- Site menu:
- Latest Discussions
- Latest Newswire
- Archives
- Submit Story
- Story HOWTO
- Syndicate
- E-mail Alerts
How Dell repels attempts to buy its 'open source' PC
Fave quotes: "While Dell garners glowing reviews for shipping such an open source OS-friendly product, the company's new E510n actually stands as yet another example of how hard Dell tries not to sell non-Microsoft gear." "Dell's sales staffers have a secret web page for the product that you can't find with normal search tactics." "{Ashlee Vance 1:43:43 PM} What do you mean how do I intend to use it? For computing, silly. " |
|
|
Comments (40)
What Praise!!!
Who the heck gave praise to Dell for offering PC for FOSS???
First, they didn't offer anything, not even close to, FOSS PC. What praise you are talking about? Everyone is well aware of their tricks and the deceptions by some of the lackey "paid" "journalists". Who do you think we are to believe all this cr*p. Enough of this Bullsh*t. We will know a FOSS PC offer when we see one. So far, we haven't seen one from Dell.
Interestingly, we have seen lots of them in and from non-Western countries.
We should set up a pool on how long before the USA loses control of the Internet by default. The UN are hardly a bunch of spotless angels themselves, but China alone could easily outmass the USA in total Internet presence within startlingly few years, and with a little more effort so could Russia or India or the EU, and with a lot of effort so could Brasil or any of several other Asian, African and South American countries or alliances of same.
And practically all of them are already well on their way to World Domination, Linus-style.
We should set up a pool on how long before the USA loses control of the Internet by default. The UN are hardly a bunch of spotless angels themselves, but China alone could easily outmass the USA in total Internet presence within startlingly few years, and with a little more effort so could Russia or India or the EU, and with a lot of effort so could Brasil or any of several other Asian, African and South American countries or alliances of same.
And practically all of them are already well on their way to World Domination, Linus-style.
Should always get a refund for Windows according EULA
18 earlier comments in the full thread.
Abe et Al:
Being legally liable for something requires:
1. Violating a statue, which means meeting all of the elements of that statute,
2. Violating the terms of a contract, or
3. Violating common law.
Folks who are trying to claim that Dell somehow violates a statute (this so-called "coupling", the legal term for which is actually tying) really ought to find themselves the statute in question and determine how Dell (not Microsoft) violates. I'm not aware U.S. law that Dell is breaking, but I'm completely unfamiliar with European law.
As to contract...Dell satisfies the EULA if they offer to take the computer back and give you a full refund.
Your problem is that you are not satisfied with getting a refund. You want your refund AND you want to have the Dell computer. Until such time as Dell itself has a PC monopoly, Dell is not obligated to provide you with that.
Sometimes, you have to grow up and deal with the choices people offer. If Dell doesn't want to offer Linux or an OS-free computer, that's their business. If you don't like that, DON'T BUY DELL!!
Being legally liable for something requires:
1. Violating a statue, which means meeting all of the elements of that statute,
2. Violating the terms of a contract, or
3. Violating common law.
Folks who are trying to claim that Dell somehow violates a statute (this so-called "coupling", the legal term for which is actually tying) really ought to find themselves the statute in question and determine how Dell (not Microsoft) violates. I'm not aware U.S. law that Dell is breaking, but I'm completely unfamiliar with European law.
As to contract...Dell satisfies the EULA if they offer to take the computer back and give you a full refund.
Your problem is that you are not satisfied with getting a refund. You want your refund AND you want to have the Dell computer. Until such time as Dell itself has a PC monopoly, Dell is not obligated to provide you with that.
Sometimes, you have to grow up and deal with the choices people offer. If Dell doesn't want to offer Linux or an OS-free computer, that's their business. If you don't like that, DON'T BUY DELL!!
Well, you may be right, but in my opinion, the EULA is ambigious/not clear:
If the MS XP OEM tells me about the return-policy, I read, returning ONLY MS XP, while you read returning BOTH the laptop AND MS XP OEM.
But if I should also return my laptop, then whats the whole use of the return-policy? I wouldn't be buying a laptop with WinXP in first place if I was going to return the whole laptop, would I?
So Dean, I understand your point of view, but I doubt what the EULA actually means with 'return-policy' (or refund). It's time to find it out.
