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Comment of the Day - November 19, 2005 - Novell impressions

Posted by tadelste on · 11 comments
LXer.com -Article; By cjcox
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[Ed: Our commentor is a Linux Guru and one of the most knowledgeable IT people we know. He has an inside track on vendors and insight into the market few people can match.- tadelste]

Chris writes: SUSE has certainly gotten a bad rap. The true shame is that Novell is responsible for spreading their own FUD against themselves. Novell doesn't believe in SUSE. Until that changes, Novell doesn't have a chance.

Related to:
Why did SuSE Linux's founder resign from Novell?

Shortly after the acquistion, Novell was very active in trying to figure things out. I can assure you that Novell (pre SUSE) was absolutely oblivious to Linux. That is to say, Novell really... and I'm not kidding folks, believed (and still does for many at Novell) that NetWare is a dominating force in corporate IT. Not merely a presence, or even a very important server, but a dominating role. I'm serious. I tried my best to tell them that their perception of themselves WAS NOT what I saw... but they REALLY, really believed I was simply not abreast of the OBVIOUS truth regarding Novell's CURRENT dominant position.



Oddly enough, SUSE has always maintained that profit was made off the sale of the SUSE Professional boxed distribution. Btw, Red Hat (according to Alan Cox himself... prior to the big vacation) says their boxed consumer product line was also quite profitable. Many were worried that Novell would move SUSE similarly and destroy the consumer boxed product. Novell assured everyone (including myself personally) that they saw no reason to change something that simply was not broken. Until now. It's strange. Novell believed (believes) that Novell has mass market penetration and dominance, but also believe that SUSE had NO marketshare with respect to Red Hat, which certainly was not the case.

Anyone who has administered Red Hat and SUSE, knows that you get a certain level of support from SUSE whereas you don't get anything from Red Hat with sending them an annual support subscription fee. It's not a big fee... but Red Hat does count every entitlement independently... so it adds up. Their enterprise level product costs about $1500/yr for a subscription. Back at the time when Novell made the acquisition, it was still very true that the SUSE Professional (not the enterprise level product mind you) was better supported than Red Hat's $1500/yr. enterprise level product. However, Novell believed that SUSE did poorly against Red Hat... and I personally believe it is (was) quite the opposite. Enterprises appreciated SUSE's attention to Unix-like detail. SUSE supported NIS, NFS, LDAP and Samba much better than Red Hat. Arguably, that is still the case. Administrators spent many, many, many more hours administering Red Hat machines than comparable SUSE machines... and I'm talking on the server side.

Ever done package selection with Red Hat? Sure... it's simple, BUT NOT very customizable. Simply put, Red Hat, which strives to be a server distribution , feels like a desktop distribution targeted at the ignorant. And is really shows. It is VERY easy to create a very trimmed down SUSE for server usage (using SUSE Professional btw) vs. doing the same with Red Hat. Sad but VERY, VERY true folks. But somehow because of the size of the SUSE distribution in total and the fact that the default install tended to be much larger than Red Hat, it somehow got a undeserved reputation for being a bloated desktop centric distribution. That's simply wrong and undeserved.

SUSE, which uses rpm, is automatically grouped with Red Hat as being a victim of a myriad of RPM-Hell... which is also NOT true. SUSE's package manager includes automatic dependency checking it works quite well (with few mistakes here and there). I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten into circular dependency hell with Red Hat. That's were package "a" depends on package "b" and package "b" depends on package "c" which in turn is dependent on package "a". This has gotten better since the days of the Novell acquisition, but I pretty sure with adding and removing packages in Red Hat, it will certainly show up again, even today.



In all fairness, Red Hat isn't that bad... but IMHO, Red Hat today is about where SUSE was 5 years ago... [and] in some cases (e.g. administration tools) they're not even close. Not by a long shot.

I just got done doing an install of RHELAS 4, arguably the best Red Hat ever.... and I can tell you that by the time the platform was fully configured I had easily spent 3 to 4 extra hours vs. doing the same amount of tasks with SLES 9. AND I could do exactly the same thing with SUSE Professional with equal simplicity (except in a couple of isolated cases).

SUSE has certainly gotten a bad rap. The true shame is that Novell is responsible for spreading their own FUD against themselves. Novell doesn't believe in SUSE. Until that changes, Novell doesn't have a chance.

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Comments (11)

Novell's hopes are slim because of Ximian.

All of the wisdom and ingenuity of SuSE is being thrown down the drain. What's going on at Novell? It's simple: they've put a couple of children in charge of the company. I'm talking about the monkeys from Ximian, of course. Miguel de Icaza and Nat Friedman are a couple of pushy blowhards who talk a big game but don't know how to execute a business strategy. Sure, that gets you "popular kids" status on Slashdot, but it doesn't generate the millions of dollars in revenue required to sustain a company the size of Novell.

Novell still has time to reverse this downward spiral, but they've got to do it quickly:

1. Spin off Ximian. Those folks aren't adding any value to the company.

2. Reinstate SuSE's prior success by LISTENING TO CUSTOMERS, particularly European customers, since SuSE was the dominant Linux in Europe.

