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Linux Foundation Head Says OS Can Be 'Fabulous and Free'
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Comments (90)
70 earlier comments in the full thread.
hkwint:
Sorry I didn't get back with you before now. And you are right, I went right over you on that post. Your advice is well taken, and thank you. To get back with your earlier post, I read on two of the links you provided, khronos.org and the linuxfoundation.org already.
And on that note, I have always agreed with such relationships built, as the Open Handset Alliance, because it is important to the future of the contributions made to such open source developments, and the support that such alliances provide on both sides of the relationship. Support, people are looking for in these areas of technologies, they don't always understand, providers of these technologies as Handsets, are not all training tech and/or managers to handle open source at the retail level.
The lack of information at the retail point of sale, I feel I can say will/does back-away some non-tech people, mostly as I find, those who feel they are more "up on" Microsoft for example. I have a funny story, went to a large tech retailer, asked about the phone from Google; the sales staff person didn't know what I was talking about. So, I understand that someone walking into the same retailer, a non-tech person, after they have read/other about the phone from Google lets say, and maybe get lost because they get the same when asking about the same phone.
The future is looking better as more people learn about Linux and the community that support it, and the projects of software developemnt as a whole.
Sorry I didn't get back with you before now. And you are right, I went right over you on that post. Your advice is well taken, and thank you. To get back with your earlier post, I read on two of the links you provided, khronos.org and the linuxfoundation.org already.
And on that note, I have always agreed with such relationships built, as the Open Handset Alliance, because it is important to the future of the contributions made to such open source developments, and the support that such alliances provide on both sides of the relationship. Support, people are looking for in these areas of technologies, they don't always understand, providers of these technologies as Handsets, are not all training tech and/or managers to handle open source at the retail level.
The lack of information at the retail point of sale, I feel I can say will/does back-away some non-tech people, mostly as I find, those who feel they are more "up on" Microsoft for example. I have a funny story, went to a large tech retailer, asked about the phone from Google; the sales staff person didn't know what I was talking about. So, I understand that someone walking into the same retailer, a non-tech person, after they have read/other about the phone from Google lets say, and maybe get lost because they get the same when asking about the same phone.
The future is looking better as more people learn about Linux and the community that support it, and the projects of software developemnt as a whole.
Quoting: The future is looking better as more people learn about Linux and the community that support it, and the projects of software developemnt as a whole.
Rob_on --
I think some kind of coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way would help, just as it has helped for servers and handsets, but...ultimately, Microsoft's (and Apple's) biggest advantage are the network effects it enjoys.
As you point out, retail stores carry Windows software and the people who work in big boxes are much more likely to know and push Windows software. Ditto for the Apple Geniuses at Apple stores.
A new user considering Linux isn't going to find the same kind of support and reinforcement system without looking for it.
"I think some kind of coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way would help, just as it has helped for servers and handsets, but...ultimately, Microsoft's (and Apple's) biggest advantage are the network effects it enjoys."
dinotrac:
I believe OEMs don't view Linux as part of the marketing, of their hardware to consumers. I believe that because people, not enough anyway, just walk into retail and ask for Linux by name. I say that because having talked to people about Linux, most have been quick to mention that they just don't see Linux where they see/buy computers. Most retail sales staff have little if any knowlege to offer about Linux, even know what it is in some cases I have found.
I agree with you, on a coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way; however I can't believe it would work without more OEMs with Linux boxes on retail display, and people become aware of Linux seeing it in the market where they shop. True, that mags and even on the internet people can find OEMs that offer Linux as DELL; but I believe the MS networking you mentioned, allows people to interact with new Windows boxes and few if any Linux ones where consumers buy.
People like to see and interact with what they will use, and buy more when things are available to do so. I know as a consumer that seeing and interacting with something makes an easy choice to try something new too. The "trick" I see will come down to relationships as well, relationships with the people that will use Linux not using it now; not too unlike those relationships with Handsets makers etc.
dinotrac:
I believe OEMs don't view Linux as part of the marketing, of their hardware to consumers. I believe that because people, not enough anyway, just walk into retail and ask for Linux by name. I say that because having talked to people about Linux, most have been quick to mention that they just don't see Linux where they see/buy computers. Most retail sales staff have little if any knowlege to offer about Linux, even know what it is in some cases I have found.
