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Open Letter to LXer.com readers from Tom Adelstein about JDShelp.org
Last year, I got a notice from Red Hat saying that they decided to cancel my prepaid subscription to their support network, but that I could buy their Enterprise Linux product and continue with support. Shortly afterward, their CEO, Matthew Szulik announced to the world that Microsoft Windows was a better choice for a desktop than GNU/Linux. I paid for a subscription because I didn't have time to follow the CERT advisories or track bug fix releases of so many projects. At the time, Red Hat seemed to be doing that well and this was my desktop not the server I deployed. I didn't like what Red Hat was doing and wanted to find another distribution to use in both my consulting practice and as my primary desktop. So, I spoke to Jill Ratkevic of DesktopLinux.com and decided to do an article providing results of tests of various Linux desktops. I thought that would be a disciplined way to find the product best suited to me and my clients. Almost everyone provided me with copies of their latest distributions. I set up a laboratory and ran dozens of tests including usability, networking, features, security, stability, package management and hardware compatibility. To provide an example of my tests, I plugged an Apple Studio Display into a Radeon 9000 card I put in a five-year old Gateway 550 and plugged a DRI cable into it just to see what would happen. I wanted to see if a distribution of Linux could recognize that configuration. Microsoft Windows didn't, even with the driver software. Most Linux distributions couldn't handle the scroll mouse protocol and the ATI driver. I got it to work on Linux. After all the tests, I finally settled on Sun's Project Mad Hatter. I just liked it and waited for over three months for its release. It came out as Sun's Java(tm) Desktop System or JDS . I bought a copy and persuaded Sam Hiser to try it. We both really liked the product and decided to write some documentation for it. We told Andy Oram at O'Reilly about JDS and our decision to write some user friendly documentation. He came back to us and the next thing we knew, we were writing a book about JDS. During the course of writing our book, we began participating in the Sun JDS Forum and wound up talking to other JDS users about the product and their experience. We also talked to the executives at Sun in charge of the project and got some fair insight into their strategies. We visited with some of the developers and technical leads on the project. Sam and I concluded that Sun may not have targeted a market we saw emerging. Plenty of people had tried Openoffice.org's Office Suite and Mozilla's browser on Windows. For them, it wasn't much of a push to jump to Sun's Linux desktop. We started seeing posts on the JDS forums for help. When no one from Sun responded, we started to answer the posts as did a lot of other Linux people. I found it surprising how many veterans had quietly adopted JDS and for the same reasons I found it attractive. Then someone came up with the idea to form a community web site and several people wrote that they would like to help. I could see a need for it. Sun had a very defined product aimed at enterprise users. While I could upgrade software applications, apply patches or handle hardware incompatibilities, many of the users drawn to JDS couldn't. A community site would allow use to provide current versions of RPMS built on the JDS, solve hardware problems and write some Linux howtos and compile FAQs. The Open Source Software Institute helped me out by hosting the web site. John Weathersby agreed to sponsor the site and put up the money and resources for the servers and software. We started putting up the latest RPM version s of some of Sun's desktop applications, wrote lots of howtos and gathered documentation and resources. We kept it low keyed until now. We have a community site to support the Sun Java Desktop System. It's located at http://jdshelp.org. During the process, we discovered some interesting things we want to articulate. This list isn't in an special order: 1. Plenty of veteran Linux users like JDS and if they have hardware incompatibilities or want additional applications, they just do it themselves. But overall, the agreement seems to be that JDS makes a nice, stable and quality desktop. Sam and I used StarOffice7 to write a 350+ book. We did the screen shoots and graphics with Gimp and did the whole thing on JDS. 2.The number of users migrating to JDS appears very large. We see significant numbers of people switching everyday. They need some help and they appreciate the experienced Linux people's help. The help is given graciously and refelcts well on the open-source community. 3.Some criticism of Sun from outside the community exists. I'm surprised at the bitterness but I understand it. Some of you may know that I had a role in the early successes at IBM with Linux on the S390 landing the first big account in Winnebago. I have worked with IBM, Gateway and Sun in Linux related areas. I prefer the culture, quality of people and the commitment of Sun over the other firms. I just think they're good people. They value community. No one's perfect, but they did buck the trend and spent plenty bring JDS to market. 4.JDS settled on a stable version of the kernel, GNOME and operating system components to fit the enterprise market, not the small office, home office users. While this has some people claiming that JDS is just SuSE, it's not. I went through the Sun distribution extensively. JDS is a custom build of SuSE, but it's also highly refined and the GNOME desktop has a world-class interface. When testing old hardware which originally ran Windows 98, I was surprised at how well JDS ran on those platforms. So, it's well suited to replace Windows 98 without having to upgrade. 5.Converts cite their use of Mozilla and Openoffice.org as major factors in moving to Linux. Others have gotten their hands on StarOffice7 through K12 schools and Universities as Sun gives them the software for free. I suggest that once someone uses those products the leap to Linux is short. These users also need the most help and that's a motivating factor for the community site. 6.Sun's geared up for supporting enterprise users. That's their focus and the way their infrastructure works. It provides an opening for us to do what we like doing and that's help the single user community. I wrote this letter to let you know about our community site. I also wanted you to understand what went into the decision to form it. I hope this helps. I don't live in a you or me mind set. Instead I believe in a you and me world where people can make choices without having to justify their every move and where we can live together peacefully. I understand verbal and written attacks when justified: I could do without SCO and their friends for example. I hope that people in the GNU/Linux community will give Sun the benefit of the doubt and attempt to understand where they play in the competitive landscape. Room exists for like minded people and if you look deeply, you'll see that JDS serves an important purpose. Respectfully submitted, Tom Adelstein |
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Comments (26)
JDS Traction
It already appears that Sun feels that Solaris and Java are more important than JDS. They are attacking Red Hat currently and when they are done with them they are bound to attack Novell/Suse as well. My problem with Sun is that you have to pay for JDS, where I can download Fedora for free. I can also update Fedora with yum from the repositories, without paying a fee to Red Hat. Of course this is an individual solution. If I were going to run Linux within an Enterprise structure it would be either Novell/Suse or Red Hat. Sun has left me to uncertain of what they want for their future and the future of their customers.
zjim, I spoke to the head of engineering for Desktop Software Engineering at Sun in an interview for my book and for two different articles I wrote. I spoke to the head of marketing for JDS Linux and the head of the JDS Linux project. I meet with them in person, conducted interviews over the phone, etc. They are extremely committed to Linux.
