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ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Linux Users Speak Out
I've had it! I've been locked in for the last time. No longer will I sit idle and allow choices to be made FOR me. I make the choices around here. When I'm in the market for a printer, I don't want to have to think about which one to get. I want to be able to just go out, browse, pick one, and bring it home. Everything should just work right out of the box right? Wrong! You have to check the Linuxprinting.org Printer Database just to list out printers that you're allowed to buy...that is, if you want them to work with Linux. I say this is a crock. I say it is a sham. There are more than one operating system on the market, and it is high time that companies...large companies...start to understand this. |
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Comments (23)
3 earlier comments in the full thread.
I stumbled across Linux in 1998 or so and this kind of complaint was common then. I even think there was a petition going around then. Things have gotten better over the years but until we have enough people using Linux to make the hardware makers pay attention us users will have to do more research before each purchase. I wish it was not so but the market is still Windows on the x86 platform.
It's also important to let vendors know when they are doing a good job. My Samsung ML1710 monochrome laser is a GDI printer, but Samsung wrote open source Linux drivers for it and it works well. It said Windows, Mac, and Linux right on the box. It's a bit slow, being USB 1.0 and a Linprinter, but it works well for my light printing needs, and is rock bottom inexpensive. Being open source, the drivers are built into Fedora Core and likely other distros, so it just gets autodetected.
I should send an email thanking them for a great product. I haven't. But I should.
I should send an email thanking them for a great product. I haven't. But I should.
pben:
I second that emotion.
While it would be VERY nice to simply know that your printer will work, the situation today is light years ahead of several years ago.
Many thanks are due to what used to be called the Gimp-Print team for delivering some super drivers, but there are many kudos to go around --- Grant Taylor w/foomatic and linuxprint.org come to mind, not to mention the vendors who have helped out with the drivers and/or specs --and many of the newest printers do simply work.
Linux + CUPS + Gimp-Print (or whatever they're calling it these days) make the bad old days a hazy memory.
I second that emotion.
While it would be VERY nice to simply know that your printer will work, the situation today is light years ahead of several years ago.
Many thanks are due to what used to be called the Gimp-Print team for delivering some super drivers, but there are many kudos to go around --- Grant Taylor w/foomatic and linuxprint.org come to mind, not to mention the vendors who have helped out with the drivers and/or specs --and many of the newest printers do simply work.
Linux + CUPS + Gimp-Print (or whatever they're calling it these days) make the bad old days a hazy memory.
sbergman27 - I misidentified (on another post) my Samsung printer is too a ML-1710. At times I had problems with it, but I found at first on older Mandrake distributions I had to let the OS think it was a ML-1210 and it worked fine. When I forgot that trick and switched it to another box it was temporary mayhem. I could not even get it to work loading the driver for ML-1710. Rereading some emails I reverted to the 1210 model and I had a working printer again. [We switch printers too often around here!]
However, with Fedora Core 3 (new to my laptop) it not only detected the printer, but also a usb flash drive. Each was mounted automaticlly and both functioned flawlessly.
However, with Fedora Core 3 (new to my laptop) it not only detected the printer, but also a usb flash drive. Each was mounted automaticlly and both functioned flawlessly.
chalex,
Why is it whining only when you don't agree with what is being said? Perhaps you should actually read instead of assuming eh? Voting with dollars hasn't seemed to do squat in the past...CANON lost a $3k sale with a friend of mine because of linux (he returned their printers) and they didn't give a care about it. They're too big to listen to dollars. It's a drop in the bucket for them. So now, everyone has a chance to show them with numbers.
Whine? I don't think so. I am happy with my HP...but most potential converts I have tried to get to Linux love every single aspect about it but have to go back to Windows because of their printer. And THAT, my friends is a damn shame.
Claus,
After enough signatures are collected, wouldn't that be a nice idea with the magazines? I thought it would be.
Why is it whining only when you don't agree with what is being said? Perhaps you should actually read instead of assuming eh? Voting with dollars hasn't seemed to do squat in the past...CANON lost a $3k sale with a friend of mine because of linux (he returned their printers) and they didn't give a care about it. They're too big to listen to dollars. It's a drop in the bucket for them. So now, everyone has a chance to show them with numbers.
Whine? I don't think so. I am happy with my HP...but most potential converts I have tried to get to Linux love every single aspect about it but have to go back to Windows because of their printer. And THAT, my friends is a damn shame.
