- Site menu:
- Latest Discussions
- Latest Newswire
- Archives
- Submit Story
- Story HOWTO
- Syndicate
- E-mail Alerts
Ubuntu 6.06 Is Current Desktop Linux Champ
|
|
|
Comments (30)
10 earlier comments in the full thread.
Jason,
Good point about network effects. One thing that has really impressed me about Ubuntu and its community is the level of synergy apparent in the Ubuntu forums. For a group that is normally assumed to be newbie dominated, it's about the most productive and helpful Linux forum I've ever encountered.
Its the community as much as the distro that has so impressed me with Ubuntu.
Good point about network effects. One thing that has really impressed me about Ubuntu and its community is the level of synergy apparent in the Ubuntu forums. For a group that is normally assumed to be newbie dominated, it's about the most productive and helpful Linux forum I've ever encountered.
Its the community as much as the distro that has so impressed me with Ubuntu.
> Every popular distro has good packaging.
Care to try again.
By the definitions you're using, the #11 distribution on Distrowatch does not have packaging. Neither do most of it's derivatives, which include #15, #16, and #17.
> unless you are willing to believe that PCLinuxOS and Elive Linux are more relevant than RedHat.
For the home user, PCLinuxOS and Elive are definitely more relevant than RedHat. Red Hat does not release a home use distribution.
Care to try again.
By the definitions you're using, the #11 distribution on Distrowatch does not have packaging. Neither do most of it's derivatives, which include #15, #16, and #17.
> unless you are willing to believe that PCLinuxOS and Elive Linux are more relevant than RedHat.
For the home user, PCLinuxOS and Elive are definitely more relevant than RedHat. Red Hat does not release a home use distribution.
> Which is really just a good example of why distrowatch rankings mean nothing.
I agree that they are only meaningful in a very limited context, but, I fail to see how one can totally ignore the site. DistroWatch is definitely the most comprehensive database of available Distros...
I agree that they are only meaningful in a very limited context, but, I fail to see how one can totally ignore the site. DistroWatch is definitely the most comprehensive database of available Distros...
>"When you bring home a printer that doesn't work with Linux right out of the box, for instance, do you think it's more likely that you'll find help making it work for Ubuntu or for PCLinuxOS?"
Yes. I mean, they both use Linux, that wee little kernel thing that runs so many devices all over the world without people even realizing it. If that printer is supported by Linux, it's supported by PCLinuxOS, Ubuntu, Debian GNU/Linux, Red Hat Linux, etc., etc.
Yes. I mean, they both use Linux, that wee little kernel thing that runs so many devices all over the world without people even realizing it. If that printer is supported by Linux, it's supported by PCLinuxOS, Ubuntu, Debian GNU/Linux, Red Hat Linux, etc., etc.
Think he is talking about the support grouch... In which case pclinux or kanotix, or even mepis is better than ubuntu.
Oh, you mean, as in someone to help set it up?
I took the "work with Linux right out of the box" to mean a 'driver' issue, which of course would be dependent on the way the kernel was compiled. I don't know of any distro not using a modular kernel nowadays.
Ease of setup could very well be the value-add of a particular distro. LFS will definitely not hold your hand, while several of the big ones might pop up a dialog box as soon as the printer is plugged in.
I took the "work with Linux right out of the box" to mean a 'driver' issue, which of course would be dependent on the way the kernel was compiled. I don't know of any distro not using a modular kernel nowadays.
Ease of setup could very well be the value-add of a particular distro. LFS will definitely not hold your hand, while several of the big ones might pop up a dialog box as soon as the printer is plugged in.
Here's an example, guys: http://home.arcor.de/wittawat/pixma/
This page provides info on how to get Canon's Pixma MP scanner working with sane--these instructions could work for any Linux distro, but there happen to be step-by-step instructions for Ubuntu.
Here's another example--you want to run VMware Workstation on your Linux box. If you're not running a distro and kernel verison for which VMware bundles drivers in its installer tarball, you're going to have to compile the drivers. You can do this on any distro, but some make it easier than others -- like typing sudo apt-get install build-essential to get the packages you need to compile the driver. Of course, Ubuntu is a supported distro of VMware, so you don't even need to take this step -- unless you're already on Edgy or you compile your own kernel.
Hey though, why the apparent hostility? Like, is it that the Ubuntu Man is trying to hold down the mini-distros you guys love? Look, if PCLinuxOS et al are better than the Ubuntus and Gentoos and Fedoras of the world, then these obscure/up-and-coming distros will grow in popularity and become more widely used. That's what's great about FLOSS -- we've all got choices.