Java is a different matter - it's their lifeline to web services. It's also our lifeline to keeping Longhorn from cornering the IT world.
If you are familiar with the Looking Glass Project, that's a GPL'd open source desktop environment for Linux that will knock Mac and MS out of many markets. It's for Linux - not for JDS only.
Java is a different matter - it's their lifeline to web services. It's also our lifeline to keeping Longhorn from cornering the IT world.
If you are familiar with the Looking Glass Project, that's a GPL'd open source desktop environment for Linux that will knock Mac and MS out of many markets. It's for Linux - not for JDS only.
Double minded
I will use Sun terminology:
As a "hobbyist", as a Linux user, similar to "Solaris which is Sun's version of Linux", I build "jalopies" and I'm a "jalopyist" because I use open source software. Linux of course "is Unix" and therefore SCO has every right to persue their current legal proceedings against IBM. "Corporations cannot afford the risk" that Linux might present because and Sun is "proud that Solaris is fully indemnified with SCO". Nobody would use Linux in enterprise IT according to Sun.
McNealy says, "We can indemnify our users and if anybody's nervous about [IBM Unix flavour] AIX or Linux we've got Solaris on x86 [32-bit processors] and Solaris in the data centre. We run like the wind. We're open. There are no down sides." Notice that Linux is grouped as evil IBM-ware that isn't safe for governments to use.
Scott says, "To say that Linux is a threat to Solaris is like saying mySQL is a threat to Oracle 9i". McNealy is a staunch advocate of protected, patented, intellectual property... and the legal defense of those properties through frivilous lawsuits.
How does Sun view companies like Red Hat, SUSE, Mandrake?? McNealy says, "We're down to three - IBM, Microsoft and Sun. The rest is collateral damage." With regards to IBM and HP's Linux involvement, he says their use of Linux is "a leapfrog to the past."
Now in all fairness.. we're talking about Sun's thoughts way back in 2003. This is 2004 and quite frankly, Sun has changed it's feelings towards Linux. "Linux is our friend." ... now says Scott McNealy. Sun really, really is guarding its words with regards to Linux. They've been given strict orders to not play the typical Solaris card against Linux... it's important to gain the trust of the marketplace first, then turn them the direction where you really want them to go.
However, Sun has made it very apparent that they are pro-open source only when it does NOT affect their own "intellectual property". Sun has made it clear that for Sun to "lose control" over Java would be "bad" for Java. Similar statements are used against open source by a company located in Redmond folks. Do not be deceived.
So let's spin the new Sun.. ok??
1. Sun provides Red Hat today!
Why download Red Hat when you can BUY A SUN (HW) PRODUCT with it preinstalled and working.
2. Sun doesn't care what OS you run. (it's true.. they said it!!)
YOU CODE EVERYTHING TO SUN ONE ($$$$$$) stack and it doesn't matter what the underlying OS is.
What's Sun's true motivation here? Linux is only useful to Sun if it allows them to get their foot in the door to sell you Solaris or Sun proprietary hardware. They are banking on the long term, belieiving they'll at least be able to get the Sun ONE stack into place.. and then when the customer complains about how the Sun ONE stack runs on Linux, they can then offer to take them away from the "hobbyist" OS and back to something REAL... Solaris.
Sun will use (I mean that in the bad sense of the word) Linux to create their Sun-only world vision. A world where Solaris and NOT Linux is the OS, where Sun Java and Sun ONE (not IBM, not BEA, not JBoss) provide the application "stack" for your infrastructure.
Sun is free to execute their strategy, but at the end of the day, the only things Sun is concerned about is protecting Sun and it's corporate intellectual property assets. PERIOD.
As a "hobbyist", as a Linux user, similar to "Solaris which is Sun's version of Linux", I build "jalopies" and I'm a "jalopyist" because I use open source software. Linux of course "is Unix" and therefore SCO has every right to persue their current legal proceedings against IBM. "Corporations cannot afford the risk" that Linux might present because and Sun is "proud that Solaris is fully indemnified with SCO". Nobody would use Linux in enterprise IT according to Sun.
McNealy says, "We can indemnify our users and if anybody's nervous about [IBM Unix flavour] AIX or Linux we've got Solaris on x86 [32-bit processors] and Solaris in the data centre. We run like the wind. We're open. There are no down sides." Notice that Linux is grouped as evil IBM-ware that isn't safe for governments to use.
Scott says, "To say that Linux is a threat to Solaris is like saying mySQL is a threat to Oracle 9i". McNealy is a staunch advocate of protected, patented, intellectual property... and the legal defense of those properties through frivilous lawsuits.
How does Sun view companies like Red Hat, SUSE, Mandrake?? McNealy says, "We're down to three - IBM, Microsoft and Sun. The rest is collateral damage." With regards to IBM and HP's Linux involvement, he says their use of Linux is "a leapfrog to the past."
Now in all fairness.. we're talking about Sun's thoughts way back in 2003. This is 2004 and quite frankly, Sun has changed it's feelings towards Linux. "Linux is our friend." ... now says Scott McNealy. Sun really, really is guarding its words with regards to Linux. They've been given strict orders to not play the typical Solaris card against Linux... it's important to gain the trust of the marketplace first, then turn them the direction where you really want them to go.
However, Sun has made it very apparent that they are pro-open source only when it does NOT affect their own "intellectual property". Sun has made it clear that for Sun to "lose control" over Java would be "bad" for Java. Similar statements are used against open source by a company located in Redmond folks. Do not be deceived.
So let's spin the new Sun.. ok??
1. Sun provides Red Hat today!
Why download Red Hat when you can BUY A SUN (HW) PRODUCT with it preinstalled and working.
2. Sun doesn't care what OS you run. (it's true.. they said it!!)
YOU CODE EVERYTHING TO SUN ONE ($$$$$$) stack and it doesn't matter what the underlying OS is.
