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The Meaning of Open Source
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Comments (32)
12 earlier comments in the full thread.
pat, thanks for proving TC's point about fanbois. The documentation of submitted bugs carrying across releases is nearly as profuse as the dev answer of "Not our problem" or "Use this workaround". My answer to that is, yes its your problem, and a work around is fine by me, for 1 release.
By the way that was the answer I got on a bug I did report 2 years ago and as far as I know it still has not been fixed. I dont care anymore though, I moved on to a source based distro where fixing any issues that crop up is fairly simple.
This is not lambasting Ubuntu, it's just a simple truth. Challenging it because one doesn't like it does not make it any less true, it just provides an excuse not to fix something while the debate as to who is ultimately responsible for it continues.
By the way that was the answer I got on a bug I did report 2 years ago and as far as I know it still has not been fixed. I dont care anymore though, I moved on to a source based distro where fixing any issues that crop up is fairly simple.
This is not lambasting Ubuntu, it's just a simple truth. Challenging it because one doesn't like it does not make it any less true, it just provides an excuse not to fix something while the debate as to who is ultimately responsible for it continues.
> instead of saying "nobody can miss the point as widely as you without working at it", perhaps you might have said "Pat, you missed my point, it was ___________________"
I would say nobody can be that dense, but I've been proven wrong before, so...
I would say nobody can be that dense, but I've been proven wrong before, so...
It irritates me when people slag off Ubuntu unobjectively. Saying it didn't work for one (or even several) particular machine for you so therefore the distro sucks as a whole is not an objective or likely accurate assessment. If you wanted to objectively draw such a conclusion you should take a (fairly) large sample of users and document a litany of problems with Ubuntu. Further you should repeat the same exercise with PCLinuxOS (or whatever) and show that overall problems are less. Unless you do something like that all this comes off as uninformed and biased distro bashing.
I have over the past 5 years used a large number of distros and have had problems of one sort or another with a whole bunch of them. Overall Ubuntu appears to me to be somewhat better than average. Does that mean it is a seamless out of the box experience which you might wishfully hope for if you don't read the Ubuntu pages carefully then No it isn't. Is it a pile of overblown crap which has been overhyped. No it isn't.
Shuttleworth himself makes no such claim if you read his interviews carefully. In fact he admits there is still a long way to go to match the polish of OSX and Windows. That seems like a rather modest and realistic claim to me.
/Rant
I have over the past 5 years used a large number of distros and have had problems of one sort or another with a whole bunch of them. Overall Ubuntu appears to me to be somewhat better than average. Does that mean it is a seamless out of the box experience which you might wishfully hope for if you don't read the Ubuntu pages carefully then No it isn't. Is it a pile of overblown crap which has been overhyped. No it isn't.
Shuttleworth himself makes no such claim if you read his interviews carefully. In fact he admits there is still a long way to go to match the polish of OSX and Windows. That seems like a rather modest and realistic claim to me.
/Rant
You see, this is my point. After you post so many bug reports to see them sluffed off, you get just a bit tired of doing it. I must say though, it isn't lost. The lady I will speak about in tomorrows blog came to linux via Ubuntu, found it way too messed up on her machine and was able to discover other linux' via her initial exposure to Linux via Ubuntu. I have a feeling that is going to be a pattern more and more. Those who find it to work...hey that's great. Those who the Buntu's fail by ignoring their bugs ...well there are dozens of others to chose from.
Now how can you argue the value in that? Not the direction the Party Faithful wanted it to go but hey...Linux is Linux, right?...it doesn't HAVE to be Ubuntu.
EDIT: Now in fairness, I have done exactly what Az said should be done, albeit empirically. You should remember that the majority of machines we put out are donated, older equipment. An inordinate amount of them come with the 845 chipset...using the 810 video driver. Ubuntu has ignored the resolution problem in this sector release after release. But here is the kicker...Mint and the fellow that puts out the Ultimate Ubuntu have fixed this. I am running Ultimate Ubuntu 1.8 on a mission-critical machine in the Waco office right now and it is performing with splendid results. It is a machine that will be donated when we run low on machines in that area. If Mint and some guy slogging out an "Ultimate" Ubuntu distro in his basement can fix these problems, why can't a multi-million dollar corporation? I always put mint or ultimate on machines for those who insist on Ubuntu-based distros. I don't get complaint calls anymore by doing so. With the regular ubuntus, I was getting them so you could set your watch to them. Something about the xorg update in teh second round of updates brought the machine to a black terminal screen...X was hosed. It got old quickly.
So Az, I have two years of data showing that there are two distos that work all but flawlessly upon initial install and are still running flawlessly now. I won't name them because then I'll get stuck with the fanboi stigma I gained with pclinuxos...but in honesty I deserved that.