I agree with you, on a coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way; however I can't believe it would work without more OEMs with Linux boxes on retail display, and people become aware of Linux seeing it in the market where they shop. True, that mags and even on the internet people can find OEMs that offer Linux as DELL; but I believe the MS networking you mentioned, allows people to interact with new Windows boxes and few if any Linux ones where consumers buy.
People like to see and interact with what they will use, and buy more when things are available to do so. I know as a consumer that seeing and interacting with something makes an easy choice to try something new too. The "trick" I see will come down to relationships as well, relationships with the people that will use Linux not using it now; not too unlike those relationships with Handsets makers etc.
Quoting:Most retail sales staff have little if any knowledge to offer about Linux, even know what it is in some cases I have found.
Most retail staff that I have talked to have little to no computer knowledge at all. They're just generic sales drones. They can't answer any question that you can't answer yourself by reading the box.
The very few shops that do have knowledgeable and technically inclined staff are also the shops that sell Linux. They may not have it on display, but they will sell you a computer with your choice of Linux distro installed (and make sure the hardware works).
Rob_on: Of course the lack of a Linux 'showcase' corner in MediaMarkt / TESCO / Carrefour / Wal- or K-Markt (or whatever it is where you live) is a problem too.
It would be great if it had its own corner in such shops, where people can ask questions and see live product demo's.
It's the path Apple went. And I'm pretty sure Apple did some research before they left their "Apple store only" adagio. After that research they made their own "Apple-corners" in stores like MediaMarkt, I believe.
Now, you could make a booth with some volunteers in front of the store showcasing Linux. But only few people would volunteer to do so. The only reason lots of people would do so is if they were paid. I'd say some 'corporate Linux desktop alliance' would be the right body to so.
But it seems at this moment, they don't think "creating Linux-desktop demand" is the right thing to do. The problem here is Microsoft forbids them to create Linux demand (we're pretty sure this happened at Dell), but we can't proof it to the EC. Motorola, Google and Verizon on the other hand, they're not dependent on the prices Microsoft charges them for Windows. So they're in the position to create demand.
As long as Dell, Acer, HP and such don't have a market share above 40%, they can't be fined (by the EC) for abusing their market share, unless they have a secret 'cartel'.
So that's the problem: Microsoft can forbid them to create Linux demand, and as long as those 'contracts' remain secret there's nothing the EC (or other authorities) can do.
It would be great if it had its own corner in such shops, where people can ask questions and see live product demo's.
It's the path Apple went. And I'm pretty sure Apple did some research before they left their "Apple store only" adagio. After that research they made their own "Apple-corners" in stores like MediaMarkt, I believe.
Now, you could make a booth with some volunteers in front of the store showcasing Linux. But only few people would volunteer to do so. The only reason lots of people would do so is if they were paid. I'd say some 'corporate Linux desktop alliance' would be the right body to so.
But it seems at this moment, they don't think "creating Linux-desktop demand" is the right thing to do. The problem here is Microsoft forbids them to create Linux demand (we're pretty sure this happened at Dell), but we can't proof it to the EC. Motorola, Google and Verizon on the other hand, they're not dependent on the prices Microsoft charges them for Windows. So they're in the position to create demand.
As long as Dell, Acer, HP and such don't have a market share above 40%, they can't be fined (by the EC) for abusing their market share, unless they have a secret 'cartel'.
So that's the problem: Microsoft can forbid them to create Linux demand, and as long as those 'contracts' remain secret there's nothing the EC (or other authorities) can do.
astounding, no big players have decided to push it into boxmarts because the boxmarts havent asked for it. The boxmarts havent asked for it because the players arent supplying it ... and you guys are arguing the points as if one of the two should naturally be doing it. On one hand we have the circular logic and in the other, linux users with a stick merrily whacking the wheel along.
whaa whaa whaa whaa
So what does it take to get zareason or some other firm into boxmart? Why expect the entrenched to make the push from a known profitable strategy, give boxmart a way to see atleast a one shot profit from carrying product from yet another from a myriad of suppliers.
wow
whaa whaa whaa whaa
So what does it take to get zareason or some other firm into boxmart? Why expect the entrenched to make the push from a known profitable strategy, give boxmart a way to see atleast a one shot profit from carrying product from yet another from a myriad of suppliers.
wow
> So what does it take to get zareason or some other firm into boxmart?