What's Sun's true motivation here? Linux is only useful to Sun if it allows them to get their foot in the door to sell you Solaris or Sun proprietary hardware. They are banking on the long term, belieiving they'll at least be able to get the Sun ONE stack into place.. and then when the customer complains about how the Sun ONE stack runs on Linux, they can then offer to take them away from the "hobbyist" OS and back to something REAL... Solaris.
Sun will use (I mean that in the bad sense of the word) Linux to create their Sun-only world vision. A world where Solaris and NOT Linux is the OS, where Sun Java and Sun ONE (not IBM, not BEA, not JBoss) provide the application "stack" for your infrastructure.
Sun is free to execute their strategy, but at the end of the day, the only things Sun is concerned about is protecting Sun and it's corporate intellectual property assets. PERIOD.
Chris. I can appreciate your thoughts since we're friends. I don't think other readers will realize that you say almost everything with a little tongue in cheek. Your post was funny, though.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 1:48 PM
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 1:48 PM
That was giving you a break Tom. You know I could have said much worse things about Sun with regards to their "support" of Linux, open source and free software in general.
I'm not saying they can't become an ally... but they certainly aren't today. Sun's current Linux motto is "Destroy after use."
I'm not saying they can't become an ally... but they certainly aren't today. Sun's current Linux motto is "Destroy after use."
I edited my earlier response before I saw yours. I don't know that about Sun and I've met with plenty of the execs. I also worked with them in the old days when they had a lot to be arrogant about. None of the old guys sit in the chairs any more. It's all new, young and very committed people like Peder Ullander and Curtis Sasaki. Those two guys are committed to their the souls of their feet (spelling correct). But, that doesn't mean I really believe you're as serious as you sound.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 3:25 PM
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 3:25 PM
I, too at one time had little respect for Sun and their attitude toward linux and linux users, However, with the introduction of JDS I think Sun has realized they do need a real linux plan, and one that doesn't include sliding the JDS user into Solaris. And I think that's the key in Tom's open letter. Yes, they (Sun)were vicious about linux in their past, But, just like people they can change. And Sun, believe it or not, I believe has had a pretty good policy about open source, they just open sourced looking glass, and has supported both Gnome and Mozilla.
Tom.. I certainly do believe in a leopard changing its spots... I know that people can have a radical, 180 degree change in their life. Are you saying that's what has happened at Sun?? I'll admit, I haven't seen it at too many companies.
I feel I have every right to be very wary of anything Sun says. It's sort of like Osama Bin Laden coming to my house and saying he's had a change of heart and would really like to babysit my daughter. Trust me, it's probably going take more than one evening's worth of discussions before I'll let him in the door!
If Sun truly has undergone a radical change (from top to bottom), fantastic!! To be honest, I guess I can't truly say that such a conversion has happened or not. I can only speak based on the rhetoric that Sun has issued publically in the past. About the only apology we've seen is that Sun now says that giving up on 32bit was a mistake (but arguably they said it in a way like "We shouldn't have given up on that old antiquated 32bit junk".. meaning x86 btw and Solaris on x86).
Sun has already spoken on open source Java... and they are totally against it. Yet.. they seem (I cannot validate this) to say they are for open source Solaris... but their Java IP arguments seem to indicate that they'll open source only when then can retain full control. Of course it could be that Sun will just consider any community Solaris as a fork, and continue to just move with their head down. This could work... that way, they just keep doing what they are doing and ignore any of the non-Sun elements. With Java, they don't want to see any other alternative application stacks developed... so they can't afford to use that strategy with Java (and the rest of Sun ONE).
What are your thoughts on this? Do you feel that Sun is going to GPL Java and the rest of the Sun ONE "stack" (or at least several pieces of it)?? That, IMHO, would definitely be a good sign that the leopard is changing its spots.
I don't think Sun necessarily has any real problem with contributing to open source projects, especially when the primary victim is that company based in Redmond. But they still seem a bit stingy with any "intellectual property" that they believe has REAL value. For example, they did open source Looking Glass, but in all fairness, Sun never marketed it for sale did they??
I didn't mean to sound like I was joking. I really don't trust Sun at all as a pro-Linux company. They'll pretty much say anything right now IMHO. But I certainly don't mind eating Humble Pie if I'm wrong... and I truly want to be wrong.
I feel I have every right to be very wary of anything Sun says. It's sort of like Osama Bin Laden coming to my house and saying he's had a change of heart and would really like to babysit my daughter. Trust me, it's probably going take more than one evening's worth of discussions before I'll let him in the door!
If Sun truly has undergone a radical change (from top to bottom), fantastic!! To be honest, I guess I can't truly say that such a conversion has happened or not. I can only speak based on the rhetoric that Sun has issued publically in the past. About the only apology we've seen is that Sun now says that giving up on 32bit was a mistake (but arguably they said it in a way like "We shouldn't have given up on that old antiquated 32bit junk".. meaning x86 btw and Solaris on x86).
Sun has already spoken on open source Java... and they are totally against it. Yet.. they seem (I cannot validate this) to say they are for open source Solaris... but their Java IP arguments seem to indicate that they'll open source only when then can retain full control. Of course it could be that Sun will just consider any community Solaris as a fork, and continue to just move with their head down. This could work... that way, they just keep doing what they are doing and ignore any of the non-Sun elements. With Java, they don't want to see any other alternative application stacks developed... so they can't afford to use that strategy with Java (and the rest of Sun ONE).
What are your thoughts on this? Do you feel that Sun is going to GPL Java and the rest of the Sun ONE "stack" (or at least several pieces of it)?? That, IMHO, would definitely be a good sign that the leopard is changing its spots.
I don't think Sun necessarily has any real problem with contributing to open source projects, especially when the primary victim is that company based in Redmond. But they still seem a bit stingy with any "intellectual property" that they believe has REAL value. For example, they did open source Looking Glass, but in all fairness, Sun never marketed it for sale did they??
I didn't mean to sound like I was joking. I really don't trust Sun at all as a pro-Linux company. They'll pretty much say anything right now IMHO. But I certainly don't mind eating Humble Pie if I'm wrong... and I truly want to be wrong.
