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Cutting Through Multiple Linux Distribution Concerns

Posted by tadelste on · 32 comments
LXer; By Dean Pannell and Paul Ferris
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Over the course of the Linux emergence into corporate America, one fear has repeatedly emerged -- that Linux would fragment, that there are too many distributions -- that customers and corporate managers would be confused by the myriad of choices on the Linux distribution landscape. Paul Ferris and Dean Pannell have taken sides on this issue. People need clarification. They need to understand the issues at hand. They need clear, concise, professional sources of information where decisions of this magnitude are at stake.

Are they likely not to get that kind of information here? You'll have to find out, as here comes another Penguin Counter Penguin.

LXer Penguin<Counter>Penguin LXer


Cutting Through Multiple Linux Distribution Concerns
by Dean Pannell and

Paul Ferris, LXer.com contributoring editors.



Dean, I've heard an ugly rumor.

I've heard that you think there are too many Linux distributions. All I have to say is: "What's wrong with choice?" I mean, when have you ever gone into the supermarket, gotten to the beer isle, and said "Hey, there's too many choices of brew here?". This is a crazy argument, and from my perspective, I just can't see how it causes trouble.

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde


Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac
Ugly rumor? Ugly? Paulie, are you projecting again?

I'll admit to this much: I think there are more distributions than we need. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that here is a DOS-hardened Linux called Weeble Linux. because it wobbles but won't shut down. Or, maybe, Mighty Mousix, a distribution whose GUI supports mouse gestures that might get you fined by the FCC if they were on television.

I live in constant fear that somebody will ask me for help with their Mepis machine. I don't mind helping so much, but I'm afraid I might break out laughing and pee my pants if I actually have to say Mepis.



The solution to this problem depends, Dino. Rather, I meant to say, the Solution to this problem is Depends. They sell em' at the local drug store. There's more than one brand, thankfully.

The whole "too many distros" thing, though, is often cast heaviest toward the (supposedly clueless) corporate environment. Supposedly, corporations will fear that Linux will fragment, that the "overwhelming" number of choices will cause confusion. I think you and I have both been around Enterprise deployments of Linux -- the number of vendors that can actually provide support, realistically, is limited to the support staff and the ability to certify functionality of specific pieces of software. That more or less whittles the selection criteria to a pointy-haired-boss-mind-warping 2 to three distros.

On the desktop front, the whopping number of distributions is limited by a similar factor, although the number of choices goes up a bit. I've personally had contact with several friends and relatives that bought the Wal-Mart $200.00 PC. It came with Linspire one time and another distribution the other (sorry, can't remember which one exactly). In both cases, all they knew was that it was a $200.00 PC that ran this "Line-Ucks" thing I had been talking about. Did they say they had a "Linspire" PC? No.

But again, think about how many PCs come pre-loaded with Linux in general. In the true retail and large brand sector, the numbers (at the moment) are staggeringly small. No danger, in other words, any time soon of there being too much choice of anything, in other words.

Okay, so maybe the home-brew market, you find people like you and I building the DinoCyde distro. Big fat harry deal. Someone has to lift up that rock on the web and look under it to find the steaming pile of code that comprises the distro. They're not going to be confused by that time -- they're going to be looking for the one Linux distro that answers some special need.

In this case, they're looking for a special functionality called Hyper-Skitzo, whereby the computer displays alternating moments of brilliance and symptoms of being dumber than a post. The DinoCyde distro would obviously fill a special niche in the market for people that are looking to balance their incorrectly deployed mood-altering-meds.

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde




Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac
OK. So...Let's say for a moment that we have found a magic oasis of agreement, though, Paulie, I must carefully re-examine any scenario which requires you to be right about something.

Let us bounce through possible distributions.

Hmmmm. We've got CorporateLand. OK. Count off Red Hat, Novell. Can't leave out TurboLinux for our Asian friends.

Let's see...Source based distributions. Gentoo, check. And, why the heck not Lunar, which is a fork of Sorceror. But also, GASP!, Debian, Fedora, and Suse, which can be completely compiled at home.

Let's see...Good desktop distros. Well, there's Linspire if you want nice corporate support behind you and some goodies to go with it. There's also Mandriva, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, and GASP!! Suse. Let's throw SimplyMepis in here because it makes me giggle when I type it.

