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Interview With The Open Graphics Project's Timothy Miller

Posted by Scott_Ruecker on Aug 18, 2006 6:11 AM · 39 comments
LXer.com; By Scott Ruecker (Phoenix, USA)

LXer Feature: 17-Aug-2006

An interview with the Project Lead and Creator of the Open Graphics Project, Timothy Miller.

Timothy Miller is the founder of the Open Graphics Project. He has a Bachelor's degree in Computer Engineering and has worked since 1996 as a software engineer, developing application software and graphics drivers. In 1999, he started learning chip design on the job because the kinds of graphics chips that his employer needed couldn't be bought from 3rd parties anymore. He has been designing graphics chips and graphics-related chips ever since. He is currently working on a Ph.D. in Computer Science, specializing on Artificial Intelligence.



When was the Open Graphics Project started, and who's idea was was it?



I guess you might say that the OGP was started in October of 2004 when I made my first post to the Linux Kernel Mailing List about the general idea. I'd had the idea in my head for a while before that, but only then did I get permission from management to start it as a company project. Since then, the project has amicably separated from the company where it started.



How many people were working on it in the beginning?



At the beginning, the OGP was only me, but many people in the open source community became very active in the project. I and two other hardware engineers have created a company, Traversal Technology, to handle the business and hardware fabrication aspects of the OGP.



How has it grown since then?



The OGP grew rapidly after I first started it, and it's continued to grow gradually since then. Now, we have Traversal Technology and also the Open Hardware Foundation that's dedicated to the non-profit, community, and democratic aspects of the project. Our mailing list has over 500 members, including well-known Linux kernel hackers, 3D graphics experts, college professors, representatives of many other open source projects, hardware designers, and people who want to become hardware designers.



Is the design complete?



The first product of the OGP, the OGD1 board Open Graphics Development 1, (http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=OGD1), should have prototypes available in September. Those aren't ones we can sell; they're for debugging, but we can show them. The OGD1 board is an FPGA-based development platform. We'll use it to develop a graphics chip, but it's a product in its own right, many people will buy it to develop their own hardware.



Is there a Market for it?



I'm not sure exactly how large that market is, but we seem to be creating a movement. Individuals and businesses interested in open hardware are coming to me all the time, asking about it. On a regular basis, we get a new person joining our mailing list asking about chip design and reading the Verilog (the hardware description language we use) lessons on our Wiki (http://www.opengraphics.org). That movement may create its own market. There is also a pre-existing market for FPGA-based prototyping boards. In that market, we're priced dirt-cheap compared to comparable alternatives, so we should sell quite well there as well.



Can the OGP and OHF sustain themselves?



Traversal Technology should be able to sustain itself... it's all a matter of making enough profit from our products. We don't know if OGD1 will do it, but if we can produce a graphics ASIC (Application Specific Integrated Circuit, a fixed-function device), we can sell that into the so-called "high-end embedded" market (single-board computers, kiosks, etc.) and be very successful. The OHF will have to sustain itself on donations (some of which will come from Traversal).



How have you adapted to the constant changes in graphics technology?



Graphics technology has changed and it hasn't. Today, you don't find many new GPUs that don't have programmable shaders. But you mostly only benefit from programmable shaders when playing high-end games. We're absolutely not after the gamers. We're after the desktop, where many common 3D features are overkill.



We're "keeping up" by not having yet fully designed a graphics chip, although we do have a detailed spec and software model for one (http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=OpengraphicsSim...). We've focused on the development platform, OGD1, and using future revenue from that to pay for development and fabrication of an ASIC. When it comes time to design the graphics chip, we'll review our past design decisions and make sure that our design will be adequate in features and performance.



How will be priced and manufactured?



Right now, the only thing we are concerned about pricing is OGD1. We have some ideas for the ASIC, but we'll have to reevaluate our markets when we are ready. OGD1 is being priced based on competing products and by how much revenue we think we need to make to fund further development. For some people, OGD1 is a prototyping board. For others, it's a development platform for Open Graphics. For some of us, it's a fund-raiser. Fabricating ASICs is very expensive, and we need millions of dollars to do it. OGD1 boards will be sold in the $600-$700 range to OGP contributors, with subsidies from OHF donations for the needy. On the open market, it'll be sold for at least $1000 for single-unit retail, with bulk discounts.



What still needs to be done?



