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Ubuntu 11.10 Will Not Ship With A Classic Gnome Desktop
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Comments (41)
I wonder
12 earlier comments in the full thread.
You say that KDE4 gives users several GUI options, but I find it very ironic that the one option the KDE4 devs failed to include -- apparently on purpose, despite widespread requests for it by KDE users -- was the choice to make it look and function like KDE3.5.
The majority of the machines we installed at the Bruno Knaapen Technology Learning Center here in Austin are still running Mint 8...and those machines were placed over two years ago. It has been a stable, reliable system and when you consider the fact that these machines are used by dozens of kids in a week's time, that says a lot for Mint.
In that same period, we've fought with update breakage in Ubuntu from 9.10 - 10.4, especially with java and flash. Not sure what the Mint folks are doing differently but personally, I hope they keep it up.
We've decided to look at Mint again on our machines. We went to the Ubuntu LTS because our volunteers could use UCK to easily customize an Ubuntu release to include our additional programs and apps, but with the Gnome Shell and the fundamental actions of Gnome taking a radical turn, Mint will still offer the "standard" Gnome environment.
Change can be good but I think the remodeling of KDE and now Gnome has or will set us back to square one, as far as new users go.
From a stability and usability standpoint, Mint is doing the right thing by keeping the status quo.
In that same period, we've fought with update breakage in Ubuntu from 9.10 - 10.4, especially with java and flash. Not sure what the Mint folks are doing differently but personally, I hope they keep it up.
We've decided to look at Mint again on our machines. We went to the Ubuntu LTS because our volunteers could use UCK to easily customize an Ubuntu release to include our additional programs and apps, but with the Gnome Shell and the fundamental actions of Gnome taking a radical turn, Mint will still offer the "standard" Gnome environment.
Change can be good but I think the remodeling of KDE and now Gnome has or will set us back to square one, as far as new users go.
From a stability and usability standpoint, Mint is doing the right thing by keeping the status quo.
Quoting:the KDE4 devs failed to include -- apparently on purpose, despite widespread requests for it by KDE users
Not accurate.
Many users and some distros (e.g. PCLinuxOS) were able to configure KDE4 to look like and feel as kde3.5. Trinity is doing that too. The KDE team might still do that in the future, you never know. The KDE devs have limited resources. They feel they have a lot more important features they want to work on for now. So they did the next best thing, they made it possible for users and Distros to configure KDE any way they desire.
Quoting:Many users and some distros (e.g. PCLinuxOS) were able to configure KDE4 to look like and feel as kde3.5. Trinity is doing that too.
Not accurate.
I'll let others respond to your first claim, but you're wrong about Trinity. Trinity is not KDE4, configured to look and feel like KDE3.5 -- it's a fork of KDE3.5.
Quoting: Trinity is not KDE4, configured to look and feel like KDE3.5 -- it's a fork of KDE3.5.
You are right about that, what I meant is KDE4 as a platform, Qt, and applications, not necessarily just the interface or the Plasma concept.
I am sure that the KDE team did consider and could have done what Trinity developers are doing, but in their assessment and considering all things involved with code support and maintenance, their decision was to go with the Plasma concept. As a long term KDE user, I happen to agree with that.
Quoting:As a long term KDE user, I happen to agree with that.And, as a FORMER long-time KDE user, I happen to disagree with it, so I am now a very happy Xfce user. ;)
Quoting:And, as a FORMER long-time KDE user, I happen to disagree with it
That is what is so great about FOSS. People agree and disagree all the time, but no one needs to be forced to use what they don't like. FOSS offers many choices.
Not that I am saying you did, but bashing and labeling a group or an individual just because we disagree is not appropriate or constructive.
Quoting:You say that KDE4 gives users several GUI options, but I find it very ironic that the one option the KDE4 devs failed to include -- apparently on purpose, despite widespread requests for it by KDE users -- was the choice to make it look and function like KDE3.5.
