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Opinion: Sexism is Alive and Well in Linux/FOSS
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Comments (129)
I really dont get it. :-?
28 earlier comments in the full thread.
Sander ..., Charlotte ...
Hmmm. You do have a girlfriend, right? There seems to be some counter intuitive reporting going on here. Sander is Charlotte, but only some of the time, because he screws up his system routinely. [Likely story, for a successful computer consultant / programmer.]
Charlotte, ah I mean Sander, you stand accused of gross dissembling while NOT claiming you are writing fiction, thus doing grievous harm to another LXer's tall tales. Since I am that other one being harmed, I demand compensation. At minimum you must stop creating stories of dubious merit, an activity I excel at, and promise hence forth to follow the straight and narrow path of societal propriety. If you agree there will be no need of financial settlement, fo me your word will suffice.
However, I cannot completely disregard the limited possibility your tale may be factually based. Therefore, I will take upon the responsibility of clearing your name, if that is possible. Nonetheless, I require absolute proof and a DNA sample passing through too many hands will not suffice.
So to clear your name I require your complete medical and travel records for the past ten years, as a cross check to be certain you did not patronize institutions that specialized in anatomical alterations. Should your records clear you of that hurdle, I will still need further evidence.
I will need a private phone number where your purported girl friend and I can converse for extended periods without the threats of interruption or of being over heard.
Finally, at my own expense - if there has been no chicanery, I will rendezvous with my love ... ah I mean yours. To perform my last exercise to cheerfully clear your name on LXer. I cannot tell you how happy I will be to do this service* for you.
Your Buddy Txt.
* Please tell me you do not cross dress.
Hmmm. You do have a girlfriend, right? There seems to be some counter intuitive reporting going on here. Sander is Charlotte, but only some of the time, because he screws up his system routinely. [Likely story, for a successful computer consultant / programmer.]
Charlotte, ah I mean Sander, you stand accused of gross dissembling while NOT claiming you are writing fiction, thus doing grievous harm to another LXer's tall tales. Since I am that other one being harmed, I demand compensation. At minimum you must stop creating stories of dubious merit, an activity I excel at, and promise hence forth to follow the straight and narrow path of societal propriety. If you agree there will be no need of financial settlement, fo me your word will suffice.
However, I cannot completely disregard the limited possibility your tale may be factually based. Therefore, I will take upon the responsibility of clearing your name, if that is possible. Nonetheless, I require absolute proof and a DNA sample passing through too many hands will not suffice.
So to clear your name I require your complete medical and travel records for the past ten years, as a cross check to be certain you did not patronize institutions that specialized in anatomical alterations. Should your records clear you of that hurdle, I will still need further evidence.
I will need a private phone number where your purported girl friend and I can converse for extended periods without the threats of interruption or of being over heard.
Finally, at my own expense - if there has been no chicanery, I will rendezvous with my love ... ah I mean yours. To perform my last exercise to cheerfully clear your name on LXer. I cannot tell you how happy I will be to do this service* for you.
Your Buddy Txt.
* Please tell me you do not cross dress.
The "I don't see it" response is common and predictable. It's like the "It works for me!" school of tech support, where something is broken and you call support, and they inform you that they don't have the same problem, or other users are not reporting the same problem, so perhaps it isn't really a problem. Yay, close ticket all happy now. As the article says, a culture of denial; don't think uncomfortable thoughts, just dismiss them.
Anyone who is genuinely interested in the issue can find plenty of reading online, and might even attempt the bold step of being more observant in everyday life, and maybe even listening to some actual women. Though that will have limited effectiveness for folks who can't recognize their own sexist beliefs. It's partly true, as Bob said, that it's symptomatic of a larger stupidity. And it is completely true that it is widespread and a disease all its own.
Anyone who is genuinely interested in the issue can find plenty of reading online, and might even attempt the bold step of being more observant in everyday life, and maybe even listening to some actual women. Though that will have limited effectiveness for folks who can't recognize their own sexist beliefs. It's partly true, as Bob said, that it's symptomatic of a larger stupidity. And it is completely true that it is widespread and a disease all its own.
Sexism, sexist remarks, stupid arrogance from the male gender, does happen. It has happened to me, but... never on a Linux board, and rarely on any other Computer/software related board, and when it has happened I have quickly gained a reputation for having better wittier comebacks that usually leave the perpetrator wishing they hadn't.
The first time it happened was back in the late 90s on a Microsoft oriented Software board, I was trying to find out how to do some stuff with DDE, some jerk with a South American address (he published the city) suggested I fly on over so we could get together... you know what I mean.
I've had death threats on social sites when I put the jerk down, and "paraded" him "naked" in front of everyone. About 3 I think.... I'm still here waiting.
To some extent the put down, "you need to grow a tougher skin" is good advice. That is pretty much the rational behind "Take back the streets". But there is also a very real social expectation that women.. girls not be pushy (and that in itself is such a sexist concept, as boys are not considered pushy, but instead assertive).