Hard-Core Distros for the serious Linux soul: Slackware, Debian, Gentoo, Suse, Fedora.

Hey? How live CDs? Lemme see...There's always Knoppix, PCLinux, and Damned Small Linux. Whoops!! Did I leave out SimplyMEPIS and GASP!! Suse Live CD?

For good measure, let's throw in IndLinux because India is a special kind of place.

Now, Paulie, that's a pretty comprehensive list and it covers a darned wide collection of needs. But here's the kicker: That big old sprawling list only comes to 18 distributions!!! Out in the wild, you can find something like 150-200 distributions.

Yikes!!





Dino, Dino, Dino. I can see full well that you're frightened. I was frightened as well by the your efficient and effective use of capital letters. That and the fact that you swore.

But what was that about agreement? How can you be frightened about a choice of only 250 distributions, when in the true wild of the marketplace (corporate, roughly two, desktop less than a dozen) the ones that make it in numbers are small enough, even for a brain with your limited cache-size.

I mean, someones gotta try a different recipe for beer somewhere. In the states here we have something called micro-breweries. Some make it, some don't. The ones that truly make it may someday hope to have their beers on the shelf at the local Wal-Mart or Giant Eagle. The others may have to play to a localized limited audience. Still others may make beer that tastes like shoe polish. Those few typically go away.

That's the way a marketplace works, isn't it? I thought you were the staunch believer in such things, or was I missing something? I have yet to meet someone in corporate America (oh wait, besides you) who's had to make a distribution choice and been truly frightened by it. Mostly it boils down, I believe, to a bad thought program that anything but the market leverage abused by traditional monopolistic closed-source won't work -- either for the customer or for the vendor.

I think the success of Linux in general has proven that that model now has a solid alternative. Neither of us is really going to cause there to be more or less distributions. Not unless you want to take me up on the DinoCyde distro, which as far as thought programs go, is sure to be a real core-dumper.

I sincerely don't see a reason to keep pretending that there's anything bad about the variety out there. Time and again, as different vendors have chosen things that their end-users didn't like, people have been at least free to switch to a distribution that offered more value or features that were more aligned with their philosophy. Single-source proprietary vendors, in stark contrast, simply dictate the change De jour, and the users end up with no choice.

So, are you agreeing with me or not? Come on Dino, face your fears! Stop swearing and cowering in the dismal darkness of Draconian distribution doubt. You can do it!

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde


Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac
Well, Paulie, I have to admit that the mere existence of BigPurpleDinosaur Linux doesn't do my any direct harm. It does do harm to the advancement of Linux in a couple of ways.

The problem of confusing potential new users may be a bigger deal than you think. Not everyone shares your enthusiasm for living in a state of confusion. Or Ohio, for that matter.

One of Microsoft's under-appreciated assets is a large and widespread army of Windows "gurus". Quality control is, ahem, iffy at best, but this merry band of advice-givers provide a security blanket to users everywhere. And, by and large, they tend to say similar things because, in the Windows world, you don't have umpteen choices.

Imagine a Windows user considering the leap to Linux. Even if he or she is lucky enough to know a local guru, that person might just be a rabid aficionado of Rowdy Chihuahua Linux.

The Windows user, after browsing the local bookstore and strolling through google, may find that nearly nobody uses Rowdy Chihuahua, get a little gun-shy, and decide that Windows ain't so bad.

Alternatively, he or she may bite the bullet, install Rowdy Chihuahua, find the local guru unavailable due to a development death march, and, unable to find useful help for the nasty little dog distro, decide that Linux ain't so good.

Multiply this by a couple of hundred hungry little dogs, mepii, etc, and you've got a drag on Linux uptake.





Well, I can see a bit of your point there, so maybe you should wear a looser hat and it might cover that up.

Listen, the whole brand thing is a bit hard to manage in the OSS world. Maybe the confusion will slow things in the way you describe in some circumstances. But I think we have inertia on our side. I think that over time, more and more people will come to grips with this complexity, and (hopefully) come to enjoy it. Given the complexity of technology in general, this might be a bit of a stretch, but we can only hope.

If we have to wait a bit more, I say this is a Good Thing (TM). The alternative (YA-VOL Linux) would be bad. I know you're arguing for less, not a single distro, but say, maybe 10 or so. It is not to be. The reference to the third Reich here kind of dictates the end of our banter, so let's just agree to disagree on this point.