At the moment, we are finishing up the artwork for the OGD1 PCB (Printed Circuit Board), and we're about ready to get PCB's made. We also have to finish some basic bits of logic for end-users (controller logic for video, memory, PCI, etc.).



What do you want to accomplish, or what is the ultimate goal for you?



Originally, the ultimate goal was to develop graphics hardware that was friendly to Free Software. Full documentation and whatever else people need to know to write open source drivers. That has shifted to become the PRIMARY goal, with the long-term goal to be open source hardware in general.



What are your thoughts on the impact the libre license will have on competition?



It's hard to say what will happen with the libre license. We'll be openly publishing the "source code" to our hardware. That means that anyone who wants to conform to the license (GPL ultimately) can copy our design. If we're undercut on price, and we're put out of business, then there will be no future designs from us. One defense we have against that isto start with an open source hardware license that is NOT the GPL. This license would allow viewing and modification but not mass-production by others. Once we've paid for the ASIC development, we can convert the license to the GPL.



Other defenses we have are trademarks and official stamps that say things like "genuine Open Graphics hardware" or some such, which you can only get if you are a member of the project and contributing to its growth.



So what's next?, What will we see coming from the OGP?



What's next is the unveiling of OGD1, hopefully in September. Then, we'll have something to show at trade shows and online. Soon after, we'll start taking orders. How many orders we get will determine subsequent courses of action. Another way people can help is to help us market OGD1. We also have other sorts of open source hardware ideas, but for the moment, we need to focus on immediate practical issues.





What about future technology and its impact the Open Source Graphics Project?



In the 90's, 3D was fixed-function. Today, it's programmable shaders (which the OGP will get around to doing when it's practical). Tomorrow... probably real-time ray tracing. Fortunately, we know something about that too. If the OGP takes off enough to become a self-sustaining force, who knows what we can develop. I'm sure open source ray tracer hardware will be something to be reckoned with.



How can people help?



Two ways. One is to join the project and help us develop and debug the things we're working on. The other is to donate money to the OHF (Open Hardware Foundation) so as to help developers acquire hardware they'll need to help with some of the work.



From an idea in Tim's head to an Open Graphics Project, much has been done to Tim's credit, but there is more to do. Having the OGP ensures that we will have an Open Source option for the graphics hardware and software in our computers. If your interested in Open Source Graphics then go to the OGP page and sign up like I did. Get information, see what's going on and find out if its something your interested in. An Open Source Graphics Card? That's pretty cool, don't you think?

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Comments (39)

more than they can chew

A good interview Scott. I know we've discussed this project before. The Engineers and engineering involved are quite impressive. We'd all like to see them succeed, but, I keep wondering if they've bitten off more than they can chew.

As your interview points out, actual production is going to run in the millions, and a million $ is still quite a figure, even in these inflated times. I despair that a viable retail product from the project will ever see the light of day.
How hard is it to get millions of dollars? That depends. Perhaps OGD1 is unlikely to sell enough units in a short period of time to fund the ASIC development. But even a moderately-well selling product will attract a lot of attention. It's not sales that they need then--it's business partners who themselves have millions of dollars. The OGP may not have a chip yet, but they have graphics expertise and the ability to develop graphics technology. That in and of itself is valuable. Worst case, they'll need to develop other sorts of products for a while, products that would typically retail for enough to warrant shipping a final product that is FPGA-based. Eventually, the products and total revenue would add up to the point where they could afford to produce ASICs.

You only bite off more than you can chew when you have absolutely no idea how much to bite off. :)
> You only bite off more than you can chew when you have absolutely no idea how much to bite off. :)

I doubt they do.

Those millions are dependant on investors. Know anyone with a few mil, who want to invest in a Linux (only) board. I say 'only' beause that's what the market will see it as.
Actually, the primary market for the TRV10 ASIC is the "high-end embedded" space. This includes single-board computers and fixed installations like mall kiosks. That is what investors will see. In this space, the TRV10 will have superior performance, lower cost, and the only free and well-documented development kit. A number of people interested in this, who have dealt with embedded graphics processors before, have mentioned that it can be a nightmare getting some vendors' chips to work. In addition to paying for each chip, you pay a bundle for their documentation and have to sign an NDA. The documentation tends to be very poor, and when you run into a problem, the vendors are often unable or unwilling to help. By contrast, the TRV10 dev kit is free, and it's supported by an active community of people who want it to succeed, so they want to help.