Unfortunately, in order to get a culture that isn't sexist, that has a good gender balance, we do need to be assertive, and learn to deal with jerks on terms that make jerks think twice before they treat us to some more of their jerkiness . It's not easy, I know, but on the other hand this is the Internet, and the other person isn't actually sitting in your living room.
The first time it happened was back in the late 90s on a Microsoft oriented Software board, I was trying to find out how to do some stuff with DDE, some jerk with a South American address (he published the city) suggested I fly on over so we could get together... you know what I mean.
I've had death threats on social sites when I put the jerk down, and "paraded" him "naked" in front of everyone. About 3 I think.... I'm still here waiting.
To some extent the put down, "you need to grow a tougher skin" is good advice. That is pretty much the rational behind "Take back the streets". But there is also a very real social expectation that women.. girls not be pushy (and that in itself is such a sexist concept, as boys are not considered pushy, but instead assertive).
Unfortunately, in order to get a culture that isn't sexist, that has a good gender balance, we do need to be assertive, and learn to deal with jerks on terms that make jerks think twice before they treat us to some more of their jerkiness . It's not easy, I know, but on the other hand this is the Internet, and the other person isn't actually sitting in your living room.
Quoting:As the article says, a culture of denial; don't think uncomfortable thoughts, just dismiss them.
If one just never saw a blue car, it doesn't mean one denies or dismisses their existence. That would be putting words at least in my mouth (because I'm one of those not having seen sexist remarks in the forums I visit).
And some are oblivious to the blue car until it runs over them.
I am not blind to sexism. I have seen it in different spheres. Those behind the sexism are an equal ratio of women and men (no sexism there!).
It is good if u highlight valid incidents of sexism, but many cases i hav been reading lately are probably misinterpreted facts, especially the discussion over Stallman's statements.
Just as sexism does no good, militant anti-sexism does no good either. The direct attacks on RMS are obviously counter-productive. It is imperative that the anti-sexism lobby validate their claims and suggest solutions rather than just shout out accusations.
It is good if u highlight valid incidents of sexism, but many cases i hav been reading lately are probably misinterpreted facts, especially the discussion over Stallman's statements.
Just as sexism does no good, militant anti-sexism does no good either. The direct attacks on RMS are obviously counter-productive. It is imperative that the anti-sexism lobby validate their claims and suggest solutions rather than just shout out accusations.
Microbiologist:
Wouldn't the "solution" simply be not to make sexist jokes? Not to use pornographic material in your slides for your FLOSS presentation? And not to insult women saying that women are inherently inferior to men wrt computing on public mailing-lists?
I mean, this isn't rocket science (although I *do* have a degree in that ;-)
Wouldn't the "solution" simply be not to make sexist jokes? Not to use pornographic material in your slides for your FLOSS presentation? And not to insult women saying that women are inherently inferior to men wrt computing on public mailing-lists?
I mean, this isn't rocket science (although I *do* have a degree in that ;-)
Microbiologist, anyone who is genuinely interested about the issue and doesn't just want to hand-wave it away will find plenty of material already available: analyses of the issues, plenty of real-life horror stories, and plenty of ideas for how to fix it. Maybe the real problem is militant dishonesty. Like ignoring the entire rest of the article that is not about RMS. Bruce's article contains a good bit of information and should have you thinking instead of dismissing.
BTW, what validation are you offering for your claims?
Yes I'm cheesed, this thread has a lot of the same junk we've been dealing with since forever. Let's make a deal-- all of you who are not really interested in this problem, who are so uncomfortable with it that you are unwilling to face it, just keep out of the way of the folks who are trying to do something about it. "I don't see it!" So what? Who cares? We live it. It's painful and obnoxious. It's like you're saying that you know our own experiences better than we do.
This speaks to two core and important issues: the health of FOSS, and even more important, basic decency to other people. Try listening and thinking. Don't talk, because it's like hearing Microsoft reps yakking how secure Windows is. It doesn't fool anyone who knows better.
Yeah I know, I'm not being nice. Girls are supposed to be nice. Sorry!*
*Not really sorry.
BTW, what validation are you offering for your claims?
Yes I'm cheesed, this thread has a lot of the same junk we've been dealing with since forever. Let's make a deal-- all of you who are not really interested in this problem, who are so uncomfortable with it that you are unwilling to face it, just keep out of the way of the folks who are trying to do something about it. "I don't see it!" So what? Who cares? We live it. It's painful and obnoxious. It's like you're saying that you know our own experiences better than we do.
This speaks to two core and important issues: the health of FOSS, and even more important, basic decency to other people. Try listening and thinking. Don't talk, because it's like hearing Microsoft reps yakking how secure Windows is. It doesn't fool anyone who knows better.
Yeah I know, I'm not being nice. Girls are supposed to be nice. Sorry!*
*Not really sorry.
> Anyone who is genuinely interested in the issue can find plenty of reading online...
Of course, many men not being interested in the issue is part of the problem. :(
Of course, many men not being interested in the issue is part of the problem. :(
Looks to me like there is plenty of interest. Just not in taking it seriously. Everyone has to pick their own battles and I don't expect everyone to hop up and down and take up arms on the issue of sexism in FOSS. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" is good enough.
