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Summary of Mono’s Danger to GNU/Linux and the Free Desktop
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Comments (94)
Same old, Same old.
53 earlier comments in the full thread.
tracyanne -
But you are using sensible person logic, not conspiracy theory logic.
In conspiracy theory logic, something like this is OD:
Hitler drank water. FDR drank water.
Ergo, FDR was Hitler's agent.
But you are using sensible person logic, not conspiracy theory logic.
In conspiracy theory logic, something like this is OD:
Hitler drank water. FDR drank water.
Ergo, FDR was Hitler's agent.
Quoting:Sam Varghese is a journalist in the traditional sense of the word
Who changed their style to that of a snarky blogger who rants and raves. You can throw out who is a traditional journalist and who is not. You could have written for the Associated Press for 45 years for all I care. It's not the job of the AP to inform people in my view. It's their job to tell them what to think.
Note that it says "summary!" As in, "We've talked about this before, but for those wanting a comprehensive resource or who are not familiar with this..."
Quoting:Put it all together and running around like Chicken Little seems pretty darned silly.
To me, it's more like keeping a wary eye open. I understand why MONO was created. However, I don't understand why one couldn't have come up with an original development platform instead. We have ODF, and it can be used on multiple platforms. We have Qt, which also can be run on numerous platforms. Heck, there's even Gambas for pete's sakes, and I hardly see a peep from anybody about it! It's something that could very well blow Visual Basic out of the water (old school, not the craptacular, confusing as all let out version), yet how many of us would know it? After all, I hardly see any coverage of it!
Quoting:In reality, none, except that done by FOSS folk spraining faces as they get their noses out of joint.
Except for one thing: "We have to keep catering to Windows, catering to Windows, catering to Windows........" I can understand helping those who may eventually want to migrate, but the line's gotta be drawn somewhere. At what point do we stop copying other concepts per se and become original? Even better, why not simply improve on the existing concepts in addition to creating new concepts?
Quoting:FOSS is scratch an itch land and mono was Miguel's itch.
Good for him then. He is attempting to address something he wanted addressed. The problem is this: the concept of a software patent. This is why said concept is a very bad idea as it can prevent third party competition in the end. I can see Roy's point altogether: How does one prevent legal blackmail on the part of a multi billion dollar software corporation? With software patents in place, very difficult, if not downright impossible. They don't even have to win the case. They can go long enough to bankrupt their opposition. That is the whole point! It is an attempt to create fear against innovation, period.
Quoting:Then why does BoycottNovell keep coming back to it as the central point of their argument?
Because of the Microsoft/Novell covenant! Were it not for that, it would not be as much of an issue as it is now!
Quoting:However, I don't understand why one couldn't have come up with an original development platform instead.
Now there *is* an interesting question. Take a look at the bare C# specs, which are free by any measure. What I'd like to see is a language very much like Python or C# but which is compiled and linked like regular C or C++. All the wonderful syntax and management of a high level language but the raw power and speed of C. *That's* what I'd love to see. I'd switch in an instant. Especially if it's supports WSIG to port C libraries.
nixed -
I don't understand your post.
Who said an original development platform couldn't have been developed? We are awash in them. How about Ruby, Rails, Python, PHP, etc.
Your question is like asking why Alan Jackson couldn't play punk music. The answer is: it's not his thing.
Miguel hasn't kept anybody from developing original platforms. If you want some new and whizbang platform, then, by all means, develop one or pay somebody to develop one.
Miguel is free to do what he wants to do and you are free to ignore it altogether. Nobody is going to make you use Mono.
>The problem is this: the concept of a software patent.
Have people utterly given up trying to create arguments? Nothing about the phrase "concept of a softare patent" acts as a magic talisman that you can wave and suddenly make yourself right.
I don't think anybody around here will argue if you say that software patents are a bad thing. I might waffle a bit, but will agree completely that, in actual practice, they suck hind teat and then some.
Software patens are a curse on software development. Yechhh!!! Awful. Smelly. Bad thngs.
But that doesn't get you to Miguel shouldn't be doing Mono.
Next thing you know, somebody's going to report having seen software patents on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 1963.
I don't understand your post.
Who said an original development platform couldn't have been developed? We are awash in them. How about Ruby, Rails, Python, PHP, etc.
Your question is like asking why Alan Jackson couldn't play punk music. The answer is: it's not his thing.
Miguel hasn't kept anybody from developing original platforms. If you want some new and whizbang platform, then, by all means, develop one or pay somebody to develop one.
Miguel is free to do what he wants to do and you are free to ignore it altogether. Nobody is going to make you use Mono.