You should give the people working on this some sort of credit for having thought of these problems and identified solutions, rather than assuming they're idiots who can't possibly succeed... just because you think it can't. Somehow, the OGD1 designers have managed to design and build hardware with absolutely no funding, doing it in their free time. If they're so foolish, how do you explain this?

Also, most Linux users I've met have a strong "can do" spirit. They believe that GNU/Linux is the greatest thing, their Free Software philosophy is the right thing, and they will ultimately prevail against the evils of proprietary software. With enough people behind it, the OGP will succeed by sheer force of will. With the top graphics vendors refusing to release documentation so we can write open source drivers, the OGP is, to many, the only way to take back control of their computers. You might benefit from adopting that philosophy.
>With enough people behind it, the OGP will succeed by sheer force of will.

Sheer force of will doesn't pay for anything.

Back to reality --

For engineers, engineering is the easy part, even when it's hard.

Raising money ain't that easy.
> You should give the people working on this some sort of credit for having thought of these problems and identified solutions, rather than assuming they're idiots who can't possibly succeed... just because you think it can't. Somehow, the OGD1 designers have managed to design and build hardware with absolutely no funding, doing it in their free time.

Now you're way off base theosib. As I said, I admire these guys very much as engineers. I'm just concerned about the production end of it all.

You really should read more carefully before you spout off.
You're right. Force of will alone doesn't pay for anything. But it is the motivating force behind doing the hard work required to conduct business. In order to succeed, you need contacts, potential buyers, resellers, advertizing, business partners, and a whole spectrum of other things. And you get these things by finding the people who DO have money and convincing them that your ideas can make them MORE money. Trust me, the people with the OGP have no shortage of outside corporate interest.

Oh, and you also spend a lot of money out of your own pocket, generally making your family very nervous.

Raising money is a huge pain in the ass. It takes more work than you can possibly imagine if you haven't done it before. It's something you have to be on top of every day, never missing an opportunity. Seemingly inconsequential emails can turn into huge opportunities, but you have to carefully consider them all. Never lose a phone number. When you are introduced to someone at an interested company, you have to work with them to work your way up the ladder to the right people. Never miss a media opportunity. For those who would buy your product, don't let them forget you. Oh, and one of the most effective things to do is delegate some of this to other people who believe in your cause. You won't believe who you'll eventually get to meet. If you're friendly, dedicated, focused, capable, and ethical, you'll get nothing but positive response.

Keep trying. Perhaps eventually, you'll come up with an argument they haven't thought of, and your efforts will turn into a valuable contribution.
> Now you're way off base theosib. As I said, I admire these guys very much as engineers. I'm just concerned about the production end of it all.

> You really should read more carefully before you spout off.

I apologize if I came across poorly, but you seem to be missing what I'm responding to. It's not your lack of concern or lack of understanding. I just don't see this as an appropriate forum for voicing those concerns. The Open Graphics Mailing List is. If you have a valid concern to raise, raise it with the people who need to fix it!

The OGP is moving forward quite steadily. The founders and volunteers have hashed and rehashed all of the problems you bring up. They know what they're up against, and they're doing everything they can to make it happen. Within the next couple of months, they'll have a product ready for sale, proving that they can accomplish something tangible.

People who don't know about the OGP will read this article. Then they'll read the comments. And they'll read your comment. There are some who will think you speak with authority, and your comment implies that you know they haven't worked through certain very basic problems. You are concerned. Well, thank you. OGP developers are MUCH more concerned than you are.

If you think the OGP is important and you feel you have something to contribute, bad-mouthing them on a news forum is not going to help anyone. Readers of this forum are not stupid, but if the first thing they see are negative comments (and the positive ones require more effort to find), what do you think is going to be their first impression? Are you TRYING to cause trouble? Me, I'm just trying to do damage control (and I admit that I'm probably doing it very poorly).

I think the reason I'm making a big deal out of this is that I'm personally offended, very deeply. You've said things that can do nothing but cause harm. And you seem to feel justified in that. I don't get it.
theosib:

A simple 'we are in the successful process of procuring investment capital' would have answered the whole thing... Keep it in house if you prefer. On the other hand, It might be wise to just give press releases rather than interviews if you don't want the project discussed publicly.

Anyway, I'm out of it... Good luck in your endeavor.
>I think the reason I'm making a big deal out of this is that I'm personally offended, very deeply. You've said things that can do nothing but cause harm. And you seem to feel justified in that. I don't get it.

