Ubuntu
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| sbergman27 Jul 29, 2005 8:23 AM EDT |
As it happens, I just installed Ubuntu (X86_64) on my Athlon64 system. Here are some random thoughts from a hardcore Centos/Fedora user for anyone who might be interested. The installer does look a bit clunky compared to most installers today, but it did support LVM2 and I was able to install to an existing LVM2 logical volume created in Fedora Core 4. The installer actually reminds me a lot of Redhat's pre-6.0 text based installer, right down to the fact that at the end of the installation process, it failed to install Lilo. (Redhat never could get that part right, which always seemed to be a bit of a glaring flaw in the installation routine!) After I got the bootloader issue resolved by adding Ubuntu to the existing grub configuration, which fortunately it had not destroyed, the installation continued after the first boot. It did all take longer than one would expect from a single CD. But after it was finished, I was using about 1.5GB of the filesystem. They certainly pack a lot on that one CD. No more reboots were required. I ended up on a nice Gnome desktop. The desktop has a polished feel, so far. Desktop sounds are enabled by default, and although I hate desktop sound, I must admit that their sound theme is tasteful and understated. The sounds are very well synchronized, and there are no annoying pops and clicks. Unforunately, after about 5 minutes, firefox threw up an error window about some sort of xml parsing error (as I was viewing the main page at lwn.net), after which all of the pull down menus showed no options. Restarting firefox got them back. I suppose this could be specific to the X86_64 version. But it does not happen in Fedora Core (X86_64) with the same (1.0.6) version of the browser. Going back to the same page "just worked". Evolution is the default mail client. I use imap over a WAN connection and Evolution is no match for Thunderbird on speed. I think that is specific to imap. I'll definitely be installing Thunderbird. After installation, there were 35 updates. This information was kindly provided by a panel applet. I clicked on it and it asked me for a password. It took me a while to realize that all it wanted was my regular user password. As it turns out Ubuntu ships with the root account disabled. Administration is all performed through sudo, which is a nice balance between asking for the root password for administration like Fedora does, and just running you as root, like Linspire does. I like it. Synaptic looks nice. I'm still looking around, but all in all, this is the first Debian based distro that I've ever really felt this positive about. I've installed debian proper before, but never been impressed enough to keep it. Who knows? By this time next year, I may be extolling the virtues of apt-get to anyone and everyone who cares to listen, and to a fair number of people who don't. (That's a little joke. :-) |
| SFN Jul 29, 2005 8:49 AM EDT |
It's odd, isn't it? They're only a few tweaks away from pure desktop sweetness (assuming you like Gnome). Their next version is due out in October and they've committed to a six-month release cycle (although keeping up with the updates has you regularly upgraded) so, yes, this time next year we could have something truly phenomenal. I tend to push the virtues of the community heavily but it lives up to the hype. Spend some time in the forums (http://ubuntuforums.org/) and check out the Starter Guide (http://ubuntuforums.org/). I think your pleasant surprises will continue. |
| richo123 Jul 29, 2005 9:27 AM EDT |
I switched from Fedora 2 (to Ubuntu) last November and have not been tempted by another distro since. The next release, breezy, promises to be a substantial change. Apart from the switch to gcc4 and the modularization of X there are heaps of new features: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BreezyGoals I just hope that the big changes are properly stabilized since a substantial part of their market is Windows converts. |
| devnet Jul 29, 2005 6:29 PM EDT |
A few tweaks to desktop sweetness? That's a bit of a stretch...it takes MANY tweaks to desktop sweetness for both Ubuntu AND Fedora. They offer appearance and stability...I'll give them that...but most importantly, they don't offer a way for new users (and Windows converts that richo123 is touting) to understand how to get their desktop configured using point and click. I use 'configured' here loosely to include java, flash, media plugins, codecs, and mp3 support. That's why I choose precompiled versions such as PCLinuxOS and SimplyMEPIS or Kanotix to convert new users and new Windows converts...which have all of these things up and ready to rock right away for new users with a great polished appearnace...because Ubuntu and Fedora just won't cut it for them. |