> "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" is good enough..
I try to stay out of the way, since as far as I can tell what you're fighting is an innate human characteristic, and I've never seen the point in fighting human nature.
I try to stay out of the way, since as far as I can tell what you're fighting is an innate human characteristic, and I've never seen the point in fighting human nature.
Quoting:Looks to me like there is plenty of interest. Just not in taking it seriously.
I think many of those who deny that sexism exists or react negatively to articles like this do take it seriously. They see feminism or broader equality as a threat. Either they are afraid they are somehow going to be excluded or discriminated against or else they are going to have more competition. It's a form of insecurity that manifests itself as lashing out against those who write things like what Bruce Byfield wrote in the article.
The trick is, and this seems to work well with our project, is not to make a special exception for the out of the ordinary, but to accept it at face value and move on. The second step is to take anyone who is intolerant, let them know that they are free to feel what they want, but they minute they start spouting their particular prejudice they will be made most unwelcome and/or forcibly ejected from the conversations. It's a healthy attitude and a positive one, it's not that we don't want people helping or enjoying or project, but if you are intolerant, we are perfectly fine with telling someone we don't particularly want or need them.
jdixon made some interesting points worth discussing:
Agreed. I'd add that women who are disinterested are also part of the problem. Change doesn't happen on its own.
I'm sure the same could be said of any intolerance to someone who is different in some way. The fact is that in terms of racism, women's rights, and the rights of all sorts of minorities that, at least in the United States, there has been huge and measurable progress in all of these areas.
100 years ago women didn't have the right to vote. 60 years ago a woman couldn't get credit in their own name and discrimination in hiring was not only legal, it was expected and the norm. There has been huge progress in IT as well. FOSS is sadly far behind the rest of IT which was Bruce Byfield's main point.
When I lived in San Francisco I got to hear Dr. Moira Gunn speak at a Webgrrls chapter meeting back in 1997 or so. She talked about what she was up against as a female physicist who received her PhD in 1970 and then went to work on national defense projects. It not only demonstrated how far we have come but also how much we can overcome if we work hard enough and have the ability. It was one of the most inspirational talks I have ever heard.
Human nature or not each and every one of us can make a difference. The problems may not be solved in our lifetimes or ever. Things can get better and each and every one of us can make a difference if we choose to regardless of our gender.
Quoting:Of course, many men not being interested in the issue is part of the problem. :(
Agreed. I'd add that women who are disinterested are also part of the problem. Change doesn't happen on its own.
Quoting:I try to stay out of the way, since as far as I can tell what you're fighting is an innate human characteristic, and I've never seen the point in fighting human nature.
I'm sure the same could be said of any intolerance to someone who is different in some way. The fact is that in terms of racism, women's rights, and the rights of all sorts of minorities that, at least in the United States, there has been huge and measurable progress in all of these areas.
100 years ago women didn't have the right to vote. 60 years ago a woman couldn't get credit in their own name and discrimination in hiring was not only legal, it was expected and the norm. There has been huge progress in IT as well. FOSS is sadly far behind the rest of IT which was Bruce Byfield's main point.
When I lived in San Francisco I got to hear Dr. Moira Gunn speak at a Webgrrls chapter meeting back in 1997 or so. She talked about what she was up against as a female physicist who received her PhD in 1970 and then went to work on national defense projects. It not only demonstrated how far we have come but also how much we can overcome if we work hard enough and have the ability. It was one of the most inspirational talks I have ever heard.
Human nature or not each and every one of us can make a difference. The problems may not be solved in our lifetimes or ever. Things can get better and each and every one of us can make a difference if we choose to regardless of our gender.
FWIW:
The OhioLinuxFest next weekend will include a workshop on Diversity In Open Source:
http://www.ohiolinux.org/dios
The OhioLinuxFest next weekend will include a workshop on Diversity In Open Source:
http://www.ohiolinux.org/dios
Say what?
Carla schroeder's article is exactly what i wanted to see. I am happy to have been enlightened by it.
It is not possible to treat both sexes identically, u cant talk the same way to a man that u talk to a woman. But equal credit should be given for equal contribution.
And it is important that plain indecency and wilful suppression of human rights be dealt with separately, and not be clubbed together. The latter is far more serious and requires a different solution than the former.
Most men in an environment with male majority are prone to use obscene language and potentially offensive comparisons, whereas not all consciously contrive to suppress female involvement in that sphere. The real perpetrators gain a shield if their wrongdoings are clubbed with the general offenses of the majority.
I, for one believe that comparisons in any field not related to internal plumbing, should depend only on the skill level in that field, nothing else.
It is not possible to treat both sexes identically, u cant talk the same way to a man that u talk to a woman. But equal credit should be given for equal contribution.
And it is important that plain indecency and wilful suppression of human rights be dealt with separately, and not be clubbed together. The latter is far more serious and requires a different solution than the former.