If the EC forbids to couple Media Player to Windows XP, then why not forbid coupling Windows XP to a laptop?
The problem is, to go to the competition authority, you should make clear that MS is abusing its monopoly position. In history, people did this, and that's why MS now states the EULA is an agreement between you and the hardware manufacurers (and "MS isn't between"), thereby evading their monopoly abuse. But if I am going to disassamble Windows XP OEM (which is forbidden by the EULA), Dell isn't going to sue me, but MS will try to do so, I think. Technically speaking, this is wrong, because I don't break my agreement with MS by disassambling (and giving to all my friends for example) Windows XP.
Because the agreement isn't between me and MS, if I copy Windows XP for all my friends, MS can't sue me if I'm right, so for this problem, MS might have created the BSA. This construction sucks in my opinion. If I break the restrictions in the MS XP OEM EULA, I will be sued by MS via BSA, but if I want my rights, I can't get them at MS via the BSA, nor at Dell etc.
So the first task should be discovering how 'legitimate' the relations described in the EULA between hardware reseller, consumer and MS are.
Going to send out the recorded mail to the hardware-vendors today asking them to clear up this issue. It will cost me some bucks (42 euro or so) but I think its worth it. (Probably they haven't answered yet because I told them in the mail, their response could be forwarded to the Dutch Competition Aurhority, so they have to think twice before responding)
If the MS XP OEM tells me about the return-policy, I read, returning ONLY MS XP, while you read returning BOTH the laptop AND MS XP OEM.
But if I should also return my laptop, then whats the whole use of the return-policy? I wouldn't be buying a laptop with WinXP in first place if I was going to return the whole laptop, would I?
So Dean, I understand your point of view, but I doubt what the EULA actually means with 'return-policy' (or refund). It's time to find it out.
If the EC forbids to couple Media Player to Windows XP, then why not forbid coupling Windows XP to a laptop?
The problem is, to go to the competition authority, you should make clear that MS is abusing its monopoly position. In history, people did this, and that's why MS now states the EULA is an agreement between you and the hardware manufacurers (and "MS isn't between"), thereby evading their monopoly abuse. But if I am going to disassamble Windows XP OEM (which is forbidden by the EULA), Dell isn't going to sue me, but MS will try to do so, I think. Technically speaking, this is wrong, because I don't break my agreement with MS by disassambling (and giving to all my friends for example) Windows XP.
Because the agreement isn't between me and MS, if I copy Windows XP for all my friends, MS can't sue me if I'm right, so for this problem, MS might have created the BSA. This construction sucks in my opinion. If I break the restrictions in the MS XP OEM EULA, I will be sued by MS via BSA, but if I want my rights, I can't get them at MS via the BSA, nor at Dell etc.
So the first task should be discovering how 'legitimate' the relations described in the EULA between hardware reseller, consumer and MS are.
Going to send out the recorded mail to the hardware-vendors today asking them to clear up this issue. It will cost me some bucks (42 euro or so) but I think its worth it. (Probably they haven't answered yet because I told them in the mail, their response could be forwarded to the Dutch Competition Aurhority, so they have to think twice before responding)
hkwint -
There are two significant differences on the bundling of Windows Media Player with Windows and the bundling of Windows with a Dell Computer.
1. Microsoft is a monopolist. Dell is not. 2. Windows Media player is a Microsoft product that Microsoft is trying to use its monopoly power to tie to Windows.
There are two significant differences on the bundling of Windows Media Player with Windows and the bundling of Windows with a Dell Computer.
1. Microsoft is a monopolist. Dell is not. 2. Windows Media player is a Microsoft product that Microsoft is trying to use its monopoly power to tie to Windows.
Well, our law states prohibited tied selling also may include products of two different vendors sold together, and it only helps if one of the two vendors is a monopolist. It only should be proven MS is misusing its economic power position to hinder competitors. The EULA between the consumer and the hardware reseller is only 'appearance' and distraction from the monopoly abuse of MS.
There are exceptions where tied selling is allowed, which may include laptop+OS, but it's to the local authorities to judge if this case is one of the exceptions where tied selling is allowed or not, and not to us LXer members.
