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Why Did They Take My GNOME Buttons Away?
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Comments (33)
13 earlier comments in the full thread.
Well geez ken, then install a different file manager. Like Emelfm, which is super-nifty. Or Nautilus or whatever you want.
Hmmm, and why do we need to focus on the window title anyway? I'd think that the aplication we're using should be the focus, not its window title.
@ jacog...I can agree with that. My main concern is in how efficient it will be to do it the "new way" as opposed to the traditional nav bar. I suppose actually getting in there and doing it would be a better test than just looking at a series of screenshots. I'd be better prepared to comment...course, never let it be said that I missed an opportunity to criticize before knowing how something really works. I have a rep to keep up you know...
TC...personally I am fairly happy with Gnome. It's a comfortable environment for me whereas I find Xfce doesn't meet my needs. I spend inordinate amounts of time in my file manager and while I miss some of the functionality of the old Konqueror, I've adapted to the changes and have found ways to make it work quickly and efficiently. I guess my point, if any, is that I find it a bit strange to install a light weight DE, then replace or augment present apps, thus fattening the environment. If I found Xfce comfortable, then I suppose that would be fine...I just personally don't care for Xfce, but many do.
And you are right. Emelfm2 is a rockin' file manager. When you get into some of the functionality, you come to realize how powerful it is.
TC...personally I am fairly happy with Gnome. It's a comfortable environment for me whereas I find Xfce doesn't meet my needs. I spend inordinate amounts of time in my file manager and while I miss some of the functionality of the old Konqueror, I've adapted to the changes and have found ways to make it work quickly and efficiently. I guess my point, if any, is that I find it a bit strange to install a light weight DE, then replace or augment present apps, thus fattening the environment. If I found Xfce comfortable, then I suppose that would be fine...I just personally don't care for Xfce, but many do.
And you are right. Emelfm2 is a rockin' file manager. When you get into some of the functionality, you come to realize how powerful it is.
Just a note Linux Mint 11 will be using GNOME 3... but NOT GNOME Shell, which means it will look pretty much like the current GNOME 2 desktop that Linux Mint currently use.
I consider Nautilus and Thunar rather interchangeable, meaning I'm OK using either or both in GNOME or Xfce.
I'm burning the Mint Xfce project now...will revisit since it's been a while. Will do a hard install on spare partition. I'll be back....
Uh, do I have to pay anyone royalties for saying that? Just checkin'...
Uh, do I have to pay anyone royalties for saying that? Just checkin'...
I've been meditating on this latest "improvement" from Gnome and I think tmx has hit the button. The resemblance of the "new" Gnome DE to a smart-phone screen is pretty obvious to me at any rate, but I have the feeling that there is a very large problem. Although I don't use a smart phone, I am surrounded by people that do and I watch them interact with their devices. My observations are that the way they use a smart phone with finger strokes is rather different from the way I (and others like me) use a desktop or a laptop computer for writing or databasing. In my opinion, interactive procedures that are sensible on a tiny screen with limited display area do not readily carry over to productive work flows on a larger screen where you also have mouse and keyboard. The latter may be "old tools" in the computer world, but they are superb for data entry and manipulation. Anything that reduces their effectiveness is simply an absurdity.
There is an article by Susan Linton currently on LXer which compares the popularity of the various DE's: "What is Your Favorite Desktop?" Susan notes the dramatic fall in KDE popularity, modified of course by the increasing popularity of Ubuntu and its principle DE of Gnome. I'd like to know how much of that fall was also due to KDE4. However Susan indicates that what she is really waiting for is to see what effect Ubuntu's Unity will have on these results......Could be very applicable to the way Gnome is currently travelling.
There is an article by Susan Linton currently on LXer which compares the popularity of the various DE's: "What is Your Favorite Desktop?" Susan notes the dramatic fall in KDE popularity, modified of course by the increasing popularity of Ubuntu and its principle DE of Gnome. I'd like to know how much of that fall was also due to KDE4. However Susan indicates that what she is really waiting for is to see what effect Ubuntu's Unity will have on these results......Could be very applicable to the way Gnome is currently travelling.