| salparadise Jul 29, 2005 9:12 PM EDT |
"That's why I choose precompiled versions such as PCLinuxOS and SimplyMEPIS or Kanotix to convert new users and new Windows converts...which have all of these things up and ready to rock right away for new users with a great polished appearnace...because Ubuntu and Fedora just won't cut it for them." Whilst I agree with the idea here, is there not an argument for people going through this themselves in order to learn a little? I've never had a WIndows box that has DVD support, MP3 support and the desktop the way I want "out of the box", I've had to go and "tweak it some". Pottering about like this was what got me into computers in the first place. I know some just want to switch on, work, switch off and leave, but some "pottering about" is good for the understanding. Take all of it away and the overall experience is diminished. Most of what is learned, is learned working through problems. Just a thought. |
| sbergman27 Jul 30, 2005 5:54 AM EDT |
I'm sure a new user will have plenty he has to learn without having to muck with codecs, java, flash, and mp3 support. There is soooo much that we just take for granted when using our OS of choice. (On the occasions that I have to use windows, I feel perpetually off-balance.) And why should they have to learn more than absolutely necessary to get started? I enjoy exploring the OS. You enjoy exploring the OS. Most people here do. But that doesn't mean that everyone has to. (And on those occasions that I have to use Windows, exploring is the last thing on my mind.) If Linux is to thrive, we've got to leave the elitism behind. Devnet, are any of the above GNOME based? |
| richo123 Jul 30, 2005 7:57 AM EDT |
devnet, Its not me touting windows converts. I'm not a Ubuntu fanboy and would switch (probably to Debian) if they stopped delivering. The reality is that Ubuntu is extremely popular at the moment and if you go to their fora and participate as I do you will quickly discover gazillions of Windows users quite a few of whom are frustrated. Personally I agree that Fedora for a newbie is a stretch but Ubuntu was a lot easier in my experience to tweak after installation and a lot more just worked out of the box. That (and the hype) explains why there are tons of windows types using it. However Ubuntu is actively contributing to gcc4 and X development in Debian and their devs are very good so that's why I stick with it (plus apt-get). |
| devnet Jul 30, 2005 11:40 AM EDT |
sbergman, PCLoS installs gnome quite nicely via synaptic as does SimplyMEPIS. rich123, I disagree that Ubuntu is much better than Fedora out of the box. Boot speeds and things that 'just work' make Fedora the better choice. However, I do conced that it is very popular and hence has much steam behind it. That doesn't make it the best choice though for a new user. Tell you what...download PCLinuxOS and boot up off it...it's a LiveCD w/ hard drive install..then use it and tell me that a new user won't choose it as compared to Ubuntu. You'll understand what I'm talking about. Sal, I agree...they should put in some time and learn the OS a bit better. But if something is hard right off the bat, they'll be more likely to give it up. If they are impressed right away and fall head over heels for it then they will be more likely to stick with it if a tough spot arises. You point with Windows is moot because windows provides 1 click or 2 click downloads to fix the support problems and has pop ups that tell new users that they need these plugins. It also takes them right to where they need to go to get them. However, Linux isn't at that place yet (I hear KDE 3.5 is working on stuff like this). Until it is...there will be that learning gap that users will either 1) hate or 2) deal with. I'd rather make it so that the first option is eliminated and I think that the way to do that is to make things easier on new users with pre-installed plugins. Just my own opinion. |
| richo123 Jul 30, 2005 6:01 PM EDT |
devnet, I'll have a look. This is a Mandrake derivative isn't it? In the mean time check out some newbie comments on Ubuntu: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=44501 Must be lucky I guess ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) |
| salparadise Jul 30, 2005 11:09 PM EDT |