I have to weigh in on the side of being rather nervous about anything from Sun, and anything Linux/x86 related in particular. As I have said elsewhere, Sun surely has done some wonderful things, but they have more than balanced that by their psychotic behavior (as a corp, and McNealy in particular). The OP is brilliant in illustrating this.
They are going to have to re-establish a track record, perhaps under new management.
They are going to have to re-establish a track record, perhaps under new management.
Chris, back in 1998 I developed a mail and calendaring client that ran on Solaris and connected to Exchange. I did it for Ericsson because some person talked them into implementing Microsoft Exchange while 30% of their users ran Solaris. I got no support from Sun. None. Ultimately it turned into an IBM solution and it ran on Linux.
I also worked with Sun on other projects when I worked for Cap Gemini. We shared a floor with them in Dallas. I thought they had some really nice people, but I strongly disliked some of the people in their management. Also, their sales people were often arrogant.
Those people are long gone. The President is a long haired guy who gets misquoted all the time. I know a media bias exists because every time I talk to someone about Sun, I get this kick back. But, I have worked closely with people at Sun who now have a lot of influence on the direction of the company. These folks are left over from StarOffice Division, from Cobalt and from the Educational group. And I'll say they do have an influence on the direction of the company. The person in charge of the education - which is a big part of Sun's business - is one of the most committed open-soruce people I know.
Sun has recently open sourced many parts of Java under GPL. The most important one is Looking Glass - a desktop component that will work on Linux and make it the best desktop in the world. I've seen it live on two occassion and it's remarkable. It's 100% GPL'd open source. https://lg3d.dev.java.net/ Sun announced they were going to open source Solaris and SCO issued them a warning. Sun's reply - go butt a stump. Sun owns an outright UNIX license from 1986.
Other parts of Java have already been open-sourced like the java desktop components. But some pieces are still held back.
The rest of the stack is under consideration and pressure to be open-sourced internally. But unless you knew the politics of what IBM wants to do, it doesn't make sense. If an OBL exists, he's dressed in a Blue Suit. I even know the guy and I don't trust him. And I don't blame Sun for not trusting him either. If IBM would sign a non-aggression something, then I think Sun would open-source the rest of Java. Here's the rub - IBM with regard to Linux worries me and plenty of other people. So, I think Sun is justified in being cautious.
I'm still a little unnerved by your comparison to Osama and Sun. Even when they were really arrogant, they were a good company. They had plenty of good people working there. They gave lots of money away to educational institutions and they have always been the biggest financial contributor to Gnome, the LDP and all those Sunsites where we downloaded 16 floppy disks worth of Linux.
One other issue exists. Like IBM, Sun has a huge customer base to support. IBM doesn't sell as much Linux as people think. The big OS at IBM is OS/400 - iSeries and AS/400s. I was working on a project in Mississippi tying all the law enforcement databases together for a DHS initiative. Every county used AS/400s. So, like IBM, Sun has these very loyal E650 users. They can't just say - no more Solaris.
Sun has been a big investor in Linux companies - something you may or may not know. But look at the financing rounds and you'll see Sun in there. But, the Linux companies (2 in particular) have been aggressively difficult. It's hard to get things done when your two major partners don't play fair. Remember RH Sparc. Why was that discontinued? I used it to extend the life of a lot of Sparc boxes.
Solaris won't go away, but it's positioned as a server product. Sun will sell the x86 version to traditional Sun customers. But that doesn't mean this huge Linux division they have built under Peder Ullander ( who came from Cobalt BTW) will disappear. They also have a large customer base with JDS.
I'm sorry if you thought I didn't take you seriously. But you have to own up to that somewhat. You have a very dry sense of humor. Also, I've seen you reverse positions before, especially if you get the right data. And I don't think I'm revealing too much if people also know besides being a great technologist that you teach CS.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 9:09 PM
I also worked with Sun on other projects when I worked for Cap Gemini. We shared a floor with them in Dallas. I thought they had some really nice people, but I strongly disliked some of the people in their management. Also, their sales people were often arrogant.
Those people are long gone. The President is a long haired guy who gets misquoted all the time. I know a media bias exists because every time I talk to someone about Sun, I get this kick back. But, I have worked closely with people at Sun who now have a lot of influence on the direction of the company. These folks are left over from StarOffice Division, from Cobalt and from the Educational group. And I'll say they do have an influence on the direction of the company. The person in charge of the education - which is a big part of Sun's business - is one of the most committed open-soruce people I know.
Sun has recently open sourced many parts of Java under GPL. The most important one is Looking Glass - a desktop component that will work on Linux and make it the best desktop in the world. I've seen it live on two occassion and it's remarkable. It's 100% GPL'd open source. https://lg3d.dev.java.net/ Sun announced they were going to open source Solaris and SCO issued them a warning. Sun's reply - go butt a stump. Sun owns an outright UNIX license from 1986.
Other parts of Java have already been open-sourced like the java desktop components. But some pieces are still held back.
The rest of the stack is under consideration and pressure to be open-sourced internally. But unless you knew the politics of what IBM wants to do, it doesn't make sense. If an OBL exists, he's dressed in a Blue Suit. I even know the guy and I don't trust him. And I don't blame Sun for not trusting him either. If IBM would sign a non-aggression something, then I think Sun would open-source the rest of Java. Here's the rub - IBM with regard to Linux worries me and plenty of other people. So, I think Sun is justified in being cautious.
I'm still a little unnerved by your comparison to Osama and Sun. Even when they were really arrogant, they were a good company. They had plenty of good people working there. They gave lots of money away to educational institutions and they have always been the biggest financial contributor to Gnome, the LDP and all those Sunsites where we downloaded 16 floppy disks worth of Linux.
One other issue exists. Like IBM, Sun has a huge customer base to support. IBM doesn't sell as much Linux as people think. The big OS at IBM is OS/400 - iSeries and AS/400s. I was working on a project in Mississippi tying all the law enforcement databases together for a DHS initiative. Every county used AS/400s. So, like IBM, Sun has these very loyal E650 users. They can't just say - no more Solaris.
Sun has been a big investor in Linux companies - something you may or may not know. But look at the financing rounds and you'll see Sun in there. But, the Linux companies (2 in particular) have been aggressively difficult. It's hard to get things done when your two major partners don't play fair. Remember RH Sparc. Why was that discontinued? I used it to extend the life of a lot of Sparc boxes.
