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The Dangers of Dictating Procurement
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Comments (20)
What happend to LXer?
LXer is a NEWS site. It carries news related to Linux.
Is or is not the article news relating to Linux?
The Linux community is not a monolithic whole. Some LInux users may agree with the article. But in the end, even whether or not any given article matches the views of most LXer readers doesn't matter. If it's news concerning Linux, LXer should carry it. In fact, it can be argued that it's even more important that LXer carry news articles which don't match our viewpoints. That way we're aware of the opposition and can work to overcome it.
If you don't like a particular article, then simply say so. Don't blame LXer for carrying it. They're doing what they're supposed to do, informing their readers.
Is or is not the article news relating to Linux?
The Linux community is not a monolithic whole. Some LInux users may agree with the article. But in the end, even whether or not any given article matches the views of most LXer readers doesn't matter. If it's news concerning Linux, LXer should carry it. In fact, it can be argued that it's even more important that LXer carry news articles which don't match our viewpoints. That way we're aware of the opposition and can work to overcome it.
If you don't like a particular article, then simply say so. Don't blame LXer for carrying it. They're doing what they're supposed to do, informing their readers.
A number of articles have been posted lately which are purportedly FOSS friendly but are actually questionable. I believe that it's not only appropriate, but critical that we be given a chance to debunk articles like this that are biased or just plain lies...
These articles are out there with the intent of fooling people. Not bringing them under scrutiny is far worse than posting them on LXer where 'we know' they'll get analyzed, and, torn down... As you did just now :).
These articles are out there with the intent of fooling people. Not bringing them under scrutiny is far worse than posting them on LXer where 'we know' they'll get analyzed, and, torn down... As you did just now :).
> What the hell is this article doing on LXer. Will someone in charge of what gets posted in Newswire please come clean. Has LXer changed from being pro-Open Source to anti-Open Source?
You apparently missed my comment, posted in the lead to the article (the description you see on the front page). I suggest you read that to see what I had to say about the article. The article is important for us to be aware of, and hope inspire some folks to action. My response to the article's author will follow in the morning. You might consider passing the word. People do need to know about this article and respond to it.
Don In charge of what gets posted ;-)
You apparently missed my comment, posted in the lead to the article (the description you see on the front page). I suggest you read that to see what I had to say about the article. The article is important for us to be aware of, and hope inspire some folks to action. My response to the article's author will follow in the morning. You might consider passing the word. People do need to know about this article and respond to it.
Don In charge of what gets posted ;-)
>In fact, it can be argued that it's even more important that LXer carry news articles which don't match our viewpoints.
Wrong. There are plenty of anti-Open Source news sites that will do that job for you. They aren't going to start posting pro-Open Source stories. Something has changed at LXer. I've been reading Newswire all along. Has something been posted elsewhere on this site that explains the 180 on some of the views? Please direct me to it so I can formally remove LXer from my bookmarks.
Wrong. There are plenty of anti-Open Source news sites that will do that job for you. They aren't going to start posting pro-Open Source stories. Something has changed at LXer. I've been reading Newswire all along. Has something been posted elsewhere on this site that explains the 180 on some of the views? Please direct me to it so I can formally remove LXer from my bookmarks.
Thanks Don. You hit the enter key before me. I'll look forward to your response.
kozmcrae: >"What the hell is this article doing on LXer. Will someone in charge of what gets posted in Newswire please come clean. Has LXer changed from being pro-Open Source to anti-Open Source?"
jdixon and jimf didn't leave a lot to add.
Check the "About" link. LXer "is a fully independent news and opinion site". LXer is here to "present information about GNU/Linux and free/open source software".
Scroll through the Newswire, Forums, Features, Migrations, and HOWTOs. You will find the good, the bad and the ugly (and sometimes the hilarious). Those hold the information and opinions.
You apparently disagree with the content of the posted article and you found the means that LXer provides for posting a comment about it. I can't find any where to post such a disagreement on the site hosting the article. It looks to me like LXer is accomplishing its mission.