Ohio, though, is a great place to live. You're wrong, I tell you. Wrong!

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde




Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac
Yeah, just like I was wrong that the White Sox would send the Indians packing in the AL Central.

You've convinced me that we can survive a Saganesque multiplicity of distributions.

Fine.

Is it possible, however, that all those distros are a symptom of some other problem?

Let's face it, Linux and OSS in general have been very developer-driven.

Corporate interests have helped to temper that in recent years by expressing the need, with dollars and people, for little things like usability, little things that end users might notice, but, in OSS-land, developers remain king.

Now, if you're really excited about FOSS, you have talent, energy, and time, but you're really not a developer, what are you going to do?

Face it, you don't see a lot of people out there offering up props for testers, doc writers, UI designers, artists, etc.

Making a distro is one way to grab yourself some glory without being a heavy developer.

Just a thought.

Let's bury the hatchet on this one.






Paul Ferris (FeriCyde) is an IT professional with over 15 years of *nix experience, and over 5 years of that implementing Linux in enterprise-class situations. He has been discussing Linux for more than 7 years in various publications, on-line and in print. He's an engineer, Linux community member, husband, father and more. Lately he's been contributing to LXer.com to the general discomfort of the folks in the Northwest.

Penguin<Counter>Penguin
Dean Pannell (DinoTrac) has been nourishing a general lack of trades for years. Once a performance geek in BIG mainframe shops, he's been horsing around with Linux since 1998, and writing about it since 1999. Brain-damaged along the way, he dropped out to attend law school and became a lawyer. Fortunately for the world, he has come to his senses since then. One troubling symptom remains -- he keeps the license up to date... Wonder if therapy would help?


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Comments (32)

ID Software

sbergman27 ·
Just a data point from the real world. It's just one data point out of many. I'm sure there are examples to contradict it.

For those who might not know, Id Software is a game company and long time friend of Linux. It was former Id software employees that first ported the original Doom to Linux. Since the time of Quake 1 (1995'ish) Id has always taken the trouble to do an official (but unsupported) port of their games to Linux. They write very portable code, and there is usually a port to Irix, Solaris, BSD, etc. as well. They believe that cross-platform is cool.

They release the source code of their (excellent) engines under GPL a few years after initial release of the engine.

Game code is GPL'd from day one.

When the time came to release Quake 3 a few years ago, they took the bold step of officially supporting Linux. You could actually go to the store and buy a shrink-wrapped box (with a Tux sticker on it) that said Quake 3 for Linux. These were first run, so they actually came in stamped tin boxes, just like the first run Windows version. These boxed products came with full support.

In short, Id Software is a friend of Linux and has been for many years.

The Linux policy ended after the first run of boxes. Id's business manager even stated the exact reason for discontinuing the Linux version. He said, and I quote:

"Linux is a support nightmare."

He then went on to explain a bit about how there were zillions Linux of distros, all different from each other.

One might be tempted to wonder if maybe Microsoft didn't put pressure on them to make that move. Forget it. Id Software was the one game company to spit in MS's face over Direct3D back in the Quake2 era. If it had not been for the prestigious Id Software standing up to MS on the issue, I suspect few Windows users would ever have heard of OpenGL today.

Their latest game out is the excellent Doom3. It's available for Linux, as usual. And *without* official support.

Like I say, one data point. But not one to be ignored.

--- Edit: 12:24 CDT

I found the actual quote. And it was the CEO and not the business manager:

--- Computer gaming company Id Software, creator of "Doom" and "Quake," has scrapped a retail version of its Linux rendering of "Quake III Arena," chief executive Todd Hollenshead said in a recent posting.

"It's a support nightmare due to the multiple flavors of popular versions (of Linux) and the ever-changing kernel; retailers don't want it; and the Linux Q3A sales were disappointing," he said. ---
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dinotrac ·
Y'know, Steve...

I forgot all about games. Games are one of those things that get real tight with the hardware and drivers.

They're all one of those things likely to appeal to someone persnickety enough to run Rowdy Chihuahua Linux or some such thing.

Bad combo for Id, I would say, and support for my position that I gave up too easily.
PaulFerris ·
Yeah, I'm on the same page here -- don't see how to fix it unless Linux gaming APIs can be consolodated better than they are presently.

Developers and Users

sbicknel ·
"Let's face it, Linux and OSS in general have been very developer-driven.