It's called discourse. Discourse requires being able to express yourself civilly, but freely.

I saw nothing offensive in jimf's posts. He expressed pessimism that the project will lead to an actual consumer product. That's called expressing an opinion.

This happens to be a forum, and fora are places where people express opinions, so I guess he actually IS justified in the civil expression of his opinion.

Lighten up.

Ok. Fair enough. You've made your points. I've made mine, and I think by now, I've taken more than my fair share of attention away from other people's opinions. Sorry about all the fuss.

BTW, I would LOVE to say, "we are in the successful process of procuring investment capital," but often times, those who invest require non-disclosure.
theo --

Well, I hope you (they, whoever) get it. It's important that we don't overplay the difficulty. People laying out big money have big questions and make big demands, but it gets done every day.

Make a compelling case that they can make a profit that justifies the risk, and someboy will pony up the dough.
jimf: As your interview points out, actual production is going to run in the millions, and a million $ is still quite a figure, even in these inflated times. I despair that a viable retail product from the project will ever see the light of day.

Don't despair goodguy, there all kinds of ways to raise cash, all kinds. Its just a matter of having everything in place to take advantage of it. It looks like they have everything in place..exept the cash. :-)
> all kinds of ways to raise cash, all kinds

jimf/ sees Scott donning mask and checking his clip as he enters the bank :)
See..you do understand me..its not bad if you don't get caught. Right?

;-)

Are Open Source Graphics Important to You?

4 earlier comments in the full thread.

What is it about OS graphics that makes you want to program games?

Is the open architecture hardware that you write software for?

Or the Open Source software you work with? that makes this important to you?
Maybe this will help...

For the work I do with graphics, cad, and such, I need superior 2D graphics (all else is illusion). So instantaneous redraw, color, and absolute precision are optimal. Of course I want to see better hardware and drivers (preferably open). Eyecandy is fine, but, gaming is not something I'm very interested in... Understand, I'm not opposed to gaming, it's just not my thing.

Right now I'm still looking to the software apps development for the best immediate improvement for me.
Yes!,

See..OK How do I word the question then to get that answer out of people?
Probably a series of questions. I'm assuming that everyone would 'prefer' an open source solution :

Do you use a GUI desktop and how important is that to you?

How do you use graphics in Linux?

Is gaming important to you?

Is visual multimedia important to you?

-------- there are other questions that you could ask Scott, but, you get the drift.
Your so good to me...;-)
> What is it about OS graphics that makes you want to program games?

Nothing. I used to program games for Win32 as well, and MS-DOS before that. I just like making games as a hobby (I would not want to do it for a living). But given the choice I rather program for an open platform. Some day I'd really like to get back in high-end 3D. Having open hardware and open graphics software will probabely make that easier to do (stability and feature wise)

> Or the Open Source software you work with? that makes this important to you?

Also not really. I moved to Linux because I was tired of Windows' problems and began to appreciate Free software. I didn't switch because I could make better games on Linux or something.

> Do you use a GUI desktop and how important is that to you?

Yes and very. I am reasonably proficient with the CLI but I like doing things the easy way. Usually all that I want is read the web and my e-mail. GUIs make this easy.

> How do you use graphics in Linux?

Mostly GUI. I don't play a lot of games, I prefer programming them. Graphics and eye candy are still important to me though. The games that I am currently programming are relatively simple 2D games. I haven't made the jump to high-end 3D yet (I used to do 3D on Win32). That's a matter of chance though. Creating a game starts with a great idea for one. I had the idea for gnome-hearts before I had the idea for a simple, fun 3D game.

> Is gaming important to you?

As in playing commerial titles, no. I don't have time to play much games, most commercial titles suck and they're waaaay overpriced. The last games I played a lot was Diablo II and Darkstone back in my Windows days.

> Is visual multimedia important to you?

Yes. I like visual design (though I suck at creating it myself). I also like watching (short) video's on my PC. Never movies or anything. I have my TV for that.
What is it about OS graphics that makes you want to program games?

Or the Open Source software you work with? that makes this important to you?

Do you use a GUI desktop and how important is that to you?

How do you use graphics in Linux?

Is gaming important to you?

Is visual multimedia important to you?

Thank You sander.

and to finally answer perseis, Women are the most beautiful creatures in the universe. :-)
>OK guys, its a woman's mind and keen insight that first attracts you, right?