The point here for those who are not getting it is simple. If you are going to be the most popular...do a bit less crowing and alot more bug squashing. You carry the responsibility of Linux becoming mainstream on your backs. 39 months of carrying over the same set of video bugs cannot be justified.
h
Now how can you argue the value in that? Not the direction the Party Faithful wanted it to go but hey...Linux is Linux, right?...it doesn't HAVE to be Ubuntu.
EDIT: Now in fairness, I have done exactly what Az said should be done, albeit empirically. You should remember that the majority of machines we put out are donated, older equipment. An inordinate amount of them come with the 845 chipset...using the 810 video driver. Ubuntu has ignored the resolution problem in this sector release after release. But here is the kicker...Mint and the fellow that puts out the Ultimate Ubuntu have fixed this. I am running Ultimate Ubuntu 1.8 on a mission-critical machine in the Waco office right now and it is performing with splendid results. It is a machine that will be donated when we run low on machines in that area. If Mint and some guy slogging out an "Ultimate" Ubuntu distro in his basement can fix these problems, why can't a multi-million dollar corporation? I always put mint or ultimate on machines for those who insist on Ubuntu-based distros. I don't get complaint calls anymore by doing so. With the regular ubuntus, I was getting them so you could set your watch to them. Something about the xorg update in teh second round of updates brought the machine to a black terminal screen...X was hosed. It got old quickly.
So Az, I have two years of data showing that there are two distos that work all but flawlessly upon initial install and are still running flawlessly now. I won't name them because then I'll get stuck with the fanboi stigma I gained with pclinuxos...but in honesty I deserved that.
The point here for those who are not getting it is simple. If you are going to be the most popular...do a bit less crowing and alot more bug squashing. You carry the responsibility of Linux becoming mainstream on your backs. 39 months of carrying over the same set of video bugs cannot be justified.
h
azerthoth, what is a fanbois? I can't find it in my dictionary. Yep, I use gentoo on my servers, and before that I would run Red Hat as a base and install the server software from rpm's I built from source, so I wouldn't have to deal with the Red Hat slowness on security fixes or issues with the way Red Hat had compiled their rpms.
Carla/jdixon. Do you always use insults in conversations?
I think we should all follow Glyn's advice when he says: " Stop being childish, learn what you can from what you choose to read, and try to contribute with some sort of positive criticism." And I will add to that to just say something positive.
I think we should all follow Glyn's advice when he says: " Stop being childish, learn what you can from what you choose to read, and try to contribute with some sort of positive criticism." And I will add to that to just say something positive.
> Do you always use insults in conversations?
No, and I wasn't using an insult this time, whether you believe it or not. Though they do seem to come up from one side or the other when Ubuntu conversations make the rounds, I'll admit.
However, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Since you're the Ubuntu user of the bunch, tell me why Ubuntu is better than PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, Mepis, Debian, SuSE, Fedora, Gentoo, or Slackware. Why should I use it over the others or, more importantly, why should I recommend it to new users over any of the others?
No, and I wasn't using an insult this time, whether you believe it or not. Though they do seem to come up from one side or the other when Ubuntu conversations make the rounds, I'll admit.
However, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Since you're the Ubuntu user of the bunch, tell me why Ubuntu is better than PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, Mepis, Debian, SuSE, Fedora, Gentoo, or Slackware. Why should I use it over the others or, more importantly, why should I recommend it to new users over any of the others?
> I can't find it in my dictionary.
You using the wrong dictionary then. Try this one: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboi
You using the wrong dictionary then. Try this one: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboi
Quoting:Tracyanne. I was not addressing you. I will say that, I think you are complete wrong about the article.
It is but one article of many, that assumes Linux == Ubuntu. Your mate Glyn is a prime example of an Ubuntu user writing about Ubuntu adnauseum, and, as if Ubuntu and Linux are synonomous. The bloke is supposed to be a Professional Journalist, not a member of Canonicals Marketing department (I'm assuming he;'s not on the Canonical payrole). I started using Linux when Red Hat was THE Linux distro, and I don't recall this sort of fanboish behaviour from Professional Journalists back then.
It's one thing for an ordinary users to rave about their distribution of choice, it's quite another when Professional Journalists do the same thing.
Helios, not arguing a bit. I have 2 distro's that I have found that work OOB almost every single time and while not 100% bug free, when I report them they are always acted upon and researched by the devs within days. One of those two I actually hand out to windows users as gifts if they show any inclination at all to wanting to know more. The other is a geeks distro, and where it works OOB 99% of the time changing it up any can be a lesson in frustration.
The one I use is Sabayon (Gentoo deriv), the one I hand out is the same one Tracyanne hands out alot.