However, it IS to me to find out how those authorities think about it, and the fact MS is already condemned for misusing their economic power can only help.
Since many persons tried the same as I'm doing now, I am indeed aware the chances of succes are very small, but as I stated before, it's better than sitting around and doing nothing; I just want to buy ANY (and not those 3 "best hidden on the internet" laptops) laptop I like without paying for Windows OEM which I'm not going to use!
I also thought about starting my own (linux-)laptop brand, but I don't have the money and knowledge for it I'm afraid.
There are exceptions where tied selling is allowed, which may include laptop+OS, but it's to the local authorities to judge if this case is one of the exceptions where tied selling is allowed or not, and not to us LXer members.
However, it IS to me to find out how those authorities think about it, and the fact MS is already condemned for misusing their economic power can only help.
Since many persons tried the same as I'm doing now, I am indeed aware the chances of succes are very small, but as I stated before, it's better than sitting around and doing nothing; I just want to buy ANY (and not those 3 "best hidden on the internet" laptops) laptop I like without paying for Windows OEM which I'm not going to use!
I also thought about starting my own (linux-)laptop brand, but I don't have the money and knowledge for it I'm afraid.
hkwint --
Yes, exactly. Legal matters are to be determined in accord with the statutes and their intent.
Yes, exactly. Legal matters are to be determined in accord with the statutes and their intent.
BTW:
Some people actually succeeded in getting a refund from Dell. (Nice story by the way) See:
http://www.nomis52.net/?section=comps&page=dell
http://windowsrefund.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewto...
There are more succes stories at
http://windowsrefund.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewfo...
People actually did get their money back (ranging from $70 to E100), and Dell even allowed them to keep their XP OEM copy, since they didn't need it anymore.
(And no Dean, they didn't return their laptop!)
Some people actually succeeded in getting a refund from Dell. (Nice story by the way) See:
http://www.nomis52.net/?section=comps&page=dell
http://windowsrefund.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewto...
There are more succes stories at
http://windowsrefund.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewfo...
People actually did get their money back (ranging from $70 to E100), and Dell even allowed them to keep their XP OEM copy, since they didn't need it anymore.
(And no Dean, they didn't return their laptop!)
Just a suggestion here -- try planetfeedback.com:
http://www.planetfeedback.com/
Unfortunately, the site appears to be temporarily down :(
They did me a good service a while back with ATT's cell phone, um, Service. After multiple rounds with customer service at ATT (This was last Feb/Mar), they were attempting to bill me for two (possibly 3) months of service that were tagged on *after* I had dropped their service. Multiple sessions talking to service representatives who assured me that the problem was never going to go my way, that I owed them etc. They were at the time, extremely rude to deal with. I suspect ATT had outsourced to some seriously incompetent billing people, but don't know the real story.
I went online to attempt to track down the email of consumer rights organizations and their CEO or something similar, found the above site, sent an email, and within 2 hours had an ATT customer service rep on the phone (she called me, no less) assuring me that the matter was resolved exactly to my liking.
Another tack to try, in other words, is to simply make a lot of noise in the direction of their customer service people, consumer rights organizations, the CEO and so on -- who knows what can come of it. Just emailing Dell directly might not be the only way to talk to them, I'm saying.
http://www.planetfeedback.com/
Unfortunately, the site appears to be temporarily down :(
They did me a good service a while back with ATT's cell phone, um, Service. After multiple rounds with customer service at ATT (This was last Feb/Mar), they were attempting to bill me for two (possibly 3) months of service that were tagged on *after* I had dropped their service. Multiple sessions talking to service representatives who assured me that the problem was never going to go my way, that I owed them etc. They were at the time, extremely rude to deal with. I suspect ATT had outsourced to some seriously incompetent billing people, but don't know the real story.
I went online to attempt to track down the email of consumer rights organizations and their CEO or something similar, found the above site, sent an email, and within 2 hours had an ATT customer service rep on the phone (she called me, no less) assuring me that the matter was resolved exactly to my liking.
Another tack to try, in other words, is to simply make a lot of noise in the direction of their customer service people, consumer rights organizations, the CEO and so on -- who knows what can come of it. Just emailing Dell directly might not be the only way to talk to them, I'm saying.