I said the same thing to Toyota when I bought my 2010 Camry...I wished they could make it look and feel and act just like the 1991 I bought in high school. Something told me they weren't going to listen...you could say it was money and time...they didn't want to keep spending money to make parts for it and they didn't want their mechanics to waste time repairing it.
The same is true for KDE 4....they don't want to spend time supporting 3.5.10 (1991 Camry) when they're currently producing, maintaining, and coding on 4.6.x (newest line Camry).
Asking someone to do that is, in my opinion, unrealistic.
Quoting:I said the same thing to Toyota ...
@devnet, I am not a big fan of car analogy, but the way you put it, it fits really well.
Quoting:@devnet, I am not a big fan of car analogy, but the way you put it, it fits really well.
I can understand why your point of view would cause you to think that the car analogy fits really well.
Can you understand why I don't?
I think the car analogy works in Bob's favor...
So how is your new Camry's interface different than the old?
Do you have to press the meta key and start to type the word 'brake' into a new interface to find the brake pedal? Or do you still use a brake pedal, gas pedal, transmission shifter, maybe a clutch if it is manual transmission. Have they moved the relative position of the gas and the brake?
Does the dashboard display your speed and the approximate amount of fuel, or have they changed that?
I would guess that the main interface is essentially unchanged, even if some particulars are modified. The 'ride' of the car probably feels different than your old Camry. Of course the 'ride' of your old Camry is different when you got rid of it than when it was new.
I think it is a great analogy. Too bad the gnome team doesn't follow it. People do want things where they expect them to be. Changing things for the sake of change interferes with people's workflow.
Besides why is a 3D desktop the default? There are reports of gnome3 using over 800 megs of memory! I keep hearing this is an interface designed to be appropriate to tablets and phones as well as desktops. If it is that resource hungry it will be a very inappropriate choice for tablets until 2021 or so. Bling and eyecandy should not be the default. The same look could have been achieved in a much simpler manner than with the blingy eyecandy of a 3D based interface.
It just seems like a lot of bad decisions were made and counter arguments were rationalized away. The words I read from the gnome team sound great, but gnome3 shell does pretty much the opposite of the mission statement. I hope the fallback solution is extensible enough to fill my needs.
I'll keep trying to like the shell, but I think it is not quite ready for prime time. I hope for the best and wish the gnome3 team well. I would like to see them work on a DE with less eye candy than the shell, that doesn't distract me from my worklow as much as the shell, and uses far fewer resources.
Until then, I still have XFCE.
Do you have to press the meta key and start to type the word 'brake' into a new interface to find the brake pedal? Or do you still use a brake pedal, gas pedal, transmission shifter, maybe a clutch if it is manual transmission. Have they moved the relative position of the gas and the brake?
Does the dashboard display your speed and the approximate amount of fuel, or have they changed that?
I would guess that the main interface is essentially unchanged, even if some particulars are modified. The 'ride' of the car probably feels different than your old Camry. Of course the 'ride' of your old Camry is different when you got rid of it than when it was new.
I think it is a great analogy. Too bad the gnome team doesn't follow it. People do want things where they expect them to be. Changing things for the sake of change interferes with people's workflow.
Besides why is a 3D desktop the default? There are reports of gnome3 using over 800 megs of memory! I keep hearing this is an interface designed to be appropriate to tablets and phones as well as desktops. If it is that resource hungry it will be a very inappropriate choice for tablets until 2021 or so. Bling and eyecandy should not be the default. The same look could have been achieved in a much simpler manner than with the blingy eyecandy of a 3D based interface.
It just seems like a lot of bad decisions were made and counter arguments were rationalized away. The words I read from the gnome team sound great, but gnome3 shell does pretty much the opposite of the mission statement. I hope the fallback solution is extensible enough to fill my needs.
I'll keep trying to like the shell, but I think it is not quite ready for prime time. I hope for the best and wish the gnome3 team well. I would like to see them work on a DE with less eye candy than the shell, that doesn't distract me from my worklow as much as the shell, and uses far fewer resources.
Until then, I still have XFCE.