"Corporate interests have helped to temper that in recent years by expressing the need, with dollars and people, for little things like usability, little things that end users might notice, but, in OSS-land, developers remain king. "

If OSS is developer-driven as opposed to user-driven, then the current monopoly-dominated closed-source market is vendor driven as opposed to customer driven.

OSS, especially open file formats that level the playing field on the desktop, wrenches that market loose from the grip single Monopolistic Software vendors hold.

We have had many years of single-vendor customer disservice. OSS is no guarantee of better service, but it seems to be the only way to force corporations to play on a level field. And the choices users will have from the resulting competition will eventually force OSS developers and closed-source vendors alike to address customer needs rather than only personal whim or corporate profits.
dinotrac ·
sbicknel -

The developer-driven nature of OSS has nothing whatsoever to do with Microsoft.

It has everything to do with the origins of OSS.

Microsoft's problems are of its own making -- as are the problems of its customers.

Trouble is, a mountain of evil from Redmond does not contribute a single good regression test or usability review to any piece of OSS software.

Free Market Economics

7 earlier comments in the full thread.

jimf ·
While LSB is a laudable goal and Debian is appearently commiting to that goal, I doubt that this will effect the number of Distros that are produced. I just don't see the connection.
dinotrac ·
Jimf -

The connection is simple:

If LSB will sufficiently define a core Linux that application developers can exploit, it doesn't matter so much how many wrappers that LSB comes packaged in.
PaulFerris ·
Well, I pretty much agree with you jimf, but the main idea of the article (and format) was to generate discussion -- I think it's clear that I think the idea of "too many distributions" keeps coming up. Microsoft has made reference to it in ad campaigns (remember the mutated penguin campaign in Germany a few years back?).

Tuxchick: well said. Neither Dean and I are hard-coded into the format, so if you feel like taking a side with someone sometime, by all means, join the party.

The main rules are, stay on topic, and don't insult your counter-penguin.

Wait, that's not a rule at all. :0)

--FeriCyde
dinotrac ·
Paulie --

Quoting:don't insult your counter-penguin.


??????????

So what next? Are you going to try telling me I can't breathe air or drink water?

Some things are too important to joke about.
sbergman27 ·
Paul,

I certainly enjoyed the "format". Disagreement has never been so much fun! 40% Sixty Minutes, 20% Saturday Night Live, 35% LXer, and 5% June Allyson. It doesn't get any better than that!
Corriher ·
Times change, and people must change them, or change with them. A core theme of all established religions -- and absolute dogma in Buddhism -- is that nothing of this world is permanent. Whether talking about spiritual combat, or the more worldly types, the keys to martial success is flexibility and balance. It is far too easy to become so accustomed to an approach that we instead act with misguided reflex. All types of combat lead to a type of shell shock where this is likely. This is true of some of you, and even to one whom I admire too much to be more direct.

Ubuntu is far from the only group doing more damage than good. Look also at the behavior of SuSE and Red Hat -- restricting everything but their trial beta versions among other things and EULAing everything else. Look at what even Perens' has done in recent years, and especially the underhanded motivations of User Linux. When the economy suffers, the weaker characters are of course readily exposed. It is the tough times that test men's character. Even a saint becomes a sinner when deprived of his customary dinner. Many good people have left due to more interesting world events, and the turmoil in disto land. Amongst some of us, our zealousness has transformed into a sort of depression concerning how hard we fought, and how close we got -- before an unelected satan worshiping politician, whose grandfather funded Hitler, let the software mafia go, and proceeded to set the rest of the world on fire. Yeah... it gets REAL easy to just throw up one's hands and say "SCREW IT!... I'm going home..." abet sadly. I think if you check around, and ask around, you'll find plenty of people who feel exactly this way. The KDE people were actually slapped around by Peren's -- for having a license too hostile toward proprietary developments: long after having been blasted for having just the opposite during the infamous "Desktop War". Go ask the KDE team if they ever get disgusted, and if they have been hurt. There will be other Perens and Ransom Loves in the future if we don't monitor the dangers of GNOME's tendency towards "extensible" licensing due to its tendency to use the LGPL instead of the shield of the GPL. Where is evil: always where you least expect it.