Also, I'm installing PCLinuxOS on a VM right now. If I write something about it, I'll post a link in this thread.
This page provides info on how to get Canon's Pixma MP scanner working with sane--these instructions could work for any Linux distro, but there happen to be step-by-step instructions for Ubuntu.
Here's another example--you want to run VMware Workstation on your Linux box. If you're not running a distro and kernel verison for which VMware bundles drivers in its installer tarball, you're going to have to compile the drivers. You can do this on any distro, but some make it easier than others -- like typing sudo apt-get install build-essential to get the packages you need to compile the driver. Of course, Ubuntu is a supported distro of VMware, so you don't even need to take this step -- unless you're already on Edgy or you compile your own kernel.
Hey though, why the apparent hostility? Like, is it that the Ubuntu Man is trying to hold down the mini-distros you guys love? Look, if PCLinuxOS et al are better than the Ubuntus and Gentoos and Fedoras of the world, then these obscure/up-and-coming distros will grow in popularity and become more widely used. That's what's great about FLOSS -- we've all got choices.
Also, I'm installing PCLinuxOS on a VM right now. If I write something about it, I'll post a link in this thread.
> but there happen to be step-by-step instructions for Ubuntu.
And I just recently pointed someone to step by step instructions for getting a program working under wine that was written for Gentoo. This is true for any distribution.
> You can do this on any distro, but some make it easier than others -- like typing sudo apt-get install build-essential to get the packages you need to compile the driver
And some come with the packages you need to compile the driver already installed.
> you want to run VMware Workstation on your Linux box.
http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=4265
for Slackware, which is not officially supported by VMware.
> Hey though, why the apparent hostility?
Your claims as to Ubuntu's greatness are exaggerated, to put it mildly. Yes, it's a good distribution. Is it the be-all and end-all of distributions? No, it's one distribution among many. There are half a dozen or more distributions which are on par with it, and dozens more not significantly worse. Many of those may meet a specific user's needs better than Ubuntu.
And I just recently pointed someone to step by step instructions for getting a program working under wine that was written for Gentoo. This is true for any distribution.
> You can do this on any distro, but some make it easier than others -- like typing sudo apt-get install build-essential to get the packages you need to compile the driver
And some come with the packages you need to compile the driver already installed.
> you want to run VMware Workstation on your Linux box.
http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=4265
for Slackware, which is not officially supported by VMware.
> Hey though, why the apparent hostility?
Your claims as to Ubuntu's greatness are exaggerated, to put it mildly. Yes, it's a good distribution. Is it the be-all and end-all of distributions? No, it's one distribution among many. There are half a dozen or more distributions which are on par with it, and dozens more not significantly worse. Many of those may meet a specific user's needs better than Ubuntu.
Which is your favorite, jdixon?
> Which is your favorite, jdixon?
Slackware.
Slackware.
I knew jdixon was crazy! Slackware is for crazy folk [tm].
(Anyone who thinks that is a slur just hasn't used slack long enough. It holds a special place in the heart of many people, just like the first love.)
This business of crowning a "[c]hamp" is just wrong. Each user should try on distributions until one feels right. The tailoring can then begin.
This is not the MS world, where you pick a shrink-wrapped brick and you're stuck with it. You can literally transform one distribution into another without loss of data. (It's much easier to simply install another distro, but you could do it piecemeal, if you're hard-headed enough).
jdixon: >"Many of those may meet a specific user's needs better than Ubuntu."
That cuts to the heart of it. A specific user should be encouraged to try out as many different distributions as it takes to find the one that 'feels right', whether that user is an individual, a whole business, a department, a class or a government.
The "Champ" is that distro which meets a specific user's needs best, in the opinion of that specific user.
(Anyone who thinks that is a slur just hasn't used slack long enough. It holds a special place in the heart of many people, just like the first love.)
This business of crowning a "[c]hamp" is just wrong. Each user should try on distributions until one feels right. The tailoring can then begin.
This is not the MS world, where you pick a shrink-wrapped brick and you're stuck with it. You can literally transform one distribution into another without loss of data. (It's much easier to simply install another distro, but you could do it piecemeal, if you're hard-headed enough).
jdixon: >"Many of those may meet a specific user's needs better than Ubuntu."
