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I’m not jumping on Firefox 4 or GNOME 3 just yet
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Comments (84)
64 earlier comments in the full thread.
There's not much I can say about this one http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3820... Bruce never actually went into specifics, he says he likes it, fine more power to him.
At best this review by Carla http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... is less than glowing. I think her final 2 paragraphs sum it up
BTW, I have never complained anywhere about bugs in KDE4, if I had come across any (or any that I recognised as bugs) I would have pointed them out. My only complaint has been it's much lauded functionality 'improvements', which I have found not to be, and the fact that I can't, or can't easily personalise KDE4 to suit my patterns of use.... whereas I find GNOME and XFCE especially easy to so. An I am in no way interested in changing my patterns of use to suit a desktop. KDE4 does not work for me, period. My biggest complaint about KDE4 is that did not get what I was lead to believe I would get.
The following comment at... misses the point
Disabling all the things will not improve KDE4s functionality, and certanly won't make it fit my workflow patterns. But so far as I can see from trying, nothing will.
At best this review by Carla http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... is less than glowing. I think her final 2 paragraphs sum it up
Quoting:I imagine some readers are thinking "You should report bugs and help improve KDE4." Which is a valid viewpoint because community support is what makes FOSS work. But I'm not going to. There are several other FOSS projects that I support as best as I can, that are valuable and useful to me. We all have to choose where to invest our limited resources, and mine go to projects that make sense to me.
It's been an interesting and useful exercise in choice and alternatives, at any rate. You see, we KDE3 lovers are not averse to change-- we're averse to changes that don't work for us.
BTW, I have never complained anywhere about bugs in KDE4, if I had come across any (or any that I recognised as bugs) I would have pointed them out. My only complaint has been it's much lauded functionality 'improvements', which I have found not to be, and the fact that I can't, or can't easily personalise KDE4 to suit my patterns of use.... whereas I find GNOME and XFCE especially easy to so. An I am in no way interested in changing my patterns of use to suit a desktop. KDE4 does not work for me, period. My biggest complaint about KDE4 is that did not get what I was lead to believe I would get.
The following comment at... misses the point
Quoting:I agree completely!! If some of these people dislike KDE 4.x so much, then don't use it. Just shut up about it and stop bad mouthing it to anyone who will listen! While early builds of KDE 4 were developmental, unstable and lacking key features, that has changed dramatically. Things took a leap forward with KDE 4.3 and I find KDE 4.5.x (and especially the new 4.6) to be breathtaking. You're right, everything a user doesn't need can be disabled or removed. I wish the die hards the best of luck trying to maintain KDE 3.5.x in the form of Unity. They're going to need it!
Disabling all the things will not improve KDE4s functionality, and certanly won't make it fit my workflow patterns. But so far as I can see from trying, nothing will.
Quoting:In fact having to remember which CTRL Key combination does what and then actuating it breaks my train of thought.
I guess by now you might have been using some Win7 box, and if you ever had a mouse with lots of buttons, you might have noticed about the same functionality is behind those mouse buttons. Makes more sense than using CTRL key combinations, which most people would probably detest. My keyboard also has such a key, which I sometimes hit by accident. So those problems could be solved, given the right hardware.
Quoting:And what if the "facts" show that the KDE4 developers are arrogant condescending jerks who don't deserve the time of day? What then?
Oh boy, you certainly shouldn't be a mathematician either, thinking you can prove anyone is a jerk. In Dutch there's a (childshood-)saying: "What you call others, you are yourself". I mean, you don't sit in your chair at home and complain when Medicins Sans Frontières in a disaster area only save 30 people while 100 other people die I hope?
Facts show, if you complain about volunteers doing their work badly, most of the times it would be better for the world if you help them instead of calling them arrogant condescending jerks.
And when in a disaster, are you going to blame MSF because they don't save you? Maybe they did so because somewhere else they were rescuing 100 people who were out of your sight. Claiming you can perform "bijection" when you don't know "what's around the corner" is the most stupid thing to do, from a mathematical point of view you only claim bijection when you add a proof. Most of the times using induction. I'm pretty sure given k people who like KDE, you can not proof you can find a k+1'th person who is dissatisfied with it for any number of K; those are only your assumptions.
It's OK if you don't like the software they make, but that's no reason to insult people who do their best to make something other people can use / like.
Also, it's pretty stupid to say things about "user satisfaction" if there are no facts supporting your view or the opposite. As you might now, discussing non-falsifiable claims is pretty useless in first place.