Hkwint -
Outstanding. Good for those folks who got a little money back.
However, giving the refund and being obligated to give it are two different things.
Outstanding. Good for those folks who got a little money back.
However, giving the refund and being obligated to give it are two different things.
Yes, you're right.
That's exactly what I'm asking in my letters to the hardware-manufacturers.
Maybe it would help if you read the letter I actually sent to them:
http://hkwint.50webs.com/refund_MS_en.html
Again sloppy translation, because I used language which is too distinguished/difficult for me, especially when translating.
That's exactly what I'm asking in my letters to the hardware-manufacturers.
Maybe it would help if you read the letter I actually sent to them:
http://hkwint.50webs.com/refund_MS_en.html
Again sloppy translation, because I used language which is too distinguished/difficult for me, especially when translating.
hkwint --
Sounds like a step in the right direction.
As I think about it, an os-only return policy might be easier for someone like Dell to do than offering OS-free computers or, especially Linux computers, at least while demand is fairly low.
For one thing, Dell doesn't have to support them, because that isn't the product they sell. If you take a separate action of returning the OS, that's your business. Also -- no need to train staff, stock anything, make decisions at packing time or anything.
Of course, if very many people do that...
Sounds like a step in the right direction.
As I think about it, an os-only return policy might be easier for someone like Dell to do than offering OS-free computers or, especially Linux computers, at least while demand is fairly low.
For one thing, Dell doesn't have to support them, because that isn't the product they sell. If you take a separate action of returning the OS, that's your business. Also -- no need to train staff, stock anything, make decisions at packing time or anything.
Of course, if very many people do that...
It takes some real ingenious thinking to convert a plain and simple EULA into something completely opposite. By Microsoft's own words, you may return your unused Windows for a refund. Plain and simple. Of course, as one of the most anti-customer companies of all time, they do not wish to honor their own "agreement" (as if customers ever got a chance to sit down and negotiate the wording) that they wrote themselves.
I have to agree with the viewpoint that if the PC and OS are sold as a unit, they're a unit.
If I buy a car (I know... the "car" analogy again!) and want Michelins instead of Bandags, I can ask the dealership if I can have them preinstalled. The dealership has the option of saying "yes" or "no" and can quote a price for doing so.
And if I buy a car that comes with Michelins and I want Bandags, the dealership still has the option of saying "yes" or "no" and of quoting a price differential for doing so.
Either way, if they say "no" or if I don't like the price, I have the option of not buying from them.
I would not expect that I should be able to return the tires for a partial refund.
If I buy an Ipaq, and prefer to run Linux on it, I have the option of asking the retailer for a quote on installing my distro of choice on it. They can say "yes" or "no" and quote a price.
I would not expect that I should be able to return the OS by itself for a partial refund. (And how would you do that anyway?)
And if they say "no", or I don't like the price, I might decide not to buy from them.
Likewise, if I buy a Sharp Zaurus (which comes with their version of Linux) and would prefer to run OpenZaurus, I have the option of asking the retailer for a quote on installing OpenZaurus on it. Again, they have the option of saying "yes" or "no" and quoting a price.
And if they say "no", or I don't like the price, I might decide not to buy from them.
If I buy a PC, how is the situation fundamentally different?
I do agree that there is a problem. A BIG problem. But nitpicking about a third party's EULA is barking up the wrong tree.
Don't buy from vendors that don't give you what you want. Don't buy from vendors that charge you more for what you consider to be less.
Don't argue with the peons at Dell's support or sales numbers.
Write letters to the execs! Tell them what you want!
It won't do any good in the short term. Get ready for that.
But, as Kirk claimed that Spock had said in "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock": "There are always possibilities."*
* In actuality, Spock never said that on screen. He said "There are always alternatives" in "The Galileo Seven". Then again, later in the episode he admitted that "He might have been mistaken". That particular part of this footnote likely has a relevance to the rest of my post. ;-)
If I buy a car (I know... the "car" analogy again!) and want Michelins instead of Bandags, I can ask the dealership if I can have them preinstalled. The dealership has the option of saying "yes" or "no" and can quote a price for doing so.
And if I buy a car that comes with Michelins and I want Bandags, the dealership still has the option of saying "yes" or "no" and of quoting a price differential for doing so.