How about dissecting that article and pointing out everything in it that you think the author got wrong? He doesn't seem to want any feedback cluttering up his tale, but a lot of people will see what you have to say, here.
jdixon and jimf didn't leave a lot to add.
Check the "About" link. LXer "is a fully independent news and opinion site". LXer is here to "present information about GNU/Linux and free/open source software".
Scroll through the Newswire, Forums, Features, Migrations, and HOWTOs. You will find the good, the bad and the ugly (and sometimes the hilarious). Those hold the information and opinions.
You apparently disagree with the content of the posted article and you found the means that LXer provides for posting a comment about it. I can't find any where to post such a disagreement on the site hosting the article. It looks to me like LXer is accomplishing its mission.
How about dissecting that article and pointing out everything in it that you think the author got wrong? He doesn't seem to want any feedback cluttering up his tale, but a lot of people will see what you have to say, here.
It's my opinion that we do need to bring some things to the attention of our readers. Readers cannot act on what they do not know about. If there is an anti-FOSS article on LXer, it is most assuredly for your education. Knowledge is power. But it is only power if we act on the knowledge.
Remember all the press conferences by the Sadam's press officer, with our troops surrounding Bagdad? They tried to hide the facts from their people. I won't hide the facts from our people. We'll let Bill Hilf and Steve Ballmer do that for their people. Meanwhile, we'll know what's going on on both sides of the battle.
Remember all the press conferences by the Sadam's press officer, with our troops surrounding Bagdad? They tried to hide the facts from their people. I won't hide the facts from our people. We'll let Bill Hilf and Steve Ballmer do that for their people. Meanwhile, we'll know what's going on on both sides of the battle.
> here are plenty of anti-Open Source news sites that will do that job for you.
Site which most of us here don't visit and wouldn't bother to read if they somehow showed up on our screens. At LXer we can get both sides of the story. If the article actually happens to have any good points, you can be fairly sure that someone will point them out.
But, if you actually have a problem with LXer, then I recommend you email the editors and/or owner in private mail and discuss it with them. Then, if you concerns are not addressed, you can leave knowing that you've tried. I wish you luck in finding a Linux news site more to your tastes. If you find one, please provide a link to it here so we can all check it out.
Site which most of us here don't visit and wouldn't bother to read if they somehow showed up on our screens. At LXer we can get both sides of the story. If the article actually happens to have any good points, you can be fairly sure that someone will point them out.
But, if you actually have a problem with LXer, then I recommend you email the editors and/or owner in private mail and discuss it with them. Then, if you concerns are not addressed, you can leave knowing that you've tried. I wish you luck in finding a Linux news site more to your tastes. If you find one, please provide a link to it here so we can all check it out.
Didn't we just have this conversation guys?
He should be happy he actually gets to tell it like he see's it and get a real response.
He should be happy he actually gets to tell it like he see's it and get a real response.
Well, he responded well once I responded. I question his rush to judgement, but now he seems to understand. Let's leave it at that.
About the Heartland Institute...
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institu...
No surprise there.
Is it correct to apply the label "think tank" to an organization that clearly has nothing to do with either executing or encouraging the practice of thinking for oneself?
No surprise there.
Is it correct to apply the label "think tank" to an organization that clearly has nothing to do with either executing or encouraging the practice of thinking for oneself?
> Is it correct to apply the label "think tank" to an organization that clearly has nothing to do with either executing or encouraging the practice of thinking for oneself?
Interestingly, the term "drink tank" came to my mind - I'm not sure I want any of whatever they've been drinking.
And thanks for the link. I ran across a link to SourceWatch, but it referenced another institute (AdTI), and I didn't have time to check further for Heartland.
Interestingly, the term "drink tank" came to my mind - I'm not sure I want any of whatever they've been drinking.
And thanks for the link. I ran across a link to SourceWatch, but it referenced another institute (AdTI), and I didn't have time to check further for Heartland.
"Spin tank"?