> ...you certainly shouldn't be a mathematician either...
I'm not, nor do I claim to be. However, show is not the same verb as prove. And please note that there is a question mark at the end of that sentence. It is not a statement of fact.
> ...most of the times it would be better for the world if you help them...
People tried Hans. The responses are what lead me to my conclusions.
> ...I'm pretty sure given k people who like KDE, you can not proof you can find a k+1'th person who is dissatisfied with it...
I don't need to prove it. All I need to do is ask and start counting. Some things don't need proof, merely documentation.
> It's OK if you don't like the software they make, but that's no reason to insult people who do their best to make something other people can use / like.
Quoting a song I've been known to listen to: "If that's your best, your best won't do." And if you don't consider their replies to people's complaints insulting, then we have no real basis for a discussion on the matter. And Fettoosh's "I believe the majority of the complains are mostly due to mis-information and the lack of it among other things." is merely a lukewarm rehashing of the same. If telling people who don't agree with you that they simply don't understand isn't arrogant and condescending, I don't know what is.
> Also, it's pretty stupid to say things about "user satisfaction" if there are no facts supporting your view or the opposite.
I don't believe I've used that term any where in this conversation.
I'm not, nor do I claim to be. However, show is not the same verb as prove. And please note that there is a question mark at the end of that sentence. It is not a statement of fact.
> ...most of the times it would be better for the world if you help them...
People tried Hans. The responses are what lead me to my conclusions.
> ...I'm pretty sure given k people who like KDE, you can not proof you can find a k+1'th person who is dissatisfied with it...
I don't need to prove it. All I need to do is ask and start counting. Some things don't need proof, merely documentation.
> It's OK if you don't like the software they make, but that's no reason to insult people who do their best to make something other people can use / like.
Quoting a song I've been known to listen to: "If that's your best, your best won't do." And if you don't consider their replies to people's complaints insulting, then we have no real basis for a discussion on the matter. And Fettoosh's "I believe the majority of the complains are mostly due to mis-information and the lack of it among other things." is merely a lukewarm rehashing of the same. If telling people who don't agree with you that they simply don't understand isn't arrogant and condescending, I don't know what is.
> Also, it's pretty stupid to say things about "user satisfaction" if there are no facts supporting your view or the opposite.
I don't believe I've used that term any where in this conversation.
Consider 'user satisfaction' equal to the number of people not switching to another DE I'd say.
It's not what you're saying, it's the tone and words chosen which really annoy me.
Now you're saying "you're best won't do", which is a much better way to stress your concerns than calling people arrogant jerks. In my opinion, labeling volunteer developers that way is not something which should be part of a polite disussion.
It's not what you're saying, it's the tone and words chosen which really annoy me.
Now you're saying "you're best won't do", which is a much better way to stress your concerns than calling people arrogant jerks. In my opinion, labeling volunteer developers that way is not something which should be part of a polite disussion.
> Consider 'user satisfaction' equal to the number of people not switching to another DE I'd say.
No one's done a count, true.
> It's not what you're saying, it's the tone and words chosen which really annoy me.
And how am I supposed to respond to people who insist on continually telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue" on a regular basis? KDE4 is a complete change over from KDE3. Saying otherwise is lying. The things people could do in KDE3 they can't do in KDE4, many times for no obvious or logical reason. People who complained about this were told they they just didn't understand KDE4, and that in the end if they weren't developers their opinion didn't matter.
Water is wet. The sky is blue. And people who say things like that are arrogant, condescending jerks.
> In my opinion, labeling volunteer developers that way is not something which should be part of a polite disussion.
Their public responses to KDE3.5 users trying in vain to make KDE4 work for them should never have been part of a polite discussion. I'm merely responding to their tone in kind. As with tracyanne, the term "arrogant, condescending jerks" is actually a TOS limited version of what I would otherwise call them.
And yes, this entirely a personal opinion. I've never claimed otherwise. I don't use KDE4. I have no intention of using KDE4. And the KDE4 developers have only themselves to thank for that.
No one's done a count, true.
> It's not what you're saying, it's the tone and words chosen which really annoy me.
And how am I supposed to respond to people who insist on continually telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue" on a regular basis? KDE4 is a complete change over from KDE3. Saying otherwise is lying. The things people could do in KDE3 they can't do in KDE4, many times for no obvious or logical reason. People who complained about this were told they they just didn't understand KDE4, and that in the end if they weren't developers their opinion didn't matter.