That cuts to the heart of it. A specific user should be encouraged to try out as many different distributions as it takes to find the one that 'feels right', whether that user is an individual, a whole business, a department, a class or a government.
The "Champ" is that distro which meets a specific user's needs best, in the opinion of that specific user.
I agree that what's best is for the individual user to decide. Our reviews in eWEEK offer up our opinions, based on our testing -- I think it's important to cover multiple options, which is why I write so much about Linux in the first place. The vast majority of our readers run Windows, after all.
The Linux distros that have my attention, right now, are Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL, CentOS, SLED, SLES, OpenSUSE, and Gentoo. These are the distros with which I most often come into contact, and, I guess, the ones that've most impressed me so far, not only as end-product distros, but for the development, support and maintenance structures that surround them, and for their status as spawning grounds for other distros. I'm going to write soon about rPath, as well.
I still cover Windows, Mac, Solaris (and way too infrequently, BSD), along with virtualization software and a handful of other topics -- there's only so much time to devote to distros, but I'm interested in your opinions about which ones deserve more attention.
The Linux distros that have my attention, right now, are Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL, CentOS, SLED, SLES, OpenSUSE, and Gentoo. These are the distros with which I most often come into contact, and, I guess, the ones that've most impressed me so far, not only as end-product distros, but for the development, support and maintenance structures that surround them, and for their status as spawning grounds for other distros. I'm going to write soon about rPath, as well.
I still cover Windows, Mac, Solaris (and way too infrequently, BSD), along with virtualization software and a handful of other topics -- there's only so much time to devote to distros, but I'm interested in your opinions about which ones deserve more attention.
Jason,
Please stop being so reasonable. You are destroying the cherished image that we have around here of Eweek writers as a bunch of mindless, incompetent, Microsoft shills who'll do anything, and spew any falsehoods, for a click. ;-)
Please stop being so reasonable. You are destroying the cherished image that we have around here of Eweek writers as a bunch of mindless, incompetent, Microsoft shills who'll do anything, and spew any falsehoods, for a click. ;-)
Please don't doubt our evil -- maybe more interaction with you guys will mean more clicks... :)
and PCLinuxOS lands solidly in my niche distro category....
You stand alone counting your niches I would say. I've used pclos in a three city, 30+ computer network for over a year and have not only found it reliable, even the most unrepentant slobbering computer idiot in my company can use it. Everything works out of the box...even my nasty Brother printer/fax/scanner/bottle washer/valet machines were a snap to set up.
I believe "niche" is a word people like to toss around in a derisive manner like 'liberal" or "conservative". While the actual word leaves no bruises, the connotation is obviously negative.
We have 12 year old kids and 86 year old great grandmothers using pclos with little and most times no need for level 2 support. They even used the community written wiki to set up their networks and dialup situations. One elderly lady went as far as to set up a multi-hub file sharing (read Screw-You-Cary-Sherman) network using nothing but the pclos wiki. The "mine is better than yours" banter gets tiresome after a while, but the facts is the facts...if pclos is a niche distro, we have a spectacularly large niche. Tens of thousands of new users alone in the first half of 2006...of course, I hear they have a hell of a marketing guy working for them. That can make all the difference in the world. Of course, so can having a sugar daddy who supplys millions to his pet cause between space flights. Sure wish I could tap into some of that.
h
You stand alone counting your niches I would say. I've used pclos in a three city, 30+ computer network for over a year and have not only found it reliable, even the most unrepentant slobbering computer idiot in my company can use it. Everything works out of the box...even my nasty Brother printer/fax/scanner/bottle washer/valet machines were a snap to set up.
I believe "niche" is a word people like to toss around in a derisive manner like 'liberal" or "conservative". While the actual word leaves no bruises, the connotation is obviously negative.
We have 12 year old kids and 86 year old great grandmothers using pclos with little and most times no need for level 2 support. They even used the community written wiki to set up their networks and dialup situations. One elderly lady went as far as to set up a multi-hub file sharing (read Screw-You-Cary-Sherman) network using nothing but the pclos wiki. The "mine is better than yours" banter gets tiresome after a while, but the facts is the facts...if pclos is a niche distro, we have a spectacularly large niche. Tens of thousands of new users alone in the first half of 2006...of course, I hear they have a hell of a marketing guy working for them. That can make all the difference in the world. Of course, so can having a sugar daddy who supplys millions to his pet cause between space flights. Sure wish I could tap into some of that.
h
> Oh, you mean, as in someone to help set it up?
