Cutting Through Multiple Linux Distribution Concerns
Cutting Through Multiple Linux Distribution Concerns by Dean Pannell and Paul Ferris, LXer.com contributoring editors.
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Comments (32)
ID Software
I forgot all about games. Games are one of those things that get real tight with the hardware and drivers.
They're all one of those things likely to appeal to someone persnickety enough to run Rowdy Chihuahua Linux or some such thing.
Bad combo for Id, I would say, and support for my position that I gave up too easily.
Developers and Users
"Corporate interests have helped to temper that in recent years by expressing the need, with dollars and people, for little things like usability, little things that end users might notice, but, in OSS-land, developers remain king. "
If OSS is developer-driven as opposed to user-driven, then the current monopoly-dominated closed-source market is vendor driven as opposed to customer driven.
OSS, especially open file formats that level the playing field on the desktop, wrenches that market loose from the grip single Monopolistic Software vendors hold.
We have had many years of single-vendor customer disservice. OSS is no guarantee of better service, but it seems to be the only way to force corporations to play on a level field. And the choices users will have from the resulting competition will eventually force OSS developers and closed-source vendors alike to address customer needs rather than only personal whim or corporate profits.
The developer-driven nature of OSS has nothing whatsoever to do with Microsoft.
It has everything to do with the origins of OSS.
Microsoft's problems are of its own making -- as are the problems of its customers.
Trouble is, a mountain of evil from Redmond does not contribute a single good regression test or usability review to any piece of OSS software.
Free Market Economics
7 earlier comments in the full thread.
The connection is simple:
If LSB will sufficiently define a core Linux that application developers can exploit, it doesn't matter so much how many wrappers that LSB comes packaged in.
Tuxchick: well said. Neither Dean and I are hard-coded into the format, so if you feel like taking a side with someone sometime, by all means, join the party.
The main rules are, stay on topic, and don't insult your counter-penguin.
Wait, that's not a rule at all. :0)
--FeriCyde
Quoting:don't insult your counter-penguin.
??????????
So what next? Are you going to try telling me I can't breathe air or drink water?
Some things are too important to joke about.
I certainly enjoyed the "format". Disagreement has never been so much fun! 40% Sixty Minutes, 20% Saturday Night Live, 35% LXer, and 5% June Allyson. It doesn't get any better than that!
Ubuntu is far from the only group doing more damage than good. Look also at the behavior of SuSE and Red Hat -- restricting everything but their trial beta versions among other things and EULAing everything else. Look at what even Perens' has done in recent years, and especially the underhanded motivations of User Linux. When the economy suffers, the weaker characters are of course readily exposed. It is the tough times that test men's character. Even a saint becomes a sinner when deprived of his customary dinner. Many good people have left due to more interesting world events, and the turmoil in disto land. Amongst some of us, our zealousness has transformed into a sort of depression concerning how hard we fought, and how close we got -- before an unelected satan worshiping politician, whose grandfather funded Hitler, let the software mafia go, and proceeded to set the rest of the world on fire. Yeah... it gets REAL easy to just throw up one's hands and say "SCREW IT!... I'm going home..." abet sadly. I think if you check around, and ask around, you'll find plenty of people who feel exactly this way. The KDE people were actually slapped around by Peren's -- for having a license too hostile toward proprietary developments: long after having been blasted for having just the opposite during the infamous "Desktop War". Go ask the KDE team if they ever get disgusted, and if they have been hurt. There will be other Perens and Ransom Loves in the future if we don't monitor the dangers of GNOME's tendency towards "extensible" licensing due to its tendency to use the LGPL instead of the shield of the GPL. Where is evil: always where you least expect it.
Things have changed, and for those with the will and strength to continue the good fight, you are hereby warned of what you face, and possibly the greater danger of becoming inflexible. The FUD is practically gone now, except for special places like ZDNet. Don't you ever wonder why the attacks have stopped? I think I know some of the answers:
1 - Red Hat. They "proved" that a "free" software company was not sustainable -- regardless of the facts, their behavior past and present is proof of this to outsiders.