Whatever they do has to take modern interface devices into consideration. By that, I mean touch screens, accelerometers, motion capture devices (ala Kinect® style devices), voice control and, in the future, neuro-feedback and location sensors. My guess is that they are not thinking in those terms. Or, at least at the level of attention given, isn't that forward-thinking.
@helios - You might like the Xfce base with Nautilus added. I don't do any scripting in the file manager, so I would be OK with Thunar.
What didn't work for me in Xfce when I was in Fedora 13 was the lack of networking ability in Thunar. I wanted to set up FTP in the file manager, and Gigolo - the tool that does that in some Xfce distros - didn't work for me.
I ended up using Filezilla for my FTP needs, and now that I'm in GNOME I haven't bothered to set up Nautilus for http://FTP. I'm still using Filezilla for everything.
What didn't work for me in Xfce when I was in Fedora 13 was the lack of networking ability in Thunar. I wanted to set up FTP in the file manager, and Gigolo - the tool that does that in some Xfce distros - didn't work for me.
I ended up using Filezilla for my FTP needs, and now that I'm in GNOME I haven't bothered to set up Nautilus for http://FTP. I'm still using Filezilla for everything.
XFCE with Nautilus?
Funny, I use gnome 2.X with Thunar.
I've got everything set to use Thunar instead of Nautilus except for the trash.
I still can't delete Nautilus because it is the desktop in gnome, but I'm much happier with Thunar's snappy response time.
BTW, I downloaded the live SuSE gnome3 demo and ran it from usb. The navigation buttons were on all my windows, and they were on the right side.
BTW, I downloaded the live SuSE gnome3 demo and ran it from usb. The navigation buttons were on all my windows, and they were on the right side.
I keep getting headlines about gnome3 in liferea and it appears gnome3 is taking a cue from Shuttleworth's ideas.. It seems that way, which is fine but I'm pretty sure I'll not be using gnome3. No minimize, maximize, no panel that I'll recognize and who knows what else they've got in store for gnome3. Hope it works out for them, in the end, but, they sure are alienating a large user-base.
gnome3 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631553
@helios try pcmanfm
gnome3 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631553
@helios try pcmanfm
Quoting:Why use a DE that requires all kinds of tweaking just to get it out of its own way and making it marginally useful? Gimmicks and lard, and efficiency and actual usability continue their steep downhill slide.Somehow DE developers have gotten the crazy idea that in order to have the next big thing they have to throw out all that has gone before. I don't get it. I really don't.
Quoting:I'm taking a wait-and-see approach with GNOME 3 and GNOME Shell.Me too. Honestly, I don't like what I've seen so far but it isn't a finished product. Unity, OTOH, has no appeal to me whatsoever. I don't even like that sort of interface on a netbook. A computer is not a cell phone, folks.
I really like Xfce but I wish they had the ability to have sounds for certain events in the DE. I don't like my DE noisy and, yes, some distros make GNOME or KDE noisy by default. OTOH, some auditory cues are nice.
LXDE is lacking too much, particularly for folks like me who have to change keyboard layouts and even character sets.
I guess I'm not a file manager power user because Thunar is adequate for me. OTOH, pcmanfm and emelfm are nice alternatives.
[Note: edited for typos and formatting only.]
Quoting:I keep getting headlines about gnome3 in liferea and it appears gnome3 is taking a cue from Shuttleworth's ideas.. It seems that way, which is fine but I'm pretty sure I'll not be using gnome3. No minimize, maximize, no panel that I'll recognize and who knows what else they've got in store for gnome3. Hope it works out for them, in the end, but, they sure are alienating a large user-base.
To all, who continue to complain about GNOME 3. Please explain to me how it is that Linux Mint will be using GNOME 3, and it will have ALL of the functions and visual aspects we associate with GNOME 2, Including minimize, maximize, and panel.