"You point with Windows is moot because windows provides 1 click or 2 click downloads to fix the support problems " Er... Mostly it tells you to contact your vendor and the "click and add" policy so beloved of Windows users is actually mostly more complicated and needlessly convoluted than the Linux way of doing things. (I click on setup.exe, I click Next or OK, I read a load of jargon which comes down to "you are a worm, you own nothing and you have no rights" I click on Next or OK, I read some more, I click on Next or OK and so on and so on). Or I learn to type rpm -ivh or dpkg -i. |
| devnet Jul 31, 2005 5:34 AM EDT |
Sal, Yes but you must drop to a command line to type that. Or you launch synaptic or kpackage...and then get confused if you are a new user. I work with Techs everyday on software and hardware installation and I can assure you that even Techs with knowledge of PBX systems and wiring diagrams are scared of typing shell commands in Win2k. What would make them feel more comfortable about doing it in Linux? |
| sbergman27 Jul 31, 2005 5:52 AM EDT |
> I work with Techs everyday on software and hardware installation and I can assure you that even Techs with knowledge of PBX systems and wiring diagrams are scared of typing shell commands in Win2k. What would make them feel more comfortable about doing it in Linux? This reminds me of one time when I was extolling the virtues of Linux to a guy who got started with computers after Windows had superceded DOS. He was totally point and click dependent. After listening to me for a while, he said, with a certain amount of trepidation "But, to use Linux you've got to know a lot about DOS and stuff though, right?" It was hard to keep a straight face while answering that one. :-) |
| richo123 Jul 31, 2005 6:42 AM EDT |
cli is like driving a manual after using an autmatic shift for a long time. Its just a matter of feeling comfortable and putting in a bit of effort. I guess the real point is that many people don't see why they should.... |
| sbergman27 Jul 31, 2005 6:48 AM EDT |
> I guess the real point is that many people don't see why they should.... # du -akx / | sort -nr | less That's reason enough all by itself, in my opinion. ;-) -Steve |
| Abe Jul 31, 2005 8:29 AM EDT |
This thread is addressing multiple areas, here is my take on some of them Distros: Mepis & PCLOS & Kanotix are very good distros, easy to install (LiveCD), easy to update (Synaptic) and I consider them to be the best easy to use and maintain that furnish the best Linux desktops for both newbies and experts alike. (K)ubuntu is good and I agree with DevNet that it is popular and has a huge momentum, but it is not yet up to par with the others. Its installation is still length and clunky. It has shortcoming, but it has great potential because of the financial resource available to it and the good collaboration with Debian. I think it will be the best Free/free and commercial distro eventually. I personally like it because of its goal of creating a system for humanity, contrary to Mepis which has a little of commercializing tendency. We will see if it will remain so. If Kubuntu attracts the developers of PCLOS & Kanotix, it would make a killer distro. Currently, all Distros start from others. Contrary to Windows, Linux Distros are going through an evolutionary process which ultimately will produce a knock out system. That is the beauty of FOSS. I personally like Suse. Currently it is the best all around for desktop and server for newbies and experts. It still has weakness in some areas and needs to adopt some of the latest enhancements in the areas of installation (LiveCD) and maintance/upgrades for applications (Synaptic). Suse's media is not streamlined or easy enough because of proprietary and licensing issues, but they could resolve that similar to the way they resolved the issues with MS fonts & Nvida drivers. They made tools for the user to be able to resolve these very easily. GUI/Command line: Both have their place and time. Part of Windows popularity among newbies is due to its GUI interface. Yes, it did make computers easier to maintain and support both desktops and servers, but to the server experts, it is not the best tool. It is lengthy, inefficient and too restrictive. That is why we see MS spending a major effort on developing their new command interface. Today, although not perfect, Linux has both and users have the choice to use which ever they prefer, more comfortable with and best for them. Technically, we have nothing to be concerned about. FOSS has the solid base to build upon. MS at this point is trying to catch up, that is why we see them hiring FOSS talents to keep up with and attack FOSS. IBM, Novel, Red hat and others have been very helpful, but we still need organization like (K)ubuntu to furnish essential resource for the developers. |
| gstrock Jul 31, 2005 10:27 AM EDT |