Things have changed, and for those with the will and strength to continue the good fight, you are hereby warned of what you face, and possibly the greater danger of becoming inflexible. The FUD is practically gone now, except for special places like ZDNet. Don't you ever wonder why the attacks have stopped? I think I know some of the answers:

1 - Red Hat. They "proved" that a "free" software company was not sustainable -- regardless of the facts, their behavior past and present is proof of this to outsiders.

2 - Misinformation and disinformation, corrupting the community, for which some of the people here still bear the battle scars from.

3 - The continued retail Microsoft tax, and the fact that they have been essentially found to be above the law, along with a variety of corporations, media organizations, and politicians.

4 - The economies that are dying everywhere, and I purport with a fiendish intent.

5 - The depressing distractions of world events.

6 - Yes... the loss of standards attempts. Look guys... Linux still doesn't have a unified packaging system after all this time! That just scratches the surface. There has simply been too much "reinventing wheels"... it is a drain on time and talent, and the end result is dissatisfaction everywhere.

Stallman was right about practically everything, and we would not be where we are now had people listened to him who should have known to -- and had we not allowed the johny-come-latelies to shout us down, who knew nothing about the hows and whys things had been done as they were -- who didn't understand the GPL or the mission of the FSF -- who were led astray by that pied piper we call ESR -- as if proprietary open source software were some kind of acceptable middle ground. People just didn't get a core thing, which I think Stallman knew, but was too politically wise to ever declare. Despite the mantra of free is not Free (as in freedom); in actually, the two cannot be separated. Whenever software REQUIRES money, it must also require restrictive EULAs, and copy protection, and it locks out the poor. Free software cannot exist unless it can be obtained without price, and copied without price, and modified without price -- or we're just stuck with the same old rental scheme in which terms can be altered against the greater good at any time.

Gentlemen, and lady, times have changed. FUD is not the greatest enemy anymore. Our enemy lies much closer to us now.
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sharkscott ·
I shall quote myself

"Choice, Choice, Choice. That is what Open Standards mean. The ability for anyone who can to choose to work with someone else or work on their own version of Linux is what its all about. Are there too many? so what. If there really are too many then some will go away all by themselves. The ones that work for the most people will move on. Just like it has in the past, I for one think that if there is a distro for every Linux user out there, good, it means that people have taken control of their computers and have decided that they should be in charge. That is what having a choice is all about."

Corriher: "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" - that way you know what they are up too.
salparadise ·
Interesting is it not, how the very people who go all dribbly and ga-ga over "choice" under usual circumstances are here trying to portray it as a "bad thing"?

Our enemy is not Microsoft, it's each other?

Led astray by the pied piper we call ESR?

The attacks have stopped?

Uh?

Get The Facts is still online? Microsoft still telling lies about Linux? Then "the attacks" haven't stopped.

We don't have enemies - we have misinformed neighbours.

ESR? Mad as a fish in a privet bush. (As all the best people are). But he knows his stuff and is passionate about the truth. That's worth a whole lot in these days of easy lies and government sanctioned cover ups. I'd rather have 10,000 ESR's than one Bill Gates. And why shouldn't he and others speak out? Who came up with this silly idea that people who say sharp things should be locked away? (People who have something to lose perhaps?)

Deviate from the corporate norm and you're unemployable/ignorant/untrustable/stupid?

We need more George Galloways and less Tony Blairs, more RMS/ESR's and less Ballmers/Gates/Jobs.

Character defines us, blandness sets every alarm bell ringing in every heart and mind. "Oh here we go, another suit, another corporate PR whore, another preprepared plate of spin - another lie."

We are a community made up of individuals, here through choice (not because we are locked in by some highway man's idea of a license). We disagree and argue and periodically point fingers and utter threats - this is human. Gloriously so. Like the good book says "be angry but sin not".

To glide around in expensive suits and always agree and never say anything wrong is corporate robot behaviour and not human. God preserve us from corporate robots.

Once gain, better a man who knows his stuff in jeans and a t-shirt than some slick shark in a suit, all of whos efforts went into the suit not the mind within it.

We are in the IT equivalent of the Model T-Ford period. You can have any car as long as it's a black Model T (any pc as long as it runs Windows). Now we have folks in garages and sheds and workshops coming up with homemade cars. It's inevitable that all will not survive. Some of the survivors will do so against expectations. No one can tell for sure. Just that Linux will continue.

And finally...