TA, we are all sort of stand-by shareholders in many Linux and Free Software projects. I think the mindshare that has a physical and emotional representation of those shares feels that things are going in the wrong direction. Of which I am one. Of course, Clem and the Mint folks have their finger on our pulse, as always....they get it right way more often than not
Sure we are blessed that someone is listening to us, but that's only one car in the train....again, I simply don't believe in radical change or any change for that matter just for the sake of change is a good thing.
Wow...that was a lot of "change"
Sure we are blessed that someone is listening to us, but that's only one car in the train....again, I simply don't believe in radical change or any change for that matter just for the sake of change is a good thing.
Wow...that was a lot of "change"
Ken the point here is that GNOME 3 isn't the huge departure from GNOME 2 that everyone seems to think. In fact as far as I've been able to ascertain it's no departure at all., as the Linux Mint result will bare out.
I believe the problem is too many people are assuming GNOME Shell is GNOME 3, it's not. GNOME Shell is part of GNOME 3, the part that has received almost all of the marketing love so far.
GNOME Shell works in it's place, on small screen devices, like netbooks, but more particularly touch screen devices, like tablets, as does Unity. Neither of them, no matter how their supporters like to think so, work well or at all on large screens and multi screen rigs, they are quite simply the wrong paradigm.
I believe the problem is too many people are assuming GNOME Shell is GNOME 3, it's not. GNOME Shell is part of GNOME 3, the part that has received almost all of the marketing love so far.
GNOME Shell works in it's place, on small screen devices, like netbooks, but more particularly touch screen devices, like tablets, as does Unity. Neither of them, no matter how their supporters like to think so, work well or at all on large screens and multi screen rigs, they are quite simply the wrong paradigm.
They did a bad PR job. If you can have your GNOME 3 and eat it like "2," they should have said so.
Yeah, I hope it's just bad PR job myself. It's a wait & see kinda thing unless your willing to go bleeding edge, which I'm unable to do atm.
Here's to gnome3! For creating a big splash and enticing a lot of folks into the future of the project.
Here's to gnome3! For creating a big splash and enticing a lot of folks into the future of the project.
JaseP: May I wholeheartedly agree to that!
Desktops are stationary things in offices. But the near future is mobile. And you can't carry a desktop along.
Ubuntu understood it, that's why I feel they're moving away from the 'DE'. Maybe Gnome has understood it, and they're also moving more to the PE. KDE probably not, I don't think their phat binaries run that well on phone-like hardware, though I may be false about that. Qt is great for phones, but MS has been very successful in making Nokia abandon Qt (today there was some news about how they sould 'licensing Qt').
So what do we have left? I'd say, Android currently offers the best experience for 'mobile devices'. I don't have a clue what their 'DE' is called, but it seems to do fine with touchscreens and accelerometers, and maybe also with 3D-gestures.
So I'm afraid as far as far as the most important adagio of this decade - being "Mobile 3C" is concerned (content consuming computing) is concerned, KDE and Gnome pretty much lost that 'battle' - if there ever was one. Currently, I'm pretty sure that's where Linux is the most successful, given number of phone / tablet sales. Maybe not in total number of users, but at least stats show great progress and gains. Linux is still at 1% market share. Even if that measurement is flawed, the flaw is 'constant' - and it hasn't risen the last decade AFAIK.
So all there's left for KDE and Gnome is for the few who actually like to "be productive", and I think LXDE / XFCE (and some others) understand pretty well lots of 'producers' don't want bells & whistles to get in the way of actually producing something. Because after all, bells & whistles are meant for 'consuming'. That's why I'm on WindowMaker - a pretty 'unmaintained' platform, but good enough for typing in the browser, running some office app and a personal information manager. Maybe some photo managing / editing, but I think most people don't need more than that, and I don't think an environment managing those 4 basic tasks has to be very complex. Now, it seems KDE itself is fulfilling some of these tasks - or trying so, instead of leaving it up to the apps themselves. But it's confusing people, so I don't hope Gnome will follow. After all, most people don't like 'browsers' push of widgets to the desktop (web applications outside the browser), nor do they like the KDE-widgets showing web info on their desktop. That model may suit a phone environment, but not on the DE it seems.