Most men in an environment with male majority are prone to use obscene language and potentially offensive comparisons, whereas not all consciously contrive to suppress female involvement in that sphere. The real perpetrators gain a shield if their wrongdoings are clubbed with the general offenses of the majority.
I, for one believe that comparisons in any field not related to internal plumbing, should depend only on the skill level in that field, nothing else.
> Most men in an environment with male majority are prone to use obscene language and potentially offensive comparisons,
A situation in which I am glad to be one of the minority.
One of the Linux podcast shows, out of England, is so laced with profanity that I didn't even finish one show.
Bah. A telling lack of vocabulary.
A situation in which I am glad to be one of the minority.
One of the Linux podcast shows, out of England, is so laced with profanity that I didn't even finish one show.
Bah. A telling lack of vocabulary.
Quoting:A telling lack of vocabulary.Yes. How many of us have heard of someone who could insult you for an entire half-hour, and never use the same insult twice?
"Yes. How many of us have heard of someone who could insult you for an entire half-hour, and never use the same insult twice?"
I recall that the drill seargent used as the source for "Full Metal Jacket" was recorded for 20 minutes of "verbal private abuse" without repeating himself.
Sadly, my vocabulary is no where near that extensive. I tend to find the one word that sums up what I think of someone's actions, attitudes or whatever, then use it.
One of the people in a half-hour project meeting back in 2002 used the words "you know" 132 times, and that's leaving out when he used them correctly in a sentence. Just the, you know, asides. An otherwise highly educated and intelligent person, but impossible to listen to without serious frustration.
I recall that the drill seargent used as the source for "Full Metal Jacket" was recorded for 20 minutes of "verbal private abuse" without repeating himself.
Sadly, my vocabulary is no where near that extensive. I tend to find the one word that sums up what I think of someone's actions, attitudes or whatever, then use it.
One of the people in a half-hour project meeting back in 2002 used the words "you know" 132 times, and that's leaving out when he used them correctly in a sentence. Just the, you know, asides. An otherwise highly educated and intelligent person, but impossible to listen to without serious frustration.
In Response to: Sexism is Alive and Well in Linux/FOSS
49 earlier comments in the full thread.
But TC, that wasn't my question. I know you are doing something about it. The problem is, if what you are saying about other women and FOSS is correct (and I didn't say that to doubt you, but to parenthesis the following), then they are not going to do anything about it, because they have already turned away from involvement with FOSS, because of the very things you are stating as being the problem.
So the question is given that they are disenfranchised, or, at least, feel disenfranchised. How does one get them back. At the moment, to me, it looks like a chicken and egg issue. Women, in general, won't get involved in FOSS because they feel disenfranchised, but until more women do become more involved, I can't see it changing.
So, given that there are apparently so many in FOSS, the majority, I'm given to believe, that do not see a problem, and so are not going to do anything to fix it, or change, how do you propose the situation be fixed. Since those who don't see that there is a problem are not about to change on your, or anyone else's, say so, and those who see FOSS as uninviting aren't about to get involved.
So the question is given that they are disenfranchised, or, at least, feel disenfranchised. How does one get them back. At the moment, to me, it looks like a chicken and egg issue. Women, in general, won't get involved in FOSS because they feel disenfranchised, but until more women do become more involved, I can't see it changing.
So, given that there are apparently so many in FOSS, the majority, I'm given to believe, that do not see a problem, and so are not going to do anything to fix it, or change, how do you propose the situation be fixed. Since those who don't see that there is a problem are not about to change on your, or anyone else's, say so, and those who see FOSS as uninviting aren't about to get involved.
TA, part 2 this friday talks about what to do. Role models and encouragement are the basic tactics; for example groups like Ubuntu Women and Debian Women help new women contributors get over the initial hurdles and provide ongoing support. Two things we have learned at Linuxchix that make a big difference: showing that "you are not alone", and providing visible role models. Feeling alone and isolated is probably the biggest deterrent. The FLOSSPOLs study was in 2004, and I suspect that thanks to Ubuntu there is increased women participation.
The real solution is very simple: people shouldn't be asshats to each other, and should understand the difference between professional and private behaviors. Of course description is always easier than implementation :) Valerie Aurora said something once along the lines of "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out.
The real solution is very simple: people shouldn't be asshats to each other, and should understand the difference between professional and private behaviors. Of course description is always easier than implementation :) Valerie Aurora said something once along the lines of "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out.
> "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you."
Rather, it is perfectly legitimate to expect people to behave decently. If they don't, then don't associate with them.
I've found that trying to change other people to fit my preferences is futile, at best.
Life isn't fair. So be fair, and deal only with people who also deal fairly.
> I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out.
As if only women get crud flung at them? I've met a lot of women who themselves are very good at slinging crud, but because they're women I'm expected to "take whatever crud is dished out." Take it like a man, I'm told.
My only objection is to individuals (male, female, green, whatever) who think that:
1) everyone has to take their crud just because they're (male, female, green).
or
2) life is so unfair just because they're (male, female, green, whatever).