Solaris won't go away, but it's positioned as a server product. Sun will sell the x86 version to traditional Sun customers. But that doesn't mean this huge Linux division they have built under Peder Ullander ( who came from Cobalt BTW) will disappear. They also have a large customer base with JDS.
I'm sorry if you thought I didn't take you seriously. But you have to own up to that somewhat. You have a very dry sense of humor. Also, I've seen you reverse positions before, especially if you get the right data. And I don't think I'm revealing too much if people also know besides being a great technologist that you teach CS.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 9:09 PM
Thanks for your insight on this Tom. I'm certainly not anti-Sun. I just never figured them as a pro-Linux advocate.
However, I don't fear IBM either on this. They've certainly made many a contribution to Linux as well. Both financially and code wise.
You just never heard about Sun's contributions. All you heard was how Linux was a "toy" OS strictly for "hobbyists" and how open source was designed to destroy Sun's "intellectual property" rights.
Like I said, I definitely want to be wrong... hope JDS succeeds. Hope that Sun does more to place Linux into their enterprise platforms. Sure, they view Solaris as a key asset, but in reality... it's dead-ware (with no apologies to Sun.. they sat on their high horse and they blew it). And I think that scares them. Obviously IBM and HP deal with the same kind of issues on that. At first, I figured IBM would be the first to go all Linux... but now, oddly enough, it might be HP (talking about HPUX). HP, a company who in the mid-nineties promised everyone that all computers would be running NT in the future.
However, I don't fear IBM either on this. They've certainly made many a contribution to Linux as well. Both financially and code wise.
You just never heard about Sun's contributions. All you heard was how Linux was a "toy" OS strictly for "hobbyists" and how open source was designed to destroy Sun's "intellectual property" rights.
Like I said, I definitely want to be wrong... hope JDS succeeds. Hope that Sun does more to place Linux into their enterprise platforms. Sure, they view Solaris as a key asset, but in reality... it's dead-ware (with no apologies to Sun.. they sat on their high horse and they blew it). And I think that scares them. Obviously IBM and HP deal with the same kind of issues on that. At first, I figured IBM would be the first to go all Linux... but now, oddly enough, it might be HP (talking about HPUX). HP, a company who in the mid-nineties promised everyone that all computers would be running NT in the future.
Chris,
I recently did two articles for Forbes - one on Open Source Software and the other on JBOSS. During the course of the project, I heard from outsiders that a media bias existed against Sun that was left over from Microsoft's attempt to trample UNIX.
I know that misquotes are rampant in the media.
The distinction that the people at Sun - and now Novell and Red Hat - make is between Enterprise quality and development quality. They make the same distinctions about Java.
So, I never got the "hobbyist" thing from them. I did get a definite worry about the confusion between developers' Linux and Professional Linux.
I heard those same words come out of the spokesperson for Red Hat when I interviewed her for an article about what was going to be called "the Red Hat Project". Of course, it became the Fedora Project. They wanted everyone to know that Linux Projects were worthwhle - but not for business.
I also acknowledge your comments about IBM. But, I don't agree about their commitment to Linux. Some people have a commitment but the guys at the top of the software group dislike Linux. Save that for another day.
In my experience with the Open Source Software Institute, I saw who supported the validation effort for OpenSSL getting "source code" validated. It was HP. And you're right -- they do support open-source.
My only concern at the moment is JDS and getting people straight about it. The JDSHelp site got launched yesterday. So, I got to see the response. I can tell you that people in Asia, Europe and South America have high praise for Sun.
That was interesting to watch.
I recently did two articles for Forbes - one on Open Source Software and the other on JBOSS. During the course of the project, I heard from outsiders that a media bias existed against Sun that was left over from Microsoft's attempt to trample UNIX.
I know that misquotes are rampant in the media.
The distinction that the people at Sun - and now Novell and Red Hat - make is between Enterprise quality and development quality. They make the same distinctions about Java.
So, I never got the "hobbyist" thing from them. I did get a definite worry about the confusion between developers' Linux and Professional Linux.
I heard those same words come out of the spokesperson for Red Hat when I interviewed her for an article about what was going to be called "the Red Hat Project". Of course, it became the Fedora Project. They wanted everyone to know that Linux Projects were worthwhle - but not for business.
I also acknowledge your comments about IBM. But, I don't agree about their commitment to Linux. Some people have a commitment but the guys at the top of the software group dislike Linux. Save that for another day.
In my experience with the Open Source Software Institute, I saw who supported the validation effort for OpenSSL getting "source code" validated. It was HP. And you're right -- they do support open-source.
My only concern at the moment is JDS and getting people straight about it. The JDSHelp site got launched yesterday. So, I got to see the response. I can tell you that people in Asia, Europe and South America have high praise for Sun.
That was interesting to watch.
CERT/Updates
# apt-get dist-upgrade
or
# up2date
Not that hard. No subscription required. Can be easily automated. Bashing JDS is bad but somehow bashing Red Hat is good?
Not that hard. No subscription required. Can be easily automated. Bashing JDS is bad but somehow bashing Red Hat is good?
Sorry you got the impression I was bashing Red Hat. I didn't understand the Enterprise play they were making at the time and of course Fedora had not come along at that time.
The main thng is that JDS is an enterprise build and Red Hat also provides an enterprise build of a desktop: Older kernel and libs. Businesses can't depend on cutting edge Linux because they can't afford their systems to break. So, they go with older kernels.
I would use Red Hat's Enterprise Desktop. I also think they did me a favor ending the support for their Retail Product.
I just wanted to convey why I went looking.
I have a completely different view of things now.
JDS is an enterprise class product because the run time was built by SuSE just like SLES - which costs $598 and you can get JDS for $50.
Just want to pont out the difference between enterpriseware and Linux with the new kernel, libs, desktop, etc. SuSE sells a lot of SLES boxes in spite of the price. It's version 8. SuSE Pro - Version 9.1 is a great product. Just different.
