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The empire strikes back
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Comments (42)
22 earlier comments in the full thread.
Actually, Abe, MS started with Red Hat, and went to Novell after that failed. Or maybe you forgot about the infamous dinner between Matt & Steve way back when.
Quoting:Actually, Abe, MS started with Red Hat
I think you are right Don. but it doesn't really matter! Old age is my excuse, I am losing track here.:)
> Many of us are doing a lot of reasonable deductions and speculation, that is normal considering that everything is being done in secrecy.
I guess we have different definitions of 'reasonable', and you have a broad definition of 'speculation'. "We KNOW Dell does anything Microsoft tells them to do" is hardly speculation. Speculation should start with a disclaimer: "I actually don't know anything at all about this topic, but here is just one of many possible explanations for the facts." There's not a single post accusing Dell of wrongdoing on LXer the last couple of days that is backed up evidence.
> But sometimes we need to be careful what we wish for.
I'm sure you will be careful, I won't worry about it to much. Dell could give away Linux computers and most LXers wouldn't accept it out of fear that Microsoft paid Dell to do it. There would be many confident assertions about Dell's motives on these boards.
I guess we have different definitions of 'reasonable', and you have a broad definition of 'speculation'. "We KNOW Dell does anything Microsoft tells them to do" is hardly speculation. Speculation should start with a disclaimer: "I actually don't know anything at all about this topic, but here is just one of many possible explanations for the facts." There's not a single post accusing Dell of wrongdoing on LXer the last couple of days that is backed up evidence.
> But sometimes we need to be careful what we wish for.
I'm sure you will be careful, I won't worry about it to much. Dell could give away Linux computers and most LXers wouldn't accept it out of fear that Microsoft paid Dell to do it. There would be many confident assertions about Dell's motives on these boards.
> Dell could give away Linux computers and most LXers wouldn't accept it out of fear that Microsoft paid Dell to do it.
That's a gross exaggeration. I'm absolutely certain than no more than 49.99 % of LXer's would feel that way.
That's a gross exaggeration. I'm absolutely certain than no more than 49.99 % of LXer's would feel that way.
> That's a gross exaggeration. I'm absolutely certain than no more than 49.99 % of LXer's would feel that way.
Good idea, let's do a poll. Everybody can tell us whether or not they would accept a computer from Dell if it had Linux but not Windows installed. If not, please state your reasons.
Edit: I'm not actually serious about this.
Good idea, let's do a poll. Everybody can tell us whether or not they would accept a computer from Dell if it had Linux but not Windows installed. If not, please state your reasons.
Edit: I'm not actually serious about this.
Actually if DELL were giving away computers with Linux pre installed, and I suspected Microsoft of paying DELL to do it, I'd write a thank you note to Steve Ballmer.
> Everybody can tell us whether or not they would accept a computer from Dell if it had Linux but not Windows installed.
If Dell were giving away computers, I'd take it whether it had Linux on it or not. I can always load Slackware myself.
Added: Oh, and I think you missed my point, which is that you are at least partially correct. :)
If Dell were giving away computers, I'd take it whether it had Linux on it or not. I can always load Slackware myself.
Added: Oh, and I think you missed my point, which is that you are at least partially correct. :)
Quoting:Good idea, let's do a poll. Everybody can tell us whether or not they would accept a computer from Dell if it had Linux but not Windows installed. If not, please state your reasons.
I'd take one. Or more. Or a truckload. MS is paying so no sense in hiding my greed :-) I know of a bunch of schools that could use the computers.
Quoting:Dell could give away Linux computers and most LXers wouldn't accept it out of fear that Microsoft paid Dell to do it
Before I say I will definitely take one, I need to ask you whether I have to sign any contract or agreement. If no strings attached, I definitely want one. If I have to sign, then I have to check thinks out first.
You see Bigg, there is a long history we can learn from and makes us skeptical and cautious. ‘those who ignore the lessons of history are bound to repeat them’.
MS certainly has a long history and so does Dell, both are not trustworthy or comforting.
I hope you see where many of us are coming from.