The worst are those who declare endlessly just how unfair their life is, and how awful everyone else is, and how everyone has to take whatever crud they fling. The combination platter, 1 and 2.
Bullies, for short, male, female, green, whatever. I don't expect them to change to suit my preferences, I just let them go down their own self-destructive paths.
Rather, it is perfectly legitimate to expect people to behave decently. If they don't, then don't associate with them.
I've found that trying to change other people to fit my preferences is futile, at best.
Life isn't fair. So be fair, and deal only with people who also deal fairly.
> I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out.
As if only women get crud flung at them? I've met a lot of women who themselves are very good at slinging crud, but because they're women I'm expected to "take whatever crud is dished out." Take it like a man, I'm told.
My only objection is to individuals (male, female, green, whatever) who think that:
1) everyone has to take their crud just because they're (male, female, green).
or
2) life is so unfair just because they're (male, female, green, whatever).
The worst are those who declare endlessly just how unfair their life is, and how awful everyone else is, and how everyone has to take whatever crud they fling. The combination platter, 1 and 2.
Bullies, for short, male, female, green, whatever. I don't expect them to change to suit my preferences, I just let them go down their own self-destructive paths.
TC its a good quote, especially when it can be used in either direction in the discussion. To be honest, the only person that anyone has control of is themselves, either in their thoughts and actions or their associations. I choose not to associate with people who see prejudice in any form as a logical thought process, that I have offended a few people by calling them bigots and walking away is a given, but the offense was theirs to take or leave.
In other words, you find someone offensive and you can make them leave, do so. If you cant make the other person leave, then you leave. Dont insist that they change .. you dont have that right. There is never the option to not leaving the offensive person, but enforcing your world view upon them is just the same as them forcing their opinions on you ... and just as offensive.
In other words, you find someone offensive and you can make them leave, do so. If you cant make the other person leave, then you leave. Dont insist that they change .. you dont have that right. There is never the option to not leaving the offensive person, but enforcing your world view upon them is just the same as them forcing their opinions on you ... and just as offensive.
Quoting:Valerie Aurora said something once along the lines of "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out.
This is a sentiment I agree with. What I'm not sure about is, how what is apparently the majority of FOSS can be expected to change if women never participate as part of the main stream but instead create women only ghettos.
> "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you."
Perfectly legitimate, yes. Effective, probably not. People don't tend to change just because someone they hardly know thinks they should. Someone they know and respect is another matter.
Perfectly legitimate, yes. Effective, probably not. People don't tend to change just because someone they hardly know thinks they should. Someone they know and respect is another matter.
TA, if you're referring to Ubuntu Women, Debian Women, and similar projects as women-only ghettos you are misunderstanding. They're help and support, not 'ghettos'.
But in what way do they change what is apparently the dominant metric?
If there is indeed rampant sexism in FOSS, as is apparently the case, then the groups like Ubuntu Women, Debian Women don't seem to be changing that. Because we seems to get a lot of rhetoric about sexism and changing it, but nothing seems, apparently, to change, as just as the last lot of rhetoric and noise about sexism dies down another lot rears it head, and the arguments start again.
And if as Hans Beezmer says, there isn't any then there really isn't any need for the Women only groups.
So from where I'm sitting, such groups look more like self imposed ghettos, that are ineffective at changing what is apparently the status quo.
And to be honest I haven't come across anything that I would flag as sexist. Now that may be the Rhino hide you refer to, and that may actually be the case, because my response would be to tell the perpetrator to go dip his right eye in cocky cack and then promptly forget about it.
If there is indeed rampant sexism in FOSS, as is apparently the case, then the groups like Ubuntu Women, Debian Women don't seem to be changing that. Because we seems to get a lot of rhetoric about sexism and changing it, but nothing seems, apparently, to change, as just as the last lot of rhetoric and noise about sexism dies down another lot rears it head, and the arguments start again.
And if as Hans Beezmer says, there isn't any then there really isn't any need for the Women only groups.
So from where I'm sitting, such groups look more like self imposed ghettos, that are ineffective at changing what is apparently the status quo.
And to be honest I haven't come across anything that I would flag as sexist. Now that may be the Rhino hide you refer to, and that may actually be the case, because my response would be to tell the perpetrator to go dip his right eye in cocky cack and then promptly forget about it.
Sigh. TA, if you want to throw up your hands and call it hopeless, be my guest.
Carla. I'm not calling anything hopeless.
I'm merely stating what I see.
Given that the issue of sexism keeps on being brought up, is argued over with intractable, so it seems, sides shouting 'I'm right you're Wrong" on a seemingly regular basis, with apparently no change at all in the General culture. I just don't see how women only groups are contributing to change in the general culture, or indeed given history, how they are going to.
Edit, removedi as it confuses my point
I'm merely stating what I see.
Given that the issue of sexism keeps on being brought up, is argued over with intractable, so it seems, sides shouting 'I'm right you're Wrong" on a seemingly regular basis, with apparently no change at all in the General culture. I just don't see how women only groups are contributing to change in the general culture, or indeed given history, how they are going to.