>The problem is this: the concept of a software patent.
Have people utterly given up trying to create arguments? Nothing about the phrase "concept of a softare patent" acts as a magic talisman that you can wave and suddenly make yourself right.
I don't think anybody around here will argue if you say that software patents are a bad thing. I might waffle a bit, but will agree completely that, in actual practice, they suck hind teat and then some.
Software patens are a curse on software development. Yechhh!!! Awful. Smelly. Bad thngs.
But that doesn't get you to Miguel shouldn't be doing Mono.
Next thing you know, somebody's going to report having seen software patents on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 1963.
Sander_Marechal said:
"And it's not megalomania if he really does have the answer to life, the universe and everything ;-) "
Wait . . . I know that one.
42.
[Taking a bow and returning to my appointed rounds getting the people of Felton familiar with GNU/Linux . . . ]
"And it's not megalomania if he really does have the answer to life, the universe and everything ;-) "
Wait . . . I know that one.
42.
[Taking a bow and returning to my appointed rounds getting the people of Felton familiar with GNU/Linux . . . ]
Quoting:Ergo, FDR was Hitler's agent.
Oh, do you mean he wasn't?
tracyanne -
Well, only in the early days when Hitler was trying to break into Vaudeville with a juggling act.
Well, only in the early days when Hitler was trying to break into Vaudeville with a juggling act.
jdixon>> I like a number of people I've encountered on LXer. TC, Dino, Sander, and others (some of whom are no longer with us on LXer, and at least one who is no longer with us at all). I've never met any of them in person and would be hard pressed to count them as "friends". That takes a bit more than an occasional online interaction.
Be careful there, I do go visit people I meet on forums, last week I saw helios. You are safe, I'll see tracyanne before you!
Friends, 21st century friends.
Be careful there, I do go visit people I meet on forums, last week I saw helios. You are safe, I'll see tracyanne before you!
Friends, 21st century friends.
Colonel. Is it true you had coffee with helios?
Let's see... I'll have dark coffee, mild cream, artificial sweetener, and extra helios.
/me ducks and runs fast
/me ducks and runs fast
I heard it was early in the morning too... lol....
Last time I checked, putting helios in coffee was a crime in 47 states and Puerto Rico.
Thanks, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your server... very carefully...
Thanks, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your server... very carefully...
Yes my friends, helios and the Colonel meet at 11:30pm
in a secret 24 hour dinner somewhere near Austin, TX.
Helios - apple pie with ice cream Colonel - pumpkin pie
Do to our NDA I can not talk about the conversation we had but I can and will share that helios is more like me than I am.
Helios - apple pie with ice cream Colonel - pumpkin pie
Do to our NDA I can not talk about the conversation we had but I can and will share that helios is more like me than I am.
Hey Colonel,
What is the view of helios concerning Mono?
What is the view of helios concerning Mono?
thenixedreport: Mono? You better get that from the Dude himself.
helios just wants to get Linux on your computer, whatever distro works.
No matter what, just install, install, install until everything works.
Ah, so you didn't get that indepth. Oh well.
Now that this attempt to un-derail the topic has failed miserably, time to go back to the drawing board.
Now that this attempt to un-derail the topic has failed miserably, time to go back to the drawing board.
nixed --
No, you've managed to get things fixed up while maintaining our interest at the very highest and sharpest level.
Sorry to hear that helios has mono, though. Hope he feels better soon.
No, you've managed to get things fixed up while maintaining our interest at the very highest and sharpest level.
Sorry to hear that helios has mono, though. Hope he feels better soon.
That's right friends...the second dire announcement of a horrible disease by me in 5 years and I will break it here on LXer.
I have MonoNuclearOsmosDiapedesis
aka "the-drink-it-and-glow-from-the-inside-out-then-ooz-matter" killer of tens
h
I have MonoNuclearOsmosDiapedesis
aka "the-drink-it-and-glow-from-the-inside-out-then-ooz-matter" killer of tens
h
helios --
You brave man.
Hey!!
I hear there are good jobs available as traffic warning lights.
You brave man.
Hey!!
I hear there are good jobs available as traffic warning lights.
Interesting, almost a Reverse Catch22 for Microsoft
1 earlier comment in the full thread.
