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Newbie flunks firefox update

Posted by Scott_Ruecker on · 37 comments
DesktopLinux.com; By Murry Shohat
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OK, Desktop Linux heads, I'm a confessed newbie trying to switch to Linux from XP. My simplyMEPIS install from an ISO went well, but now, on day two, my attempts to install the just-released Firefox update have failed.

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Comments (37)

17 earlier comments in the full thread.

>I was payed to say that.

Solangas uwuz payed.
Abe has some good points. Yes, the article author is a troll. But when you're replying to a trollish article, keep in mind who your real audience is- probably not the author, but a lot of readers who would benefit from helpful, polite responses.
> but a lot of readers who would benefit from helpful, polite responses.

Especially important when you consider that the most effective trolls start out with some kernel of truth -- something that others could look at and imagine themselves falling into.
Quoting:... so I stick with my original comment.
Ditto. The fewer lazy sponges using FOSS, the better. I've been going well out of my way to help noobs for more than a decade. Anyone who displays any tendency toward learning something is more than welcome to my help.

However, I'm not a babysitter, and they can learn to wipe their own damn nose, just like I did when I started.
>Ditto. The fewer lazy sponges using FOSS, the better.

You need to refresh yourself with the ideals of free software: freedom for users, not just programmers and not just experts.
Quoting:You need to refresh yourself with the ideals of free software: freedom for users, not just programmers and not just experts.
I am concentrating on freedom for users, but I didn't sign up for martyrdom. Nobody's paying me for my pearls of wisdom. I feel no obligation to give what I've given.

I help because I want to help. I help those who want to learn, so that one day they may help others. I'm not handing out free fish. My offer has always been to teach people to fish.

If they don't want to learn, there's plenty out there who have no problem with giving away their hard earned knowledge. I'm not one of them. I insist that my efforts have long-lasting, positive effects, else what's the point? Quickie magic bullets for lazy moochers don't interest me in the least. They're welcome to try to find them elsewhere. I don't play that game.

FOSS is not just a "free as in beer" version of Windows. That "free as in beer" comes with obligations to pass it on, the whole ball of wax, not to just give it away to twits who just want to cut costs.
Quoting:You need to refresh yourself with the ideals of free software: freedom for users, not just programmers and not just experts.


I would agree with you at first glance, but... There's always, a "but," isn't there? Allow me to explain.

For now, I work as a temp in a factory. Normally, I would put things in cartons, put the cartons in boxes, according to the requirements that I've learned over the past (N) months. There are several others like me.

However, due to a recent shake-up in the department, I'm no longer doing productive work as my mainstay. I'm doing a thing called "post-auditing," meaning I check other people's work before sending it to be stored or shipped.

I have done this before, and I am reasonably qualified to do it. The reason I stopped doing it before was because, after a couple months, I felt like a glorified babysitter. It wasn't the newbies who bothered me; it was people who had been there several months, who should have known how to do their jobs, but who couldn't be bothered to pay attention, that finally sent me over the edge. Someone else could deal with the apathy in the daily grind; I did it only to fill in for the next post-auditor when he was absent. Mercifully, those times were few.

Now, I'm doing it again, every day. The one other person on our shift who could do it, is needed elsewhere in the department. I have let our team leader know that I don't want to do this forever, and she understands. She was the glorified babysitter many moons ago. However, this time around, I'll put up with only so much b.s. and laziness: one warning from me on a particular mistake, and the next one goes to the attention of the team leader. I have too much real work to do, to add "babysitting" to it all.

How does this relate to FOSS and "lazy sponges"? It's actually quite simple. The article's author probably has on his bookshelf a whole row of books relating to Windows: "The Missing Manual," "For Dummies," "In 24 Hours," and the like. How much extra reading has he done for Windows? I'll be presumptuous and say probably quite a bit.

Well, where does he get his Windows updates? From Joe Blow's Hardware and Barbecue? Uh, maybe... in which case, he'd get his instructions on how to install those updates from Joe Blow. OTOH, if he gets his updates from Microsoft, like most normal people, he'd install them according to Microsoft's instructions.

Was this guy too dense to figure out the same applies to the Linux side? If you get your updates from Mozilla, you follow Mozilla's instructions on how to install them. If you get your updates from Mepis.org, then you follow the Mepis instructions for updating your system.

Is it possible for a coddled Windows user to convert to Linux? Yes. My mother did it, and it was her idea. I am her sysadmin, but I am helped tremendously by the fact that she knows what she doesn't know, and isn't afraid to ask for help when she needs it. My tech support experience makes my help more effective (I've learned how to explain things, and how to document for future reference), but she is willing to learn, and willing to admit when she needs help.

But just because she can't do something, doesn't mean she'll abandon Linux and return to Windows.

I won't go so far as tqk, but I will say Murray should stick to Windows for now, use Firefox, and everyone will be happy. Throw in Thunderbird, OpenOffice.org, and maybe Cygwin, and he can minimize Microsoft's grip on his system while still allowing him to be a productive netizen. When he is willing to climb the learning curve for desktop Linux (a very similar curve he already climbed with Windows), then he'll be ready to take the plunge.
>But just because she can't do something, doesn't mean she'll abandon Linux and return to Windows.

Ya know, just for fun, I went over to mozilla.com.