Absolutely...after all, you can't tell anything about her looks the first time you see her, right?
In the land of the blind....
Just making a statement, guys..calm down. :-)
Just yanking your chain Scott :D
Ho-humm...

Though I normally have little to nothing against proprietary software (as long as they don't have too overt screw-you clauses in the licence *cough* 'doze *cough*), there's something about the concept of a closed kernel module in a free operating system that irks me. If there was a company whose products rivalled ATI/Nvidia and which released it's drivers under a free software licence, my next machine's graphics card would come from that company.
Teron -

That's not a bad line to draw.

Userland programs seem different to me from closed OS drivers. I would rather use nVidia's driver than to have crippled video performance and actually am grateful that nVidia bothers to make a decent linux driver available. However, give me a good video alternative with free drivers and I'm there.
> Userland programs seem different to me from closed OS drivers. I would rather use nVidia's driver than to have crippled video performance and actually am grateful that nVidia bothers to make a decent linux driver available. However, give me a good video alternative with free drivers and I'm there.

That's about where I am, although I do without the non-libre drivers currently. I prefer libre drivers.
I have the last ATI card with a lot of memory that runs with a stock xorg driver. While it gives me pretty crappy open gl, the 2D performance is superb, so, I'm nicely supported in what I need to do. Multimedia runs just fine too, so overall, I'm not missing anything except bragging rights.

Considering that the proprietary driver from ATI has proven to have it's own install problems, I'm happy with the situation. By the time I have to shop for a new card, I'm hoping that I'll have a selection of FOSS choices.
> Do you use a GUI desktop and how important is that to you?

Naturally I use a GUI desktop - doesn't everyone? If a linux user claims not to be using a GUI, that indicates that he/she is using a GUI on some other OS for their day to day computing.

> How do you use graphics in Linux? multimedia, gaming, web - all the usual suspects.

> Is gaming important to you? It's not the most important thing, but it is fairly important, for the reason that, an OS which doesn't provide the oomph required for gaming, will lose out to one which does, all else being equal.

> Is visual multimedia important to you?

naturally - presenting visual multimedia is one of the most common tasks of computers today.
@Scott, somehow my reply to your questions ended up above your questions. I smell a forum bug here :-)
yeah, its a Scott Bug, don't worry though its not a critical one. :-)
I use a GUI because I like multiple windows of relatively small type. I also like a graphical web browser and WYSIWYG OpenOffice. I've been using the GUI for general work since Windows 2, MacOS7, and OLWM on Linux in 1995. I used the open nv driver on my present hardware (2003 vintage) until I found out that in order to run some games, I needed to use the closed nVidia driver.

So I re-set all the fonts, window sizes, things like that because the nVidia driver has a greater functionality, like reporting the actual dots per inch back to xorg instead of just defaulting to 75x75. The nv driver also only displays 16 bit colours, rather than the 24/32 that the nVidia driver does, and I like that very much. The "blue swirl" Debian kdm login background is a smooth colour gradient, rather than pixelated like a bad Japanese porn cartoon.

If nVidia were to open their driver, I would very much prefer to use it. At this point, I'm taking the pragmatic standpoint that while it is closed, it is also at least very standard. If I need to do debugging, I can switch back to the nv driver and run something other than KDE so that my settings don't get reset.

Maybe that's another of the Linux distribution vs. Windows attributes that is undervalued: I can choose my GUI, or no GUI, as I wish at any time, depending on the job at hand.

At this point, I used the nVidia driver because it fits my needs best. If it were a choice between that and an open driver that had the same functionality, I would switch to the open driver as fast as I could edit xorg.conf.

Is free software worth being inconvenienced? Yes. I've actually turned down contract work because their proprietary software wouldn't install under WINE and they had no Linux native version.
Yes, I use a GUI. (Though I usually have at least one console up too.)

Yes, I play games. Commercial games. 3D games, 2D games, lots of eye candy and also sparser stuff. New games, old games. Don't care much for consoles because they're too limited. Games are the primary reason I still use that Win thing at all when I'd rather be running a free OS. Games are what got me interested in programming in the first place. Gaming LAN parties taught me a lot about networking.

Yes, visual multimedia is important to me. I'd like to see better support Quicktime and Flash, but that's not as important as being able to create my own good quality stuff if I choose.

Yes, I run with proprietary binary driver blobs (nVidia). I feel much the same way about that as Teron above.

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