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What's up at the OpenDocument Foundation?

Posted by Scott_Ruecker on · 36 comments
Linux.com; By Joe Barr 		Mail this story
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The OpenDocument Foundation, founded five years ago by Gary Edwards, Sam Hiser, and Paul "Buck" Martin (marbux) with the express purpose of representing the OpenDocument format in the "open standards process," has reversed course. It now supports the W3C's Compound Document Format instead of its namesake ODF. Yet why this change of course has occurred is something of a mystery.

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Comments (36)

Why no coverage from Groklaw, Updegrove?

14 earlier comments in the full thread.

schestowitz ·
Yes, but that's because Chris (the talk-to-man for CDF) has just extinguished the fire the Foundation had started. :-)
hkwint ·
After all, it seems our 'favourite ODF writers' were a bit slow to respond, probably because they needed time to come up with an answer and didn't want to bring more storm to the front; one would believe.
Abe ·
Quoting:Groklaw talks about it too now


Being a site where many people look for facts, they are way too late.

The least they could have done early on is to let people know who Open Document FOUNDATION is , how small and insignificant they are and not to be taken seriously. Instead, they chose not to talk about it until others did the clarification for them. Initially, I myself thought they were the people who were involved in establishing the Open Document Format specification.

I don't know what was the reason, but I believe rdtennent, the first poster in this thread, is right on by pointing out "Marbux is a frequent contributor there" as a reason.

Very disappointed with Groklaw.

Sander_Marechal ·
Quoting:I don't know what was the reason, but I believe rdtennent, the first poster in this thread, is right on by pointing out "Marbux is a frequent contributor there" as a reason.


Could be. But the fact that this story is a bit outside Groklaw's main subject (litigation) and that PJ has probably been very busy because the SCO litigation is busy, probably also plays some role. It's a shame that they didn't cover this sooner, but I wouldn't do as far as to call it "very disappointing".

Same for Andy. He's usually a bit late because he tries to go to the source, verify and get unique material (which he certainly did in this case).
Abe ·
Quoting:Same for Andy ...
I know that and that is why I didn't mention him.

Quoting:But the fact that this story is a bit outside Groklaw's main subject (litigation) and that PJ has probably been very busy because the SCO litigation is busy


Do you really believe that Sander? I certainly don't.

This thing has been on the net for couple weeks already, PJ couldn't be busy for this long without writing something about such an important issue, unless she was on vacation or sick, nothing was mentioned about her being away. Even if she was, is she the only writer at Groklaw? couldn't some one else write something?

I am sure you read her little snippet article, she hardly said anything about the subject. She pretty much repeated what Andy reported. Kind of strange for PJ not to make an opinion other than just repeating the Microsoft stuff that we already know.

It seems to me that PJ didn't want to make an opinion on this matter for some reason.

schestowitz ·
Abe,

I sent Rob's item for inclusion in News Picks and PJ /did/ mention (to use your own word) "how small and insignificant they are and not to be taken seriously." It was there, just not as another, separate article.

Sander,

Some of these people are like (former?) friends of ours (I'm not directly associated with anyone, but neither is the 'Foundation'). To use an analogy, when an animal gets too hungry (e.g. for funds), it can attack its own kind.

Re: "Do you really believe that Sander? I certainly don't."

Smear campaign and personal attacks are always hard. Can you imagine the backlash you beg for when spilling the beans on people you once knew? You'd rather cite someone else (Rob in this case) than take the witch hat.
tuxchick ·
Will you get a grip? "Marbux is a frequent contributor there" is the stupidest Groklaw conspiracy theory of all time. Just because you think a story is drop-dead important doesn't mean PJ and Andy and everyone else in your vast web of conspiracy do as well, or that they have the resources to investigate every last thing. Joe Barr and Andy Updegrove have set the record straight- what more you want? Yeah, it took an eternity. Oh wait, no, it took two weeks.
dinotrac ·
>just because you think a story is drop-dead important doesn't mean PJ and Andy and everyone else in your vast web of conspiracy do as well

You tell 'em, TC.
gus3 ·
TC, I have a boss at work that your rant reminds me of.

She's a good boss. ;-)
dinotrac ·
>I blame society.

Oh no -- not the great all-wing conspiracy?
schestowitz ·
Society? Where is that? I'm still trying to find it.
hkwint ·
Quoting:Joe Barr and Andy Updegrove have set the record straight- what more you want? Yeah, it took an eternity. Oh wait, no, it took two weeks.


Still was a small problem, on November 1st. Some OOXML-advocates used the supposed 'schism' to make it look like ODF was losing important members and this was all a big problem, also reasoning this fight was between Sun and IBM (??? ahem). Of course they would like to make this look like this means ODF is coming down, and ODF is worse than OOXML, since ODF is unable to fulfill the customers wishes.