BTW don't bother trying to refute them; expose them instead. People don't care whether facts are true or false -- that's just our professional deformation --, but they love them to be juicy ;-)
BTW don't bother trying to refute them; expose them instead. People don't care whether facts are true or false -- that's just our professional deformation --, but they love them to be juicy ;-)
Martin -
Yes, with an asterisk.
I agree that there is not point in refuting these spin tanks per se.
Better simply to expose them, but it's also good to provide useful alternative information.
That is not the same as a refutation.
A refutation lets the other party take control of the conversation and, worse, lets them define which points are important.
Unless you are real damned sure that other readers/listeners/etc will consider those points so important they must be addressed, better to deal with your alternative story and the points you want people to consider.
Yes, with an asterisk.
I agree that there is not point in refuting these spin tanks per se.
Better simply to expose them, but it's also good to provide useful alternative information.
That is not the same as a refutation.
A refutation lets the other party take control of the conversation and, worse, lets them define which points are important.
Unless you are real damned sure that other readers/listeners/etc will consider those points so important they must be addressed, better to deal with your alternative story and the points you want people to consider.
dinotrac:
What you say makes very good sense for a debate, a courtroom or a political campaign. Those have limited participants.
A point-by-point refutation of any particular output of such a "spin tank" by any particular community member has little danger of putting control into the hands of that spin tank. This is because there will likely be multiple responses to that output, at multiple levels.
Look back at what happened with Ken Brown's attempt to claim that Linux is a derivative of Minix. Just pop this into a Google search: Ken Brown Linux. Three very common words, but what will pop out is an illustration of a distributed rebuttal.
What you say makes very good sense for a debate, a courtroom or a political campaign. Those have limited participants.
A point-by-point refutation of any particular output of such a "spin tank" by any particular community member has little danger of putting control into the hands of that spin tank. This is because there will likely be multiple responses to that output, at multiple levels.
Look back at what happened with Ken Brown's attempt to claim that Linux is a derivative of Minix. Just pop this into a Google search: Ken Brown Linux. Three very common words, but what will pop out is an illustration of a distributed rebuttal.
grouch:
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
The biggest problem with a direct rebuttal, like Tannenbaum's, is getting the reader to the end. But, what the hey -- those who are already invested in the issue will follow it all the way through, nothing wrong with that.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
The biggest problem with a direct rebuttal, like Tannenbaum's, is getting the reader to the end. But, what the hey -- those who are already invested in the issue will follow it all the way through, nothing wrong with that.
I struggled to read this sham of a report. Clearly the name Heartland is meant to imply all that is good and wholesome and when you see an 'institute' with a name like that, well... the more I read of the article, the more it struck me that this operation has 'special interest group for hire' stamped all over it. Vaguely reminiscent of m$'s 'Get the Facts' trash. Maybe these guys are actually tied back to billy and monkey boy through some politician or lobby operation.
Good job, Don! You nailed them on every one of their twisted points.
Good job, Don! You nailed them on every one of their twisted points.
>Clearly the name Heartland is meant to imply all that is good and wholesome and when you see an 'institute' with a name like that, well...
Actually, the states making up the geographic center of the US (aka: the midwest) have long been know as the heartland. There are thousands of businesses incorporating the word 'heartland' into their names.
There's plenty of FUD coming from this group and we should concentrate on debunking it. There's no need to cast aspersions that cannot be proven.
Actually, the states making up the geographic center of the US (aka: the midwest) have long been know as the heartland. There are thousands of businesses incorporating the word 'heartland' into their names.
There's plenty of FUD coming from this group and we should concentrate on debunking it. There's no need to cast aspersions that cannot be proven.
> Actually, the states making up the geographic center of the US (aka: the midwest)
That was my take on it. They're based in Chicago, so it fits. There is also the Pacific Research Institute, which I believe is located in Washington state.
That was my take on it. They're based in Chicago, so it fits. There is also the Pacific Research Institute, which I believe is located in Washington state.
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What the hell is this article doing on LXer. Will someone in charge of what gets posted in Newswire please come clean. Has LXer changed from being pro-Open Source to anti-Open Source?