Still though, some of the bells and whistles add to productivity, like the "Aero Snap" function mentioned. I found out about it by accident at work on a Win7-workstation. But transparent titlebars and such, I don't get them.
So I hope Gnome will keep an eye on which bells / whistles actually enhance productivity, and which don't. I think such was the task of Gnome Shell (what I saw from it), and if it meets the requirements of raising productivity without distracting, I think it will be pretty successful.
Desktops are stationary things in offices. But the near future is mobile. And you can't carry a desktop along.
Ubuntu understood it, that's why I feel they're moving away from the 'DE'. Maybe Gnome has understood it, and they're also moving more to the PE. KDE probably not, I don't think their phat binaries run that well on phone-like hardware, though I may be false about that. Qt is great for phones, but MS has been very successful in making Nokia abandon Qt (today there was some news about how they sould 'licensing Qt').
So what do we have left? I'd say, Android currently offers the best experience for 'mobile devices'. I don't have a clue what their 'DE' is called, but it seems to do fine with touchscreens and accelerometers, and maybe also with 3D-gestures.
So I'm afraid as far as far as the most important adagio of this decade - being "Mobile 3C" is concerned (content consuming computing) is concerned, KDE and Gnome pretty much lost that 'battle' - if there ever was one. Currently, I'm pretty sure that's where Linux is the most successful, given number of phone / tablet sales. Maybe not in total number of users, but at least stats show great progress and gains. Linux is still at 1% market share. Even if that measurement is flawed, the flaw is 'constant' - and it hasn't risen the last decade AFAIK.
So all there's left for KDE and Gnome is for the few who actually like to "be productive", and I think LXDE / XFCE (and some others) understand pretty well lots of 'producers' don't want bells & whistles to get in the way of actually producing something. Because after all, bells & whistles are meant for 'consuming'. That's why I'm on WindowMaker - a pretty 'unmaintained' platform, but good enough for typing in the browser, running some office app and a personal information manager. Maybe some photo managing / editing, but I think most people don't need more than that, and I don't think an environment managing those 4 basic tasks has to be very complex. Now, it seems KDE itself is fulfilling some of these tasks - or trying so, instead of leaving it up to the apps themselves. But it's confusing people, so I don't hope Gnome will follow. After all, most people don't like 'browsers' push of widgets to the desktop (web applications outside the browser), nor do they like the KDE-widgets showing web info on their desktop. That model may suit a phone environment, but not on the DE it seems.
Still though, some of the bells and whistles add to productivity, like the "Aero Snap" function mentioned. I found out about it by accident at work on a Win7-workstation. But transparent titlebars and such, I don't get them.
So I hope Gnome will keep an eye on which bells / whistles actually enhance productivity, and which don't. I think such was the task of Gnome Shell (what I saw from it), and if it meets the requirements of raising productivity without distracting, I think it will be pretty successful.
@Steven_Rosenber, I think I recall it was you who tried Unity on a VM, and complained that you didn't get unity but instead a standard GNOME desktop with a different menu button than Ubuntu normally use... that was a standard GNOME 3 desktop.
Found it, here's the information, it's on this page Linux Mint 11: “Katya”
Found it, here's the information, it's on this page Linux Mint 11: “Katya”
Quoting:# Clem Says: February 22nd, 2011 at 5:47 am
No, not Unity. We’re going for Gnome 3 using a traditional desktop layout (no Gnome Shell). Of course you’ll be able to add Unity or Gnome Shell yourself, but by default the desktop will look similar to the one we’re using at the moment.
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There is a lack of scripted and other functionality within Thunar that just doesn't do the job for me. And that's fine...people switch to "lighter" DE's because they consider some of that functionality "bloat"...whereas I consider those functions mission-critical. I like my script that can move a file anywhere on my system with two mouse clicks...faster than even drag and drop if you do it often enough. Last time I used Xfce, Thunar was at best a good file viewer and a bit off the mark as a file manager. I don't think anyone can come into one camp after leaving another and completely leave what they did behind. Often I fear there would be more arguments than innovation.
I'm just sayin' apples are apples, and...well, you know.