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GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride
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Comments (26)
6 earlier comments in the full thread.
> But his whole "haters" premise is crap.
Male Bovine Manure, TC, and you know it as well as I do.
Sure, most FOSS folk have better things to do than to hate Microsoft, but enough don't to let Byfield get away with a catchy headline.
How else do you explain things like boycottnovell or the massive passion wasted against mono? How about the "I'm crying now" type of comments after Microsoft weaseled, wormed, and stormed its way through the ISO?
There's not enough Mylanta in this world to quell that much stomach acid.
Male Bovine Manure, TC, and you know it as well as I do.
Sure, most FOSS folk have better things to do than to hate Microsoft, but enough don't to let Byfield get away with a catchy headline.
How else do you explain things like boycottnovell or the massive passion wasted against mono? How about the "I'm crying now" type of comments after Microsoft weaseled, wormed, and stormed its way through the ISO?
There's not enough Mylanta in this world to quell that much stomach acid.
dino, boycottnovell is a single site, and hardly a wellspring of hate. Whether there is "massive" anti-Mono passion I don't know- it doesn't seem all that massive to me, and I understand the reasons behind it. If you're saying you're not bothered by Microsoft's dirty behavior with the ISO, then you've lost me completely. None of these are hate. What do you want, happy smiling people holding hands? Telling it like it is isn't hate.
Quoting:Telling it like it is isn't hate.
Take note of that quote, because that's the point that Byfield keeps missing.
While I understand some of the stuff that the article is talking about, but there is a reason why billions and billions are pumped into marketing / propaganda every year by just about any company / organized body. Marketing works.
And I don't agree that every conversation that is in negative light to MS can be labeled as simply as just being hate. A lot of the stuff in these conversations is true, and that's just it.
And I don't agree that every conversation that is in negative light to MS can be labeled as simply as just being hate. A lot of the stuff in these conversations is true, and that's just it.
@tc, thenixedreport, etc.:
They are currently under investigation in most of the EU for illegal practices, ranging from so-called "interoprability" matters (including the Office "Open" XML scandal) to false advertising to downright intimidation (again, including the Office "Open" XML scandal).
Now, by putting those in bold, am I one of the haters? Hardly. These things are all public knowledge, on record in countless archives all over the Internet.
I appreciate Byfield's optimism in the column, but speaking the truth is not a privilege reserved to non-FOSS users.
Quoting:Telling it like it is isn't hate.Precisely. Exposing Microsoft's illegal tactics should be high on any tech reporter's list of possible subjects, but 99% of them have forgotten that Microsoft is an unrepentant convicted monopolist.
They are currently under investigation in most of the EU for illegal practices, ranging from so-called "interoprability" matters (including the Office "Open" XML scandal) to false advertising to downright intimidation (again, including the Office "Open" XML scandal).
Now, by putting those in bold, am I one of the haters? Hardly. These things are all public knowledge, on record in countless archives all over the Internet.
I appreciate Byfield's optimism in the column, but speaking the truth is not a privilege reserved to non-FOSS users.
TC -
I never said I'm not bothered by them and I certainly approved of everybody's efforts to make the standard into a real standard or fail acceptance, but...
I'm not going to cry over it. I'm not going to lose any sleep.
In the end, it will matter about as much as the Novell deal did -- which turns out to be pretty much not at all.
I never said I'm not bothered by them and I certainly approved of everybody's efforts to make the standard into a real standard or fail acceptance, but...
I'm not going to cry over it. I'm not going to lose any sleep.
In the end, it will matter about as much as the Novell deal did -- which turns out to be pretty much not at all.
>Now, by putting those in bold, am I one of the haters?
Might be. How would I know.
What's with this unrepentant convicted monopolist crap?
Sounds pretty hateful to me.
The US case was nearly ten years ago, and Microsoft hasn't been able to get away with much in Europe.
They have 1 and exactly 1 monopoly: Desktop PCs, and that one is eroding.
So much anger for so little productive purpose.
What good does it do to call Microsoft a big fat meanie?
Will it put OpenOffice on a single PC? Will it get Mint on one?
So much better to point out that there is great software out there that will not expose you to big fat meanies and will not break your piggy bank.
Might be. How would I know.
What's with this unrepentant convicted monopolist crap?
Sounds pretty hateful to me.
The US case was nearly ten years ago, and Microsoft hasn't been able to get away with much in Europe.
