a good response

Story: Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy"Total Replies: 32
Author Content
tuxchick

Mar 18, 2010
11:11 PM EDT
I thought this was a good response and an insightful analysis: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/232

Quoting: I admit, that sometimes the authority of expertise is a legitimate authority. This is why Linus writes my kernels rather than Bob down the street... or why if I get a tumor the size of grapefruit growing out of my head, I will see a neurologist...rather than Bob down the street.

What sticks in my craw, is what exactly defines who is an expert on an aesthetic issue like button placement? Is this a realm where a kernel hacker has much more authority than Joe User and their Ma and Pa?

...

I think the idea that democracy and meritocracy are mutually exclusive to any degree is an incorrect one... If anything, they are mutually beneficial.

If they weren't, you wouldn't be using Debian as a base, or the Linux kernel as a core.

Again this goes to my critique of the authority principal, that somewhere, some guy, some team, knows what is best, and everyone else needs to follow.

This idea is demonstrably false by the fact that we have a thriving open movement to begin with. Where decisions have been made cooperatively, rather than handed down from above.

If the "best" way was subservients reporting to bosses who call the shots, Linux would be a complete failure, and it isn't.


There is more, I thought he made some good points.
tracyanne

Mar 19, 2010
12:37 AM EDT
I'd also like to know what Mark Shuttleworth thinks needs to go where the buttons currently are.
cabreh

Mar 19, 2010
3:29 AM EDT
I don't get the big problem so many people have with simply moving a colon from the end of a line in gconf-editor to the beginning of the line.

Isn't the ability to customize Linux one of the things we always point to as a good thing?
jimbauwens

Mar 19, 2010
5:41 AM EDT
I know its really easy to change the buttons to the left or the right, but why not add a option in the Appearance window, or even ask on what side you want it when you install it?
Sander_Marechal

Mar 19, 2010
5:51 AM EDT
Quoting:or even ask on what side you want it when you install it?


Oh, please no. Don't bug me with annoying questions during install. The fewer questions, the better.
tracyanne

Mar 19, 2010
6:03 AM EDT
Also Shuttleworth wants to put something inplace of the current buttons. Remember that.
jacog

Mar 19, 2010
6:17 AM EDT
I like how the KDE 4.4 uses the title bar space for the window-grouping tabs. Mayyybe the Bunties have a similar plan for their WM?
bigg

Mar 19, 2010
6:40 AM EDT
> simply moving a colon from the end of a line in gconf-editor to the beginning of the line

gconf-editor should be dead. It's an ugly, idiotic way to set options. If you want a gui, then make a real darn gui. If you are selling yourself as a newbie distro, "change it in gconf-editor" is the wrong answer.
r_a_trip

Mar 19, 2010
8:33 AM EDT
I'd also like to know what Mark Shuttleworth thinks needs to go where the buttons currently are.

Hear, hear!

I think this whole debacle could have been stopped dead in its tracks if we were told what they want to put on the right first, before moving the buttons to the left.

I'm willing to do away with twenty years motor memory if there is a significant reason to do so. A vague "we want to experiment around with the right hand corner" just doesn't cut it in this case.

Mr. Shuttleworth's "Jobsian" "you get to comment, but we decide" certainly doesn't cut it. If it did, I wouldn't have left Microsoft in the first place or I'd have switched to Apple.

What ever goes on the right, I want to know about it first. If it is a useful addition, I'm willing to accept my buttons on the left. If it is a picture of Mark Shuttleworth kissing a monkey, I also want to know it, so I can drop Ubuntu and switch to something more sane.

I'm not willing to just wait 6 months and battle with left placed buttons, to see what materialises in Ubuntu 10.10.

As a sidenote to all the "you can change it" remarks. Yes, Linux distro's are extremely customizable, but... I'm not willing to remodel Ubuntu extensively after a fresh installation. Sane defaults will do. There is a reason I'm not running Linux From Scratch.
Bob_Robertson

Mar 19, 2010
8:49 AM EDT
> This is why Linus writes my kernels rather than Bob down the street... or why if I get a tumor the size of grapefruit growing out of my head, I will see a neurologist...rather than Bob down the street.

Hey!