2 - Misinformation and disinformation, corrupting the community, for which some of the people here still bear the battle scars from.
3 - The continued retail Microsoft tax, and the fact that they have been essentially found to be above the law, along with a variety of corporations, media organizations, and politicians.
4 - The economies that are dying everywhere, and I purport with a fiendish intent.
5 - The depressing distractions of world events.
6 - Yes... the loss of standards attempts. Look guys... Linux still doesn't have a unified packaging system after all this time! That just scratches the surface. There has simply been too much "reinventing wheels"... it is a drain on time and talent, and the end result is dissatisfaction everywhere.
Stallman was right about practically everything, and we would not be where we are now had people listened to him who should have known to -- and had we not allowed the johny-come-latelies to shout us down, who knew nothing about the hows and whys things had been done as they were -- who didn't understand the GPL or the mission of the FSF -- who were led astray by that pied piper we call ESR -- as if proprietary open source software were some kind of acceptable middle ground. People just didn't get a core thing, which I think Stallman knew, but was too politically wise to ever declare. Despite the mantra of free is not Free (as in freedom); in actually, the two cannot be separated. Whenever software REQUIRES money, it must also require restrictive EULAs, and copy protection, and it locks out the poor. Free software cannot exist unless it can be obtained without price, and copied without price, and modified without price -- or we're just stuck with the same old rental scheme in which terms can be altered against the greater good at any time.
Gentlemen, and lady, times have changed. FUD is not the greatest enemy anymore. Our enemy lies much closer to us now.
"Choice, Choice, Choice. That is what Open Standards mean. The ability for anyone who can to choose to work with someone else or work on their own version of Linux is what its all about. Are there too many? so what. If there really are too many then some will go away all by themselves. The ones that work for the most people will move on. Just like it has in the past, I for one think that if there is a distro for every Linux user out there, good, it means that people have taken control of their computers and have decided that they should be in charge. That is what having a choice is all about."
Corriher: "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" - that way you know what they are up too.
Our enemy is not Microsoft, it's each other?
Led astray by the pied piper we call ESR?
The attacks have stopped?
Uh?
Get The Facts is still online? Microsoft still telling lies about Linux? Then "the attacks" haven't stopped.
We don't have enemies - we have misinformed neighbours.
ESR? Mad as a fish in a privet bush. (As all the best people are). But he knows his stuff and is passionate about the truth. That's worth a whole lot in these days of easy lies and government sanctioned cover ups. I'd rather have 10,000 ESR's than one Bill Gates. And why shouldn't he and others speak out? Who came up with this silly idea that people who say sharp things should be locked away? (People who have something to lose perhaps?)
Deviate from the corporate norm and you're unemployable/ignorant/untrustable/stupid?
We need more George Galloways and less Tony Blairs, more RMS/ESR's and less Ballmers/Gates/Jobs.
Character defines us, blandness sets every alarm bell ringing in every heart and mind. "Oh here we go, another suit, another corporate PR whore, another preprepared plate of spin - another lie."
We are a community made up of individuals, here through choice (not because we are locked in by some highway man's idea of a license). We disagree and argue and periodically point fingers and utter threats - this is human. Gloriously so. Like the good book says "be angry but sin not".
To glide around in expensive suits and always agree and never say anything wrong is corporate robot behaviour and not human. God preserve us from corporate robots.
Once gain, better a man who knows his stuff in jeans and a t-shirt than some slick shark in a suit, all of whos efforts went into the suit not the mind within it.
We are in the IT equivalent of the Model T-Ford period. You can have any car as long as it's a black Model T (any pc as long as it runs Windows). Now we have folks in garages and sheds and workshops coming up with homemade cars. It's inevitable that all will not survive. Some of the survivors will do so against expectations. No one can tell for sure. Just that Linux will continue.
And finally...