They have 1 and exactly 1 monopoly: Desktop PCs, and that one is eroding.
So much anger for so little productive purpose.
What good does it do to call Microsoft a big fat meanie?
Will it put OpenOffice on a single PC? Will it get Mint on one?
So much better to point out that there is great software out there that will not expose you to big fat meanies and will not break your piggy bank.
Quoting:>Now, by putting those in bold, am I one of the haters?Then the answer is "no." If it did automatically follow that I was a hater, you would have answered "yes."
Might be. How would I know.
Quoting: So much better to point out that there is great software out there that will not expose you to big fat meanies and will not break your piggy bank.
Quite true. In my supremely humble and valuable opinion we need both FOSS promotion, and exposing the nasties.
Quoting: What's with this unrepentant convicted monopolist crap?
More like a well-documented fact. Sure it was ten years ago, because we've had eight years of an administration with a strict hands-off policy towards big business. The EU has been doing the job of the US Justice Dept.
To get back to the article, it is far from a 'only hate Microsoft' deal, which is just plain dumb. There are FOSS advocates speaking out on all kinds of issues. But Mr. Byfield doesn't want to see this, and instead paints them as a lunatic fringe. Not even a fringe, but a lunatic mainstream. There are many wrongs in the tech world that impact everyone's lives- Diebold voting machines, privacy issues, DRM, the MAFIAA and other corporate abuses, and so on, and he's missing all of that. We need people to be vocal and speak up about these things. If it seems it's mostly them unwashed FOSS hippies, is that such a surprise? It's not going to come from the corporate world, or from mainstream news media, or even tech media, who are all pretty much pwned. Microsoft gets the most attention because they are the biggest, the avowed enemy of FOSS, and the dirtiest.
You can roll over and ignore all this if you wish- nobody can fight all battles. But they are battles, and it's a good thing they are being fought, because if they weren't the world would be in an even sorrier state today.
TC -
The point where I disagree WRT Microsoft is that I believe its "glory" days are past. It has lost a lot of credibility with Vista -- and I mean a LOT. I know a lot of people who normally would never think about such things cursing Vista and going back to XP, or doing all they can to avoid Vista with their next purchase. I also see people buying Macs who never bought Macs before.
There is nothing wrong with fighting the good fight -- the whole OOXML thing is an example of fighting the good fight. When Microsoft tries to leverage it's remaining monopoly muscle, opposing that is a good fight, too. Something might actually happen. Heck -- even thought the ISO thing was a loser, it came close to being a winner.
But, railing about meanies doesn't do anything and doesn't get any FOSS software anywhere. I care if Microsoft is currently doing something that can be opposed and, if all goes well, stopped or minimized.
The past, however, is the past and, if we want it to be, the future for FOSS is so bright that I've got to wear shades.
The point where I disagree WRT Microsoft is that I believe its "glory" days are past. It has lost a lot of credibility with Vista -- and I mean a LOT. I know a lot of people who normally would never think about such things cursing Vista and going back to XP, or doing all they can to avoid Vista with their next purchase. I also see people buying Macs who never bought Macs before.
There is nothing wrong with fighting the good fight -- the whole OOXML thing is an example of fighting the good fight. When Microsoft tries to leverage it's remaining monopoly muscle, opposing that is a good fight, too. Something might actually happen. Heck -- even thought the ISO thing was a loser, it came close to being a winner.
But, railing about meanies doesn't do anything and doesn't get any FOSS software anywhere. I care if Microsoft is currently doing something that can be opposed and, if all goes well, stopped or minimized.
The past, however, is the past and, if we want it to be, the future for FOSS is so bright that I've got to wear shades.
Oh come on, this can't end on a reasonable note! It's against tradition!
Religion is much less attractive, indeed boring, without a Devil to fight. So it is with FOSS. Be thankful Microsoft is here, as without it our lives would have no meaning, in the FOSS sense.
After all those comments,I feel like I must have missed something in the article.All I got out of it was all the great stuff we've seen and all the great stuff to come because of Linux.
alc -
No, I think you pretty much got all the important stuff.
No, I think you pretty much got all the important stuff.
I've heard it mooted about that the extremely rabid, "fsck Microsoft!" linux fanbois are actually paid MSFT shills. Well, anti-shills, really.
By having some anti-shills do the neanderthal "hater" thing, MSFT (or Wagg-Ed) gets a few talking points against open source.