I don't need some Tom, Dick or Harry telling me he doesn't need me!

...or Mark.
bigg

Mar 19, 2010
9:09 AM EDT
> If it is a picture of Mark Shuttleworth kissing a monkey, I also want to know it, so I can drop Ubuntu and switch to something more sane.

Then you better move to something else right now. What originally turned me off to Ubuntu (the first distro that I actually worked as a replacement for Windows) was the debate about whether proprietary video drivers would be installed by default. We had the same "this is not a democracy" thing at that time. I really learned to appreciate the importance of choice at that time. I had a video card that didn't work properly with the proprietary driver, so Ubuntu would essentially have been useless. Yet Mark S. made it clear that he would do what he wanted to do.

Shortly after that, I started playing with Debian, and it was good.
cabreh

Mar 19, 2010
9:16 AM EDT
@r_a_trip

>As a sidenote to all the "you can change it" remarks. Yes, Linux distro's are extremely customizable, but... I'm not willing to remodel Ubuntu extensively after a fresh installation. Sane defaults will do. There is a reason I'm not running Linux From Scratch.

So, you'll leave it on the left I guess. I personally prefer the right. And gconf-editor isn't as hard to use as Windows regedit or vi/emacs of a config file. So, I'll continue to modify to the way I like things.

jdixon

Mar 19, 2010
9:36 AM EDT
> And gconf-editor isn't as hard to use as Windows regedit or vi/emacs of a config file. So, I'll continue to modify to the way I like things.

I see precious little difference between them myself, but YMMV.
KernelShepard

Mar 19, 2010
9:56 AM EDT
I person ally don't care for the window buttons being on the left, either. But, I agree that a meritocracy is a better way to run a distro than a democracy. Remember folks, Ubuntu is Mark Shuttleworth's distro (in so far as he created it and is paying for it out of his pocket); he's scratching his own itches, if they conflict with your itches, then you'll just have to suck it up and either switch to a distro that is scratching your itches or create your own distro where you are King and make all the final decisions.

Mark Shuttleworth/Canonical will have to face any/all consequences of their decisions (they need to keep any paying customers they have happy and also keep their contributors happy) and as much as some of us like to think we know better, I'd argue that they are in a much better position to judge than any of us.

As Mark Shuttleworth said, if you don't like their decisions on something, then you need to get involved. Crying about it won't change anything.
cabreh

Mar 19, 2010
9:57 AM EDT
I guess I never learned to read long names made up of curly random letters and number between curly braces. On the other hand, if you have a good gui application that makes it possible to configure Gnome fully I'm willing to try it out.

r_a_trip

Mar 19, 2010
11:26 AM EDT
@bigg: Then you better move to something else right now.

I have already seriously toyed with that idea and even had a bout of hopping around. I love what Ubuntu is doing right, but they also have a lot that is not right in my eyes. Mono, the Yahoo/Bing thing, tying Ubuntu evermore to Ubuntu cloud services. Now that "We claim the right window space and we won't tell you what for, but you better live with it, because we ain't gonna change it back." thing.

The problem is that "moving house" is a nuissance and I'm lazy.

@Cabreh: So, you'll leave it on the left I guess.

For now on my test installation, but when I'm going to leave something... it might very well be Ubuntu. If they don't start telling what they want the right corner for real soon, Lucid Lynx will mark the end of my buntu experience.

The point is not that changing a detail is hard or insurmountable. The point is that I preferably don't have to change too much. where does the list of "easily" changeble items end? I won't go back to Windows style installation. Spend an hour to install the OS and then spend a week setting config options until the thing works as I want. It is easier to just switch to something that has that out of the box.

@KernelSheppard: As Mark Shuttleworth said, if you don't like their decisions on something, then you need to get involved.

What more can a non-paying end-user do than make their dislike heard? I'm being fairly quiet about this and I'm not going to get involved above stating my dislike. I don't have ambitions to join Canonical (paid or unpaid), I'm very happy where I currently work. I can make my position clear and I am already considering scratching my itch. Mark can do what he wants with his plaything, he'll just have to do it without me and my support for his OS.

Crying about it won't change anything.

