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Google funds Wine to improve Photoshop use
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Comments (35)
15 earlier comments in the full thread.
I'd rather they put that money into improving GIMP, make it a strong and very visible competitor to Photoshop. I use GIMP at work, and my boss seems to be relying on me to do our image eiditing with it, instead of the proprietary image manipulation software he's bought.... maybe none of it runs on vista, which he's using.
@tracyanne:
Ultimately that's a good option, and that's one of the true strengths of OSS - no one is restricting the efforts of anyone else to develop or fund the product that scratches their particular itch. Truth is, I'd love to see someone make the GIMP's interface a little more friendly, but I wouldn't try to force Google to "see the light" when the work they're doing motivates them, and ultimately helps us.
@dino: You're right, but the desktop, education, and corporate market are all tied together. This mirrors the reasoning of a discussion we had the other day on why Apple has been so successful - cachet. If running Adobe, or Microsoft software written for Windows can hijack some of that cachet, and bring users to Linux, that's a good thing. Personally, it's some older games I'm really fond of that makes WINE a worthwhile project.
@dino: You're right, but the desktop, education, and corporate market are all tied together. This mirrors the reasoning of a discussion we had the other day on why Apple has been so successful - cachet. If running Adobe, or Microsoft software written for Windows can hijack some of that cachet, and bring users to Linux, that's a good thing. Personally, it's some older games I'm really fond of that makes WINE a worthwhile project.
In Windows, everything I need to do in Photoshop I can do better and faster in Irfanview. It's a good thing, too, because I don't have Photoshop installed. At my shop here, they'll put Photoshop Elements on the box if you ask. I tried it on somebody else's box, and it's still too damn slow.
I don't prep images for CMYK printing, something even the GIMP doesn't do, and for Web images, I much prefer smaller apps like Irfanview.
In Linux and BSD, I like MtPaint for basic image editing. It's super quick and does most of what I need.
And tuxchick has been helpful in steering me toward digiKam, which allows the preservation and editing of the embedded caption information in JPEGs that I need for my work. ... Now all I have to do is give digiKam another chance.
But for getting my work done in Windows, Irfanview blows Photoshop out of the water. It's "freeware," and not FOSS, and that's not something I'm comfortable with, but the app is so damn good that I'm looking the other way when it comes to the license.
I'd love for the GIMP to address the embedded caption situation. Not so ironically, it's a Photoshop-created issue, because most photographers use Photoshop to embed this caption information in their JPEGs. Unfortunately (and very ironically) the GIMP (and MtPaint and Krita ...) not only don't allow this information to be edited, they also ERASE the information when you save an image.
I've been on this tear before ... and now I'm done.
And on the other subject, letting people rot in jail isn't my idea of good corporate policy, either.
I don't prep images for CMYK printing, something even the GIMP doesn't do, and for Web images, I much prefer smaller apps like Irfanview.
In Linux and BSD, I like MtPaint for basic image editing. It's super quick and does most of what I need.
And tuxchick has been helpful in steering me toward digiKam, which allows the preservation and editing of the embedded caption information in JPEGs that I need for my work. ... Now all I have to do is give digiKam another chance.
But for getting my work done in Windows, Irfanview blows Photoshop out of the water. It's "freeware," and not FOSS, and that's not something I'm comfortable with, but the app is so damn good that I'm looking the other way when it comes to the license.
I'd love for the GIMP to address the embedded caption situation. Not so ironically, it's a Photoshop-created issue, because most photographers use Photoshop to embed this caption information in their JPEGs. Unfortunately (and very ironically) the GIMP (and MtPaint and Krita ...) not only don't allow this information to be edited, they also ERASE the information when you save an image.
I've been on this tear before ... and now I'm done.
And on the other subject, letting people rot in jail isn't my idea of good corporate policy, either.
Dumper, what a champion exercise in mealy-mouthing. Congratulations, I award you the trophy. The fact is that Adobe is directly responsible for the jailing of Mr. Sklyarov. It was an outrageous act, and it's still outrageous, and your claim of a "more effective way" of dealing with this sort of thing seems to amount to "bend over and take it". Forgive and forget. Oh that silly old thing, that was ages ago. Etc.