I apologize I didn't make that clear. This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 2:05 PM
The main thng is that JDS is an enterprise build and Red Hat also provides an enterprise build of a desktop: Older kernel and libs. Businesses can't depend on cutting edge Linux because they can't afford their systems to break. So, they go with older kernels.
I would use Red Hat's Enterprise Desktop. I also think they did me a favor ending the support for their Retail Product.
I just wanted to convey why I went looking.
I have a completely different view of things now.
JDS is an enterprise class product because the run time was built by SuSE just like SLES - which costs $598 and you can get JDS for $50.
Just want to pont out the difference between enterpriseware and Linux with the new kernel, libs, desktop, etc. SuSE sells a lot of SLES boxes in spite of the price. It's version 8. SuSE Pro - Version 9.1 is a great product. Just different.
I apologize I didn't make that clear. This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 2:05 PM
All I know is that I've been running Linux in the enterprise for many years now (over 10 years) and Sun wasn't there for me. I don't really appreciate them slapping a distro together and bashing all the people who helped make it possible and then thinking they can wave a magic wand and make everything better.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 7:05 PM
I can see you're angry but someone said we're never angry for the reason we think.
I appreciate your commitment to GNU/Linux. But if you used NFS, then Sun was there for you. Also, their $25,000 Sparc 5 model 80's probably drove lots of developers to build Linux. But that was then and we can't do anything about it. The fact is that Sun is not the same company as the one who wasn't there for you.
Also, I don't think they slapped together a distro. It took a lot of work. They didn't wave a magic wand over it.
What they did was make a distro that has captured a big market share and brought over a lot of people who would be locked out of Linux for various reasons.
So, what's going on NOW - in the present time - is that those users need support. Your attitude and anger means that maybe someone won't try Linux because you won't give up your position. When people blast away, that might get picked up in a search and someone says, "well I was going to try Linux and heard about JDS but then these Linux guys hate Sun and say that their distro was thrown together. So, I guess I'll stick with this XP virus magnet."
See, if Matthew Szulik doesn't want a desktop and says Windows is better that also doesn't serve users. So you and people who continue this angry stuff over some notion that may or may not be true, hinder others.
All I would ask is for you to consider the consequences. It's ultimately each of our choices and we will choose. Even not chosing is a choice.
I'm not angry, although you're starting to get me there. :) Don't blame me for Sun making all the stupid public statements they have made. I would be more than happy to help people with a "Linux" distribution but since they named it "Java Desktop System" and buried the GPL 200 subdirectories deep I guess I can't be of much help. As far as NFS I'm not so sure there is anything to be thankful about there since I rarely used NFS on Linux and it can be a real pain on Solaris/AIX/HPUX and other OSs I use, but if you want to start going down this road where did SUSE (and JDS) get their package management system from? Yeah, thanks for nothin' Red Hat. I have helped many people over the years, but to be honest it really doesn't matter to me if people use it or not as long as they don't tell me I can't use it.
I would rather Sun just went ahead and put Solaris x86 under their Java and sold it as JDS. At least they wouldn't look so stupid when they bad mouth it in public. By the way, why didn't they just put Solaris x86 under it since Solaris is supposed to be so much better?
A slam search: [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=sun slams red hat]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=sun slams ...[/url]
I didn't make these statements. When does "NOW" start? Most of the statements you will find in the above search have been made less than a month ago. Heck, they even said they would go after SUSE. This message was edited Jul 13, 2004 1:03 AM
I would rather Sun just went ahead and put Solaris x86 under their Java and sold it as JDS. At least they wouldn't look so stupid when they bad mouth it in public. By the way, why didn't they just put Solaris x86 under it since Solaris is supposed to be so much better?
A slam search: [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=sun slams red hat]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=sun slams ...[/url]
I didn't make these statements. When does "NOW" start? Most of the statements you will find in the above search have been made less than a month ago. Heck, they even said they would go after SUSE. This message was edited Jul 13, 2004 1:03 AM
Help is good, but...
how many of us LXer readers are using JDS? I don't know nothing about it, so how could I offer adequate help?
I have this faint feeling that using SUSE Linux 9.1 Professional is not going to be much good in the "help JDS department".
I have this faint feeling that using SUSE Linux 9.1 Professional is not going to be much good in the "help JDS department".
The letter was not meant to recruit you to help with the site. If you use SuSE thought, then you would understand that JDS uses the SUSE enterprise Linux build and it has a gnome 2.2-2.4 desktop. It still uses Yast2 and installs like SuSE.
That's still not the point. I've known Dave since 1999 and I know he's about community. So, I thought this was a good place to do an open letter. Since you say you don't know about JDS, that's really OK - but this letter is here to inform you that JDS is massively popular. In the first three weeks of their release in December of last year, they sold over a million copies, turned a profit and paid for all their R&D and development costs.
If someone knows you are a Linux guy and says have you heard of this -- you have. You might also find it interesting that Openoffice.org and StarOffice together now have 19.6% of the office productivity market.
Manu of the people we meet on the JDS forum have come over from Microsoft and then did it after they started using Openoffice.org and/or Mozilla on Microsoft. That gave them a comfort level to try JDS.
I've installed JDS on some developers boxes that were using Windows XP and they were very grateful. They were Java developers who used JBOSS on Linux servers but hadn't found a desktop they liked until JDS. It surprised them to see they had an enterprise Linux desktop that could use to run their development software.
If we can help them make the transition, then I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.
That's still not the point. I've known Dave since 1999 and I know he's about community. So, I thought this was a good place to do an open letter. Since you say you don't know about JDS, that's really OK - but this letter is here to inform you that JDS is massively popular. In the first three weeks of their release in December of last year, they sold over a million copies, turned a profit and paid for all their R&D and development costs.
If someone knows you are a Linux guy and says have you heard of this -- you have. You might also find it interesting that Openoffice.org and StarOffice together now have 19.6% of the office productivity market.
Manu of the people we meet on the JDS forum have come over from Microsoft and then did it after they started using Openoffice.org and/or Mozilla on Microsoft. That gave them a comfort level to try JDS.
I've installed JDS on some developers boxes that were using Windows XP and they were very grateful. They were Java developers who used JBOSS on Linux servers but hadn't found a desktop they liked until JDS. It surprised them to see they had an enterprise Linux desktop that could use to run their development software.