No, that is for sure. Mark S. made it perfectly clear that Ubuntu is Canonical's corporate distro. I have no problems with a corporately run distro, but please, don't waive about community, open, merrit and more of that feel good blah blah. Sooner or later, your colors will show.
DiBosco

Mar 19, 2010
12:14 PM EDT
All this fuss over a couple of buttons being moved? Get over yourselves! ;~)
gus3

Mar 19, 2010
1:30 PM EDT
@DiBosco:

It isn't just a matter of a couple buttons being moved. It's the fact that Mr. Shuttleworth himself put a BIG HONKING QUESTION MARK over the reason why.

Oh, wait, there's a smiley there. Never mind.
bigg

Mar 19, 2010
9:32 PM EDT
Interesting. I just went to the Ubuntu website. It says "If you want to help us test it, download beta 1 now. We appreciate your feedback and support"

This is an appropriate time for an extension of the middle finger. If Mark is so smart, he can do it himself. Why would I waste my time improving his for profit OS? He's like a dog biting the hand that feeds him.
cabreh

Mar 20, 2010
7:15 AM EDT
Umm. Isn't feedback something like voting? If you don't do those things, should you really complain about the interface/who got elected?

I think the main reason for the buttons originally being placed on the right as opposed to the left has never been mentioned. Most people seem to assume it was just to copy Windows. However it is much more likely the originators realized that the close button would be too close to the menu items leading to people closing an application when they meant to open a menu.

This is why I will move mine. I'm getting older now, eyes fading, maybe hands shaking before many years, so I don't want them on the left.

tracyanne

Mar 20, 2010
8:53 AM EDT
I've just set up 10.04 in a VM, the new buttons on the left looks rather ugly, somewhat like a bad copy of a Mac window. Unfortunately the VBox additions, don't seem to work, so I can't increase the sceen size to anything useful, so I can't do much with it.
tmx

Mar 20, 2010
6:39 PM EDT
How come it doesn't work? Maybe it doesn't support latest Ubuntu 10 yet? Did you "Enable 3D Acceleration" and mount the additions disc and run "VBoxLinuxAdditions.run" as root?

I think its pretty simple to solve this whole debacle. They should just pop up a dialog after user log in for the first time and ask "Do you want to customize your desktop now?" Then show a GUI interface that they can enable desktop icons, change buttons positions, back ground, theme, etc. Just add the option to the current Appearance Preferences.
tracyanne

Mar 20, 2010
6:51 PM EDT
Quoting:Maybe it doesn't support latest Ubuntu 10 yet? Did you "Enable 3D Acceleration" and mount the additions disc and run "VBoxLinuxAdditions.run" as root?


I did indeed. I do a lot of set ups in Virtualbox, so no I didn't fail to do that. I suspect it doesn't support the new kernel. which is strange as the kernel modules are built against the installed kernel.

Quoting:They should just pop up a dialog after user log in for the first time and ask "Do you want to customize your desktop now?" Then show a GUI interface that they can enable desktop icons, change buttons positions, back ground, theme, etc. Just add the option to the current Appearance Preferences.


Shuttlworth has plans for the empty space that is created by moving the buttons to the left, and I suspect it has little to nothing to do with allowing you me or Aunt Hilda to put those buttons back there.
tracyanne

Mar 20, 2010
7:06 PM EDT
At the moment, putting the buttons back to the left hand corner is as simple as changingthe button-layout value, as described elsewhwere on LXer from maximize,minimize,close: to :minimize,maximize,close.

Being able to do that easily may change by the time 1.04 is released, or in future releases if Shuttleworth has his way.

Since he hasn't said what sort of things he would like to replace the current buttons with, it's hard to judge the value of the change to users of Ubuntu. At the moment it seems quite arbitrary, and little more than a way to make Ubuntu appear like a cheap copy of OSX.
Steven_Rosenber

Mar 20, 2010
11:24 PM EDT
Ubuntu's No. 1 problem is that if it builds for the fanboy, he is happy; but if it doesn't build for the Windows/Mac user, they'll never even consider making the switch. Can one system satisfy both?
tracyanne

Mar 21, 2010
2:28 AM EDT
Interestingly the Netbook remix version works fine with VirtualBox's Additions.