Normally, I assign myself the job to try to stop this kind disinformation; but therefore I need resources. And when there is controversy around ODF, what would be my first place to look? Normally, I would look on LXer, for example to see if Andy Updegrove said anything about it, but he didn't, and not much other news that explained what was going on either. Yes, some articles mentioned it, but they all told the same without explaining who-what-where-why. Then I probably went to Rob Weir's page (cannot remember), nothing either. I was a bit disappointed, were they silent because they couldn't handle this issue or so?

This meant I had to use LXer's 'search' function and Google to find out what was going on, and a while later, I knew what this was all about anyway. I would have liked a quicker response, but certainly my 'favourite' ODF writers wanted to write a good instead of a quick one. That's okay, but I had to find some other resources, which took a little of getting used to.
Read the whole comment
Abe ·
Quoting:Will you get a grip? "Marbux is a frequent contributor there" is the stupidest Groklaw conspiracy theory of all time.
Get a grip yourself TC, I was not accusing Groklaw of conspiracy, I was accusing them with some kind of nepotism, there is a difference.

Quoting:Yeah, it took an eternity. Oh wait, no, it took two weeks.
No you wait, I am not waiting for two weeks since two weeks on the Internet are eternity.

I don't waste my time searching on the Internet reading all kind of junk, Groklaw and Andy's Blog happen to be couple of the very few sites that I rely on and trust to get objective and intelligent analysis. Waiting that long failed and disappointed me.

Groklaw should have said something very quickly to prevent OpenDocument FOUNDATION and MS of having a field day for couple weeks.

This foundation did the unimaginable. Being considered an advocate of ODF, their selfishness lead them to betray F/OSS. That is something that can't be taken lightly especially when it is coming from some org. that was considered one the advocated of ODF.

garyedwards ·
In an effort to set the facts straight, the Universal Interoperability Council has published a response to the confusing noise surrounding the OpenDocument Foundation: Putting Andy Updegrove to Bed (without his supper)

Foundation members also responded extensively to David Berlind's discussion concerning IBM's work with CDF, the W3C's support for the Foundation's CDF work, and the strawman Andy Updegrove erected.

These discussions can be reviewed at: Did the W3C acknowledge CDF’s potential as an office format (vs ODF) in newly public e-mail?

The Foundation's disclosure of the W3C conversations is at: Play the tape!!! The W3C eMails to the Foundation tell a different story

A further discussion of interest can be found at moohpoint, where we take up the argument directly with Rob Weir in the comments section: Hypocrisy 101

Hope this helps, ~ge~
tuxchick ·
What part of "CDF is not a document format" don't you understand? I quote from the mothership itself:

Quoting: A Compound Document is the W3C term for a document that combines multiple formats, such as XHTML, SVG, SMIL and XForms. The W3C Compound Document Formats (CDF) Working Group will specify the behaviour of some format combinations, addressing the needs for an extensible and interoperable Web.
http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/

Why are you still flogging this subject, anyway? You lads folded up your tent and went home months ago.
dinotrac ·
TC -

You are SOOOO wrong.

CDF is much simpler than that. It is a fundamental rule of parenting:

I CDF and you are grounded for life.
tuxchick ·
Ow. Ow. Owwwwwwww.
dinotrac ·
I'm sorry. That was cruel.

Repeated Scenario of FUD, Patent Deals................

vainrveenr ·
We've seen similar patterns over the past year just like the OpenDocument Foundation's. First the FUDslinging directly or indirectly through MS http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/10/cracks-in-foundation.htm...

Then a targeted institution or company in the FOSS world pulls a behind-the-scenes deal with MS -- patent deals for commercial companies; incorporating "interoperability suggestions" from MS into CDF for the OpenDocument Foundation. See http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2211700,00.asp http://hackfud.net/2007/11/06/now-its-open-document-formats-...

Next comes a Linspire's Kevin Carmony or an ODFoundation's SamHiser/marbux getting super-defensive and bringin' up the old weather-beaten "those FOSS people are such fanbois/fanatics", while at the same gettin' real cozy with the Redmond folks. Sections taken directly from the ODFoundation, http://www.opendocumentfoundation.us/
Quoting: Game Over for OpenDocument? ACME 376 The da Vinci Conversion Process ODF iX, a year of failure Universal Interoperability Resources


Finally (others will no doubt predict this best), the targeted institution becomes part of MS, becomes just another MS-supporting shill...... .or otherwise fades into irrelevance after having trampled upon the support and good-will of the FOSS community it initially contributed to.

yada, yada, yada, as the popular song goes "another one bites the dust"
tuxchick ·
I was all confused, but not any more; the Open Document Foundation is maybe three people, the foundation itself doesn't seem to do anything except write stuff, and the foundation is now belly-up. Try clicking on any of the internal pages.

Joe Barr has a nice writeup: http://www.linux.com/feature/121034 "But he says that the foundation's days are numbered. "The Foundation has no remaining purpose, since we have ended our involvement in ODF. The entity will be wound down. Our development efforts will continue in some constructive form."

Sooo...what's all the fuss?

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