Quoting:I think the car analogy works in Bob's favour
Except that the more modern car is often easier to personalise than an older car. My Hyundia is certainly easier to configure for my driving style than the old Ford, I had back in the 90s, was. Not so unfortunately KDE4, re how I like to use a computer desktop, nor Unity nor GNOME Shell, and not GNOME 3 classic as presented on the GNOME demo of GNOME 3.
> Asking someone to do that is, in my opinion, unrealistic.
Probably. So the customer goes and buys a Nissan Altima instead, and probably never buys another Toyota.
Probably. So the customer goes and buys a Nissan Altima instead, and probably never buys another Toyota.
Besides cars or no cars, did anyone manage to boot Natty on an 'older' (~2006) nVidia card?
On my system, beyond grub2 not installing, I only have a "black screen" when Xorg boots. Seems the problem is 'hand-over' to Nouveau, or so I guess. Sadly, the old 'tried' VESA-driver is incompatible with KMS. Meaning no Unity / Natty for me... Even while NV43 (the GeForce 6600 I have) should be supported by Nouveau.
It's really sad Natty is about the fourth Ubuntu-version I tried not booting at all on this system. I thought Ubuntu was good at 'just working out of the box', but I'm afraid I was wrong. It's just as bad as Fedora for the hardware I have.
Sadly, Ubuntu is not user friendly at all, as by default it doesn't say in the console where to go for help (like Gentoo does), hell, it doesn't even have lynx/links or the 'man'-command installed!
I think the framebuffer is meant as an alternative (the result of X -configure lists nouveau, fb and VESA) to nouveau, but sadly it doesn't work either.
So, no Unity for me yet... But I'm determined!
On my system, beyond grub2 not installing, I only have a "black screen" when Xorg boots. Seems the problem is 'hand-over' to Nouveau, or so I guess. Sadly, the old 'tried' VESA-driver is incompatible with KMS. Meaning no Unity / Natty for me... Even while NV43 (the GeForce 6600 I have) should be supported by Nouveau.
It's really sad Natty is about the fourth Ubuntu-version I tried not booting at all on this system. I thought Ubuntu was good at 'just working out of the box', but I'm afraid I was wrong. It's just as bad as Fedora for the hardware I have.
Sadly, Ubuntu is not user friendly at all, as by default it doesn't say in the console where to go for help (like Gentoo does), hell, it doesn't even have lynx/links or the 'man'-command installed!
I think the framebuffer is meant as an alternative (the result of X -configure lists nouveau, fb and VESA) to nouveau, but sadly it doesn't work either.
So, no Unity for me yet... But I'm determined!
@devent:
But Toyota DOES still make that 1991 Camry.
Last I looked, the steering wheel, brakes, and accelerator pedal remain in the same place. You can hop right out of the 1991 and into a 2011 and drive without disorientation. You might have to play with the wiper and cruise controls or feel around for the seat adjustment, but most of the changes are behind the scenes improvements, new additions, or cosmetic improvements.
Had the KDE team demonstrated the talent and good judgment of Toyota, I would still be using KDE.
But Toyota DOES still make that 1991 Camry.
Last I looked, the steering wheel, brakes, and accelerator pedal remain in the same place. You can hop right out of the 1991 and into a 2011 and drive without disorientation. You might have to play with the wiper and cruise controls or feel around for the seat adjustment, but most of the changes are behind the scenes improvements, new additions, or cosmetic improvements.
Had the KDE team demonstrated the talent and good judgment of Toyota, I would still be using KDE.
Quoting:Had the KDE team demonstrated the talent and good judgment of Toyota, I would still be using KDE.Or if Toyota had of used KDE's "good sense", we'd all be driving the Homer Mobile.
@mrider:
More likely having a good laugh and moving on to another showroom.
More likely having a good laugh and moving on to another showroom.
Quoting:You might have to play with the wiper and cruise controls or feel around for the seat adjustment, but most of the changes are behind the scenes improvements, new additions, or cosmetic improvements.