I think outrageous deeds should be met with outrage. FOSS does not need Adobe, nor any company that thinks criminalizing everything they don't like is acceptable, and certainly not at the price of overlooking heinous deeds. I don't think much of people who value shiny toys above all else, or who think we need to placate and suck up to tyrants and bullies. I suppose that's too cage-rattley for you; Dino phrased it in a way more suited to tender sensibilities.
I didn't say or guess anything about bloatware, and I highly doubt that you are clairvoyant- you shouldn't try to predict how I will behave in the future.
I think outrageous deeds should be met with outrage. FOSS does not need Adobe, nor any company that thinks criminalizing everything they don't like is acceptable, and certainly not at the price of overlooking heinous deeds. I don't think much of people who value shiny toys above all else, or who think we need to placate and suck up to tyrants and bullies. I suppose that's too cage-rattley for you; Dino phrased it in a way more suited to tender sensibilities.
I didn't say or guess anything about bloatware, and I highly doubt that you are clairvoyant- you shouldn't try to predict how I will behave in the future.
Quoting:needing to teach courses in such proprietary apps
I question that precept outright. Schools should be teaching principles, not vendor specific proprietary technologies. FOSS is perfect for that, both intellectually and economically.
Also, I didn't mean to marginalize the efforts, I just have my own opinion based on my own needs and what I've seen other users do. I really see no reason to switch an OS unless it isn't working for you. Most of us here prefer Linux and don't particularly like Windows, but there is a lot of creative and important stuff done reliably on Windows every day. Why reinvent the wheel?
@Tuxchick:
Quoted:
"My guess is that Adobe products will choke a Linux system just as bad as they do their native Windows. Adobe redefines bloatware"
Funny, that sounds like a _guess_ about _bloatware_ to me. :)
Quoted: "I don't think much of people who value shiny toys above all else . . ."
What we were talking about was the perceived value of a product, and how that plays in the mass consumer market. Aside from being taken completely out of context (intentionally, I believe), your statement helps explain your general disdain for anyone who isn't afraid to point out your extremist bent.
I agree with you: Adobe is bad, Microsoft is bad. Nothing tender about my sensibilities, I simply choose to pursue a more effective solution than pitchforks and torches. What do you want, exactly?
Take a deep breath tuxchick, in spite of your demonstrated inability to argue cohesively, I think things will work out fine for all of us. But you'd better be careful though, Adobe might come put you in jail.
Adobe's behavior was criminal and predatory in nature, but it was completely legal. Don't like it? Work to get this abhorrent law (the DMCA) changed or abolished. Don't like Adobe? Do as SR has done above, and contribute to a productive solution.
Sadly, I don't need to predict how you'll behave in the future, you've demonstrated that well enough on your own. But I do still appreciate your input, when you're not calling me names. :)
@Steven_R: You should write this up somewhere. I don't do any professional photo or imaging work, but it's these little bits of info that save new or inexperienced community members a lot of time and trouble. Thank you for the info.
Funny, that sounds like a _guess_ about _bloatware_ to me. :)
Quoted: "I don't think much of people who value shiny toys above all else . . ."
What we were talking about was the perceived value of a product, and how that plays in the mass consumer market. Aside from being taken completely out of context (intentionally, I believe), your statement helps explain your general disdain for anyone who isn't afraid to point out your extremist bent.
I agree with you: Adobe is bad, Microsoft is bad. Nothing tender about my sensibilities, I simply choose to pursue a more effective solution than pitchforks and torches. What do you want, exactly?
Take a deep breath tuxchick, in spite of your demonstrated inability to argue cohesively, I think things will work out fine for all of us. But you'd better be careful though, Adobe might come put you in jail.
Adobe's behavior was criminal and predatory in nature, but it was completely legal. Don't like it? Work to get this abhorrent law (the DMCA) changed or abolished. Don't like Adobe? Do as SR has done above, and contribute to a productive solution.
Sadly, I don't need to predict how you'll behave in the future, you've demonstrated that well enough on your own. But I do still appreciate your input, when you're not calling me names. :)
@Steven_R: You should write this up somewhere. I don't do any professional photo or imaging work, but it's these little bits of info that save new or inexperienced community members a lot of time and trouble. Thank you for the info.