I'll try to play a role of a vague predictor here. What Microsoft is doing with these deals is all they can really do before completely letting go and joining the GNU/Linux bandwagon. This stage will last for a while, but it will ultimately fail to deliver to Microsoft what they wish it to deliver.
It seems like many have missed what may be a hidden point behind these sentences of the article:
"The spread of Linux on the desktop is not going to come from the efforts of any big industry player; it is only going to come from concerted efforts by smaller players. Linux became what it is today by such efforts and it isn't going anywhere by any other methods."
This is really the key. It is the thing Microsoft should fear the most. It is the reason why Microsoft really can't defeat us. It is the community and its desire and consequent ability to change the world. Microsoft can try grabbing onto the power it inherited from the old world, but in a new world WE are creating, this cannot last for too long.
Microsoft will fail. What we are seeing is merely a process of leading to their failure.
If it were winning, we wouldn't be seeing them making deals with GNU/Linux related vendors and companies, would we? If we, the community, didn't make GNU/Linux THAT important and threatening, why would they do that? It is THEM who are reacting to us, not us to them.
So, tell me, who is the boss, really?
It seems like many have missed what may be a hidden point behind these sentences of the article:
"The spread of Linux on the desktop is not going to come from the efforts of any big industry player; it is only going to come from concerted efforts by smaller players. Linux became what it is today by such efforts and it isn't going anywhere by any other methods."
This is really the key. It is the thing Microsoft should fear the most. It is the reason why Microsoft really can't defeat us. It is the community and its desire and consequent ability to change the world. Microsoft can try grabbing onto the power it inherited from the old world, but in a new world WE are creating, this cannot last for too long.
Microsoft will fail. What we are seeing is merely a process of leading to their failure.
If it were winning, we wouldn't be seeing them making deals with GNU/Linux related vendors and companies, would we? If we, the community, didn't make GNU/Linux THAT important and threatening, why would they do that? It is THEM who are reacting to us, not us to them.
So, tell me, who is the boss, really?
Libervis, finally some sanity. Thanks.
BTW, all this talk about Dell? Why there is a whole database of Linux vendors on this site. We should be supporting them instead of the devil.
BTW, all this talk about Dell? Why there is a whole database of Linux vendors on this site. We should be supporting them instead of the devil.
> We should be supporting them instead
I agree. I'm not up for a new rig, but if I were, there are some sweet hardware deals in that list, with or without Linux. Dell quality doesn't even come close.
I agree. I'm not up for a new rig, but if I were, there are some sweet hardware deals in that list, with or without Linux. Dell quality doesn't even come close.
> BTW, all this talk about Dell?
For the same reason Ken is pursuing Tux500. Dell is known vendor with name recognition. When you say Dell is selling Linux, people will do a double take. How many of the vendors in the database can you say that about? You and I know that the Linux machine from the vendor in LXer's database is just as good. The average person doesn't.
For the same reason Ken is pursuing Tux500. Dell is known vendor with name recognition. When you say Dell is selling Linux, people will do a double take. How many of the vendors in the database can you say that about? You and I know that the Linux machine from the vendor in LXer's database is just as good. The average person doesn't.
> The average person doesn't.
So you're saying that to promote Linux to the average person, we should push mediocre computer hardware? Sorry, I'm not gonna do that. Truthfully, I'd never buy or recommend Dell. I didn't when I ran Windows, and, I'm sure not doing it now.
So you're saying that to promote Linux to the average person, we should push mediocre computer hardware? Sorry, I'm not gonna do that. Truthfully, I'd never buy or recommend Dell. I didn't when I ran Windows, and, I'm sure not doing it now.
Quoting:Truthfully, I'd never buy or recommend Dell. I didn't when I ran Windows, and, I'm sure not doing it now.I was just having this conversation with someone today. We were talking about how, before we even used Linux, we loathed the products Dell made. Why would we be thrilled to have Dell selling Linux boxes?
Suppose E-Machines started selling Linux.
> Why would we be thrilled to have Dell selling Linux boxes?
Well, not only that, but personally, I'd just rather support a small business that's busting it's butt to supply decent hardware and Linux than I would to support a corporate mega-giant anyday.