pure Debian leaves out support for proprietary formats
like mp3 and flash. It's Debian's policy. Ubunutu adheres
to this policy. Some people think this is stupid. They prefer a commercial operating system instead. Why does Linux have to be Windows? Why can't Linux be Linux. Why should Linux care about converting Windows users? Why can't Linux offer a different experience? If you like it fine, if you don't use something else. Why does there have to be a war? - greg strockbine |
| richo123 Jul 31, 2005 10:40 AM EDT |
Steve, That is a useful command! Thanks. |
| devnet Jul 31, 2005 3:58 PM EDT |
gstrock, Linux doesn't have to be Windows for you...it can be what it needs to be for you. But for others that aren't coming to lxer to get their news and who don't do much in IT or anything technical...Linux has to be comparable to Windows to entice them to use it. That's the bottom line and whoever argues with it is ignoring the common user. |
| gstrock Jul 31, 2005 5:32 PM EDT |
I still don't get it. Why does a Windows user
have to be enticed to try anything else? Why
not just leave them alone? No one on this list should be arguing that Linux needs to be more like windows unless you have a company trying to make money off a Linux desktop that you are touting is just like windows. |
| devnet Jul 31, 2005 6:07 PM EDT |
Open Source is open for everyone. To attract users that are accustomed to Windows...a Windows-like distro is needed. More users = more interest. More interest = more companies willing to support Linux. This self perpetuates and feeds itself. It's at that time that we need to become elite and say, "leave those Windows users alone" because at that time, they'll deserve it :) Until then, the slow trickle of users started on their own...it's my belief that we should try to get the trickle to become a stream and eventually a raging river. |
| richo123 Jul 31, 2005 7:07 PM EDT |
Devnet, Following your suggestion I downloaded and "newbie tested" PCLinuxOS on my not particularly unusual PC. Bust I'm afraid: I pressed return at the first prompt as any good newbie would and was confronted with a beautiful swimming penguin (much nicer than the ugly text-based Ubuntu livecd I thought innocently ;-)). The gorgeous progress bar started progressing nicely but after 30 seconds I got the message "unionfs failed to mount" and was dropped to what looked like a busybox prompt which was completely confusing for a newbie. Frustrated (as a newbie would be) I rebooted and this time after hitting return I started hitting F1, F2, F3 and the boot process opened up to a bunch of "confusing" command lines and actually went much further (bit surprising this). I got a lot further through the boot this time but then the livecd hung again with the rather cryptic message backspace is ^? It sat like this with the cd light still on for a good 15 minutes before I gave up in newbie disgust and rebooted into windows (no that was a joke!) BTW the ugly ubuntu livecd booted fine, set up dhcp networking, set X to a pleasant 1600x1200 resolution, set up my Audigy 2 soundcard with alsa for surround sound, set up my usb epson scanner for immediate xsane usage. It failed to set up my two printers (local and networked) but the printool accomplished this without resort to a horrific cli (note sarcasm). I also enabled 3d acceleration for my nvidia graphics card using the unofficial ubuntu guide in 5 minutes flat. Sorry I prefer Ubuntu not because I'm a newbie (I have used redhat 7, rhel3, mandrake 7-9, gentoo, Debian, SUSE and several others) but simply because I hate remembering a whole bunch of distro dependent tweaks |
| SFN Aug 01, 2005 7:30 AM EDT |
I'm a confessed distro-hopper and I've been wanting to try out PCLinuxOS. I've got a spare machine so I'll give it a shot. devnet, Any particular tips, tweaks or pitfalls I should keep an eye out for? |
| devnet Aug 01, 2005 2:39 PM EDT |
SFN, Yep...give the New User's Guide (Link is on the desktop in PCLOS). http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage That will get you through just about everything...if it boots of course. There always is a danger that a distro may not like your PC. I get that even with distros like FC4 and Vector Linux. UnionFS is experimental right now in PCLOS and is enabled by default. Remember that PCLOS is in "Preview" still and hasn't released a stable version. I recommend it for newbies because it is visually pleasing and usually each preview is somewhat stable. However, unionfs was put in the latest snapshot as the default setting...next version will clear it up. Simple disable is to type at boot prompt: unionfs=no |
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