@tuxtom:
quote:
"question that precept outright. Schools should be teaching principles, not vendor specific proprietary technologies."
amen, brother. I agree with that 100%. The big question is, have you ever tried teaching a new concept like that to a higher-ed teacher? I can tell you first hand, it's unbelievably difficult. The more educated these "professionals" are, the less teachable they seem to become.
Additionally, the industry is geared around new versions of program_x every few years. I'm not just talking about the software industry, book publishers make a living on the latest version of program_x, and work actively to make sure nothing so radical and useful as teaching principles will ever happen.
The shifts we're talking about take time, and programs like WINE are a great transitional tool. Yes, windows programs run best on windows. But for those concerned with cost, stability, security, or the most important question: "who owns your data?", tools like WINE help with the transition to a more free world.
amen, brother. I agree with that 100%. The big question is, have you ever tried teaching a new concept like that to a higher-ed teacher? I can tell you first hand, it's unbelievably difficult. The more educated these "professionals" are, the less teachable they seem to become.
Additionally, the industry is geared around new versions of program_x every few years. I'm not just talking about the software industry, book publishers make a living on the latest version of program_x, and work actively to make sure nothing so radical and useful as teaching principles will ever happen.
The shifts we're talking about take time, and programs like WINE are a great transitional tool. Yes, windows programs run best on windows. But for those concerned with cost, stability, security, or the most important question: "who owns your data?", tools like WINE help with the transition to a more free world.
@dumper: No biggie, but you have been mixing up my quotes with tuxchick's. I don't mind...I'd really like to meet her some day. We blend. 8^)
Yes! My reference was meant to refer more to K-12 education.
I have taken some adult ASP.NET courses to enhance my knowledge and skills from an instructor who is published and whose specialty is ASP.NET/Dreamweaver (no names but he is prominent on Amazon). I was dismayed that he spent an inordinate amount of time slamming PHP and even Java (with racial overtones). He went on to scoff and mock PhpMyAdmin, which I consider to be a pretty darn good GUI tool for what it is. The sad thing is that he had no experience whatsoever in the technologies he was mocking...he "did a little Cold Fusion programming a several years ago". The programming was being taught in C#, which I was very comfortable with from my experienced Java background and self-study. When I politely brought to his attention a glaring error in his instruction that would have confused students (many inexperienced) down the road he said "Do you want to come up here and teach the class?". Perfect example of how "Computer Science" is being taught these days....with ego and mindless product loyalty (granted it was a CC night course, but still...). I'll tell you, it's pathetic out there.
My best CS instructor was a little old Hungarian lady with a PhD in Linguistics who taught me how to think relationally (RDBMS & SQL). That is one thing that really stuck with me. It was DB2, which I've never used since, but she taught me how to THINK, not how to do. We need more of that in this world.
Quoting:The more educated these "professionals" are, the less teachable they seem to become.
Yes! My reference was meant to refer more to K-12 education.
I have taken some adult ASP.NET courses to enhance my knowledge and skills from an instructor who is published and whose specialty is ASP.NET/Dreamweaver (no names but he is prominent on Amazon). I was dismayed that he spent an inordinate amount of time slamming PHP and even Java (with racial overtones). He went on to scoff and mock PhpMyAdmin, which I consider to be a pretty darn good GUI tool for what it is. The sad thing is that he had no experience whatsoever in the technologies he was mocking...he "did a little Cold Fusion programming a several years ago". The programming was being taught in C#, which I was very comfortable with from my experienced Java background and self-study. When I politely brought to his attention a glaring error in his instruction that would have confused students (many inexperienced) down the road he said "Do you want to come up here and teach the class?". Perfect example of how "Computer Science" is being taught these days....with ego and mindless product loyalty (granted it was a CC night course, but still...). I'll tell you, it's pathetic out there.
My best CS instructor was a little old Hungarian lady with a PhD in Linguistics who taught me how to think relationally (RDBMS & SQL). That is one thing that really stuck with me. It was DB2, which I've never used since, but she taught me how to THINK, not how to do. We need more of that in this world.