Even so, I still use Debian on my server because out of all the distro's out there it's the one I can be sure of that will still be fully functional until the end of time.
The one I use is Sabayon (Gentoo deriv), the one I hand out is the same one Tracyanne hands out alot.
Even so, I still use Debian on my server because out of all the distro's out there it's the one I can be sure of that will still be fully functional until the end of time.
@pat
I have been using ubuntu for quite sometime now, but their handling of critical bugs has been quite disappointing to say the least. For instance see bugs #147119 and related one #191889 ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/network-manager/ bug/147119]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/network-manager/ b...[/url] [url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/firefox-3.0/ bug/191889]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/firefox-3.0/ bug/1...[/url]) about firefox 3.0 and others going into offline mode which was reported well before hardy release and even a fix was supplied by a user nearly a couple of months before the release! However, hardy went out without it (and still no signs of the fix in the updates) even though a couple of users kept screaming about #191889 being a show-stopper for a large number of users (e.g. all users who use dialup or DSL/pppoe). Or see bug #192382 ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/alsa-driver/ bug/192382]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/alsa-driver/ bug/1...[/url]) which broke sound for a large number of users and was known for more than two months and the fix involved keeping alsa kernel modules and library in sync! But there is no sign of fix for this one too. Similarly see bugs #207072 and related #209520 which were reported well in advance with patches available for quite sometime. Or look at their handling of bug #156720 ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/glibc/ bug/156720]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/glibc/ bug/156720[/url]) in gutsy where the developers ask the users who cannot connect to the internet to apply updates obstinately refusing to provide a patch CD! These are some examples which I have personally encountered and which would be considered critical for any desktop user. In all these instances users have already reported them which ended up being completely ignored. After the experience I have to concur with others that ubuntu folks are "really breaking Debian beyond repair".
Quoting: No different than the "It is broken beyond repair and has been for ever" chorus. How about instead of lambasting Ubuntu, post some bug reports instead.
I have been using ubuntu for quite sometime now, but their handling of critical bugs has been quite disappointing to say the least. For instance see bugs #147119 and related one #191889 ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/network-manager/ bug/147119]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/network-manager/ b...[/url] [url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/firefox-3.0/ bug/191889]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/firefox-3.0/ bug/1...[/url]) about firefox 3.0 and others going into offline mode which was reported well before hardy release and even a fix was supplied by a user nearly a couple of months before the release! However, hardy went out without it (and still no signs of the fix in the updates) even though a couple of users kept screaming about #191889 being a show-stopper for a large number of users (e.g. all users who use dialup or DSL/pppoe). Or see bug #192382 ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/alsa-driver/ bug/192382]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/alsa-driver/ bug/1...[/url]) which broke sound for a large number of users and was known for more than two months and the fix involved keeping alsa kernel modules and library in sync! But there is no sign of fix for this one too. Similarly see bugs #207072 and related #209520 which were reported well in advance with patches available for quite sometime. Or look at their handling of bug #156720 ([url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/glibc/ bug/156720]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/glibc/ bug/156720[/url]) in gutsy where the developers ask the users who cannot connect to the internet to apply updates obstinately refusing to provide a patch CD! These are some examples which I have personally encountered and which would be considered critical for any desktop user. In all these instances users have already reported them which ended up being completely ignored. After the experience I have to concur with others that ubuntu folks are "really breaking Debian beyond repair".
@ Krisum -
Thank you...I was assembling the same sort of post. I actually have a couple of more but there is no sense in piling on...I think you made the point perfectly.
If it works on your machine, well then I suppose all is well in the universe, right? The rest of us can just sod off.
That's the impression I am getting from those who bother to answer my posts concerning bugs anyway.
Great PR plan Buntu.
h
Thank you...I was assembling the same sort of post. I actually have a couple of more but there is no sense in piling on...I think you made the point perfectly.
If it works on your machine, well then I suppose all is well in the universe, right? The rest of us can just sod off.
That's the impression I am getting from those who bother to answer my posts concerning bugs anyway.
Great PR plan Buntu.
h
High fives all around, everybody! You defeated the evil Ubuntu supporters! Victory Victory Victory!
VI is still better!
VI is still better!
Yeah, there must be many more examples. Others will also probably notice the sad comedy in some examples above; like bug #147119 is marked as having "High" importance but still lies unpatched in hardy after more than 8 months of being reported in gutsy. A user also made a working patch for it after about 6 months of being reported. Bug #191889 which is due to #147119 still has "Undecided" importance. Bug #192382 is purely due to the packaging fault of having different versions of the library and the kernel modules for alsa but is still unpatched after more than 3 months. And so on.
@pat
Are you trying to avoid the real issue? FYI, I do use ubuntu and you could even count me as a "supporter". But release after release its getting worse, and the "supporters" should be the ones to raise the issues.
