNU/Linux and then they, like some sort of a local software vendo, convert the rest of non-geeks. Mind you converting doesn't necessarily have to happen offline and locally only, but over the internet "neighborhoods" too. So.. where is this whole GNU/Linux marketing thing ending up at now? Well it seems to have only one valid purpose: brand recognition, as mentioned already, but apparently even here the best and perhaps the only ones who we should count on doing this is.. well.. us, not corporations. So the best mentality we in the community can have about both spreading GNU/Linux and awareness about it is: "Don't wait on somebody else to do it, just do it!" Tux500 was one of the "just do it" attempts. We should have more and in various other diverse ways. There can even be a multitude of various campaigns, initiatives, projects at the same time. |
| nixternal Jun 01, 2007 8:11 AM EDT |
I apologize for saying that it shouldn't be posted. It should be posted, but something this inaccurate doesn't belong. It produces FUD on our end or inadvertantly inform readers who may not know the real truth, in which they start creating FUD. I will admit that Ken is a good writer, I just realized who Ken was :) I hope he doesn't take this as a personal attack, if so I apologize. I also apologize for including the community by saying "us". |
| helios Jun 01, 2007 8:11 AM EDT |
Looks like I might have touched a nerve. Good I meant to. It's a sad thing when a community as a whole is so difficult to mobilize. We are so spread out, and without a central communications device that doing so has proven next to impossible. And there is a grass roots effort happening to do just what I suggest. http://www.thetuxproject.com While it is still in the infant stages, it may prove to be just the thing we need. It would appear that this initial criticism was born more from a defense mechanism than any real substance. "This entire post was created from imagination, it had no real testament nor did it contain anything accurate." That is a statement obviously made in defensive posture. Remember, I offer opinion, food for thought. the remark concerning Novell's bottom line comes straight from their own people...you know, the ones that quit? The Motley Fool offers some clear information on the ups and downs of Novell's profits. While Novell is touting a "winning quarter", Wall street is saying something quite different. Now, if you don't like my "crud" don't read it. I never said Novell had any responsibility toward marketing Linux, I said it could possibly put them back in the good graces of the community. Big difference there. You saw what you wanted to see in that. The words are concise and clear. However, you are incorrect on another point: The products that Novell creates is not for “Real America” it is for “Enterprise America.” Enterprise America already knows what is available and don’t need the commercials to push it during primetime anymore. That is why you don’t see the IBM and Linux commercials anymore, who was watching them was “Real America” and “Real America” did a huge “WTF?” These were lousy attempts at marketing Linux to the general population. It seems that you have a track record of not really wanting Linux marketed to Joe User anyway so I don't look for any support from you on this. I do however expect an honest reporting of the fact. I deal in opinion and I will use facts when they suit my need. You can raise all the money you want in support of projects. Good idea. Plenty of domain names available for your effort, just let me know what they are and I will promote them with vigor. Unfortunately, we have spent 10 years swapping disks, building linux robots and coming up with geek-impressive acronyms for the projects we do form. This has absolutely no affect on the fact that the majority of the world is trapped in a buggy, expensive and proprietary operating system. I am going to ask a general question here and I would like to hear an answer. Why should anyone be forced to purchase and use software designed to make the software they've already purchased to work as designed? to make it worse, MS has gotten into the business of selling software to fix the software THEY have already sold you. To deny the attempt to market Linux to the general public is not only selfish, I would argue that it's morally reprehensible. Novell has an opportunity here to fix that and at the same time help itself. No, they have no obligation to do so. Neither does Red Hat, Xandros or Linspire. Let me know when you see a television commerical for any of them devoted to the spread of Linux, either here in the US or otherwise. I simply use the US as a base for talking about what I know. I can see anywhere from one to six a day touting MS code. |
| SFN Jun 01, 2007 8:28 AM EDT |
Quoting:A single TV ad would give Linux name recognition.Haven't we already had that? The IBM ads with the kid named Linux? It ran quite a bit for a period. |
| Libervis Jun 01, 2007 8:34 AM EDT |
Hmm it seems I missed the news about TheTuxProject.com. I presume that this project is what we were discussing earlier, about a central GNU/Linux marketing organization? I wanted to get involved. :) Cheers. |
| bigg Jun 01, 2007 8:39 AM EDT |
I've heard about the ad, but only here. I never saw the ad on TV. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were not selling Linux as a Windows alternative for non-technical home users. The only thing the average Joe could get from that commercial is that IBM sells something called Linux. |
| dcparris Jun 01, 2007 8:43 AM EDT |
TuxProject needs to get to promoting itself as well. A good press release about the project would be a great start. Additionally, announcements about some of the initiatives at appropriate intervals is necessary to generate more publicity. |
| SFN Jun 01, 2007 11:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:The only thing the average Joe could get from that commercial is that IBM sells something called Linux. I suppose that is correct. I never really thought about it. |
| number6x Jun 01, 2007 11:24 AM EDT |
The IBM linux ads are all on youtube, if you care to search. IBM ran them (or at least IBM's marketing company) during the Sunday morning network news talk shows. Thats when you see the Boeing ads and the Archer Daniels Midland ads. Ads aimed at people who run companies. Its supposed to be the only time CEOs and such turn the TV on. I think all the real CEO's are playing golf by 9:00 am on Sunday. Most of them really watch desperate housewives and old Benny Hill re-runs. They just won't admit it. :) The only guy I know who was a CEO of a major corp doesn't have a tv. He has a nice yacht though. |
| SFN Jun 01, 2007 11:45 AM EDT |
Quoting:IBM ran them (or at least IBM's marketing company) during the Sunday morning network news talk shows. And during the Super Bowl, The Oscars and a number of other high-profile/dollar slots. |
| tuxchick Jun 01, 2007 11:58 AM EDT |
TuxProject.com, the Secret Linux Marketing group? er.... |
| dcparris Jun 01, 2007 12:53 PM EDT |
Yeah, you would only know if you read the thread that broke the news. |
| rijelkentaurus Jun 01, 2007 2:48 PM EDT |
Quoting: To deny the attempt to market Linux to the general public is not only selfish, I would argue that it's morally reprehensible... No, they have no obligation to do so. Neither does Red Hat, Xandros or Linspire. I think they do have the obligation and are morally bound...not that it means they'll actually do anything about it. And the "selling software to fix software" is like paying the mob to protect you from its own soldiers. Not only is it disgusting and morally wrong, it doesn't work because nobody has any real incentive to leave you alone. If you buy the software from MS, and then buy the software to fix the software from MS, why would they ever fix the software itself in the first place? Too much money...and if you're stupid enough to fall for it.... |
| kozmcrae Jun 01, 2007 2:54 PM EDT |
>TuxProject.com, the Secret Linux Marketing group? er.... Yes, there's a secret handshake. Don't you know it? |
| kozmcrae Jun 01, 2007 3:03 PM EDT |
@Don:
"TuxProject needs to get to promoting itself as well. A good press release about the project would be a great start." Yes, I plan send anyone there who I encounter on a forum filling my browser's window with grand ideas about how to spend the money somebody else raised for a Linux project. |
| jdixon Jun 01, 2007 5:34 PM EDT |
> While Novell is touting a "winning quarter", Wall street is saying something quite different. Sorry Ken, not true. After the announcement of earnings Wednesday night, Novell was up over 6% yesterday and almost another 3% today. Now, long term may be another matter entirely, but the initial reaction seems to be very favorable. |
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