Edit, removedi as it confuses my point
I remember several times over the years that sexism in FOSS has been brought up. On several occasions it was argued that Women only groups would raise the stanard of personal interaction in FOSS communities, and I've seen several groups form, and I'm even a member of One or two, LinuxChix, and I think the Aussie chapter, I get emails from LinuxChix Aus anyway.
Clearly these women only groups can't be changing the culture of FOSS, nor for that matter can they be getting more women involved in FOSS (we're told repeatedly that women are put off by FOSS culture and won't get involved, or leave, because of it). They can't possibly be making any difference, because once again we are being told that the percentage of women in FOSS is woefully tiny, and that women are [still] being turned off and away, and the major reason for this is the general culture of FOSS, which is blokey, and generally sleazy.
Yet once again the call has gone out for the formation of more womens only groups, as [this time] such groups will be the salvation of FOSS culture, they'll make the sleazy blokes rethink how they interact with women, and other people within FOSS, in general.
I don't for the life of me see how this works, as clearly it hasn't in the past. If it had, there would be no need to once again stare into the wasteland that is apparently FOSS culture, and pronounce it horrid. So given that it is so bad, and we've been building womens only groups for several years now, apparently without it making one iota of difference, to the general culture of FOSS, which we are told is horridly sexist, how in the world is it going to work in the future?
Clearly these women only groups can't be changing the culture of FOSS, nor for that matter can they be getting more women involved in FOSS (we're told repeatedly that women are put off by FOSS culture and won't get involved, or leave, because of it). They can't possibly be making any difference, because once again we are being told that the percentage of women in FOSS is woefully tiny, and that women are [still] being turned off and away, and the major reason for this is the general culture of FOSS, which is blokey, and generally sleazy.
Yet once again the call has gone out for the formation of more womens only groups, as [this time] such groups will be the salvation of FOSS culture, they'll make the sleazy blokes rethink how they interact with women, and other people within FOSS, in general.
I don't for the life of me see how this works, as clearly it hasn't in the past. If it had, there would be no need to once again stare into the wasteland that is apparently FOSS culture, and pronounce it horrid. So given that it is so bad, and we've been building womens only groups for several years now, apparently without it making one iota of difference, to the general culture of FOSS, which we are told is horridly sexist, how in the world is it going to work in the future?
> If there is indeed rampant sexism in FOSS...
It's not rampant. But it does exist. The problem has both depth (in that it is deeply embedded in places) and breadth (in that it is widespread). But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem. It's not an easy problem to solve, any more than it was (and to a certain extent, still is) in engineering.
It's not rampant. But it does exist. The problem has both depth (in that it is deeply embedded in places) and breadth (in that it is widespread). But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem. It's not an easy problem to solve, any more than it was (and to a certain extent, still is) in engineering.
@tracyanne
> Yet once again the call has gone out for the formation of more womens only groups, as [this time] such groups
> will be the salvation of FOSS culture, they'll make the sleazy blokes rethink how they interact with women, and
> other people within FOSS, in general.
I see the same problem and the FOSS polls report (which seems to have caused this all) seems the same problem. Of the tiny minority of women that participate in FOSS, an even tinier percentage is actually coding. Most are participating in making documentation, bugreports, sounds, graphics and the lot.
If you really want to start a "womens only" club, you have to have a significant number of people who actually code. It would be most interesting to see what would happen. The documentation of most FOSS projects is abysmal ("the code is clear enough, we got a man page and then there is the forum").
I'm disappointed in the report that it gives women so few pointers in which they can make their participation larger themselves, I agree with you on that.
Hans Bezemer
I see the same problem and the FOSS polls report (which seems to have caused this all) seems the same problem. Of the tiny minority of women that participate in FOSS, an even tinier percentage is actually coding. Most are participating in making documentation, bugreports, sounds, graphics and the lot.
If you really want to start a "womens only" club, you have to have a significant number of people who actually code. It would be most interesting to see what would happen. The documentation of most FOSS projects is abysmal ("the code is clear enough, we got a man page and then there is the forum").
I'm disappointed in the report that it gives women so few pointers in which they can make their participation larger themselves, I agree with you on that.
Hans Bezemer
> But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem.
Agreed.
How to tell that small minority to move on?
I don't have that answer, so I myself move on and try to provide a good example.
Agreed.
How to tell that small minority to move on?
I don't have that answer, so I myself move on and try to provide a good example.
Quoting:It's not rampant. But it does exist.. The problem has both depth (in that it is deeply embedded in places) and breadth.(in that it is widespread). But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem.
That could as easily be a description of society in general, does anyone find that surprising?
On the other hand if it is small minorities, than those minorities can be weeded out. All it takes is some backbone on the part of project leaders and Forum moderators, unless it's the Project leaders and Forum moderators who are the problem.
I'd suggest that rather than building lots of walled gardens, ghettos, that the non sleaze bags among us actively encourage women to join their projects, and jump on any member of their project who proves to to be a sleaze bag.