Either way, if they say "no" or if I don't like the price, I have the option of not buying from them.
I would not expect that I should be able to return the tires for a partial refund.
If I buy an Ipaq, and prefer to run Linux on it, I have the option of asking the retailer for a quote on installing my distro of choice on it. They can say "yes" or "no" and quote a price.
I would not expect that I should be able to return the OS by itself for a partial refund. (And how would you do that anyway?)
And if they say "no", or I don't like the price, I might decide not to buy from them.
Likewise, if I buy a Sharp Zaurus (which comes with their version of Linux) and would prefer to run OpenZaurus, I have the option of asking the retailer for a quote on installing OpenZaurus on it. Again, they have the option of saying "yes" or "no" and quoting a price.
And if they say "no", or I don't like the price, I might decide not to buy from them.
If I buy a PC, how is the situation fundamentally different?
I do agree that there is a problem. A BIG problem. But nitpicking about a third party's EULA is barking up the wrong tree.
Don't buy from vendors that don't give you what you want. Don't buy from vendors that charge you more for what you consider to be less.
Don't argue with the peons at Dell's support or sales numbers.
Write letters to the execs! Tell them what you want!
It won't do any good in the short term. Get ready for that.
But, as Kirk claimed that Spock had said in "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock": "There are always possibilities."*
* In actuality, Spock never said that on screen. He said "There are always alternatives" in "The Galileo Seven". Then again, later in the episode he admitted that "He might have been mistaken". That particular part of this footnote likely has a relevance to the rest of my post. ;-)
Steve -
Yes,
Yes,
and yes.
I still find it confusing that people think they have some desperate need for or right to a Dell computer -- which seems to me the only rational basis for forcing Dell to offer their products configured in a particular way.
Yes,
Yes,
and yes.
I still find it confusing that people think they have some desperate need for or right to a Dell computer -- which seems to me the only rational basis for forcing Dell to offer their products configured in a particular way.
sbergman, your analogy falls apart against the wording of Microsoft's own EULA. That's what I'm questioning- It's quite clear, there is no way to twist it into something else. It's not nitpicking, because Microsoft itself says you can return Windows for a refund.
You are right that customers need to do more than passively accept what they are spoon-fed, which is a large part of why Microshaft gets away with so much abuse.
You are right that customers need to do more than passively accept what they are spoon-fed, which is a large part of why Microshaft gets away with so much abuse.
My analogy does not fall apart against the *wording* of the EULA. It is inconsistent with the *existence* of the EULA. Somewhere, someone made a deal with someone. Dell made a deal to resell a Windows license as part of a Dell product. They had certain rights and responsibilities with respect to MS. Dell customers make a deal with Dell when they purchase that product. Likewise, they have certain rights and responsibilities with respect to Dell.
But then there is a boilerplate EULA from MS that looks like it applies to some agreement between Dell's customers and MS.
When I buy a microwave, not only do I not expect to be able to return the embedded OS for a partial refund... I don't expect to have a deal directly with the the holders of the OS itself. (Beyond generic issues like copyright law, etc.)
It's hard to split logical hairs when the situation itself is so screwed up.
But then there is a boilerplate EULA from MS that looks like it applies to some agreement between Dell's customers and MS.
When I buy a microwave, not only do I not expect to be able to return the embedded OS for a partial refund... I don't expect to have a deal directly with the the holders of the OS itself. (Beyond generic issues like copyright law, etc.)
It's hard to split logical hairs when the situation itself is so screwed up.
You're making it too complicated. A PC operating system is a fairly easily interchangeable part, just like application software, or RAM, or a hard drive. And the EULA says what it says- no ifs, ands, or buts. You can't let microshaft or dell off the hook- it's their EULA, so they should abide by it. They sure don't cut us any slack when it comes to abiding by their own licensing agreements - which given their unilateral nature makes no sense how they can be legally binding in any case - why should we cut them any? It shouldn't be the customer's problem for figuring out how the EULA is honored- that's the vendor's job. Only in the computing world do vendors routinely get away with such customer-hostile behavior.
Dean,
The company I work for sells Dells as servers. I have no real problem with that since there is really no problem getting RHEL preinstalled on their servers.