Debian is a bit like Mama, dependable, not as exciting as in her youth but oh my, look at some of her children.







Read the whole comment
PaulFerris ·
Thomas! Awesome to see you. I don't hold the dismal Linux-view that you do, but as always, appreciate your perspective. I also don't think RedHat "proved" that you can't make money as a Free Software company.

What's going on with Ubuntu right now, that might be something no one could have predicted, for example -- Shuttleworth is dumping money in, and who knows how it might end up. Could be he funds his next ride on the space shuttle from sales, for all we know.

Cash: Don't forget that Stallman himself made money from shipping tapes of GNU/Emacs. He never said you couldn't charge, but at the core of what you're saying there is a nugget of truth: The moment the cash is hard-coded into the equation, things do change.

My writing has in the past suffered a similar fate. I can't live under the corporate yoke when it comes to what I have to say, hence I'll likely never make a living as a journalist. (Ugh, leaving myself wide open there.) Some might argue that I've never been one, and that's fine by me given the track record of some of what passes for journalism in over half of the trade press right now.

But the hard truth is that I do indeed make a fine living off of Free Software -- just not in forums like this, and I'm cool with that. The moment you take cash for your opinion, someone needs to fork out the funds -- and that usually means advertising -- and that usually means that Microsoft or other corporate interests whos ideals don't necessarily line up yours appear next to your supposedly unbiased opinion. I know that this is the yoke that some people I truly admire live under at the moment, so it's not impossible to remain unbiased.

Good points -- what's the alternative to companies like RedHat? I don't honestly know at the moment.
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dinotrac ·
To all -

Not one to deny that choice is a good thing. So are water and oxygen, but, under the right circumstances, too much of either will kill you.

One need not cling to a mantra as sloths do to limbs.
PaulFerris ·
Quoting: Not one to deny that choice is a good thing. So are water and oxygen, but, under the right circumstances, too much of either will kill you.


True, but there is such a thing as balance. For example, is your brain getting enough oxygen lately?!?

:-P

--FeriCyde
sbergman27 ·
Just stumbled across this article in which Matthew Szulik chimes in on the distro consolidation issue:

http://tinyurl.com/8s2j5
Abe ·
We are forgetting one thing. Many of these distros are not for public consumption and they are nothing more than someone publishing what they did while exploring and learning. I say the more of them the better in this case. There hasn't been a distro that didn't come from another but each one has come with new ideas or different approach of doing one thing or another. This contributed to the fast development of all distros and even made the original ones more advanced and feature rich. Yes, too many could be harmful, but the benefits way out weigh the drawbacks.
Corriher ·
Thank you Colonel Ferris. By the way, you really ought to update your blog sometimes, because I occasionally check-in with it to see how life is going for you; and perhaps others do too. You made a minor misinterpretation of me, in the area we are most likely to experience confusion with: in regards to Red Hat. Once again, your perspective was based upon the truth of the situation, and my comments concentrated instead upon the likely perspective of the situation; which can muddle the truth into oblivion. Someone I once knew was fond of saying: "Don't muddle the issue with the facts." (in sarcasm) There is a great truth hidden in that sarcasm. A false belief, if strong enough, becomes another's "truth"... their reality.

About them in particular: Red Hat was the last, and arguably the best, of a group which made money from servicing and packaging free and yet commercial quality software. Remember how, to so many people, Red Hat WAS Linux? They were profitable doing it, and had cemented themselves a nice niche by being the last and best known to continue in that area. Given all of this, what impression is given to investors of free/Free software? Has any other company actually tried it again? Will it ever happen again? Ask yourself, why.

I did not vote, because I did not want to choose between friends. It wasn't worth the risk. I do believe all of you can determine that I agree with Dean's assertion that anything... and I do mean ANYTHING... in the extreme becomes destructive to both growth and overall health. My ramblings about balance and flexibility are core life lessons which apply to Linux as well.

One person here questioned my character. I tend to react very negatively to that sort of thing; but in this case it is partly humorous, because that behavior was exactly what I spoke of, and in a sense predicted. There will always be people who don't want to hear certain things, but silently allowing beliefs vested in denial are likely the greatest cause of suffering throughout human history.

Let me give everyone a real example of the situation using myself.