If we can help them make the transition, then I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.
A million copies? How many of those are actually in use? How many copies of the latest version of Solaris x86 have been sold and how many are in use? ~20% running OpenOffice/StarOffice? Not that I wouldn't mind those numbers being true I just find them hard to believe. I would be very interested in knowing where these numbers come from.
Even so, recent statements by Sun is enough reason for me to not touch JDS with a 10 foot pole. If they are really turning pro-Linux then I say give up some credit where credit is due rather than trying to hide it and blast other great contributors. The only Linux statements I have seen coming from Sun lately have been a Red Hat bash fest. Unlike Sun, Red Hat is actually a very good member of the Linux community. I do appreciate OpenOffice.org so it's not like I don't like everything Sun. I also have many large Sun servers running Solaris but I have to tell you that lately the feelings are that we need to replace them with Linux wherever possible, and that would not be JDS. We also run a lot of Red Hat/Oracle servers. It's not like I'm 100% pro Red Hat either, I also run Debian on older Sparc and Alpha boxes, at least until they die.
Even so, recent statements by Sun is enough reason for me to not touch JDS with a 10 foot pole. If they are really turning pro-Linux then I say give up some credit where credit is due rather than trying to hide it and blast other great contributors. The only Linux statements I have seen coming from Sun lately have been a Red Hat bash fest. Unlike Sun, Red Hat is actually a very good member of the Linux community. I do appreciate OpenOffice.org so it's not like I don't like everything Sun. I also have many large Sun servers running Solaris but I have to tell you that lately the feelings are that we need to replace them with Linux wherever possible, and that would not be JDS. We also run a lot of Red Hat/Oracle servers. It's not like I'm 100% pro Red Hat either, I also run Debian on older Sparc and Alpha boxes, at least until they die.
I forget the name of the General who Patton rescued but when the Nazi's asked him to surrender during the Battle of the Bulge, he replied "Nuts".
I'm willing to answer questions and provide support for my answers, but I wonder if anything would ever satisfy you. You seem very committed to a position and knowledge based on media information misquotes and your own bias.
You basically called me a liar. But, I'm not a liar and the figures exist to prove up the number of sales and percentage of market I quoted.
In fact, they were mentioned by the main stream press today!
Since you choose to insult I won't dignify your behavior with an more answers.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 9:26 PM
I'm willing to answer questions and provide support for my answers, but I wonder if anything would ever satisfy you. You seem very committed to a position and knowledge based on media information misquotes and your own bias.
You basically called me a liar. But, I'm not a liar and the figures exist to prove up the number of sales and percentage of market I quoted.
In fact, they were mentioned by the main stream press today!
Since you choose to insult I won't dignify your behavior with an more answers.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 9:26 PM
Excuse me? How did I insult you? I just asked where the numbers came from because I don't usually put numbers out without backing them up with a reference (which still hasn't been provided BTW). Honestly, I am just looking for truth. Apparently I type much harsher sounding than I think. And how would me saying that I wouldn't touch JDS be insulting? If it makes you feel any better I also will never touch Lindows. :) I am very happy with what I use. I use a Linux based distro (the one I am typing this in is not even one that has been mentioned). If I offended you I am sorry.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 10:38 PM
This article: http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2163896330.html
talks about the fact that 40 million copies of staroffice/openoffice.org have been sold - that's also discounting openoffice.org because use is measured on downloads and Sun went with a lower number than downloads.
This article: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/7285339.htm?1c
talks about the original announcement in China. Other articles discuss the implementation occurring in the first week of June. Sun has also has large deployments in several other countries. In the US and Canada major deals exist, for example Ontario at 2.5 million.
Sun sells Star Office through distributors in China, Korea and Japan as Star Suite. In Europe they sell through different distributors. In South America they sell through Sun Products -- biggest market is Brazil.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 10:08 PM This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 10:09 PM
talks about the fact that 40 million copies of staroffice/openoffice.org have been sold - that's also discounting openoffice.org because use is measured on downloads and Sun went with a lower number than downloads.
This article: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/7285339.htm?1c
talks about the original announcement in China. Other articles discuss the implementation occurring in the first week of June. Sun has also has large deployments in several other countries. In the US and Canada major deals exist, for example Ontario at 2.5 million.
Sun sells Star Office through distributors in China, Korea and Japan as Star Suite. In Europe they sell through different distributors. In South America they sell through Sun Products -- biggest market is Brazil.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 10:08 PM This message was edited Jul 12, 2004 10:09 PM
A sincere thanks for posting supporting links. That helps considerably although I believe it verifies that your original post was in error. The article talks about a million copies of StarOffice being sold, not a million copies of JDS. It also doesn't specifically say that 40 million copies of StarOffice have been sold. It specifically says that is how many have been distributed with the addition of the 1 million new copies that have been sold. I can see how that could easily be implied though, it would be nice to see this clearly. At any rate, 40 million distributed is nothing to sneeze at, along with the many that have surely been passed around behind the curtains. I would surely agree that Star/OpenOffice is "one of the most popular" office suits.
I can't get to the article on the Mercury News site without registering (which I'm not going to do). Maybe the Mercury news article verifies that JDS is "massively popular". I'm not quite sure that I agree that making a deal with the Chinese government automatically makes it massively popular. The first article didn't mention any numbers. I do recall seeing this announcement and I couldn't help but wonder why the Chinese government would choose JDS over their own Red Flag Linux. That one still puzzles me. Again, I'm *not* trying to call you a liar, I just want to see the sources. I also said that I *hope* that is true about the ~20% for Star/OpenOffice. Was that in the mercury article or is 40 million about ~20% of office app users? I just didn't see that number explained.
My entire family uses OpenOffice on Linux ever since Sun bought Star Division, opened it up and released it as OpenOffice.org (thank you Sun!) and now my shop has converted partially to it ("my shop" being one small shop in a very large company who actually deals directly with Ballmer for their M$ software, and yes I have to take two showers every time I come home from work) but outside of that I don't really know anyone that uses it. You can't really figure how many are actually in use though as you don't know how many have been passed around in Linux distros and you don't know how many people downloaded it just to check it out and then end up not using it. I can't think of any way to put a number on actual copies in use just like you can't put a number on actual copies of Linux distributions in use. I would assume that most of the 1 million sold would be used, and then there are people like me who use it and didn't download it directly. Again, I would like to see that number go to 100%, and soon.