Water is wet. The sky is blue. And people who say things like that are arrogant, condescending jerks.
> In my opinion, labeling volunteer developers that way is not something which should be part of a polite disussion.
Their public responses to KDE3.5 users trying in vain to make KDE4 work for them should never have been part of a polite discussion. I'm merely responding to their tone in kind. As with tracyanne, the term "arrogant, condescending jerks" is actually a TOS limited version of what I would otherwise call them.
And yes, this entirely a personal opinion. I've never claimed otherwise. I don't use KDE4. I have no intention of using KDE4. And the KDE4 developers have only themselves to thank for that.
Quoting:RE: ... telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue"
jd,
Sorry, but indeed you are the one that may in error here. The first is may not be as readily apparent, however, I am sure in the second it takes just a mundane observation or two to disprove it.
Let's begin where I take "wet" to be the vernacular understanding of the sensation. However, there are masses of water in the gaseous phase that is not wet to the touch. Indeed if the humidity is not too high you may be unaware, consciously, of its presence. And the solid phase at a sufficiently low temperature could make a simple touch by an uninsulated finger a painful experience as your digit is welded to its solid surface.
Now about the sky, don't tell me the night sky is blue. What about a pervasive cloudy day where rain is threatened? Blue in a pig's eye it is. Perhaps it is memory that is deceiving you. It happens, my memories of Chicago area winters had crystal clear skies and my being comfortable in rolled up shirt sleeves outdoors at ten above zero. However, that was not typical weather for that area. Memories lead us astray.
Speaking of memories of KDE 4, what I remember best were the outraged rants protesting the then current release of Ubuntu with KDE 4.0 as only an option - not as the default these stalwarts claimed to be its due. They shouted on-line that it was READY! Why is it now forgotten? As I have read in perhaps this thread, no one claimed early version were ready. Really? Perhaps such claims belong with the Stalinist teams that rewrote histories. It looks like even defenders are somewhat defensive.
Throwing pigs before swine, what do you get? To many droppings I say.
As always jd,
YBT
Thanks for pointing out the limitations of my points, txt. Your input is always valued. :)
There is also the background events that happened during the KDE 4 development period that had an affect on all of this. S.u.S.E. Gmbh was a very large supporter of the KDE DE. SuSE always featured many DE's but was a very strong KDE supporter and contributor.
After SuSE became part of Novell and became a Gnome-centric, KDE lost out some of its best help.
I'm not complaining about this, and not saying that the KDE team was dependent on SuSE.
Just noting that those changes have consequences.
I'm not complaining about this, and not saying that the KDE team was dependent on SuSE.
Just noting that those changes have consequences.
Quoting:Now about the sky, don't tell me the night sky is blue.
Where I live, the night sky is a beautiful dark blue. It's never, ever black. Possibly because we're surrounded by water and are within 20 miles of a city.
Quoting:And how am I supposed to respond to people who insist on continually telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue"
My supposal: Like a wise, polite man of your statue you have proven to be over time. Not like an urban-style gangsta. I think your arguments are strong enough not to need that kind of language.
I easily admit such a comment aimed only at you can be perceived pretty arbitrary, but one has to start somewhere to try not to let the discussion deteriorate. Most discussions I saw where people started to use that kind of language, did. I can know, because I've been contributing to those flamefests myself in the past - as you'll probably remember. But I try to improve a bit, as you also might have noticed I changed my previous post to be less 'flaming' as well.
Quoting:About the original post, unless for some specific compatible reason, not sure why one wouldn't switch to Firefox 4, the speed performance is as much as 200% base on benchmarks.Sorry, but I have to retract my comment. On my dad's Windows computer I have to keep it at Firefox3 because 4 for some reason is not compatible with several multimedia plugins, such as can't play Windows Media contents. It's very strange, but I never found a solution to it since beta 1.
Also a bit off topic, afterward I did Windows Live Essentials update on the laptop (don't ask why) and it shows me a screen saving the activation for this Windows pre-release is out of date, even though the laptop was bought legally from the store with the factory's Windows installation.
Also GoogleSharing addon is now compatible with Firefox 4.
> My supposal: Like a wise, polite man of your statue you have proven to be over time.
Hans, you know how to make a convincing argument. :)
OK. I'll try to tone down the rhetoric. No promises though. However, feel free to delete anything you feel crosses the line. That's your job, after all.
> Not like an urban-style gangsta.
