Manufacturing perceptions.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| salparadise Jun 13, 2007 10:03 PM EDT |
I wonder how this is going to play out in the long run.
Every company/distro that signs up with MS makes the pressure on those that haven't more intense. The more that sign up the greater weight behind MS when they squeal and whine about patents. The more that sign up the greater the perception that Linux does indeed owe MS more than a nod. The more that sign up the greater the impetus behind the idea that all distros should sign up. I suspect MS know this only too well. Has any distro/company released a statement saying "even if all the rest sign, we will never sign" - cus it might be time to change distro for me? |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 13, 2007 10:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:cus it might be time to change distro for me? You were running Linspire? |
| salparadise Jun 13, 2007 10:38 PM EDT |
ROFL
Oh dear no.
Tried it - hated it. I want some assurance is all. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 13, 2007 11:48 PM EDT |
Debian or Red Hat should be quite safe :-) And even if hell freezes over and one of them does sign, you can bet that they'll be forked before you can say "WTF?!" |
| tracyanne Jun 14, 2007 2:23 AM EDT |
In spite of the perceptions that Microsoft has tried to create these agreements are more to do with their curent technologies, like Open XML, these agreements do give it some sort of legitimacy, and their proprietary networking protocols, that Europe is insisting they license freely, once again these agreements give the paid for licensing of them some legitimacy. This is what the slight of hand with vapourware patents has been all about. It also means that Microsoft can control access to these technologies, or at least believe thay can, and in any case it doe give them an assured income. BTW, Canonical will be next, unless the deal that DELL has with Microsoft makes it unnecessary. |
| bigg Jun 14, 2007 3:30 AM EDT |
> Has any distro/company released a statement saying "even if all the rest sign, we will never sign" - cus it might be time to change distro for me? You're safe with Debian. I can not think of any possible way that Debian, which is just a group of developers, could make a deal with Microsoft. Only a company could make such a deal. |
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 14, 2007 3:58 AM EDT |
>>BTW, Canonical will be next, unless the deal that DELL has with Microsoft makes it unnecessary. tracyanne: Could you expand on this a bit. I'm not getting your point here, and would like to. >>Only a company could make such a deal. bigg: Debian is a company known as SPI, Inc. The big difference is that it is a non-profit company, and thus has no motive to sign. So I agree one is safe with Debian. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 4:36 AM EDT |
Well, I must admit that I am surprised. Not shocked, but surprised. Oh well. What the heck is the appeal for Linspire? One thing I notice is that the announcement doesn't make a reference to covering Linux or any GPL'd software -- though it may. Instead, it refers to covering "LInspire technologies". Sure wish we had more info... |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 4:53 AM EDT |
> Debian or Red Hat should be quite safe... Agreed. Slackware should be safe too. Patrick has had more than enough time to sell out already if he were going to. Personally, I still expect Mepis to be next, but I'll not be that surprised if it's Ubuntu. |
| rijelkentaurus Jun 14, 2007 5:37 AM EDT |
Carmony seemed to argue against the patent deal of Novell, at least in part, here: http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=36 He said that he would prefer that a court system or other outside source decide whether there was IP infringement, not these sorts of deals. I guess Linspire wanted the $$. I see that as sorta like Xandros....does anyone use Freespire? I found it to be a POS...Debian with the usability reduced...now it's Ubuntu with the usability reduced, which itself is Debian with the usability reduced, LOL. Oh, well. |
| ABCC Jun 14, 2007 5:59 AM EDT |
Hehehe, that didn't take long! So, who will be next? Has Mandriva made any comments about this yet? PCLinux is another one I see faltering. As for Ubuntu... I would be VERY suprised if they signed a deal like this one. It would effectively be creative suicide for them. The one thing that Xandros and Linspire have in common is that nobody really gives a hoot about them. As for Novell, they've never really seemed to know what to do with SuSe, atleast not while they have Netware hanging around their neck. But.... Live Search??? Who the hell wants Live Search??? It's one thing to change the browser default to a document about the distro, but to Microsoft Live Search.... Take a polished desktop distro, make it easy to install closed source 'goodies' through your own CNR system.. and then slap a big fat MS logo on the one app that all customers will use. Has Kevin Carmony ever read a book on branding? |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 6:06 AM EDT |