Claus,
After enough signatures are collected, wouldn't that be a nice idea with the magazines? I thought it would be.
devnet,
You (and helios) act as though this is the first time that Linux users thought to petition hardware manufacturers. It isn't. Dude, if you think that they don't care about your friend's money, then what in the WORLD makes you think a few signatures will change their mind?
You (and helios) are getting a rough reception because you are barging into a community and making a lot of noise about what we have been doing for years. Listen to the masters, young grasshopper.
And I guess we could just ignore you (and helios) but if you're strident enough, you'll make us all look dumb.
Why don't you do something constructive like build the world's best site for getting printers working with Linux? Oh, right... that takes effort.
You (and helios) act as though this is the first time that Linux users thought to petition hardware manufacturers. It isn't. Dude, if you think that they don't care about your friend's money, then what in the WORLD makes you think a few signatures will change their mind?
You (and helios) are getting a rough reception because you are barging into a community and making a lot of noise about what we have been doing for years. Listen to the masters, young grasshopper.
And I guess we could just ignore you (and helios) but if you're strident enough, you'll make us all look dumb.
Why don't you do something constructive like build the world's best site for getting printers working with Linux? Oh, right... that takes effort.
TxtEdMacs,
Yes, in FC1 I had to select the closest model which was the 1210. In FC2, 1710 was available. Its all just the samsung GDI driver anyway.
But you did just hit on a valid reason that some printer manufacturers are shy of supporting "Linux". Say you buy it based on the fact that the box said Linux was supported, and then had problems with it on your old Mandrake system, or your new Debian system, or your RedHat system, or your Suse system, or your Ubuntu system, or your Peanut Linux system, or your Damn Small linux system, or your CentOS system, or your cAos linux system, or your Mepis system, or your Gentoo system, or your Slackware system, or your Xandros system, or you Linspire system, or your Libranet system, or your Arch Linux system, or your Feather Linux system, or your Tiny Sofa Linux system, or you QiLinux system... whose fault is that? Theirs? They said Linux was supported, right?
Say they were very specific and only supported, say, RedHat Enterprise Linux 4.0. The only thing that the community seems to dislike more than a company not supporting Linux, is a company singling out a particular distro to support that is not their own favorite distro.
It really is a catch 22.
Yes, in FC1 I had to select the closest model which was the 1210. In FC2, 1710 was available. Its all just the samsung GDI driver anyway.
But you did just hit on a valid reason that some printer manufacturers are shy of supporting "Linux". Say you buy it based on the fact that the box said Linux was supported, and then had problems with it on your old Mandrake system, or your new Debian system, or your RedHat system, or your Suse system, or your Ubuntu system, or your Peanut Linux system, or your Damn Small linux system, or your CentOS system, or your cAos linux system, or your Mepis system, or your Gentoo system, or your Slackware system, or your Xandros system, or you Linspire system, or your Libranet system, or your Arch Linux system, or your Feather Linux system, or your Tiny Sofa Linux system, or you QiLinux system... whose fault is that? Theirs? They said Linux was supported, right?
Say they were very specific and only supported, say, RedHat Enterprise Linux 4.0. The only thing that the community seems to dislike more than a company not supporting Linux, is a company singling out a particular distro to support that is not their own favorite distro.
It really is a catch 22.
You (and helios) are getting a rough reception because you are barging into a community and making a lot of noise about what we have been doing for years.
We tried it your way my friend and Linux only has a fraction of its potential market share. Now it's our turn. Can we fail...? yep we sure can but it won't be for the lack of trying. I have hired some of the best people in the business as Public Relations Representatives for our new website, http://www.Lobby4Linux.com and we are going to try to make a difference. When this site goes live, it will actively pair developers and users so that we may get some of the chaff cleared out and make this a well known and user-friendly system. It may fall flat on its face, but we will never know until we try. Think it was my idea? Not hardly, I have taken the best and brightest ideas offered over the past 2 years and implemented them into a single effort. Wish us ill if you must, but this kind of fragmentation is part of the reason Linux has not gained the popularity it deserves.
Now, I don't perceive anything I have done as even close to barging. You want barging? Ok pal, I am a 21 year veteran of the United States Army and have served three combat tours in two seperate wars. I am decorated with the Silver Star and two purple hearts and if you should ever refer to me as "young grasshopper, I believe I would not take it well. Got that Buddy?