If someone wants to pay Sun $100/yr per seat for JDS by all means, more power to them. They won't need my help anyway because that's what they are paying Sun for, right? I don't know why we waste $2,000 per RHAS when nobody ever calls Red Hat for support on anything anyway. We're more than capable of solving any problem that comes up, and we always do, thanks mostly to the GPL and having the source. But spending the 2 grand per server is a "corporate" kind of decision. I don't really mind it though, Red Hat does a lot for Linux and other open source projects and if my company can afford to pay them then great. It keeps them doing what they are doing.
Again, I apologize if I offended you personally, that wasn't the intention. I think most of us Linux users like to see hard numbers with supporting data rather than going on blind faith. Forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical considering that you will benefit from the success of JDS (your JDS book). I can see how this could create "bias" on your part. I really have no reason to be biased. I don't stand to profit from any distro doing better than another. Seeing hard numbers will help everyone. These are the kinds of questions I would like to run by any news article I see posting numbers. Most don't give you the benefit for public feedback though. I hope you understand and I thank you for bearing (bantering) with me. This message was edited Jul 13, 2004 1:32 AM
I can't get to the article on the Mercury News site without registering (which I'm not going to do). Maybe the Mercury news article verifies that JDS is "massively popular". I'm not quite sure that I agree that making a deal with the Chinese government automatically makes it massively popular. The first article didn't mention any numbers. I do recall seeing this announcement and I couldn't help but wonder why the Chinese government would choose JDS over their own Red Flag Linux. That one still puzzles me. Again, I'm *not* trying to call you a liar, I just want to see the sources. I also said that I *hope* that is true about the ~20% for Star/OpenOffice. Was that in the mercury article or is 40 million about ~20% of office app users? I just didn't see that number explained.
My entire family uses OpenOffice on Linux ever since Sun bought Star Division, opened it up and released it as OpenOffice.org (thank you Sun!) and now my shop has converted partially to it ("my shop" being one small shop in a very large company who actually deals directly with Ballmer for their M$ software, and yes I have to take two showers every time I come home from work) but outside of that I don't really know anyone that uses it. You can't really figure how many are actually in use though as you don't know how many have been passed around in Linux distros and you don't know how many people downloaded it just to check it out and then end up not using it. I can't think of any way to put a number on actual copies in use just like you can't put a number on actual copies of Linux distributions in use. I would assume that most of the 1 million sold would be used, and then there are people like me who use it and didn't download it directly. Again, I would like to see that number go to 100%, and soon.
If someone wants to pay Sun $100/yr per seat for JDS by all means, more power to them. They won't need my help anyway because that's what they are paying Sun for, right? I don't know why we waste $2,000 per RHAS when nobody ever calls Red Hat for support on anything anyway. We're more than capable of solving any problem that comes up, and we always do, thanks mostly to the GPL and having the source. But spending the 2 grand per server is a "corporate" kind of decision. I don't really mind it though, Red Hat does a lot for Linux and other open source projects and if my company can afford to pay them then great. It keeps them doing what they are doing.
Again, I apologize if I offended you personally, that wasn't the intention. I think most of us Linux users like to see hard numbers with supporting data rather than going on blind faith. Forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical considering that you will benefit from the success of JDS (your JDS book). I can see how this could create "bias" on your part. I really have no reason to be biased. I don't stand to profit from any distro doing better than another. Seeing hard numbers will help everyone. These are the kinds of questions I would like to run by any news article I see posting numbers. Most don't give you the benefit for public feedback though. I hope you understand and I thank you for bearing (bantering) with me. This message was edited Jul 13, 2004 1:32 AM
I'm surprised you didn't get the second article opened - I think you would have seen that wasn't a misquote.
Sun's McNealy announces Linux deal with Chinese government
By Dean Takahashi
Mercury News
Sun Microsystems Chief Executive Scott McNealy always seemed like he was tilting at windmills when he said Sun would challenge Microsoft's dominance on the desktop computer.
But McNealy announced today that the Chinese government has pledged to deploy a million computers in the next year using Sun's Linux desktop software. The cost: $50 per license for Sun's desktop software, which includes its Star Office 7.0 productivity program that is a clone of Microsoft's Office suite. Microsoft Office can cost more than $400 a copy.
The China Standard Software Co., a consortium of government-funded companies, selected Sun as its preferred technology partner to deploy Linux-based desktops. The deal is part of China's deliberate policy to diversify away from Microsoft. Other governments in Europe and Asia have embraced a similar strategy, as has the state of Massachusetts. China has pledged to deploy 200 million copies of open standards-based desktop software.
That's just one of many.
Sun's McNealy announces Linux deal with Chinese government
By Dean Takahashi
Mercury News
Sun Microsystems Chief Executive Scott McNealy always seemed like he was tilting at windmills when he said Sun would challenge Microsoft's dominance on the desktop computer.
But McNealy announced today that the Chinese government has pledged to deploy a million computers in the next year using Sun's Linux desktop software. The cost: $50 per license for Sun's desktop software, which includes its Star Office 7.0 productivity program that is a clone of Microsoft's Office suite. Microsoft Office can cost more than $400 a copy.
The China Standard Software Co., a consortium of government-funded companies, selected Sun as its preferred technology partner to deploy Linux-based desktops. The deal is part of China's deliberate policy to diversify away from Microsoft. Other governments in Europe and Asia have embraced a similar strategy, as has the state of Massachusetts. China has pledged to deploy 200 million copies of open standards-based desktop software.
That's just one of many.
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It's a corporate distribution with different requirement than what you would normally think. I remember reading a story about one large Irish Bank replacing Win98 with JDS but only after the IM client was removed. The reason being that the bank didn't want their employees wasting time IM'ing. I would have thought IM was a powerful business tool if done right but apparently not in Ireland.
SUN has be rather scatter brained as of late as we all know but I think they do understand the corporate market. Consequently the JDShelp.org effort is in everyones interest and an excellent initiative.