But I think that the biggest contributing factor to the low numbers o women contributing to FOSS has nothing to do with sexism or sleazy behaviour among a minority. My opinion is that women are not flocking in droves to contribute to FOSS because FOSS is flying beneath their radar, as it flies beneath most people's radar.
The problem is marketing.
I know blokes that could contribute, but don't, they don't because they think it's all about coding, and they aren't coders.
@tracyanne
I agree with you in that projectleaders and Forum moderators are part of the solution, but life is sometimes not that easy. What if the guy in question is a major force within a project? Would you kick 'em out and hamper or endanger the project? What if the guy in question IS the projectleader?
An ethical dilemma. Would you quit using the USB subsystem if (for example) you would find out the projectleader is doesn't behave properly? And if, would it make any difference? Most people know about MS business practices, but keep on using Windows. People happily buy (cheap) articles although it was child labor in 3rd world countries that produced them.
Still, I also would agree there that minimizing and marginalizing certain people would diminish the problem. I'd like to add that - like many major projects - I would not restrict it to sexist remarks, but conduct in general. Also outside the community.
Hans Bezemer
An ethical dilemma. Would you quit using the USB subsystem if (for example) you would find out the projectleader is doesn't behave properly? And if, would it make any difference? Most people know about MS business practices, but keep on using Windows. People happily buy (cheap) articles although it was child labor in 3rd world countries that produced them.
Still, I also would agree there that minimizing and marginalizing certain people would diminish the problem. I'd like to add that - like many major projects - I would not restrict it to sexist remarks, but conduct in general. Also outside the community.
Hans Bezemer
Hans I don't think the problem is simple or that it can be solved simply. on the other hand I don't think it's as bad or as widespread as some would have it. But more importantly I don't see walled gardens, ghettos, as the way to bring about change, if indeed the problem is as bad as the walled garden proponents claim.
The only person it would make any difference to would be me, by inconveniencing me. We're talking about Free Open Source Software here. FOSS projects can continue for ever with only the developers using the software. Not that my boycotting Proprietary Software has actually made any difference ether. Microsoft continues to create pretend security, even though I refuse to buy their product, Symantic still makes it's products that provide windows users with dubuious security, even though I never use their products. Nor has it made any difference to Nike that I refuse to buy their products, or MacDonalds, or any other Product I don't buy for various reasons.
I don't see it as a dilemma, I'd carry on using it. I might encourage someone capable of doing so to Fork the project, if it looked practical to do so. But the reality of the situation is that I'm not about to make my computer unusable on principle.
Quoting:An ethical dilemma. Would you quit using the USB subsystem if (for example) you would find out the projectleader is doesn't behave properly?
The only person it would make any difference to would be me, by inconveniencing me. We're talking about Free Open Source Software here. FOSS projects can continue for ever with only the developers using the software. Not that my boycotting Proprietary Software has actually made any difference ether. Microsoft continues to create pretend security, even though I refuse to buy their product, Symantic still makes it's products that provide windows users with dubuious security, even though I never use their products. Nor has it made any difference to Nike that I refuse to buy their products, or MacDonalds, or any other Product I don't buy for various reasons.
I don't see it as a dilemma, I'd carry on using it. I might encourage someone capable of doing so to Fork the project, if it looked practical to do so. But the reality of the situation is that I'm not about to make my computer unusable on principle.
TheBeez,
All conjecture, where are your statistics? Apply the same criteria to yourself as you demand of others, until then a bit a silence would be more appropriate.
YBT
All conjecture, where are your statistics? Apply the same criteria to yourself as you demand of others, until then a bit a silence would be more appropriate.
YBT
@TxtEdMacs
I'm so very happy that you're trying to help me here. Exactly what statistics do you want? In short, what is the hypothesis you want me to test?
So, which set of questions would be needed in order to get some data that would validate or invalidate that hypothesis? Furthermore, what kind of interest group do you want to target (selection)? How are we going to select those people? How large is this group (population size)? What is the confidence level you want to apply? What the confidence interval required? What anomalies need to be corrected? How are we to correct these anomalies?
Come back when you have the answer.
Hans Bezemer
So, which set of questions would be needed in order to get some data that would validate or invalidate that hypothesis? Furthermore, what kind of interest group do you want to target (selection)? How are we going to select those people? How large is this group (population size)? What is the confidence level you want to apply? What the confidence interval required? What anomalies need to be corrected? How are we to correct these anomalies?
Come back when you have the answer.
Hans Bezemer
/me hands out whips to the monkeys and points them at the carrion equine.
Open Source Movie Time.
"Linux Needs Women"
Are you providing a testing thread for the new moderation scheme?
LOL
LOL
Well, it seems just a restatement of, "F/OSS developers and community must stop tolerating sexism in order to foster a more supportive community where female developers and users can find themselves accepted as individuals, instead of being driven off by boorish attitudes and deliberate blindness to the problems of intolerance and the gross under-representation of the gender that makes up 50+% of the population."
How about, "Dudes, get a clue. Be polite and considerate of you're never going to get a girlfriend."?
I believe a multi-pronged approach is best. I would rather educate through humor than get all dour and morose and drive away the people who use F/OSS because it's fun.