Debian is a bit like Mama, dependable, not as exciting as in her youth but oh my, look at some of her children.
What's going on with Ubuntu right now, that might be something no one could have predicted, for example -- Shuttleworth is dumping money in, and who knows how it might end up. Could be he funds his next ride on the space shuttle from sales, for all we know.
Cash: Don't forget that Stallman himself made money from shipping tapes of GNU/Emacs. He never said you couldn't charge, but at the core of what you're saying there is a nugget of truth: The moment the cash is hard-coded into the equation, things do change.
My writing has in the past suffered a similar fate. I can't live under the corporate yoke when it comes to what I have to say, hence I'll likely never make a living as a journalist. (Ugh, leaving myself wide open there.) Some might argue that I've never been one, and that's fine by me given the track record of some of what passes for journalism in over half of the trade press right now.
But the hard truth is that I do indeed make a fine living off of Free Software -- just not in forums like this, and I'm cool with that. The moment you take cash for your opinion, someone needs to fork out the funds -- and that usually means advertising -- and that usually means that Microsoft or other corporate interests whos ideals don't necessarily line up yours appear next to your supposedly unbiased opinion. I know that this is the yoke that some people I truly admire live under at the moment, so it's not impossible to remain unbiased.
Good points -- what's the alternative to companies like RedHat? I don't honestly know at the moment.
Not one to deny that choice is a good thing. So are water and oxygen, but, under the right circumstances, too much of either will kill you.
One need not cling to a mantra as sloths do to limbs.
Quoting: Not one to deny that choice is a good thing. So are water and oxygen, but, under the right circumstances, too much of either will kill you.
True, but there is such a thing as balance. For example, is your brain getting enough oxygen lately?!?
:-P
--FeriCyde
http://tinyurl.com/8s2j5
About them in particular: Red Hat was the last, and arguably the best, of a group which made money from servicing and packaging free and yet commercial quality software. Remember how, to so many people, Red Hat WAS Linux? They were profitable doing it, and had cemented themselves a nice niche by being the last and best known to continue in that area. Given all of this, what impression is given to investors of free/Free software? Has any other company actually tried it again? Will it ever happen again? Ask yourself, why.
I did not vote, because I did not want to choose between friends. It wasn't worth the risk. I do believe all of you can determine that I agree with Dean's assertion that anything... and I do mean ANYTHING... in the extreme becomes destructive to both growth and overall health. My ramblings about balance and flexibility are core life lessons which apply to Linux as well.
One person here questioned my character. I tend to react very negatively to that sort of thing; but in this case it is partly humorous, because that behavior was exactly what I spoke of, and in a sense predicted. There will always be people who don't want to hear certain things, but silently allowing beliefs vested in denial are likely the greatest cause of suffering throughout human history.
Let me give everyone a real example of the situation using myself.
I still use an old, but heavily patched version of Red Hat from 2001. This was long before they transformed into the new "Enterprise!" (TM) Red Hat. The configuration methods, internal scripts, and packaging methods for other major distributions are all different, and except for SuSE, none of them are as polished as a Red Hat was back then -- and this includes the Mand($WHATEVER_NAME_THIS_ WEEK) distribution -- which burned up my video card -- yes hardware damage -- from the default "enhanced" frame buffer to display their cutsie logo at boot. I won't do SuSE, because I may as well go Windows if I'm going to have per-seat restrictive licensing for an $80 (per-seat) BASIC VERSION. So, what if my dad asks me to set up Linux for him? What do I do, and what do I say? Do I tell him... "Well... I don't have experience with the newer ones, and I might need to spend a few weeks studying them before we go live"? Just imagine the response... go ahead... picture it. He's going to think, "my son, the technical expert, needs to spend several weeks studying and testing the software just to get it properly installed for me... whoa.... I don't fsck'n think so." What happens when I suggest Fedora, and he later sees at Red Hat's web site that Fedora is just "beta" quality software unlike the "tested" "enterprise" software Red Hat sells?