Well, there's very little gangsta like about my comments. If you think there is, you need to broaden your music selection some. Believe me, what I've said is mild in comparison to what I could say (not here, of course), and positively complimentary compared to what those folks would say. :)
> I easily admit such a comment aimed only at you can be perceived pretty arbitrary, but one has to start somewhere to try not to let the discussion deteriorate
As I said, that's your job. If you feel I'm being overly inflammatory, I'll try to tone it down.
I thought you were taking issue with the validity of my tone, not the effect on the fora. I apologize for assuming.
Hans, you know how to make a convincing argument. :)
OK. I'll try to tone down the rhetoric. No promises though. However, feel free to delete anything you feel crosses the line. That's your job, after all.
> Not like an urban-style gangsta.
Well, there's very little gangsta like about my comments. If you think there is, you need to broaden your music selection some. Believe me, what I've said is mild in comparison to what I could say (not here, of course), and positively complimentary compared to what those folks would say. :)
> I easily admit such a comment aimed only at you can be perceived pretty arbitrary, but one has to start somewhere to try not to let the discussion deteriorate
As I said, that's your job. If you feel I'm being overly inflammatory, I'll try to tone it down.
I thought you were taking issue with the validity of my tone, not the effect on the fora. I apologize for assuming.
JD, no, it's not my job, I'm not authorized to delete / change anything in forums, nor am I willing to. So you're responsible yourself!
What the urban style gangsta's say is unknown where I live, as per the invention of the beep.
What the urban style gangsta's say is unknown where I live, as per the invention of the beep.
> What the urban style gangsta's say is unknown where I live...
You're not missing anything. :)
You're not missing anything. :)
Ok, so I know things have gotten kinda heated in this thread..an understatement but still.. Everybody alright in here? For my part, staying on topic always helps in proving my point..;-)
@nalf38:
Are you serious?
I ran every release of KDE from pre-1.0 betas through 3.5.x prior to jumping ship. KDE 2.x was a wee bit rough, but 3.x was perfectly usable.
Yes, 3.5 was better, but pretending that the problems with 4.0 were somehow equivalent to those with 3.0 is just plain silly.
Are you serious?
Quoting:the release of KDE3 was pretty much the same; it 'wasn't usable until 3.5.
I ran every release of KDE from pre-1.0 betas through 3.5.x prior to jumping ship. KDE 2.x was a wee bit rough, but 3.x was perfectly usable.
Yes, 3.5 was better, but pretending that the problems with 4.0 were somehow equivalent to those with 3.0 is just plain silly.
I just like Dino, am astonished at the statement below
"release of KDE3 was pretty much the same; it 'wasn't usable until 3.5."
I also have used every KDE ever released right up to 4.6, some of the 1.x issues could be ropey but from about 2.1 onwards the word stability was practically invented by KDE or at least until 4.0 escaped.
"release of KDE3 was pretty much the same; it 'wasn't usable until 3.5."
I also have used every KDE ever released right up to 4.6, some of the 1.x issues could be ropey but from about 2.1 onwards the word stability was practically invented by KDE or at least until 4.0 escaped.
Wasn't KDE 3 mostly a code clean up and speed increase over KDE 2? I thought the functionality changed very little. There was a new print subsystem, support for kiosks and better support for gnome and apps based on non-qt stuff.
I remember kde3 being mostly the same but faster than kde 2
I remember kde3 being mostly the same but faster than kde 2
Quoting:In all seriousness, has anyone yet seen a review that praises Gnome 3 as an improvement in the series and possesses the ability to streamline and enhance productive and professional work ?
That was my first simple question which started this thread. So......by the look of it, the answer is "not yet" ? I am fairly sure those reviews don't exist for KDE4 after more than 3 years, but that's a different topic. "Wait and see" and "Watch this space" are two marvellous little statements.
I find that what you get in these reviews of the new swinging and dancing DE is always an article produced by a writer dripping with enthusiasm as he or she details all the new "things" that are present; but what you never find (as far as I can see) is precise details on how that writer personally used them himself/herself to produce the better productivity ~ the articles always "predict" that they will help, but never say "I did this and my results (shown here) detail how it got better compared with the previous version of the DE." That's how I think it was and is for KDE4 - and why I often question the need for KDE4's increased complexity given that my first reaction is to put KDE4 into the simpler and (to me) more useful KDE3.5 mode.
I wonder if it will be any different for Gnome3.
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> This is one of the things about KDE4 that I find less useful
> I remain firmly unconvinced as to KDE4's superiority over KDE3.
Your honor, the prosecution rests it's case. :)