3. Cancel redundant and/or valueless projects like Hula and F-Spot which only exist for "me too" value. These projects have plenty of existing and successful alternatives; they aren't ever going to bring Novell any revenue.

4. Try to win back some of the SuSE executives who left, and PUT THEM IN CHARGE.
Ximian has some good people. Just not the ones Mr. Messman put in charge. When I heard him say that Nat and Miguel were going to take them to the promise land at LinuxWorld last February, I had to pinch myself.
I even pinched Novell on more than one occasion about the disposition of Nat and Miguel. Looney toons.

Novell had all of the tools to take the enterprise by storm. And they spent a year just trying to puff themselves up.
The original assertion is exactly right. Novell employees *know* that NetWare/eDirectory/ZenWorks etc. etc. are best of breed. Their entire marketing approach in the field has therefore always been based upon show the great features and everybody will right away just drop what they are using and adopt NetWare. I saw this once at Brainshare where someone was giving a demo on stage, and then said that some Compaq VP had been so impressed by what he saw in the demo that Compaq was immediately going to adopt all Novell products internally. Right.

They continue to try to move sceptics to Suse using this approach. IT DOES NOT WORK.

Until Novell blows most of their sales force out the door and breaks the legacy mentality, they will not be successful.

The comments about Ximian are spot on as well. Take an internal culture that thought they were right and everybody else was full of it, and then add competing cultures (Ximiam, Suse, Cambridge technology partners) Chaos reigns supreme. Watch for the new boss to try and break this apart. There will be victims. Hopefully Suse will be the one left standing (with some of the good features from the NetWare side. Don't forget that Bill Gates was afraid of SuperNOS back in the early 90's. UNIX kernal and NetWare services. That's what is possible with OES.) One thing to consider is that NetWare does have quite broad penetration. There are some really big names out there who still use a lot of NetWare/eDirectory. So Linux devotees should not completely denigrate some of the features of NetWare.

If you hope for a big future for Suse (as long as it belongs to Novell), you need to see existing NetWare customers adopt Suse en-masse over the next two years.

Postscript: I see that they have hired a new CTO. This is Ron Hovsepian taking over. Note that one of the tasks of the new CTO is to promote OES.
Where does Ximian fit in, anyway? It seems pointless to add them to an already chaotic brew.

hard to create a server version

Obviously you haven't heard of kickstart.

It is unbelievably easy to create a repository that has the files you want to install, then create a kickstart config file and install on a thousand PCs the same packages.

Could it be that YOU know how to use SUSE, so it is easier (and faster) for you to do it ... but that a similarly experienced person who knows RHEL can do the same for RedHat.

SuSE is good, RedHat is good ... both cost money to use.

CentOS ... now there is a Free Enterprise OS for you :)

Quoting:"CentOS ... now there is a Free Enterprise OS for you :)


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that essentially RH Enterprise, with all the Red Hat logos taken out? Moreover, a free copy does not grant the user necessarily competent support of a system the distributor has expended so little effort to dispense. Hence, the gain may be ephemeral.
I use CentOS and have been quite pleased with the community support. CentOS gets you free security updates via Yum for 5 years. I don't think they guarantee that, but its a hell of a lot better than the planned obsolesence that so many distros these days give you right up front.
What? hughesjr, why do you assume that a major software ISV that supports RHEL and SLES on everything from x86 to z-Series has never heard of kickstart. Did I say something that made it sound like I hadn't heard of kickstart? What is your point? Administration is not limited to the very simple act of cloning systems. That's easy to do... with or without kickstart.

Kickstart is not going to configure your Samba, is not going to configure your NIS, is not going to configure your DNS, is not going to configure your DHCP, is not going to configure your SMTP, is not going to configure your databases.... etc.... etc... etc...
cjcox: not to rain on your parade, but KickStart can actually do everything you list, either directly using scripts you define in KickStart for the purpose, or by including an "uberpackage" RPM with suitable preinstall and post-install scripts, plus dependencies for every package that you're going to want on all machines of the class.

The way I typically set up a machine is with a canned (fire-and-forget) KickStart CD to get the lowest-common-denominator in place, then urpmi $(cat list-of-needed-packages).

If I wanted to get fancy I could add a handful of packages to the local repository with names like "ck-server" and "ck-workstation" to make that a one-liner, and/or make the KickStart read keywords from the KickStart's initial append= line. That way I could have one KickStart CD and type something like "linux requires=domain base=mycorp.com.au,othercorp.net.au@123.45.67.89" at the boot prompt to get a "blank" (no users or content defined but otherwise fully functional) DNS/web/email server.
...also, forgot to mention than Mandriva writes a KickStart image to /root/drakx/replay_install.img by default. If you've set a machine up, and want to set up another just like it, simply boot from that, no foresight required.

If you want to set up something slightly different, edit the auto_inst.cfg.pl file -- yes, that is PERL, with all of the scope implied.

To head off any angst, this kind of flexibility is not unique to Mandriva, nor to RPM-based distros. DEB packaging, forex, has lots of hooks for this kind of stuff.

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