Ubuntu Makes Opera 9 Available For Download

I think we've reached the level of the axiom. By that I mean that in math you can argue theorems till the cows come home. You can prove theorems. You can find fallacies in the proofs of previously believed theorems. But you can't argue with the axioms. The axioms just are. They define that particular universe. And they are different for different logical systems. Euclidean geometry has its axioms. Hyperbolic geometry has slightly different ones. And within their particular geometry, they are immutable. The words 'agree' and 'disagree' have little real meaning when applied to the axioms of different logical systems.

I think this thread has reached a similar level regarding our own "ethical axioms".

Or, to be more succinct and probably a hell of a lot more clear: I think we're arguing religion. ;-)

tuxchick2,

I have contributed a fair amount of both my professional and personal time advocating free software. In addition to my Windows Refund campaign, working with the New York GNU/Linux Scene and New Yorkers for Fair Use, I've given many speeches on the topic and feel confident that I am viewed as someone who is willing and helpful by those who know me. All this doesn't even touch what I've done professionally. Years ago, I threw my entire NT-administrator-based career to the wayside because I realized I couldn't live a lie by advocating free software only during "off hours". Despite the risks I took on that are associated with unemployment, I stuck to my guns and am happy to report that I now make a very nice living supporting *only* free software. In fact, my job title is "GNU/Linux Systems Administrator".

You might want to do a better job of qualifying those who you are so quick to shoot down. As a member of the free software community, I have every right to hold LXer.com accountable. In fact, if you understood the issues involved, you would realize that it is, in fact, my obligation. You would also understand that I am treating you with more respect than you realize because I am hell bent on protecting your freedoms. We don't have to like each other *but* whether you know it or not, you deserve to have your freedoms 0-3 protected.

You should be thanking me and everyone else associated with the FS movement.

http://windowsrefund.info http://nyfairuse.org http://nylxs.com

"As a member of the free software community, I have every right to hold LXer.com accountable." Say what? That's a complete non-sequitur.

Your other activities, however wonderful they may be, don't make your endless criticizing and complaining here any more palatable.

tuxchick2,

Quite ironic when I consider how much you've contributed to this thread. It's been nothing but complaining and jumping on the bandwagon from your end. Maybe you should change your nick to tuxgroupie?

> I am hell bent on protecting your freedoms. We don't have to like each other *but* whether you know it or not, you deserve to have your freedoms 0-3 protected.

>You should be thanking me and everyone else associated with the FS movement.

Gee thank you Nanny.... or is that Massa? I'm also pretty sure that you 'don't' speak for 'everyone else associated with the FS movement.

Way too much concern about controling, and, all to little concern for actual freedom from where I stand.

jimf,

We're talking about freedoms 0-3. I guess you missed that part?

It's times like these when I really have to hand it to RMS. His ability to tolerate the same mindless resistance over and over again is simply amazing. The same misunderstandings, the same cop outs, the same boring excuses fueled from laziness and/or greed.

Once in awhile though, logic prevails and a new ally is born. It could be happening right now in fact...

wind0wsr3fund,

The only thing you've accomplished in this thread is to create adversaries.

tuxchick2,

"Your other activities, however wonderful they may be, don't make your endless criticizing and complaining here any more palatable."

Palatable.... interesting choice of wording that reflects the short sighted agenda of the OS community (and I use the word "community" VERY loosely).

In response, I'll remind you that the affect of the medicine is far more important that its initial taste.

jimf,

That's YOUR decision, not mine.

Guys, think what you will but I'm with wind0wsr3fund on this. I may not agree with his style and I have my own ways of advocating Free Software, but his posts lately make more sense than yours.

To be honest I think your posts are just mostly cop-outs, as wind0wsr3fund said.

Jimf, I think the blame for creating any adversaries is starting to go both ways. Not everyone here has really shown enough of an open mind to what he was saying in the first place, and now continue riding that bandwagon.

If you can't agree then at least resist the urge to downplay the one who still has something reasonable to say.

He has just posted about his involvement in Free Software advocacy, sacrifices he made for the goal, and yet all you can do is keep banging the same old complaint against him. I don't necessarily agree with his stance on LXer and his style either, but I can separate that from other things he is saying and address them properly. You apparently can't.

And I'm getting tired of running in circles with you guys.

> If you can't agree then at least resist the urge to downplay the one who still has something reasonable to say.

I think that everyone here has already evaluated the information and come to their own conclusions. It's not like we don't have all the information, or, that we are incapable of understanding it. Continuing to hammer on it is not 'converting' anyone. At that point, it's 'not' reasonable. Just drop it. Come back to fight another day if you will. but, stop trying to shove it down people's throats.

Honestly, If I were to select people to advance the cause of the GPL, that is the last technique I'd want to see used.

Anyway, I'm out of it.

Libervis,

I'd love to chat. Perhaps we can do something constructive together. If you're interested, I can be reached at akosmin AT windowsrefund.info

I tried to get out quite a bit up there in the thread, but the continuing conversation and some responses prompted me to respond too..

That said I agree Jimf. I should be out too (and hopefully I wont have to respond again ;) ).

Let's all try very hard not to say anything controversial. :-P (That's a little joke.)

I guess it's good we got through 138 posts without invoking the 'N' word, though.

-Steve

Novell?

Why Novell? Hehe..

Btw, wind0wsr3fund: mail sent. :)

He just had to say the 'N' word ;-)....

Libervis,

I've heard Jack Messman's pitch about OS and CS working so beatifully together many times. As a result, my impression of the the company is simply that they cater to (perhaps even depend on?) fence sitters.

Well I think Novell wouldn't be the only company with that kind of attitude. These companies were mostly attracted to the whole "open source" business for their own good. The fact that it is at an increasingly good reputation for obvious reasons only helps them. Most of them probably wouldn't blink an eye if the process was vice versa (say if the world was all Free Software dominated and the proprietary software model was getting to be the next big thing).

So it's nothing to wonder, and we vote by our own choices. If we don't approve of something Novell does, at least we have a choice of many other distros.

Does it depend on the supposed fence sitters? Maybe. Probably. But as said, they're not the only ones. Ultimately it's up to us to dictate their behaviour and I think that in the world of Free Software that they have set their foot into, we have a much greater force behind us to pressure them: all the choice of alternative distros and companies we can switch to almost on a whim if we start disliking someone like Novell.

In a proprietary world this is much harder because the lockin is harsher.