@tuxtom and tuxchick:
"DOH!" says the little Homer in the back of my head that can't seem to keep up today. My apologies to you both, I'll try to be more diligent in keeping my tux'es straight. Sorry for the misquote (twice).
It takes me a little while sometimes, but I'll get there eventually. . . .
"DOH!" says the little Homer in the back of my head that can't seem to keep up today. My apologies to you both, I'll try to be more diligent in keeping my tux'es straight. Sorry for the misquote (twice).
It takes me a little while sometimes, but I'll get there eventually. . . .
Don't dump so hard on yourself.
@tuxtom:
To be fair, if I'm going to take tuxchick or you to task for your opinion, the very least I can do is exercise due diligence. I failed to do so twice, and you both tried to correct me. I do genuinely appreciate that effort from both of you.
You know, it is just a message forum, no apology necessary with me. With my karma around here I probably deserve it anyway. I tend to push the limits at times and inject too much brash commentary and/or humor into serious discussions...which probably won't change but I'm adult enough to admit it.
However, if you were my boss and fired me then tried to apologize, I would accept nothing less than a 20% raise and an extra two weeks paid vacation this quarter.
Thanks for your follow-up.
However, if you were my boss and fired me then tried to apologize, I would accept nothing less than a 20% raise and an extra two weeks paid vacation this quarter.
Thanks for your follow-up.
I think the question was 'Should we be glad Google puts money in WINE to run Photoshop'?
First of all, yes, I'm glad Google puts money in WINE. I'm no big fan of Google, but I really like their Summer of Code efforts, and I appreciate they refused to hand personal info to the US government, though they did so because of economical reasons, not ethical ones. However, I think the choice of the 'project' they spend the money on may not be lucky. How many people actually need professional - and not occasional - photo editing? How many people do print large posters using CMYK? How many people cannot do their work using GIMPshop because they miss Photoshop features in GIMPshop?
I agree with TracyAnne it would have be a better idea to donate the money to improve GIMP(shop), or look for a Windows-app which currently does not work very well with WINE, but is needed (needed, not used!) by a greater share of the people than Photoshop.
Also, for photo-editing, Linux does have quite good free software, but for mechanical drawing / 3D CAD, it doesn't. Probably the need for free mechanical drawing and 3D CAD software is just as big as the tiny share of the people needing professional photo-editing. GIMP(shop) is quite a good free software alternative to Photoshop, but on the other hand, 3D-CAD software like Pro/E / AD Inventor / SolidWorks doesn't have a good free software alternative. Worse, the first is not affordable and the second and third don't run under WINE at all. So there are areas where the same money would have been spend in a better way in my opinion, or I'm underestimating the number of people that really _need_ Photoshop. More probable, those Adobe software users - just like Apple software users - just have a loud voice.
First of all, yes, I'm glad Google puts money in WINE. I'm no big fan of Google, but I really like their Summer of Code efforts, and I appreciate they refused to hand personal info to the US government, though they did so because of economical reasons, not ethical ones. However, I think the choice of the 'project' they spend the money on may not be lucky. How many people actually need professional - and not occasional - photo editing? How many people do print large posters using CMYK? How many people cannot do their work using GIMPshop because they miss Photoshop features in GIMPshop?
I agree with TracyAnne it would have be a better idea to donate the money to improve GIMP(shop), or look for a Windows-app which currently does not work very well with WINE, but is needed (needed, not used!) by a greater share of the people than Photoshop.
Also, for photo-editing, Linux does have quite good free software, but for mechanical drawing / 3D CAD, it doesn't. Probably the need for free mechanical drawing and 3D CAD software is just as big as the tiny share of the people needing professional photo-editing. GIMP(shop) is quite a good free software alternative to Photoshop, but on the other hand, 3D-CAD software like Pro/E / AD Inventor / SolidWorks doesn't have a good free software alternative. Worse, the first is not affordable and the second and third don't run under WINE at all. So there are areas where the same money would have been spend in a better way in my opinion, or I'm underestimating the number of people that really _need_ Photoshop. More probable, those Adobe software users - just like Apple software users - just have a loud voice.