Quoting:- GNU/Linux is to remain "free as in beer"
GNU/Linus has never been specifically "free as in free beer" (no cost) it has always been Free as in fredom. The fact that so much of FOSS can actually be obtained at no cost does not mean that it should be, has to be, or even that it's a desirable situation necessarily - sometimes people need to eat.
vainrveenr: Scenario B is never going to happen. Remember, all that happened is that MS and Novell signed an agreement. It's not like MS bought Novell. If Novell does bad then it does not mean it's assets go to MS. If MS wants the Novell assets then it should simply buy Novell. IBM will never let that happen. And luckily for us IBM has way more money than MS (who are heading for bankruptcy pretty fast, especially if they buy Yahoo).
Quoting:MS (who are heading for bankruptcy pretty fast, especially if they buy Yahoo).
I wouldn't count those chooks before they've hatched. I think we'll be seeing Microsoft around for quite a while yet, Yahoo purchase or no Yahoo purchase.
Oh I'm sure that they will be around for a long time. They have plenty of assets they can sell to get fresh cache, and with umpteen billion profit per year there are plenty of institutions that would loan money to MS. That still doesn't take away the fact that MS's stock price has been falling pretty much all of 2008 and that their estimated 17 Billion in the bank isn't enough to buy Yahoo. If MS buys Yahoo then it will be in debt. And being in debt is usually the first sign of the beginning of the end.
Tracyanne -
You must separate the advertising from the facts.
Linux definitely is free as in freedom -- at least the freedom defined by the GPL, which is not a bad defintion.
The fact is, however, GPL software is also free as in beer, and the GPL enforces that fact. No, it doesn't forbid charging for software, but it guarantees downstream distribution of source and that, my friend down-under, guarantees free as in beer.
You cannot make money from Linux itself. You must add a value of your own. That might be service, that might be pressing CDs and printing up useful manuals, it might be developing a special-purpose distribution -- who knows.
You must separate the advertising from the facts.
Linux definitely is free as in freedom -- at least the freedom defined by the GPL, which is not a bad defintion.
The fact is, however, GPL software is also free as in beer, and the GPL enforces that fact. No, it doesn't forbid charging for software, but it guarantees downstream distribution of source and that, my friend down-under, guarantees free as in beer.
You cannot make money from Linux itself. You must add a value of your own. That might be service, that might be pressing CDs and printing up useful manuals, it might be developing a special-purpose distribution -- who knows.
> You cannot make money from Linux itself. You must add a value of your own.
I recently commented to someone at Mises.org who was writing about "Software" but really meant "Microsoft Windows", that noting how many people make a living writing anti-virus software for Windows is merely restating the "Broken Windows Fallacy".
Providing a needed service is what makes money. If the need is to guard Microsoft's abortive crap called "Windows" from attack, then so be it.
But what if that need is not as great? Then all that talent and innovation will be turned to other needs.
One of the most obvious needs is the same need that employed Dino in his mainframe days (and me but in networking): Customization.
No two businesses are alike. No two projects. F/OSS lends itself to customization far more than closed, proprietary crap. For instance, simple localization for language. Does MS-Office2007 come in Hebrew? No, but OpenOffice.org does, because someone who wanted it made it happen.
Personal service always demands a premium.
I recently commented to someone at Mises.org who was writing about "Software" but really meant "Microsoft Windows", that noting how many people make a living writing anti-virus software for Windows is merely restating the "Broken Windows Fallacy".
Providing a needed service is what makes money. If the need is to guard Microsoft's abortive crap called "Windows" from attack, then so be it.
But what if that need is not as great? Then all that talent and innovation will be turned to other needs.
One of the most obvious needs is the same need that employed Dino in his mainframe days (and me but in networking): Customization.
No two businesses are alike. No two projects. F/OSS lends itself to customization far more than closed, proprietary crap. For instance, simple localization for language. Does MS-Office2007 come in Hebrew? No, but OpenOffice.org does, because someone who wanted it made it happen.
Personal service always demands a premium.
@vainrveenr
If you'd consider this, the middle road seems to me the most likely here, rather than the xtremes of A and B you write here. Novell should remain financially somewhere In the Black rather than becoming wildly successful or In the Red. I'd generally agree with tracyanne and Sander_Marichal regarding the M$ Cartel. The Redmond Empire'll eventually gets weathered down until it's eventually forced to split apart and/or somehow adapt its methodologiess somewhere way down the road; this none too soon for projects and companies who're still been targeted by M$!
@Sander_Marichal I'd disagree with you on the point of "If MS buys Yahoo then it will be in debt"
We all know that M$ has been attributed as being the modern day equivalent of the Borg villains of Star Trek fame. The Borg Collective's takeover announcements are "Prepare to be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctives to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
First off, M$'s purchase of Yahoo is not yet a done deal at the current asking price. (BTW, resistance by the Yahoo management has _already_ been helpful in pushing off at least for awhile M$'s successful takeover bid.)