Now That was barging. See the difference? I did not become a member of this community to verbally fistfight with anyone. I came here to see if I could HELP make a difference. I have nothing but respect for those smarter and more talented than I, and I defer to those people, even if they are half my age. I want to learn, build and help proliferate Linux...not argue semantics or philosophies. You and I would accomplish much more as friends and allies than we do sniping at each other...that is assuming we have the same goals.
helios
We tried it your way my friend and Linux only has a fraction of its potential market share. Now it's our turn. Can we fail...? yep we sure can but it won't be for the lack of trying. I have hired some of the best people in the business as Public Relations Representatives for our new website, http://www.Lobby4Linux.com and we are going to try to make a difference. When this site goes live, it will actively pair developers and users so that we may get some of the chaff cleared out and make this a well known and user-friendly system. It may fall flat on its face, but we will never know until we try. Think it was my idea? Not hardly, I have taken the best and brightest ideas offered over the past 2 years and implemented them into a single effort. Wish us ill if you must, but this kind of fragmentation is part of the reason Linux has not gained the popularity it deserves.
Now, I don't perceive anything I have done as even close to barging. You want barging? Ok pal, I am a 21 year veteran of the United States Army and have served three combat tours in two seperate wars. I am decorated with the Silver Star and two purple hearts and if you should ever refer to me as "young grasshopper, I believe I would not take it well. Got that Buddy?
Now That was barging. See the difference? I did not become a member of this community to verbally fistfight with anyone. I came here to see if I could HELP make a difference. I have nothing but respect for those smarter and more talented than I, and I defer to those people, even if they are half my age. I want to learn, build and help proliferate Linux...not argue semantics or philosophies. You and I would accomplish much more as friends and allies than we do sniping at each other...that is assuming we have the same goals.
helios
helios,
Do you think you're going to bully the computer industry like you tried to bully me (in your post of May 3 10:32 PM)?
How will your PR wonks and pairing website (where you "post the crap about developers who don't work with us") help devnet with his completely unrealistic hopes to plug any randomly chosen printer into a Linux box and watch it work?
Anything that you do... that does not result in code... does not help.
Do you think you're going to bully the computer industry like you tried to bully me (in your post of May 3 10:32 PM)?
How will your PR wonks and pairing website (where you "post the crap about developers who don't work with us") help devnet with his completely unrealistic hopes to plug any randomly chosen printer into a Linux box and watch it work?
Anything that you do... that does not result in code... does not help.
All i can say is vote with your cash, I have only ever bought Epson printers they work out of the box.
Been using linux since 1996 i think i gave up in 1997 expecting any special treatment from manufacturers, if they dont want my money fine its a free market i'll go elsewhere.
I think your petition would have a point if their wasn't another place we could go and get the hardware that works with our OS but that situation hasn't existed for a very long time.
I honestly think your better banging your head against a brick wall, but good luck with it anyways.
I think your petition would have a point if their wasn't another place we could go and get the hardware that works with our OS but that situation hasn't existed for a very long time.
I honestly think your better banging your head against a brick wall, but good luck with it anyways.
devnet,
I don't think, any magazine or journal would listen to a rather broad petition but I may be wrong.
IMHO, journals are more likely to listen if you put it in the right perspective: You want to make them your partner, not your foe. For journals, hardware tests are expensive due to the needed technique.
Thus, better say something like: there's lots of easy to reach content about Linux software online (howtos, new app repositories, etc.) but there's nearly no proper review about hardware. Doing these tests is usually too expensive for community websites, and the fast changes makes it nearly impossible to follow.
Thus, hardware reviews will make a magazine sold to more people because _every Linux user_ needs hardware every now and then (in contrast to certain software). It will also make hardware vendors pay for advertising, after they figured out the Linux crowd is watching.
All hardware compatibility websites I've seen until today, just answer the question: Will it work under Linux? Sorry, but that's not sufficient for my money, don't know about yours... I want the best printer for a given amount of money. I want the best graphic card. I want the best mainboard. I want an stick with recording into OGG format, not MP3.
If you establish a proper website (think spreadfirefox), call it OpenLetter instead of petition, let it sign by thousands of people (maybe differentiated by countries or languages), and then enable magazines to post which tests they have tests in their editions, it will slowly change.
I don't think, any magazine or journal would listen to a rather broad petition but I may be wrong.
