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wouldn't it be simpler to say died rather than circumlocute?

Maybe in Australia that is considered circumlocution. In the United States it is simply considered polite.

In what way is it polite, or any more polite than stating the truth?

How about, it's polite for taking into account the feelings of the bereaved?

How the world sees us Trace:

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/australia-worlds...

dead is dead, no matter how you say it, how does circumlocution change that fact, in what way does it hurt less if you pretend it isn't so?

> In what way is it polite, or any more polite than stating the truth?

Since everyone in the US with at least a grade school reading level knows the term, there's absolutely no difference. It's more common than "kicked the bucket", "bought the farm", "left this mortal coil", "departed", and at least a dozen other ways of referring to the same thing. It's considered more polite simply because it's less blunt.

> ...dead is dead, no matter how you say it...

Exactly. So the terms you use make no difference whatsoever. Your criticizing it is like my complaining because a Brit used the word torch to refer to a flashlight.

tracyanne, I am stating the truth. I am saying it in the single most common way used in the United States, a way that is considered polite and respectful. Why on earth are you making an argument out of it?

Quoting:dead is dead, no matter how you say it

I know some religious people who would strongly argue that point. Thankfully, that is a TOS violation here so it won't happen.

> I am saying it in the single most common way used in the United States...

As noted above, from my reading of British authors, I'd say it's fairly common in Britain as well.

Same down here at the southern tip of Africa. It's not strange to say "passed away".

Of course, we could just all reduce our language to blunt terms, remove any sense of finesse out of our speech and just bark at one another like savages.

Quoting:Exactly. So the terms you use make no difference whatsoever.

So why bother to circumlocute in the first place, why not say it direct. Saying Passed away sounds like you are trying make it sound like the death isn't real. It seems like an insult to peoples intelligence to do that, to me. I can't imagine my father as having passed away, it makes no sense, he's dead, he died (he didn't pass any where, let alone away) from a massive coronary, trying to make his death sound less real doesn't make it so, and it doesn't make it hurt less.

So ok... tracyanne. if I handed you a Thesaurus, would you be kind enough to cross out all the synonyms that do not get the tracyanne seal of approval?

Your criticism is pointless. The term you are attacking is a common one, and there's no valid basis to attack it.

I prefer to say "jump the shark" than "obviously ran out of ideas". I prefer to use words like "meander" or "stroll" rather than "walk". I prefer to say "it was a doddle" or "piece of cake", rather than "it was easy". *insert too many to count examples here*

A word could mean the same as another, but contain nuances. Informing someone that their father has "died" is perfectly fine, not impolite, not incorrect. But using a gentler term, implies that you also express empathy.

I also remember someone throwing a fit about criticism of Mark Shuttleworth for using gender-exclusive language, on the basis that in Australia, that's the way people talk, which makes it okay. In the US, "passed away" is how we talk.

There is also an air of intolerance in the whole of turning this into an argument. Saying "passed away" isn't just "finesse." It is more sensitive to those whose lives were touched by the person who died and it is more polite. tracyanne, I get that you don't seem to like sensitive approaches. I also remember you jumping all over me for posting well wishes to everyone in the metaforum because I put them into my own cultural context around a holiday (the Jewish new year) that was being celebrated at the time. The post ended up being locked even though it was nothing more than wishing everyone a good year to follow and despite the fact that I had made such posts without issue in several previous years.

tracyanne, not everyone sees the world the way you do. Not everyone here is from the same cultural background you are. Not everyone communicates the same way you do. LXer has a diverse community of participants who are going to bring their own background and viewpoints to the discussion. Why attack the language someone uses when it is simply different from your own?

I should add one thing further so that you understand where I am coming from. I knew Roger Zelazny personally. We met at a science fiction convention in 1978. He encouraged and even offered to edit my writing. I was unpublished at the time and all of 18 years old and his help was invaluable. We met again twice more in the 1980s and did correspond.

I'm not just a fan of Roger Zelazny's writing. I admire the man and am forever grateful for what he did for me. I did publish a little fiction under a pseudonym and I believe Roger made that possible for me. No, I'm not sharing the name I used because looking back at the writing it seems hopelessly weak to me in retrospect. I'm not much of a fiction writer. I lack the imagination and inspiration great writers of fantasy and science fiction like Roger Zelazny have. Non-fiction works better for me.

So, yes, "passed away" is more respectful and I used it out of my great personal respect for the man. Is there really anything wrong with that?

As an Australian expat in the US this debate is fun to watch. I agree with both sides.

It certainly is sensitive to peoples feelings to refer to things politely, respectfully or euphemistically (depending on your viewpoint). It can also describe well a complex set of feelings.

On the other hand if you use indirect language to hide from the reality or truth of a given situation you are also not showing respect. Rather than "barking like a savage" you can honestly and directly face a given human situation which while painful at first in the end helps in healing.

Which approach is better is not clear and probably culturally determined.

Montezuma, you're right that on an international forum cultural differences can cause some confusions. But people of honest good will work them out and make allowances, and when someone spells it out clearly like Caitlyn and others did in this thread that takes care of any alleged cultural differences.

It's not like we haven't had to question what some particularly Australian slang meant before when you dropped it on us TA. We didn't argue with your use of it, only clarification of what it meant. If a turn of phrase is unclear to you, don't get 'your knickers in a twist' over it. Ask and move on, as we have done for you you can do for us. It's called courtesy, which is typically preferable to intolerance.

Hi everyone, its me.

This thread has gotten way way off track so for the good of my mood and the reputation of LXer I am closing it to any further posting. I have contacted those that need to be contacted regarding this.

Courtesy is preferable to intolerance Azer which is why I am closing this thread for the courtesy of all of LXer's readers.

Scott