I can get it display a nice 1360 by 768 screen, a screen size popular on the 11 in netbooks.
tmx

Mar 21, 2010
4:02 AM EDT
Quoting:Ubuntu's No. 1 problem is that if it builds for the fanboy, he is happy; but if it doesn't build for the Windows/Mac user, they'll never even consider making the switch. Can one system satisfy both?
Create a separate Fanboy Edition?

Sorry, its getting a bit late here.
KernelShepard

Mar 21, 2010
9:55 AM EDT
Steven: while I agree with your overall logic, this particular example doesn't really fit. The changes being made in this example make the UI more akin to MacOSX, not Windows, so I don't think you can really argue that it's tailoring the UI to attract Windows users.

I'd also argue that MacOSX has a fairly small user-base (and they are generally in love with Apple for being Apple, so are less likely to switch) and so making a UI more like MacOSX in an effort to attract Mac users is a waste of time and effort.

That said, of course, changing the UI to look more like Mac because it has some real benefit to usability is a different story.

I don't know what inspired this particular change to the Ubuntu UI, but I hope it wasn't "to attract Mac users" or "because the Mac UI is perfect and thus we should blindly copy it".

Canonical hired a number of UI designers ~9 months or more ago who have been working on the Papercuts thing (which I had started out reading over, but can't be bothered to these days) and they seemed to be making a lot of good changes. For now, I'm inclined to trust that they know what they are doing and that this decision wasn't made just to copy MacOSX.

Anyone else remember when GNOME changed the OK/Cancel button ordering? Just as is happening in this case, a number of people screamed very loudly, but in the end, everyone was able to get on with their lives and GNOME wasn't hurt at all by that decision.
Steven_Rosenber

Mar 22, 2010
1:56 PM EDT
They want to get the Windows user who admires the Mac but a) can't or won't buy Apple hardware and software.

And you look at the "high-end" hardware market, $1,000+, and it's all Apple. That's another reason why Shuttleworth is focusing on the Mac look and feel.

For the most part, people don't use Windows because they hate Mac. But they sure do use Mac because they hate Windows.
techiem2

Mar 22, 2010
2:01 PM EDT
And some of us just laugh at all of them and use whatever distro/de/wm suits our fancy at the moment. :)

I personally have never found the Mac interface all that great at the times I've messed with one. Maybe I'm just not artsy enough for it. :P
Steven_Rosenber

Mar 22, 2010
4:44 PM EDT
The one thing that Mac and Windows do that Linux distributions CAN do with a bit of work on the users part (but usually don't) is offer continually updated applications on a stable base.

Whether this is the best-case scenario or not, I really do think it's what users want and expect.

Sure it opens a case full of cans o' worms, and that's probably why most Linux distributions and BSD projects don't offer and encourage such an approach.

I'm not sure I completely understand PPAs in Ubuntu, but it looks like that's a way around being stuck with a single version of an app for an entire release cycle.

It's probably as much or more of a security nightmare as .exe files and whatever packaging system Mac uses, so for that reason I'm not personally too crazy about it.

Of course if you run Debian Sid, Slackware-current, Arch, or the -current or development branches of any number of projects, you get new apps on a rolling basis.

I guess the question I'd like to throw out to the group is this:

Is the notion of a stable release, with unchanging packages during the cycle, desirable for the server but not the desktop?
Bob_Robertson

Mar 22, 2010
5:46 PM EDT
> Is the notion of a stable release, with unchanging packages during the cycle, desirable for the server but not the desktop?

I would say that it is imperative for the server.

I would go so far as to say that once you have a functional and complete "server", never update it at all other than obvious security issues.

When something the server is doing reaches the point, in 5 or 6 years, when it simply MUST be upgraded/updated, then build a new one.

For the "desktop", it's completely up to the individual preference. I like Unstable. Or at least I did, and I will again.
tmx

Mar 26, 2010
4:24 AM EDT
Quoting:Interestingly the Netbook remix version works fine with VirtualBox's Additions.

I can get it display a nice 1360 by 768 screen, a screen size popular on the 11 in netbooks.
Virtualbox version 3.1.6 is out which should support 10.04 now.

Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]

Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!