IMHO, journals are more likely to listen if you put it in the right perspective: You want to make them your partner, not your foe. For journals, hardware tests are expensive due to the needed technique.
Thus, better say something like: there's lots of easy to reach content about Linux software online (howtos, new app repositories, etc.) but there's nearly no proper review about hardware. Doing these tests is usually too expensive for community websites, and the fast changes makes it nearly impossible to follow.
Thus, hardware reviews will make a magazine sold to more people because _every Linux user_ needs hardware every now and then (in contrast to certain software). It will also make hardware vendors pay for advertising, after they figured out the Linux crowd is watching.
All hardware compatibility websites I've seen until today, just answer the question: Will it work under Linux? Sorry, but that's not sufficient for my money, don't know about yours... I want the best printer for a given amount of money. I want the best graphic card. I want the best mainboard. I want an stick with recording into OGG format, not MP3.
If you establish a proper website (think spreadfirefox), call it OpenLetter instead of petition, let it sign by thousands of people (maybe differentiated by countries or languages), and then enable magazines to post which tests they have tests in their editions, it will slowly change.
While we're on the topic, if you are in the market to by a printer, print out http://www.linuxprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Anyone and take it with you. Saves a lot of guessing.
I have voted both ways, one might say. I wrote to Logitech to encourage the company to write programs for the keyboard setup. I know that this is possible with a bit of tweaking already, but there is no reason they should not make a nice program for it. Though I did buy the keyboard, I explained that it was crippled and the multimedia shortcuts were decoration only.
When I was looking for a new Printer, I chose a Brother laser printer because they have specific Linux drivers. If the author wishes to put this in a context of capitalism, the point is definately voting with your wallet.
While I agree with you in principal that hardware makers should work harder to make their products linux compatible, I don't think a petition will do any good. I believe the best thing the linux community could do would be to create a linux certification program.
As I'm sure you know, 90% of the hardware you buy has the official "Windows Compatible" seal on it showing it has been certified by Microsoft. If we were to create a joint effort of linux distributions to (something along the lines of the LSB group) and have that group certify hardware, manufacturers could submit their hardware to be "Linux Certified."
I think the ability to put a stamp like that on their hardware packaging could be something hardware manufacturers would want, especially manufacturers already supporting linux. While it markets to a relatively small share of the consumer base, I'm sure the linux community would show support by buying hardware with that certification if possible. In the long run, hopefully this would encourage other manufacturers to try for certification.
-> Fritz
As I'm sure you know, 90% of the hardware you buy has the official "Windows Compatible" seal on it showing it has been certified by Microsoft. If we were to create a joint effort of linux distributions to (something along the lines of the LSB group) and have that group certify hardware, manufacturers could submit their hardware to be "Linux Certified."
I think the ability to put a stamp like that on their hardware packaging could be something hardware manufacturers would want, especially manufacturers already supporting linux. While it markets to a relatively small share of the consumer base, I'm sure the linux community would show support by buying hardware with that certification if possible. In the long run, hopefully this would encourage other manufacturers to try for certification.
-> Fritz
cubrewer
Remember that with technology it is always "unrealistic" to assume that a new level can be achieved. It's not MY "unrealistic" hope...but many peoples hope that this will happen.
Just because you or other people do not think that anything will be accomplished does not mean that the rest of us should just give it all up and lay down and die. So, you do your thing...let helios do his...and I'll do mine.
Remember that with technology it is always "unrealistic" to assume that a new level can be achieved. It's not MY "unrealistic" hope...but many peoples hope that this will happen.
Just because you or other people do not think that anything will be accomplished does not mean that the rest of us should just give it all up and lay down and die. So, you do your thing...let helios do his...and I'll do mine.
One thing that strikes me about the link that I posted above is that the majority of printers are in the prints "Perfectly" column. The majority of the remaining printers are in the "good" column. The majority of that remainder is in the "partially" column. Very few are listed as "paperweights".
Comments?
Comments?
sbergman27, linux printing has come a long way.. definitely. However there are still those manufacturers that reinvent the wheel with every new printer they put out. So some of the printers listed are hard to find. You definitely want to move quickly when a "winner" comes out. Of course this varies greatly from vendor to vendor. My next printer will be PostScript (Color HP or Dell) since those are now reasonably priced.
I use an Epson C84 right now. I like it.. but ink costs a fortune (sigh).
I use an Epson C84 right now. I like it.. but ink costs a fortune (sigh).