How about, "Dudes, get a clue. Be polite and considerate of you're never going to get a girlfriend."?
I believe a multi-pronged approach is best. I would rather educate through humor than get all dour and morose and drive away the people who use F/OSS because it's fun.
Oh, so now it's about getting girlfriends? How enlightened!
Or ex-wife, in my case.
> Oh, so now it's about getting girlfriends?
There is no stronger motivation in a young male than that.
Cue that instinct, and they learn very quickly.
Caitlyn's example was the benefit of using the corporate sword of Damocles in order to cut a bunch of isms in the bud and thereby provide an "inclusive" workplace. But F/OSS doesn't have the ability to fire anyone.
We must persuade, rather than threaten.
> How enlightened!
I've said I was a dinosaur, which I guess means to some people that I get my girlfriends with a club. I also prefer subnetting and routing to VPNs.
There is no stronger motivation in a young male than that.
Cue that instinct, and they learn very quickly.
Caitlyn's example was the benefit of using the corporate sword of Damocles in order to cut a bunch of isms in the bud and thereby provide an "inclusive" workplace. But F/OSS doesn't have the ability to fire anyone.
We must persuade, rather than threaten.
> How enlightened!
I've said I was a dinosaur, which I guess means to some people that I get my girlfriends with a club. I also prefer subnetting and routing to VPNs.
Oh, my mistake Bob, I thought you wanted a serious discussion and not some comedy. Never mind, my mistake!
Bob,
Please, don't say this:
Also the next time you are out, take a good look at some of the birds, particular ravens and crows. Some are surprisingly intelligent, their motions and structure resemble their ancestors (as confirmed by recent DNA sampling). See they are still here, despite our best efforts of killing off all other species. So if you reflect on this you might see it might not be necessary to apologize for sharing characteristics of a supposedly extinct animal.
To me it's like some of the Terminator series, I happen to prefer the Sarah Connors Chronicles - I root for the robots, they seem to be less the pathological murderers than the not so reflective humans.
[All Too Serious]
YBT
Please, don't say this:
Quoting: ... I was a dinosaur ..., since despite their probable brutish characteristics they lasted far longer than it is likely the reign of humanity will persist. Our supposed intelligence will be of no advantage when only a few possess foresight while the rest prefer their comfort with current conditions. No matter how suicidal. A few hundred million years as still looks like a more successful run than is likely for us.
Also the next time you are out, take a good look at some of the birds, particular ravens and crows. Some are surprisingly intelligent, their motions and structure resemble their ancestors (as confirmed by recent DNA sampling). See they are still here, despite our best efforts of killing off all other species. So if you reflect on this you might see it might not be necessary to apologize for sharing characteristics of a supposedly extinct animal.
To me it's like some of the Terminator series, I happen to prefer the Sarah Connors Chronicles - I root for the robots, they seem to be less the pathological murderers than the not so reflective humans.
[All Too Serious]
YBT
> , "Dudes, get a clue. Be polite and considerate of you're never going to get a girlfriend."?
I've heard from usually reliable sources that that's not really true, though I can't speak from personal experience.
I've heard from usually reliable sources that that's not really true, though I can't speak from personal experience.
> Our supposed intelligence will be of no advantage when only a few possess foresight while the rest prefer their comfort with current conditions. No matter how suicidal.
Now Tex, let's not let politics squeak in here.
> A few hundred million years as still looks like a more successful run than is likely for us.
Humans do seem to be a transitory species. Something more stable, less suicidal, must arise. In my _opinion_, this will most likely come about once we have exceeded the bounds of this rock.
> I root for the robots
The next species to follow may very well be children of our minds, rather than out bodies.
Now Tex, let's not let politics squeak in here.
> A few hundred million years as still looks like a more successful run than is likely for us.
Humans do seem to be a transitory species. Something more stable, less suicidal, must arise. In my _opinion_, this will most likely come about once we have exceeded the bounds of this rock.
> I root for the robots
The next species to follow may very well be children of our minds, rather than out bodies.
Maybe "Linux Needs Women" should be the next Blender movie.
Quoting:Maybe "Linux Needs Women" should be the next Blender movie.
If you really want more women helping the Linux platform, you'd better stress -the impact FLOSS has on society, -the relation with licenses / copyright and philosophy / moral aspects (but maybe better don't try to discuss that at LXer though), -the relations between humans needed to develop software -the creativity needed to code / write manuals -the people skills it takes to manage huge projects like the Linux-kernel -the nice gatherings with attendants from all over the world
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think lots of women are interested in work dealing with society issues, relations between humans, traveling and creativity. People who did research on psychosocial stressors in inter-human relationships are probably very qualified to deal with flamewars in bugzilla's.
And then the sexism should be dealt with also, of course, to make women feel welcome.
But probably that attempt is way to serious for this thread anyway.
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Sexism is a symptom. It's a reflection of stupidity, not a disease in of itself.
What's that old saying, "Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes right to the core." An ugly person is ugly in many ways, not just one.