Since I've never looked at the access_log files for a big site with lots of pro and anti-linux arguments, I'd hesitate to say this is any more than a paranoid rumor. But an awful lot of paranoia comes true, when you're dealing with Wagg-Ed.
By having some anti-shills do the neanderthal "hater" thing, MSFT (or Wagg-Ed) gets a few talking points against open source.
Since I've never looked at the access_log files for a big site with lots of pro and anti-linux arguments, I'd hesitate to say this is any more than a paranoid rumor. But an awful lot of paranoia comes true, when you're dealing with Wagg-Ed.
/me captures alc and commences de-programming.
Seriously, the part of the article that was about FOSS achievements was right on.
Seriously, the part of the article that was about FOSS achievements was right on.
Yesterday at work I had to get the Mac out to check out an issue with one of our client's sites. So I fired it up and it came up with a nice little notice that said there were updates available, so I clicked to install them and was confronted by 4 End User License Agreements, that I had to click through (one for each peice of updated software) to install them.
On my part there was a strange feeling of dissonance, here were recommended updates to software already installed on the computer being supplied freely, or so I thought, by the developers, and I had to agree to a EULA to install them.
I commented on the strangeness of this. My boss responded in a rather abrupt, and it seemed to me defensive tone "that's the way it is, get used to it."
I was rather taken aback by this and responded with "well actually it's not, so I don't have to."
Once again he responded in his abrupt and defensive tone, 'Well it is in the Windows and Mac world so live with it."
To which I replied, "Actually I don't give a rats, it's not my computer. So I don't have to live with it."
His response to this was "just stop going on about it."
On my part there was a strange feeling of dissonance, here were recommended updates to software already installed on the computer being supplied freely, or so I thought, by the developers, and I had to agree to a EULA to install them.
I commented on the strangeness of this. My boss responded in a rather abrupt, and it seemed to me defensive tone "that's the way it is, get used to it."
I was rather taken aback by this and responded with "well actually it's not, so I don't have to."
Once again he responded in his abrupt and defensive tone, 'Well it is in the Windows and Mac world so live with it."
To which I replied, "Actually I don't give a rats, it's not my computer. So I don't have to live with it."
His response to this was "just stop going on about it."
Quoting:i've heard it mooted about that the extremely rabid, "fsck Microsoft!" linux fanbois are actually paid MSFT shills.
Does it work? Than we all should say the same about Linux. May I? May I?
Oh, forget it. Don't fsck it, love it. When is the 'I love GNU-day'? Or will people believe I'm a Microsoft shill if I say so?
Quoting:Oh come on, this can't end on a reasonable note! It's against tradition!
No worry, something already caught my eye.
Quoting:The point where I disagree WRT Microsoft is that I believe its "glory" days are past
It's using patents as its last defense (against Windows-oblivion). As long as the patent system exists in its current form; desktop users of whatever OS will have to pay MS probably or be afraid. In the past LXer discussions I learned / came to the insight (yes, that's possible!) Mono is only a small portion of the patent problem. There are two possibilities: The patent system changes, or Microsoft turns into a SCO-like IP-troll. Good things about patent trolls is they don't invent anymore (Microsoft already has reached that point), and in the next stadium they don't sell anymore either. Looking at the number of 'patentors' (at MS known as inventors), copyrighters (at MS known as software writers) and lawyers/lobbyists working at MS, it's already starting to turn into a juridical company I guess. Bad thing is: Trolls can become rather old and have long arms.
>users of whatever OS will have to pay MS probably or be afraid
Ummm...IBM's patent portfolio makes Microsoft's look sick.
And then, there's Novell (which has, for the moment, a deal with Microsoft), Sun, Oracle, whoever holds all of the Lucent patents, Apple, Motorola, bazillions of others.
Ummm...IBM's patent portfolio makes Microsoft's look sick.
And then, there's Novell (which has, for the moment, a deal with Microsoft), Sun, Oracle, whoever holds all of the Lucent patents, Apple, Motorola, bazillions of others.
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Thanks a lot for the broad, erroneous assumption, Bruce. There probably are some folks like that. Just like there are people who are offended by the truth- and who view speaking unpleasant truths as bad manners. Sure, FOSS supporters have a lot to be proud of, and it's true that it's easy to fall into the trap of reacting more to wrong stuff than good stuff. But his whole "haters" premise is crap.