To those who doubt me, go ahead... take your best shot... and explain how this type of situation is good for Linux. Consider it as a dare. ;) I'm completely ready to hear the rationalizations about it. While your at it, tell me in which isle I can pick up a copy of a free operating system at CompUSA.
Personally I like Debian. Debian's sweet.
In answer to your other point. It's only bad for Linux if we want some sort of "joined up perfect shop front" that is slick and flawless. People understand fallings out and test versions - that's human. I would suggest people are fairly sick and tired of perfectly presented products/companies because it's 99% artificial.
"I won't do SuSE, because I may as well go Windows if I'm going to have per-seat restrictive licensing for an $80 (per-seat) BASIC VERSION"
How sure are you about that? Suse has been available for download/install via FTP for a long time. Recently, they started making ISO files available for download too With OpenSUSE 10.0 for both CD & DVD.
In addition to the free download, you can buy a supported version of Suse Linux for $60.
I suspect that Tom may be talking about the enterprise product, and I don't know what the licensing is for that.
Today, SUSE development is becoming similar to Fedora's. YAST is completely open source, with no restriction on distribution. iso and ftp availablility coincide with the release of the boxed sets. And the boxed sets are cheaper than they used to be. (I was thinking more like $49.) Also, with the old boxed set "professional" version, you got stuff that had licensing that prevented it from being distributed in the download version. For example, SuSE was the first to have a complete virus filtering email server solution available out of the box. This was before ClamAV, so they needed AntiVir, which had restrictions. That sort of thing may or may not be your cup of tea. But it, and official support, were value for the money spent.
All in all, Novell's SUSE has been a *better* OSS player than the old SuSE. In fact, it's hard to imagine a Linux company that has changed more than SUSE over the years... except Caldera...
This is one by you Dean but no Suse 10.0 yet ftp://mirror.mcs.anl.gov/pub/suse/
This one has 10.0 & 10.1 in Frisco ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/suse/i386/
Both are fast (500KByte) if you have cable
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For those who might not know, Id Software is a game company and long time friend of Linux. It was former Id software employees that first ported the original Doom to Linux. Since the time of Quake 1 (1995'ish) Id has always taken the trouble to do an official (but unsupported) port of their games to Linux. They write very portable code, and there is usually a port to Irix, Solaris, BSD, etc. as well. They believe that cross-platform is cool.
They release the source code of their (excellent) engines under GPL a few years after initial release of the engine.
Game code is GPL'd from day one.
When the time came to release Quake 3 a few years ago, they took the bold step of officially supporting Linux. You could actually go to the store and buy a shrink-wrapped box (with a Tux sticker on it) that said Quake 3 for Linux. These were first run, so they actually came in stamped tin boxes, just like the first run Windows version. These boxed products came with full support.
In short, Id Software is a friend of Linux and has been for many years.
The Linux policy ended after the first run of boxes. Id's business manager even stated the exact reason for discontinuing the Linux version. He said, and I quote:
"Linux is a support nightmare."
He then went on to explain a bit about how there were zillions Linux of distros, all different from each other.
One might be tempted to wonder if maybe Microsoft didn't put pressure on them to make that move. Forget it. Id Software was the one game company to spit in MS's face over Direct3D back in the Quake2 era. If it had not been for the prestigious Id Software standing up to MS on the issue, I suspect few Windows users would ever have heard of OpenGL today.
Their latest game out is the excellent Doom3. It's available for Linux, as usual. And *without* official support.
Like I say, one data point. But not one to be ignored.
--- Edit: 12:24 CDT
I found the actual quote. And it was the CEO and not the business manager:
--- Computer gaming company Id Software, creator of "Doom" and "Quake," has scrapped a retail version of its Linux rendering of "Quake III Arena," chief executive Todd Hollenshead said in a recent posting.
"It's a support nightmare due to the multiple flavors of popular versions (of Linux) and the ever-changing kernel; retailers don't want it; and the Linux Q3A sales were disappointing," he said. ---