Quoting:...look for a Windows-app which currently does not work very well with WINE, but is needed (needed, not used!) by a greater share of the people than Photoshop.
Quickbooks comes to mind. The FOSS alternatives here are scarce and immature for commercial use.
Google can spend their money wherever they want- but wouldn't it be cool if they put it into some genuine native FOSS applications like Krita, the Gimp, and such? Instead of propping up an overpriced, closed, proprietary product put out by a company that refuses to support FOSS, and throws people into jail? And barely competent, to boot- where's their 64-bit Flash? Sheesh, give it to some teenage Linux hacker. We'll have it in a weekend.
dumper, there is no excuse on earth for what Adobe did. You don't appear to be informed on the facts of the case- Sklyarov and Elcomsoft were eventually cleared on all charges. So a man had his fundamental due process rights trampled and lost five months of his life for nothing- that's more time than real criminals serve. What did Sklyarov do? What damage did he do to Adobe? I'll leave you to do your own Googling. (Hint: the very same thing we're doing here, and zero.) You can argue it was legal until you keel over- that's debatable, given how our Constitutional rights have been shat upon the past 7 years, and it doesn't matter anyway. It's not a justification. It's not even a good excuse. Big businesses are not exempt from responsible or moral behavior, and going off on tangents about needing to overhaul the DMCA has nothing to do with this. Adobe did what they did and should have been held accountable. Unfortunately they weren't. If it had been a US citizen, I daresay Adobe would have been sued and gotten a lot more unfavorable publicity. But hey, it was just some ole Russian dood, so it's OK.
You think being outraged at Adobe's taking away a man's liberty for nothing is extremist- that's so...I don't know what to call it. You'd rather crab at me for how I feel about it. That's so wrong I am actually speechless.
dumper, there is no excuse on earth for what Adobe did. You don't appear to be informed on the facts of the case- Sklyarov and Elcomsoft were eventually cleared on all charges. So a man had his fundamental due process rights trampled and lost five months of his life for nothing- that's more time than real criminals serve. What did Sklyarov do? What damage did he do to Adobe? I'll leave you to do your own Googling. (Hint: the very same thing we're doing here, and zero.) You can argue it was legal until you keel over- that's debatable, given how our Constitutional rights have been shat upon the past 7 years, and it doesn't matter anyway. It's not a justification. It's not even a good excuse. Big businesses are not exempt from responsible or moral behavior, and going off on tangents about needing to overhaul the DMCA has nothing to do with this. Adobe did what they did and should have been held accountable. Unfortunately they weren't. If it had been a US citizen, I daresay Adobe would have been sued and gotten a lot more unfavorable publicity. But hey, it was just some ole Russian dood, so it's OK.
You think being outraged at Adobe's taking away a man's liberty for nothing is extremist- that's so...I don't know what to call it. You'd rather crab at me for how I feel about it. That's so wrong I am actually speechless.
The thing I can't figure out is WHY we don't have more killer OSS apps, that obviate the need of Quickbooks or Photoshop (or anything else) running under WINE. Steven_R and hkwint both mentioned several options - some have this feature, others have that - but none are the Photoshop killer they could be. It's OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE, so why aren't these projects sharing code, implementing the features they each lack, and leveraging the power at their fingertips? While extra money always helps, the code is already there, we just need the cooperation.
Yes, I realize that's a simplistic view, but not overly. Helios has mentioned in the past that there is no "community", and I tend to agree. There are 10,000 little communities, all scratching their own itch. Until we overcome this, and utilize the power of open code and development, we're likely to continue playing catch-up in several key areas.
@tuxchick: (brief pause to make sure that I'm responding to the right person) I keep throwin' 'em, and you keep missin' 'em.
I agree: Adobe is bad. What they did is wrong. It shouldn't be ignored. They should be punished (I don't believe there's a legal case, but civil action may be feasible) - IANAL/YMMV. Everyone - businesses, individuals, and martians - should behave in a responsible and moral manner. I understand the facts of the case clearly, Sklyarov was railroaded.
I disagree: The fact that he's not from the US is a red herring, one more tactic to generate an emotional response. The DMCA is bad, it has something to do with this, and it should be changed or abolished. Your particular political bent doesn't have much bearing on the issue.