I still use an old, but heavily patched version of Red Hat from 2001. This was long before they transformed into the new "Enterprise!" (TM) Red Hat. The configuration methods, internal scripts, and packaging methods for other major distributions are all different, and except for SuSE, none of them are as polished as a Red Hat was back then -- and this includes the Mand($WHATEVER_NAME_THIS_ WEEK) distribution -- which burned up my video card -- yes hardware damage -- from the default "enhanced" frame buffer to display their cutsie logo at boot. I won't do SuSE, because I may as well go Windows if I'm going to have per-seat restrictive licensing for an $80 (per-seat) BASIC VERSION. So, what if my dad asks me to set up Linux for him? What do I do, and what do I say? Do I tell him... "Well... I don't have experience with the newer ones, and I might need to spend a few weeks studying them before we go live"? Just imagine the response... go ahead... picture it. He's going to think, "my son, the technical expert, needs to spend several weeks studying and testing the software just to get it properly installed for me... whoa.... I don't fsck'n think so." What happens when I suggest Fedora, and he later sees at Red Hat's web site that Fedora is just "beta" quality software unlike the "tested" "enterprise" software Red Hat sells?

To those who doubt me, go ahead... take your best shot... and explain how this type of situation is good for Linux. Consider it as a dare. ;) I'm completely ready to hear the rationalizations about it. While your at it, tell me in which isle I can pick up a copy of a free operating system at CompUSA.
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salparadise ·
I agree with what you say about Fedora. I think it's a no-go in any kind of a commercial setting. That said, if you look at the Migrations page on this site there are a couple of companies that have gone with Fedora (or had Fedora installed for them more likely). Not sure about the figures you quote for SuSE. It's given away on all the magazines. We have a 12 seat dual boot training room at work I put together and I used SuSE 9.3 Pro - free from a magazine. It's also freely available on the SuSE ftp servers. Presumably the payment is for support. (?)

Personally I like Debian. Debian's sweet.

In answer to your other point. It's only bad for Linux if we want some sort of "joined up perfect shop front" that is slick and flawless. People understand fallings out and test versions - that's human. I would suggest people are fairly sick and tired of perfectly presented products/companies because it's 99% artificial.

Abe ·
Corriher:

"I won't do SuSE, because I may as well go Windows if I'm going to have per-seat restrictive licensing for an $80 (per-seat) BASIC VERSION"

How sure are you about that? Suse has been available for download/install via FTP for a long time. Recently, they started making ISO files available for download too With OpenSUSE 10.0 for both CD & DVD.
dinotrac ·
Abe & Tom:

In addition to the free download, you can buy a supported version of Suse Linux for $60.

I suspect that Tom may be talking about the enterprise product, and I don't know what the licensing is for that.
Corriher ·
I thought it was $80, Dean. Isn't the download version the "trial" version, that's just a live CD -- ie. no installer? I'm pretty sure that was how it used to be, and haven't heard anything about that changing. I'll check into it, but feel free to make corrections, as I keep getting distracted away from here.
sbergman27 ·
Much has changed between the time that Novell bought SuSE and today.

Today, SUSE development is becoming similar to Fedora's. YAST is completely open source, with no restriction on distribution. iso and ftp availablility coincide with the release of the boxed sets. And the boxed sets are cheaper than they used to be. (I was thinking more like $49.) Also, with the old boxed set "professional" version, you got stuff that had licensing that prevented it from being distributed in the download version. For example, SuSE was the first to have a complete virus filtering email server solution available out of the box. This was before ClamAV, so they needed AntiVir, which had restrictions. That sort of thing may or may not be your cup of tea. But it, and official support, were value for the money spent.

All in all, Novell's SUSE has been a *better* OSS player than the old SuSE. In fact, it's hard to imagine a Linux company that has changed more than SUSE over the years... except Caldera...
Abe ·
$80 for the desktop version, the Enterprise server version is more expensive (~$300) since it comes with one year support. I think Corriher is referring to the Suse Linux Professional which is $90 last I heard. But, like I said, you can download it from mirrors for free but will have NO support and NO books, which by the way are excellent. It is my distro that I have been using for 6 years. I purchase it once a year after I install it via ftp (no need to download). Here is a link http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/downloads/f...

This is one by you Dean but no Suse 10.0 yet ftp://mirror.mcs.anl.gov/pub/suse/

This one has 10.0 & 10.1 in Frisco ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/suse/i386/

Both are fast (500KByte) if you have cable

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