I guess it's been a long time since I actually read any of the stuff there because I was a little surprised to discover that instructions for installing on Linux are not that easy to find. Not ridiculously hard, but not that easy.

For example, click on "learn more", and you'll get - not much. You will find a link to release notes, and the release notes page has a link called "installing", but that just tells you that a new install overwrites the old one.

If you click on the "support" tab at the top of the page (any page), you will get a screen with a link to firefox help. Clicking that will take you to a page that has a link for the FAQ, a text entry box for the Knowledge Base, and a link to a tutorial, among other things.

The FAQ has a link for "How do I install Firefox?". Sounds great, but it just points you to the release notes which don't tell you how to install for Linux. And that's presuming you know what an FAQ is, and lots of Windows only folks don't.

The detailed tutorial does give very plain and simple instructions, for a Windows install.

Typing "Linux install" will bring up a knowledge base article that explains how to install Firefox -- from the command line and beginning with a wget to get firefox.

Sigh.

I think I'm beginning to understand why Windows users might get just a wee bit perplexed.
It doesn't matter much that Linux installation instructions on mozilla.com are not up to snuff. A regular Linux user should not go to mozilla.com for their new firefox in the first place. They should check with their distro. Teach *that* to new users.
>A regular Linux user should not go to mozilla.com for their new firefox in the first place.

Ummm:

1. "Regular" Linux users are not the issue, and 2. When a security update becomes available, it is not unreasonable to want it, even if your distro lags. After all, that's what you can do with Windows (at least for Firefox).
Does the Firefox automatic updater work under Linux at all? If not... can it not be implemented? IE, downloads the updates, then to install it you just punch in rour root password. - ? Surely the FF binaries are not distribution specific? I am not able to check right now.
Yes it works under Linux, I have an OpenSuse install whose firefox updates itself like in Windows.

My debian and zenwalk installs use ice weasel and are updated through the distro's repositories.

I think if you unpack the binary .tgz from Mozilla, and use that in your distro, it will update itself.

I have not looked into where the Suse version checks for updates.

If you install FF from mozilla, then you can have it auto update. But the ones that are included with the distros that feature is disabled quite often.
Quoting:Ya know, just for fun, I went over to mozilla.com


Dino brings up couple good & important points.

It seems Mozilla, and other open source outfits like OpenOffice.org, that release applications for Windows and Linux are catering more to Windows users than Linux user if at all.

Mozilla web site doesn't have any Linux install instruction, or at least I haven't found it if buried some where. That is not good. We are excited about novice users starting to give Linux a try. Wouldn't it make sense to make sure that those people have install instructions and all the documentation necessary to make it simple and easy to explore Linux?

Granted that most users will be coming from a Windows environment, but many of those will be giving Linux a try after they see what Mozilla has to offer.

I too haven't had to download FF for a long time since it normally gets installed as part of the distro or automatic updates. But, there are instances as Dino mentioned, where users want to be proactive on their own and apply fixes since distros don't have it quick enough every time. Some instructions would be very helpful. If some are willing to spend much time on documenting for Windows, why not spend a little effort and tailor it for Linux too?

Well, I got the patch notification on the Slackware mailing list last night and downloaded the package. Now all I have to do is find time to install it when I get home tonight. So at least one distribution already has Firefox 2.0.0.5. Of course, being a newbie, he would probably find other things not to like about Slackware.
> When a security update becomes available, it is not unreasonable to want it, even if your distro lags.

How many of those security updates affect Linux? Hmm, time for some research....
OK, the security updates for Firefox 2.0.0.5 are as follows:

MFSA 2007-25 XPCNativeWrapper pollution MFSA 2007-24 Unauthorized access to wyciwyg:// documents MFSA 2007-23 Remote code execution by launching Firefox from Internet Explorer MFSA 2007-22 File type confusion due to %00 in name MFSA 2007-21 Privilege escalation using an event handler attached to an element not in the document MFSA 2007-20 Frame spoofing while window is loading MFSA 2007-19 XSS using addEventListener and setTimeout MFSA 2007-18 Crashes with evidence of memory corruption

Of these, three are marked as critical: 18, 21, and 23. Of those, 23 is mostly a Windows specific problem, though I guess it's possible that running IE under Wine could duplicate the problem. I may be being dense, but I doubt "chrome privileges" means anything under Linux, so I suspect 21 is also a Windows only problem. That leaves 18, which probably affects both systems.
> It seems Mozilla, and other open source outfits like > OpenOffice.org, that release applications for > Windows and Linux are catering more to Windows > users than Linux user if at all.

There is a reason for that (as others mentioned): for Linux, it's the distribution's job to package easy updates etc. For Windows, that obviously doesn't work for 'enemy packages'. And MS doesn't package other vendors' software anyway. And Windows doesn't have (or had when I last used it) anything resembling a clean and consistent package management system.

Not that it would be a bad idea for Mozilla to provide packages at least for the most popular distro's. For proprietary apps that's common and inevitable. But again, distro packagers have the overview and are best positioned to do this consistently for free aps.
Quoting:I may be being dense, but I doubt "chrome privileges" means anything under Linux


Actually ,the XUL-Runner powered GUI of all Mozilla applications is referred to as "chrome".
> Actually ,the XUL-Runner powered GUI of all Mozilla applications is referred to as "chrome".

Yes, but I doubt it runs with any special privileges under Linux. It probably has system rights under Windows.

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