Secondly, M$ probably has at least one way at its disposal to make certain that it doesn't fall into debt, even if its preparations to acquire and assimilate Yahoo cost it a pretty penny. ------ In general, though, the comparison of Micro$haft to the Borg Collective is right on! ------
@Sander_Marichal I'd disagree with you on the point of "If MS buys Yahoo then it will be in debt"
We all know that M$ has been attributed as being the modern day equivalent of the Borg villains of Star Trek fame. The Borg Collective's takeover announcements are "Prepare to be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctives to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
First off, M$'s purchase of Yahoo is not yet a done deal at the current asking price. (BTW, resistance by the Yahoo management has _already_ been helpful in pushing off at least for awhile M$'s successful takeover bid.)
Secondly, M$ probably has at least one way at its disposal to make certain that it doesn't fall into debt, even if its preparations to acquire and assimilate Yahoo cost it a pretty penny. ------ In general, though, the comparison of Micro$haft to the Borg Collective is right on! ------
flufferbeer: Care to explain where Microsoft will get the money then? Sell their Office division perhaps? [grin]
MS bid 44.5 billion for Yahoo. 50% cash and 50% stock. MS stock has dropped from 32.60 to about 29.17 meaning that the 50% stock is now only worth about 20 billion. That means it needs to finance abour 24,5 billion in cash for it's Yahoo bid. Last estimate is that MS has about 17 billion in cash reserves. That was before the record 1 billion EU fine. So 17 - 1 (fine) - 22.5 (yahoo) = -6.5. MS is about 6.5 billion dollars short of buying Yahoo at it's standing offer. And as you indicated already, Yahoo says it's not enough. It wants more.
Where is MS going to get that kind of cash on a short notice? It'll have to get in debt. I doubt very much that MS can quickly liquidize 6.5-10 billion dollar or more in assets in such a short term.
MS bid 44.5 billion for Yahoo. 50% cash and 50% stock. MS stock has dropped from 32.60 to about 29.17 meaning that the 50% stock is now only worth about 20 billion. That means it needs to finance abour 24,5 billion in cash for it's Yahoo bid. Last estimate is that MS has about 17 billion in cash reserves. That was before the record 1 billion EU fine. So 17 - 1 (fine) - 22.5 (yahoo) = -6.5. MS is about 6.5 billion dollars short of buying Yahoo at it's standing offer. And as you indicated already, Yahoo says it's not enough. It wants more.
Where is MS going to get that kind of cash on a short notice? It'll have to get in debt. I doubt very much that MS can quickly liquidize 6.5-10 billion dollar or more in assets in such a short term.
Careful, Sander --
You're veering into dangerous territory.
It is not politically correct to accept that there are limits to Microsoft's power.
You're veering into dangerous territory.
It is not politically correct to accept that there are limits to Microsoft's power.
Hehehehe :-)
@S_M
"Where is MS going to get that kind of cash on a short notice? It'll have to get in debt. I doubt very much that MS can quickly liquidize 6.5-10 billion dollar or more in assets in such a short term."
Im not good enough to play detailed mental tricks with your questions.
Suffice it to say that M$ will somehow figure out a way to withdraw from its original offer, possibly re-offer a much much lower bid somewhere down the line, or somehow readjust its assets over time (certainly not on short notice!) to finance its bid if it still wants the great Y! I wrote "Secondly, M$ probably has at least one way at its disposal to make certain that it doesn't fall into debt, even if its preparations to acquire and assimilate Yahoo cost it a pretty penny." And avoid debt, it will certainly try (I do believe) Well, M$ could just wait until its offer for Yahoo becomes past history or if Yahoo somehow falls apart. The waiting game then backfires on Yahoo and help to keep M$ afloat -- sortof like what vainrveenr writes above in B although this remains most unlikely at the extreme.
Again, cannot help you with your more detailed questions on Micro$'s true finances.
Im not good enough to play detailed mental tricks with your questions.
Suffice it to say that M$ will somehow figure out a way to withdraw from its original offer, possibly re-offer a much much lower bid somewhere down the line, or somehow readjust its assets over time (certainly not on short notice!) to finance its bid if it still wants the great Y! I wrote "Secondly, M$ probably has at least one way at its disposal to make certain that it doesn't fall into debt, even if its preparations to acquire and assimilate Yahoo cost it a pretty penny." And avoid debt, it will certainly try (I do believe) Well, M$ could just wait until its offer for Yahoo becomes past history or if Yahoo somehow falls apart. The waiting game then backfires on Yahoo and help to keep M$ afloat -- sortof like what vainrveenr writes above in B although this remains most unlikely at the extreme.