No, actually just somewhere to go and ask for advise when you run into a problem... Like the pclos, or kanotix forums, or IRC channels maintained by various Distros and groups. Chances are very good that you can get immediate help.
No, actually just somewhere to go and ask for advise when you run into a problem... Like the pclos, or kanotix forums, or IRC channels maintained by various Distros and groups. Chances are very good that you can get immediate help.
> your opinions about which ones deserve more attention.
Jason.
This is 'a little' dated', but, gives my take on it... http://jimf-linux.blogspot.com/2005/10/why-debian.html
Jason.
This is 'a little' dated', but, gives my take on it... http://jimf-linux.blogspot.com/2005/10/why-debian.html
> The Linux distros that have my attention, right now, are Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL, CentOS, SLED, SLES, OpenSUSE, and Gentoo.
Your list sounds heavily skewed towards the business user. RHEL, CentOS, SLED, and SLES are by definition aimed at the business market. Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, and Gentoo are more general purpose distributions, but of those only OpenSUSE and possibly Ubuntu are really suited for the home user. I'd no more point a new home user to Fedora or Gentoo than I would Slackware.
You might want to take a look here:
http://www.homedistro.com/
It reviews distributions from a home user perspective. Not surprisingly, none of it's top three distributions are on your list. You may also want to check out their "Looks Almost Like MSW" list, as none of them are on your list either.
As for major distributions, you really should take a look at Mandriva.
Editted to correct stupid typos.
Your list sounds heavily skewed towards the business user. RHEL, CentOS, SLED, and SLES are by definition aimed at the business market. Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, and Gentoo are more general purpose distributions, but of those only OpenSUSE and possibly Ubuntu are really suited for the home user. I'd no more point a new home user to Fedora or Gentoo than I would Slackware.
You might want to take a look here:
http://www.homedistro.com/
It reviews distributions from a home user perspective. Not surprisingly, none of it's top three distributions are on your list. You may also want to check out their "Looks Almost Like MSW" list, as none of them are on your list either.
As for major distributions, you really should take a look at Mandriva.
Editted to correct stupid typos.
Quoting:When you bring home a printer that doesn't work with Linux right out of the box, for instance, do you think it's more likely that you'll find help making it work for Ubuntu or for PCLinuxOS? Right? How about when you're looking for someone to provide support for your distro?
PCLinuxOS. I don't have to ask anyone about it...I run through the wiki online or download a copy of the user manual. Then I run through the PCLinuxOS Control Center to point click my way to setting up a printer...it's the easiest setup I've ever seen for a printer in Linux. You really ought to try it out before you state what it can and can't do.
http://pclinuxonline.com/wiki
Check that link out and see what I mean. The new desktop user will be able to step their way to setting up their desktop. We wrote that with new users in mind...I've not seen a wiki comparable in desktop distros.
Quoting:So, great packaging does indeed make the desktop. Every popular distro has good packagingAgreed on the second sentence. Jury is still out on the first. PCLinuxOS is a popular distro. It has great packaging. But this doesn't set it apart from say...Berry Linux which has terrific packaging but seems to not be the most popular distro out there. Good packaging is only part of the deal. If you're speaking of 'great packaging' meaning the number of packages available...I'd have to say that you're misrepresenting yourself when you say that...because great packaging doesn't mean # of packages either.
Quoting:I'd never heard of this PCLinuxOS--I looked at the site--this a distro you've built yourself?Nope...Texstar, who used to package Mandrake RPMs unofficially back in the day is the creator.
Quoting:You can do this on any distro, but some make it easier than others -- like typing sudo apt-get install build-essential to get the packages you need to compile the driver.So if I'm reading your point correctly...if distros make it easy to use packages via apt-get...they're setup better because it is easier to install stuffs? Emerge be damned right? Forget Yum? Conary should keep arguing with Trebek? This doesn't make sense...but if we're arguing this point...PCLinuxOS uses apt for rpms. So the point is moot...apt is easy. I can install just about anything you can in Ubuntu in the same fashion...if I can't, I put the request in and within 24 hours I will be able to...Texstar is very motivated to provide whatever applications one needs.