Enough cash flow/profit to buy their way in. Floor space at a big merchandiser costs money. It gives you enough visibility that you can easily make it back (if your product is popular enough), but you've got to have the money first.
Enough cash flow/profit to buy their way in. Floor space at a big merchandiser costs money. It gives you enough visibility that you can easily make it back (if your product is popular enough), but you've got to have the money first.
jd since when do you rent floorspace in boxmart?
azerthoth
I think, the boxmarts are where the mass public go to buy, regardless, knowing about Linux or not. Thats where they buy. Most of such buyers, they have little/no contact with Linux, and really don't think about it, as we do. I can say Linux doesn't need the boxmarts, but that gos with the fact I already use Linux. For those with the only choices that are on display, I see the boxmarts as only a good place to start to reach more people.
As for a starting point if asked, I will tell you OEMs need to be first, inside and outside the boxmarts with Linux. More people would take more notice, if Linux was found on more OEM's boxes. Boxes available for interaction, that are found in those common places people shop and buy computers. OEMs will respond when people are using Linux through computer sales, sales because of Linux.
Those people over just the past five years, started using Linux as I believe, did so through contact and interacting with it. I know I did some years ago without going the boxmart way. Because, few then, were offering Linux anywhere other then well known Linux sources.
I think, the boxmarts are where the mass public go to buy, regardless, knowing about Linux or not. Thats where they buy. Most of such buyers, they have little/no contact with Linux, and really don't think about it, as we do. I can say Linux doesn't need the boxmarts, but that gos with the fact I already use Linux. For those with the only choices that are on display, I see the boxmarts as only a good place to start to reach more people.
As for a starting point if asked, I will tell you OEMs need to be first, inside and outside the boxmarts with Linux. More people would take more notice, if Linux was found on more OEM's boxes. Boxes available for interaction, that are found in those common places people shop and buy computers. OEMs will respond when people are using Linux through computer sales, sales because of Linux.
Those people over just the past five years, started using Linux as I believe, did so through contact and interacting with it. I know I did some years ago without going the boxmart way. Because, few then, were offering Linux anywhere other then well known Linux sources.
> jd since when do you rent floorspace in boxmart?
You don't rent space, but unless you're an established vendor, you usually have to pay them an upfront fee of some type to put your items on their shelves. At least that's what I've always been told.
You don't rent space, but unless you're an established vendor, you usually have to pay them an upfront fee of some type to put your items on their shelves. At least that's what I've always been told.
@Rob_on, OEMs first is just perpetuating the circular logic. As I mentioned earlier, looking at it as an either/or is like a kid with a stick rolling the wheel down the road. You just whacked the wheel another time.
@jd, it's a little more complex than bribery but also a little more legal.
@jd, it's a little more complex than bribery but also a little more legal.
> it's a little more complex than bribery but also a little more legal.
You'll notice I carefully avoided using that word. :)
You'll notice I carefully avoided using that word. :)
I wouldn't go that far. Shelf space is zero-sum; one product's shelf space can't be another's. Putting a product with "less than stellar" demand involves risk for a retailer; a payment to that retailer reduces the risk.
@azerthoth
Is there another choice, as maybe buying a boxcar load of computers and mass install Linux on all of them. What then is done with them. Is it to open a roadside tailgate store in the summer, selling cold iced-tea as an attraction. Or maybe, setup yet another website store, so people that have no idea what a "Linux" is, can search and find it. As for the OEMs, can kiss me on the darkside, and be done with it. I don't care about them.
I see though on second thought, I am not making these computers that, people are buying. I believe that is important. Maybe an approach like an OEM could work; that is if I could get the help to have such (no namebrand) computers made to put what I want on them. Yet again I don't like the roadside tailgate store in the summer idea, from the fact that, when most people like to shop in the AC, of a store well stocked, and being able to interact, with almost everything. This is not just my idea(s); it's a fact.
Bribery not included: When thinking about it, all the logic adds up to sh*t. Because I just can't seem to nail how a tiny kernel that has grown to this point, growth that has anything that ties-up with logic. Wait, that picture just painted, has to do with the facts of the past, when the tiny kernel, was in the shadows of the many tall trees then. I can't see a great kernel as Linux didn't move along as a whacked wheel a few times in it's climb. Starting points play an important role, no matter how bad they seem to be at first.