Again, cannot help you with your more detailed questions on Micro$'s true finances.
I think that the problem with that theory is that Yahoo ain't doing all that bad. It's the #1 visited website in the world and in the US on search about equal with Google (Google pwns Yahoo in the rest of the world though).
SM --
I'm going to have to report you now. Resorting to facts and logic twice in the same thread to support a theory of non-falling skies.
Keep that up and we'll send you to a rice table (sorry -- don't know the Dutch spelling) and make you go all the way through without a beverage.
I'm going to have to report you now. Resorting to facts and logic twice in the same thread to support a theory of non-falling skies.
Keep that up and we'll send you to a rice table (sorry -- don't know the Dutch spelling) and make you go all the way through without a beverage.
That ain't no punishments. That's a reward! Make sure to bring extra sambal (oh the joys of an asbestos gullet :-)
SM --
One of the HUGE disappointments when I came back to the states after my stint in Rotterdam, was my inability to find Indonesian restaurants back home.
You really can't explain the joy of a good rice table. It must be experienced.
One of the HUGE disappointments when I came back to the states after my stint in Rotterdam, was my inability to find Indonesian restaurants back home.
You really can't explain the joy of a good rice table. It must be experienced.
In SJ, CA, I first had Etheopian. Nearly too hot (spicy) to eat, _wonderful_. Oh well. Nothing like that in North Carolina.
Oh sure, if you like greasy deep-fried everything, it's a nice place for food.
Oh sure, if you like greasy deep-fried everything, it's a nice place for food.
Quoting:Yahoo says it's not enough. It wants more.This mornings news from the Reuters' piece 'Citigroup says Microsoft likely to raise Yahoo offer' seems to confirm just that.
From its link http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080325/wr_nm/yahoo_research_cit...
Quoting:Citigroup said it is likely Microsoft Corp will raise its $31-per-share offer for Yahoo Inc and upgraded Yahoo shares to "buy" from "hold."
The brokerage also raised its price target on Yahoo's stock to $34 from $31, saying it believed Microsoft remained committed to its offer and "is capable of and willing to" increase that bid to conclude the deal.
"While we continue to see no other competing bidders, we believe Yahoo is aggressively pursuing strategic alternatives," analyst Mark Mahaney said in a note to clients.
Bob -
Ah, Ethiopian.
When my wife and I were dating down in Dallas, we used to frequent an Ethopian place -- let me see? What was it called? Might have been The Blue Nile or something like that.
That's some spicy stuff.
Ah, Ethiopian.
When my wife and I were dating down in Dallas, we used to frequent an Ethopian place -- let me see? What was it called? Might have been The Blue Nile or something like that.
That's some spicy stuff.
So anyone in/near San Jose, see if Red Sea is still in business.
mmmm.... or La Fondu in Saratoga.
There are some few things I really miss about California.. Food, mostly. Some people. I do NOT miss the politics.
mmmm.... or La Fondu in Saratoga.
There are some few things I really miss about California.. Food, mostly. Some people. I do NOT miss the politics.
Quoting:One of the HUGE disappointments when I came back to the states after my stint in Rotterdam, was my inability to find Indonesian restaurants back home.
I can understand you'd miss that. But in reverse, I have been unable to find the classical geek food "Laser chicken" and "Chernobyl chicken" anywhere here in The Netherlands.
Quoting:This mornings news from the Reuters' piece 'Citigroup says Microsoft likely to raise Yahoo offer' seems to confirm just that.
Okay. Reworking my numbers from above: That means the final bid comes out at 46.6 billion. If they split this again 50-50 between shares and cash (as their last offer) then it would pay Yahoo roughly 800 million shares of MS stock at 29.17 (23.3 billion dollar) which is a lot more than the 680 million shares from the last offer, and 23.3 billion in cash. The have 16 billion (17 billion estimate minus 1 billion EU fine) so they come up 7.3 billion dollar short.
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So why not simply use Microsoft's OS and all the licensed programs that go with it, instead of GNU/Linux, or if you a re a company simply pay up to Microsoft, after all you never know when Microsoft will sue.
That is not an argument for bashing Mono, and it does not support the notion that Mono is any more patent encumbered than any other technology used in GNU/Linux. In fact as has been pointed out numerous times, the Mono developers have put in place mechanisms to ensure that they are not breaking any patents, something no other FOSS project, I'm aware of, does, and in spite of this the Mono project gets given a special place in the FUD pantheon. The only reason I can see for this is a certain person's Mono mania.