Funny, that is exactly how I feel about KDE 4 compared to KDE 3.5.x and as I indicated in a previous post.
KMenu is still in same place but one has more choices. Menus can float on desktop too.
The same with Panel, except it is more flexible now and you can add, remove or change many of its settings
Icons can be placed on desktop, but one in addition can have folder views, Quick access and many other widgets.
All in all, KDE 4 is the same as KDE 3.5.x but with more features and flexibilities just the same with the Camry.
Quoting:Can you understand why I don't?
I sure can, just like devnet preferred his 1991 Camry over newer models, you prefer KDE 3.5.x. The important thing here is not for me to understand that, but that everyone has a choice. I am sorry the KDE team didn't fulfill your wishes, but I am sure you found and are happy with something else. Again, my whole point is that, whoever doesn't like KDE 4, that is fine, it is their choice, and am not say you did, there is no reason to bash KDE citing inaccurate or even wrong information. e.g. 12 clicks to hide/show panel when it can be configured to be done in simple mouse moves.
Obviously Fettoosh your style of use of a computer desktop is pretty close to what the KDE4 developers consider to be the way in which people will use their desktops.... Mine clearly isn't. Because while you find it quite easy to configure your desktop for Optimal usability I can't..... I can with the current GNOME desktop, and based on what Clem from Linux Mint is saying I should be able to do so with GNOME 3. In addition I was able to do so with the KDE3.5.x desktop, in fact it was that which lead me to where I am now in terms of work flow patterns, by virtue of the fact that I could configure it how I wanted.
Time to pack up
I'll start looking for a different distro then, because 11.04 is the last I will use. I have put Ubuntu on many computers for my family. None of them like Unity (or Gnome Shell for that matter). I guess I'll be forced to update a lot of PCs...
The same with me.
Or I will try to configure gnome to look classic, or I will switch to another desktop like xfce.
The current gnome 2 layout *works*, and I like it very much. Ditching it just doesn't make any sense.
Look at the bright side, guys:
At least GNOME v KDE flame wars will have both sides on equal footing now.
At least GNOME v KDE flame wars will have both sides on equal footing now.
Well, it's why we all use Linux - if you don't like it, you can change it. For myself, I've become a major fan of LXDE. When I get bored with it, I just add compiz toys.
Looking at the LinuxMint XFCE Debian edition this weekend.
Just use Xubuntu or Mint Xfce, you just cant go wrong with xfce, i have never understood the hooha about gnome.
Never liked Gnome in its 1.0, 2.0 incarnations and probably wont like 3.0 they always seemed raw and amateurish to me while KDE always seemed to be more polished well until 4.0 happened.
Then i switched to Xfce and i was saved!, praise be, hallelujah!!
We should start an XFCE vs LXDE flame war wont that be fun.
We should start an XFCE vs LXDE flame war wont that be fun.
no contest, LXDE is still ugly, hackish, and unpolished. Where is there the possibility for a flame war there?
I'm going to wait and see how unity turns out before making any major decisions on distro changes. It's too soon to tell how unity will ultimately suit me. The current rough test versions, though a bit rough are certainly moving in the right direction but beyond that it's hard to say anything with certainty.
Natty Narwhal also failed to install grub2 properly (config file is there but bootloader not installed on HD!), so I haven't even been able to boot it. But I think I just found it, will fire it up using grub1 and then I can join the Unity-conversation!
Not that I ever worked with Gnome; I think KDE3 vs. 4 probably showed it's better that way though. Gnome / non-KDE may like KDE4 better than KDE3 users. In the same way, non-Gnome users may have lower expectations of Unity.
It's a weird feeling, that I'm booting the newest Ubuntu but not the newest Gnome-version.
Not that I ever worked with Gnome; I think KDE3 vs. 4 probably showed it's better that way though. Gnome / non-KDE may like KDE4 better than KDE3 users. In the same way, non-Gnome users may have lower expectations of Unity.
It's a weird feeling, that I'm booting the newest Ubuntu but not the newest Gnome-version.
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