Is there another choice, as maybe buying a boxcar load of computers and mass install Linux on all of them. What then is done with them. Is it to open a roadside tailgate store in the summer, selling cold iced-tea as an attraction. Or maybe, setup yet another website store, so people that have no idea what a "Linux" is, can search and find it. As for the OEMs, can kiss me on the darkside, and be done with it. I don't care about them.
I see though on second thought, I am not making these computers that, people are buying. I believe that is important. Maybe an approach like an OEM could work; that is if I could get the help to have such (no namebrand) computers made to put what I want on them. Yet again I don't like the roadside tailgate store in the summer idea, from the fact that, when most people like to shop in the AC, of a store well stocked, and being able to interact, with almost everything. This is not just my idea(s); it's a fact.
Bribery not included: When thinking about it, all the logic adds up to sh*t. Because I just can't seem to nail how a tiny kernel that has grown to this point, growth that has anything that ties-up with logic. Wait, that picture just painted, has to do with the facts of the past, when the tiny kernel, was in the shadows of the many tall trees then. I can't see a great kernel as Linux didn't move along as a whacked wheel a few times in it's climb. Starting points play an important role, no matter how bad they seem to be at first.
The whacked wheel analogy is the circular logic of OEM must provide before boxmart supplies / boxmart must demand before OEM provides. Keep whacking, but your stuck in that loop.
> Shelf space is zero-sum; one product's shelf space can't be another's. Putting a product with "less than stellar" demand involves risk for a retailer; a payment to that retailer reduces the risk.
Exactly. Walmart knows how many Dell's, HP's, and Acer's they can sell each month. You're a complete unknown. If you want shelf space, you have to pay Walmart what they'll lose by giving up the space for the Dell/HP/Acer machine up front. Once you have a proven track record of sales, they'll drop that requirement.
Exactly. Walmart knows how many Dell's, HP's, and Acer's they can sell each month. You're a complete unknown. If you want shelf space, you have to pay Walmart what they'll lose by giving up the space for the Dell/HP/Acer machine up front. Once you have a proven track record of sales, they'll drop that requirement.
AZ: Maybe read Wikipedia next time before making comments?
"In 2003 Saturn and Apple Inc. signed a contract for a "store-in-store" concept, allowing consumers to purchase Apple products in special sections of some branch stores."
Don't ask me, ask Motorola and Verizon why they invested $100M.
"In 2003 Saturn and Apple Inc. signed a contract for a "store-in-store" concept, allowing consumers to purchase Apple products in special sections of some branch stores."
Quoting:Why expect the entrenched to make the push from a known profitable strategy
Don't ask me, ask Motorola and Verizon why they invested $100M.
"whacked wheel analogy"
@ azerthoth
At this point I would just love to know what it is now you're getting at for sure, as only now I can make a good guess. My guess is that retail (boxmarts), are yet another to be forbidden any favor ?
Your understanding of my point, has me scratch the side of my head, because I know that retailers (boxmarts), put on the shelves WHATEVER the OEMs are paying them to do so ! Regardless, or your logic it seems, would have a nasty kickback I believe. The "pay shelves" is also common where you buy food too, it has been around for many years; so says nothing to your fig of logic, whacked wheel analogy.
@ azerthoth
At this point I would just love to know what it is now you're getting at for sure, as only now I can make a good guess. My guess is that retail (boxmarts), are yet another to be forbidden any favor ?
Your understanding of my point, has me scratch the side of my head, because I know that retailers (boxmarts), put on the shelves WHATEVER the OEMs are paying them to do so ! Regardless, or your logic it seems, would have a nasty kickback I believe. The "pay shelves" is also common where you buy food too, it has been around for many years; so says nothing to your fig of logic, whacked wheel analogy.
@jdixon
Apr 22, 2010 4:03 PM EST
Yes, I couldn't agree more with the truth ! I wish I had added it to my reply before this one.
Apr 22, 2010 4:03 PM EST
Yes, I couldn't agree more with the truth ! I wish I had added it to my reply before this one.
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Good advice. Now are you going to tell him I sent you the text to post in a background, private message?
tc, Thanks, but I think I like my own version better. Now I know why I will never be a gamer.
YBT