I'm not sure how to be more clear, but I realize you're a smart person, so I'm left to believe you keep missin' 'em on purpose, to justify your righteous indignation. I'm not crabbing at you for HOW you feel about it. I'm concerned that ALL YOU SEEM TO BE DOING HERE is "feeling" about it - there's no clear thought involved.
The question remains: what do you want? It's obvious your pitchforks and torches approach isn't going to bring about any change, it simply engenders tension on every side of the issue, and hampers progress and change. Want to make a difference? Code a killer app, or organize people who can. Contribute to these efforts personally, or raise funds in an organized way to donate to the cause. Educate users on the unethical business practices of Adobe, Microsoft, the BSA, etc. Provide those users with functional, attractive, simple alternatives. You already know all of this, so what's the problem?
In short, I'm crabbing at you, because your crabbing at them is completely ineffectual, and the whole "Adobe sucks" (or "Microsoft sucks", etc.) approach ultimately harms the community (such as it is). I don't think your outrage is extreme, I think how you've chosen to channel it here is extreme - ly useless and harmful.
Speechless? Would that it were so. :)
Yes, I realize that's a simplistic view, but not overly. Helios has mentioned in the past that there is no "community", and I tend to agree. There are 10,000 little communities, all scratching their own itch. Until we overcome this, and utilize the power of open code and development, we're likely to continue playing catch-up in several key areas.
@tuxchick: (brief pause to make sure that I'm responding to the right person) I keep throwin' 'em, and you keep missin' 'em.
I agree: Adobe is bad. What they did is wrong. It shouldn't be ignored. They should be punished (I don't believe there's a legal case, but civil action may be feasible) - IANAL/YMMV. Everyone - businesses, individuals, and martians - should behave in a responsible and moral manner. I understand the facts of the case clearly, Sklyarov was railroaded.
I disagree: The fact that he's not from the US is a red herring, one more tactic to generate an emotional response. The DMCA is bad, it has something to do with this, and it should be changed or abolished. Your particular political bent doesn't have much bearing on the issue.
I'm not sure how to be more clear, but I realize you're a smart person, so I'm left to believe you keep missin' 'em on purpose, to justify your righteous indignation. I'm not crabbing at you for HOW you feel about it. I'm concerned that ALL YOU SEEM TO BE DOING HERE is "feeling" about it - there's no clear thought involved.
The question remains: what do you want? It's obvious your pitchforks and torches approach isn't going to bring about any change, it simply engenders tension on every side of the issue, and hampers progress and change. Want to make a difference? Code a killer app, or organize people who can. Contribute to these efforts personally, or raise funds in an organized way to donate to the cause. Educate users on the unethical business practices of Adobe, Microsoft, the BSA, etc. Provide those users with functional, attractive, simple alternatives. You already know all of this, so what's the problem?
In short, I'm crabbing at you, because your crabbing at them is completely ineffectual, and the whole "Adobe sucks" (or "Microsoft sucks", etc.) approach ultimately harms the community (such as it is). I don't think your outrage is extreme, I think how you've chosen to channel it here is extreme - ly useless and harmful.
Speechless? Would that it were so. :)
Quoting:Quickbooks comes to mind. The FOSS alternatives here are scarce and immature for commercial use.
There's a new FOSS project that's looking very good: EekBook. It's targeted at small to medium sized businesses and supports european-style book keeping (dual stream, the "Bakker" system), something that e.g. GnuCash can't do. The website is only in Dutch but does state that the software itself is multi-lingual. It's a server application with a CLI interface and a full API. The GUI is nearly complete.
Site (Dutch): http://www.eekboek.nl/ Google translation of the features page: [url=http://www.google.com/translate?u=http://www.eekboek.nl/features.html&langpair=nl|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8]http://www.google.com/translate?u=http://www.eekboek.nl/feat...[/url] Screenshots: http://www.eekboek.nl/scrshots/index.html Sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=154512
From http://www.elcomsoft.com/aebpr.html
Looking back with 20/20, I wish that we could have had better communication with ElcomSoft, Dmitry Sklyarov and the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) before the whole thing went public. I'm sorry that we weren't able to do that, because I think we could have resolved a lot of the issues.