Well, not only that, but personally, I'd just rather support a small business that's busting it's butt to supply decent hardware and Linux than I would to support a corporate mega-giant anyday.
> So you're saying that to promote Linux to the average person, we should push mediocre computer hardware?
No. We don't have to. Like it or not, Dell will do that for us.
No. We don't have to. Like it or not, Dell will do that for us.
You'd be surprised how many people have a Dell horror story. Gateway, burned them first, btw.
LXer's database is just as good. The average person doesn't know..."
That's about to change. When Dell said no to our request, and I don't have any solid evidence that their reasons were anything BUT what they said they were, I got to thinkin'. Now usually, that means someone is about to get hurt and I'm going to spend the afternoon filling out insurance forms, but in this case, it worked out for the best.
check out the last few blogs at boh blog of helios.
AND...a response posted below from someone up in the Exec-U-Culture of ZaReason.com:
Wow, you know how to generate traffic! Please accept a profuse thank you.
Here's the About section I promised.....
ZaReason, Inc.
It does my heart good to see things like this. Yeah, I was excited about Dell at first too, Ubuntu or not. However, the perennial Christmas article warning people away from Dell still is valid due to their proprietary assembly line procedures and machine blueprint plans. I have to go into the archived old L4L site and see if I can dust it off and put it back into service. It outlines several things Dell does to thwart the do-it-yourselfer from rebuilding or upgrading her computer.
If memory serves me correctly, and there's no reason to think that it's going to start doing so now, I believe it was the Dell Dimension 2400 with the numerous hardware hacks that precluded after-market parts to be used. If you managed to McGuyver your way out of that, you had to deal with a Dell-hacked bios which proved to be the show stopper. Were they going (or ARE they going) to do the same with Linux computers? That's gonna go over like poop in a punchbowl.
I like the folks we are working with now...specifically ZaReason and PricePC.com. My man is right...better parts, better support, better price and we don't (knowingly) have to worry about MS pulling their strings for anything.
h
That's about to change. When Dell said no to our request, and I don't have any solid evidence that their reasons were anything BUT what they said they were, I got to thinkin'. Now usually, that means someone is about to get hurt and I'm going to spend the afternoon filling out insurance forms, but in this case, it worked out for the best.
check out the last few blogs at boh blog of helios.
AND...a response posted below from someone up in the Exec-U-Culture of ZaReason.com:
Wow, you know how to generate traffic! Please accept a profuse thank you.
Here's the About section I promised.....
ZaReason, Inc.
It does my heart good to see things like this. Yeah, I was excited about Dell at first too, Ubuntu or not. However, the perennial Christmas article warning people away from Dell still is valid due to their proprietary assembly line procedures and machine blueprint plans. I have to go into the archived old L4L site and see if I can dust it off and put it back into service. It outlines several things Dell does to thwart the do-it-yourselfer from rebuilding or upgrading her computer.
If memory serves me correctly, and there's no reason to think that it's going to start doing so now, I believe it was the Dell Dimension 2400 with the numerous hardware hacks that precluded after-market parts to be used. If you managed to McGuyver your way out of that, you had to deal with a Dell-hacked bios which proved to be the show stopper. Were they going (or ARE they going) to do the same with Linux computers? That's gonna go over like poop in a punchbowl.
I like the folks we are working with now...specifically ZaReason and PricePC.com. My man is right...better parts, better support, better price and we don't (knowingly) have to worry about MS pulling their strings for anything.
h
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Many of us are doing a lot of reasonable deductions and speculation, that is normal considering that everything is being done in secrecy. We wanted so much to have a big OEM to pre-install Linux and everyone got excited about Dell's move. But sometimes we need to be careful what we wish for.
This Dell move could be one of those cases.
MS tried to get closer to FOSS but wasn't welcomed due to its persistent bad habits. Now they are the un-invited guest into FOSS and they are doing that using their big influence in the industry, which is still substantial. They started with Novell, then Red Hat (failed) and now they are on it with Dell.
Although they appear to be winning, they are not. We went through such stage when SCO sued IBM, where is SCO now? Its just a phase and MS will run out of options. At that point, the real battle will begin because MS will start suing. I hope we are ready.