But for point of sale stations, I've been using cheap ($199) throw-away Microtel boxes from Wal-Mart, with Linux preinstalled. I often give clients the option of just ordering it themselves. Last week, a client and I decided that we needed an additional box. We went into his office and click! click! click! he had a new Linux box on order quicker than I could have done it. I mentioned to him, in passing, that if he ever had availability problems from that source, Amazon also carries them. To which he responded that he would probably start doing that since he doesn't really like Wal-Mart.
It's not hard to get a box with Linux preinstalled... *if* you know what you are doing.
The company I work for sells Dells as servers. I have no real problem with that since there is really no problem getting RHEL preinstalled on their servers.
But for point of sale stations, I've been using cheap ($199) throw-away Microtel boxes from Wal-Mart, with Linux preinstalled. I often give clients the option of just ordering it themselves. Last week, a client and I decided that we needed an additional box. We went into his office and click! click! click! he had a new Linux box on order quicker than I could have done it. I mentioned to him, in passing, that if he ever had availability problems from that source, Amazon also carries them. To which he responded that he would probably start doing that since he doesn't really like Wal-Mart.
It's not hard to get a box with Linux preinstalled... *if* you know what you are doing.
Steve --
Music to my ears...especially since it is mass-market available from major well-known suppliers at a very good price music.
Enough people do that, and, one way or the other, nobody will have to worry about stripping OS's from Dells.
Music to my ears...especially since it is mass-market available from major well-known suppliers at a very good price music.
Enough people do that, and, one way or the other, nobody will have to worry about stripping OS's from Dells.
Quoting:especially since it is mass-market available from major well-known suppliers at a very good price music.
Uhm, well, in the USA maybe, but not in my country.
What I was really wondering; if you can get a refund for tied software from Dell (not if it is your right, just if it is possible), would it be possible to buy 100 pieces of them, get a refund for the software, say $70 per laptop, and resell them?
Quoting:But then there is a boilerplate EULA from MS that looks like it applies to some agreement between Dell's customers and MS.
No, you're wrong, obviously you didn't read the EULA! The EULA states it's an agreement between Dell's customers and Dell, NOT Dell's customers and MS!
And about the microwave: I think tuxchick is right, if the OS of a microwave was as easily interchangeable as MS is, I also would call it tied sales. Also, the microwave OS doesn't come with its own EULA offering a refund for it paid by the hardware-manufacturer. By the way, no microwave OS-maker is convinced for misusing their economic power both in the US and EU as far as I know.
Quoting:I still find it confusing that people think they have some desperate need for or right to a Dell computer
So do I. In fact, I don't want a Dell. But many others do. Amongst them some SMB's which are too small to buy a large party customized Dell's. For them, it can be a very big saving, if Dell's websites states how to get a refund for unused (imported) software. Because they have a choice between imported software (speaking for the EU now) and more 'local' or free (as in beer or speech, I don't care) software, this could only help the local economy and innovation.
The bottom line is the fact that most people and IT professionals are either sheep or they don't know any better. They take what is offered by the OEMs and don't want to bother with any of this stuff. Many of them don't care because they are getting the budgets they ask for to purchase equipment.
I work for an oil company. Two years ago, it used to make a difference because resources were not as available as today. But today, with the higher margins, money is no object. I personally look at at as a matter of principles no matter what the margins are.
I still believe in consumer purchasing power and activists. It is the most effective way of maintaining a good quality of service. The trick is to educate and enlighten consumers and whatever the government can do is a big plus; But i am not that optimistic about the government.
I work for an oil company. Two years ago, it used to make a difference because resources were not as available as today. But today, with the higher margins, money is no object. I personally look at at as a matter of principles no matter what the margins are.
I still believe in consumer purchasing power and activists. It is the most effective way of maintaining a good quality of service. The trick is to educate and enlighten consumers and whatever the government can do is a big plus; But i am not that optimistic about the government.
Post a comment
A free account is needed to post. Write your comment here first: your text is kept in this browser while you sign up or log in, and is waiting for you when you come back.
Your message:Markdown: **bold**, *italic*, [text](https://link), - lists, > quotes, $x^2$ for math. Formatting help
Sign up and post (it is free) or Log in and post