Quoting: High fives all around, everybody! You defeated the evil Ubuntu supporters! Victory Victory Victory!
Are you trying to avoid the real issue? FYI, I do use ubuntu and you could even count me as a "supporter". But release after release its getting worse, and the "supporters" should be the ones to raise the issues.
"I am running Ultimate Ubuntu 1.8 on a mission-critical machine in the Waco office right now and it is performing with splendid results."
Pat, Linux is the backbone of both my business and my passion. Rarely is a man fortunate enough to strive to make a living from his true passion. Do you have any idea the frustration in having customer after customer ask for Ubuntu then when it ultimately fails on their computers, come back to me and complain how badly Linux Sux? I'm not going to allow that to happen any more Pat.
It came to the point where I either found a way to make Ubuntu work on their computers (via mint or Ultimate) or explain to them that Ubuntu is great in spreading the word but lousy at actually working on their computers. As much as I've been labeled as an "Ubuntu hater", nothing could be further from the truth and I would no sooner do the second choice than I would gargle bleach.
My frustration level has reached the point that realizing submitting bug reports isn't getting the job done, maybe public shaming their devs into fixing their distro might. Users of any distro ought to stop taking honest criticism personally...I know, I went through it with PCLinuxOS...and trust me, those people will turn on you in a heartbeat when you offer criticism of their work...and I'm talking about most any Dev Team...I'm not talking about PCLinuxOS in particular.
As users of the distro, we ought to be the loudest of the critics...Ubuntu IS going to carry forth the banner of Linux...it's too late to change that. It's not too late to fix the nagging problems that have plagued them for over two years. It only takes a few "LInux Stinks" headlines from the mainstream media before it becomes truth in the mind of the consumer. We cannot afford to let that happen...we've only got one shot at getting this thing right.
Pat, Linux is the backbone of both my business and my passion. Rarely is a man fortunate enough to strive to make a living from his true passion. Do you have any idea the frustration in having customer after customer ask for Ubuntu then when it ultimately fails on their computers, come back to me and complain how badly Linux Sux? I'm not going to allow that to happen any more Pat.
It came to the point where I either found a way to make Ubuntu work on their computers (via mint or Ultimate) or explain to them that Ubuntu is great in spreading the word but lousy at actually working on their computers. As much as I've been labeled as an "Ubuntu hater", nothing could be further from the truth and I would no sooner do the second choice than I would gargle bleach.
My frustration level has reached the point that realizing submitting bug reports isn't getting the job done, maybe public shaming their devs into fixing their distro might. Users of any distro ought to stop taking honest criticism personally...I know, I went through it with PCLinuxOS...and trust me, those people will turn on you in a heartbeat when you offer criticism of their work...and I'm talking about most any Dev Team...I'm not talking about PCLinuxOS in particular.
As users of the distro, we ought to be the loudest of the critics...Ubuntu IS going to carry forth the banner of Linux...it's too late to change that. It's not too late to fix the nagging problems that have plagued them for over two years. It only takes a few "LInux Stinks" headlines from the mainstream media before it becomes truth in the mind of the consumer. We cannot afford to let that happen...we've only got one shot at getting this thing right.
@pat
Instead of treating this as some sort of pissing up the wall contest, maybe you would be better off to try to learn something from this. Try, actually reading the comments constructively, rather than seeing it as some sort of personal attack.
On the other hand, you might like to explain just what it is about the comments that are not legitimate. Of course you could act like your distribution of choice, and be immature.
Quoting:High fives all around, everybody! You defeated the evil Ubuntu supporters! Victory Victory Victory!
Instead of treating this as some sort of pissing up the wall contest, maybe you would be better off to try to learn something from this. Try, actually reading the comments constructively, rather than seeing it as some sort of personal attack.
On the other hand, you might like to explain just what it is about the comments that are not legitimate. Of course you could act like your distribution of choice, and be immature.
I'll let you know if my distribution of choice is immature after I finish my Linux Distro Animation Machine. It will be a bit, haven't had a good thunderstorm here at the castle lately. Bette prepare the villagers just in case something goes wrong.
@ Pat - LWY
I've sent Igor around to confiscate all the pitchforks and smoldering torches. That should help.
I've sent Igor around to confiscate all the pitchforks and smoldering torches. That should help.
> I've sent Igor ...
I suspect that Pat could use Inga's help more. This whole bit is a comedy routine after all.
I suspect that Pat could use Inga's help more. This whole bit is a comedy routine after all.
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Also, can you fill us in on Canonical's relentless hype and how it is untrue?
Tracyanne. I was not addressing you. I will say that, I think you are complete wrong about the article.
You will note I am not a LJ subscriber. I stopped subscribing when there articles turned from being more technical to being more advertising.