Quoting:Hey though, why the apparent hostility? Like, is it that the Ubuntu Man is trying to hold down the mini-distros you guys love? Look, if PCLinuxOS et al are better than the Ubuntus and Gentoos and Fedoras of the world, then these obscure/up-and-coming distros will grow in popularity and become more widely used.No hostility here...we're debating. Last I checked this was still allowed in the Linux community :)
Really though, your implication of hostility says something. Many people who love and use Ubuntu also state this whenever someone challenges their distro. I've posted on my blog many times about Ubuntu and have been outright attacked by Ubuntu community members. Many state that I don't know what I'm talking about (that's a good one...I have two degrees and have been working with Linux since 1995). Many outright slander me and my entire look on Ubuntu...even though my look is given strictly as an opinion. It's pretty funny how it happens...but I don't mind. Like I said, I normally don't jump onto the bandwagon and hum KoomBayah with everyone. I let actions speak louder than words.
Let me share a link that is a bit dated (1 year or so old) of an experiment I did with a new Linux desktop user. I was a MEPIS user when I did this experiment and loved the ease of use SimplyMEPIS provided. After the experiment was over, I changed to PCLinuxOS because that's what the new Linux desktop user chose...The experiment proved to me what Linux desktops needed to do to get on peoples comptuers. The versions of the distros are outdated but the premise is the same. http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archives/79-Experiment-The-...
Please pay specific attention to the Ubuntu Review and check out the comment section where my wife (the new Linux user...we'd only been married for a year and a half) is BASHED by many Ubuntu users. This is what I spoke of when saying that the community doesn't merit the rating you gave it.
Here's a follow up to that article addressing the comments: http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archives/81-Animosity-Unfou...
And yet another Ubuntu Follow Up I posted later on geared toward new Linux users: http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archives/128-Why-Ubuntu-isn...
And another point...just because an operating system or distro is better doesn't mean that it will grow in popularity and overcome all other distros...the grapevine does not make or break a distro. Proof? Just look at OS/2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os2 ...much better than anything available during its time...but not adopted and widely used...so it "warped" itself into oblivion.
Quoting:As for major distributions, I you really should take a look at Mandriva.Agreed. Mandriva is a fantastic desktop distro and is one of the major heavy hitters out there. It's an experience not unlike PCLinuxOS...especially since PCLOS is a fork of Mandrake/iva 9.2 version...so it holds many roots from version 9.2 (such as the control center...but it's been hacked quite a bit/added to/removed etc.)
All of this discussion and I'm still not convinced that Ubuntu is the best desktop centric distribution. Original reasons of packaging are moot. Plus you forgot all together to address how a distro can require a power cycle during the review and not receive negative marks for it. You changed from the community angle to "tight desktop focus". This point doesn't make sense...Mandriva has had desktop focus since it's inception as Mandrake. PCLinuxOS forked from Mandrake/iva when they started to drift from this focus after 9.2 and continues to be all about desktop. So tight desktop focus is a reason it is the clear winner? I don't agree.
Quoting:I'd never heard of this PCLinuxOS--I looked at the site--this a distro you've built yourself? That's great, and I can see why you'd be sensitive to claims that popular distros are better than unpopular ones, but the fact remains: popularity does matter. See [HYPERLINK@en.wikipedia.org]You're actually speaking of Metcalfe's law here...and don't get me started on that. For every single application of this law, one can contradict it with a situation where it doesn't work.
Don't believe me? Try this....as a mailing list get's more users, it gets more popular. However, it doesn't become a better mailing list because of it, more users = more noise...with a huge influx of users, one may get lost in the posts. Many networks, particularly online communities such as newsgroups and mailing lists, suffer from negative factors as the number of members and connections increases. I'm not the only one who see's problems with Metcalfe's law of which network effect is a parent principal: http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/4109
That's why I stated Ubuntu is popular because it is popular. No other reason. It's the sheer volume of users that are driving it now. I don't doubt the network effect premise is at work, popularity does drive a distro up the chain (if there is a 'chain)...I just doubt that quantity also means quality...# of users does not = quality desktop as a rule.
Post a comment
A free account is needed to post. Write your comment here first: your text is kept in this browser while you sign up or log in, and is waiting for you when you come back.
Your message:Markdown: **bold**, *italic*, [text](https://link), - lists, > quotes, $x^2$ for math. Formatting help
Sign up and post (it is free) or Log in and post
Which is really just a good example of why distrowatch rankings mean nothing... unless you are willing to believe that PCLinuxOS and Elive Linux are more relevant than RedHat.
I don't work at eweek and definitely keep up with things Linux, and PCLinuxOS lands solidly in my niche distro category.