Bruce Chizen, CEO of Adobe Systems Inc. for CNET
They were stupid and they know it. That was six or so years ago before XPS and Silverlight. Now there is PDF as ISO 32000 and Linux versions of Flash and Adobe Reader. Adobe is transitioning just like IBM did after losing $5B. Normal market forces do work but they're not speedy.
My normal OS user transition process: 1. Convert them to cross-platform F/OSS app on their proprietary OS. 2. Move them to Linux and use Wine or virtual machines for legacy apps 3. Get rid of the legacy apps.
Quality takes time and F/OSS apps with less development resources will take a while to catch up to proprietary ones. If they had all the features of their competitors they would be bloated too. Modularity is one solution - just look at Firefox vs. Mozilla.
What would you think if some company offered commercial closed-source Linux-compatible Gimp plugins? Or effects generators for some of the audio synthesizers? Desktop themes? Screensavers? Children's educational programs? Would you campaign against their products being offered in optional repositories for any distro? That doesn't happen in the Mac or Windows world. It does happen in Linux, especially with commercial game developers. Lots of childish flaming on The Linux Game Tome.
Free-as-in-beer vs. Free-as-in-freedom vs. Free-to-install-whatever-the-hell-I-want-while-making-risk/cost/benefit-tradeoff-decisions
Buying proprietary software and ignoring the EULA seems a lot easer. Freedom is just too damn complicated :P
Looking back with 20/20, I wish that we could have had better communication with ElcomSoft, Dmitry Sklyarov and the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) before the whole thing went public. I'm sorry that we weren't able to do that, because I think we could have resolved a lot of the issues.
Bruce Chizen, CEO of Adobe Systems Inc. for CNET
They were stupid and they know it. That was six or so years ago before XPS and Silverlight. Now there is PDF as ISO 32000 and Linux versions of Flash and Adobe Reader. Adobe is transitioning just like IBM did after losing $5B. Normal market forces do work but they're not speedy.
My normal OS user transition process: 1. Convert them to cross-platform F/OSS app on their proprietary OS. 2. Move them to Linux and use Wine or virtual machines for legacy apps 3. Get rid of the legacy apps.
Quality takes time and F/OSS apps with less development resources will take a while to catch up to proprietary ones. If they had all the features of their competitors they would be bloated too. Modularity is one solution - just look at Firefox vs. Mozilla.
What would you think if some company offered commercial closed-source Linux-compatible Gimp plugins? Or effects generators for some of the audio synthesizers? Desktop themes? Screensavers? Children's educational programs? Would you campaign against their products being offered in optional repositories for any distro? That doesn't happen in the Mac or Windows world. It does happen in Linux, especially with commercial game developers. Lots of childish flaming on The Linux Game Tome.
Free-as-in-beer vs. Free-as-in-freedom vs. Free-to-install-whatever-the-hell-I-want-while-making-risk/cost/benefit-tradeoff-decisions
Buying proprietary software and ignoring the EULA seems a lot easer. Freedom is just too damn complicated :P
Quoting:The thing I can't figure out is WHY we don't have more killer OSS apps, that obviate the need of Quickbooks or Photoshop (or anything else) running under WINE.
What's more perplexing is that the companies that develop these products do so for both Windows AND Mac OS X. While I can't speak for Adobe, I know and have met a lot of Intuit employees and have seen their job postings. They have plenty of expertise and resources to get their products ported to Linux.
The critical mass argument is a huge catch 22. No one wants to spend the time developing the app until there are enough users to support it, while there will never be enough users to support it until it is available for the platform. The lack of the app is keeping people from making the switch to a FOSS desktop. Someone...or rather a fictitious someone known as a corporation...needs to stand up and make something happen. When you look at the explosive popularity of Ubuntu, for example, you would think these companies would be fighting each other to get on that desktop first.
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You're both missing the most important boat...
This is not servertown, but desktown. In desktown, there is a certain element of people getting something because they want it, even though something else could do the job just as well. Tomatoes to-mah-toes and all that.