STOP!!! Dell DOES NOT provide linux driver support for its printers...at least not the ones I have bought in the past. I ended up donating 3 brand new printers to my church. From what I can see, dell printers are just repackaged Lexmarks. Sure, 150 bucks for a dell all in one is a great price, but I could not use them as my business runs nothing but Linux. Now, Lexmark does provide Linux support for some of their newer models, but it is spotty. The dells I bought are actually Lexmark 5150 models and there is no Linux drivers for them. Might wanna stay with hp, but unless you refill your own cartridges...be prepared to pay the piper...or the inkmaster.
helios
helios
cjcox,
I gave up on ink jet. I don't do much printing at all. But it was still expensive because everytime I did decide to print something I discovered that the ink cartridge had dried up, requiring another trip to the store and a $65 expenditure. I think I was paying about $5 per page. This was particularly irritating since when I do print something, it tends be because I *have* to and tends to be in a time-sensitive situation.
(My last ink jet printer would refuse to print at all, even from the black cartridge, if *any* of the colors in the color cartridge showed to be depleted!)
Yes, I was wondering just how relevant many of the printers in the perfect column were. It would be nice to see an analysis of the ratings of printers you would likely see if you went down to Best Buy this evening and had a look.
My perception is that the Linux printing situation has gotten better for 2 or 3 reasons:
1. The usual astounding work done by the community. 2. Support of some winprinters now, either through community or vendor efforts. 3. There are proportionally fewer Winprinters now than there used to be.
Is my perception correct, or totally off on point 3, I wonder?
I gave up on ink jet. I don't do much printing at all. But it was still expensive because everytime I did decide to print something I discovered that the ink cartridge had dried up, requiring another trip to the store and a $65 expenditure. I think I was paying about $5 per page. This was particularly irritating since when I do print something, it tends be because I *have* to and tends to be in a time-sensitive situation.
(My last ink jet printer would refuse to print at all, even from the black cartridge, if *any* of the colors in the color cartridge showed to be depleted!)
Yes, I was wondering just how relevant many of the printers in the perfect column were. It would be nice to see an analysis of the ratings of printers you would likely see if you went down to Best Buy this evening and had a look.
My perception is that the Linux printing situation has gotten better for 2 or 3 reasons:
1. The usual astounding work done by the community. 2. Support of some winprinters now, either through community or vendor efforts. 3. There are proportionally fewer Winprinters now than there used to be.
Is my perception correct, or totally off on point 3, I wonder?
I think a lot of the reason is just better communication of what works... linuxprinting.org really helped out a lot.
Yes.. mostly still it is due to the hard work of the community of developers.
Vendors have not improved much.. but there are a greater number of skunkworks developers everywhere.
Back when is cost a vendor almost $3000 to license PostScript for their printers, things like winprinters and such were a "good deal"... now there's a plethora of mature print lang technologies that don't have hefty pricetags... so there's not a huge price advantage to a winprinter (from a vendor's perspective).
Now you can get PostScript 3 and color for less than $500. Inkjets (as you mentioned) suffer from the high cost of ink... but BOY do they produce nice pictures! And... though it's weird to consider this... they are disposable since the cost of ink is very close to the cost of a new printer. Even if the new printer comes with low ink level cartridges, you could still throw away the inkjet after about 3-4 uses (may have to create a dedicated landfill for these). Obviously people like Epson, aren't going to make the environmental friendly list. :-)
Yep.. my next printer will be a color postscript laser... it's just too cheap now.
Yes.. mostly still it is due to the hard work of the community of developers.
Vendors have not improved much.. but there are a greater number of skunkworks developers everywhere.
Back when is cost a vendor almost $3000 to license PostScript for their printers, things like winprinters and such were a "good deal"... now there's a plethora of mature print lang technologies that don't have hefty pricetags... so there's not a huge price advantage to a winprinter (from a vendor's perspective).
Now you can get PostScript 3 and color for less than $500. Inkjets (as you mentioned) suffer from the high cost of ink... but BOY do they produce nice pictures! And... though it's weird to consider this... they are disposable since the cost of ink is very close to the cost of a new printer. Even if the new printer comes with low ink level cartridges, you could still throw away the inkjet after about 3-4 uses (may have to create a dedicated landfill for these). Obviously people like Epson, aren't going to make the environmental friendly list. :-)
Yep.. my next printer will be a color postscript laser... it's just too cheap now.
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