But .... Question - Does anybody know what the actual terms of the deal are? Is it like Novell's or is it something different? I can't tell a damned thing from the announcement. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 14, 2007 6:10 AM EDT |
Quoting:PCLinux is another one I see faltering. Excuse me?! I don't think so. Tex is running a one-man show, a community distro. It's not a company. Besides, I think he's grunning ear-to-ear that most of the Xandrosians banded together and jumped to PCLinuxOS as a group. That should give him quite a boost. I don't see Canonical signing either. Besides Mark's dislike for Microsoft and the zealottery of the average Ubuntu user, the masses would consider it very hypocrite if Mark signs sich a deal after the message he posted on the Novell mailinglists after the MS-Novell deal. |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 6:19 AM EDT |
> So, who will be next? Mepis. I don't see Warren passing on the kind of money Microsoft can throw his way. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 6:28 AM EDT |
Never mind. Just read the FAQ up on the Linspire site. Must now question the intelligence of somebody who seemed like a pretty sharp cookie previously, if not one beloved by FOSS purists and Linux elitists. |
| ABCC Jun 14, 2007 6:31 AM EDT |
It looks like a mere interoperability agreement with some bologna about patents blended in to confuse and muddy the waters a bit. Lindows have always been keen to distribute varies binaries to make their customers' lives easier, fair play to them for that. As far as I'm aware they don't have any patents themselves, which makes this deal more like the Xandros one. It will result in them distributing wmv, ttf, some half baked openxml odf converter and some MS branding. Along with all the other proprietary stuff Lindows distribute it'll be a confused mess of companies trying to get your attention to get you to cough up more dough, just like windows is already. The whole patent covenant issue is, well, patently ridiculous. Taking anybody to court probably carries far too much risk for MS to proceed with it. However, as we can read in the Hallowe'en documents, manufacturing the perception that patent infringement is "serious business" is a tried and tested means of inhibiting the expansion of Linux in the market place. I thought that with their 'Get the FUD (facts)" campaign they may have put that strategy behind them, but it looks like it has been dusted off again. Get the FUD must have failed or atleast fallen short of expectations given that even the mainstream PC press wasn't too impressed with the non sequitors and MS subsidised studies. So they're back to their old tricks, harping on about patents to make CIOs and legal departments worry (and then choose the safest option). The other hand meanwhile will try to push a few more EULA encumbered binary blobs and the like into Linux for the sake of 'interoperability'. This is their classic embrace and extend/divide and conquer tactic, as used against Java and HTML amongst others. Play along while you lay your traps and then start wringing the competition when they can't back out. In this light I don't worry about Lindows or Xandros, they're fairly irrelevant when you get down to it. Suse was the biggest 'scalp' MS will get. If they can get mixed-OS businesses to integrate SuSe on an MS controlled network (mail / office docs / active directory - the rest linux will be allowed to have) then they will have the ability to cripple Linux at a whim. If money is at stake, an unforseen 'breakage' every few months will convince people that Linux is a nonstarter for anything more than a file server. After all, the greatest software company in the world (tm) cooperated with them and wasn't able to get it to work properly right?? |
| land0 Jun 14, 2007 6:38 AM EDT |
Honestly I am not surprised about Linspire bending ov... uh giving in. I am beginning to wonder if M$ is making these deals to cover their ass in regards to technology that they have **cough** borrowed from the FOSS community. One blatant example being the "new"authentication model they are now using. Maybe the saber rattling is a distraction method designed to piss off the FOSS community to the point that we do not see that it is they who need the patent portfolios of Linux based corporations in order to embrace copy and emulate. As those of us who have been using Linux for a while know the emulation has been going on for some time now. No matter what the reason is behind this the fact is all of these companies have commonality. They all have tried to emulate M$ in order to gain a market share of users. Can you say Lindows? For those who say what about Mov$ll they did not try to emulate M$. I have to point to a presentation I sat about 1/4 of the way through at Linuxfest Northwest right after Mov$ll bought SUSE. Their bright idea? Look and act exactly like XP I mean exactly down to the default wallpaper. I got up and walked out shaking my head. Made lots of noise in the process. :p I don't know about the rest of you but I see a pattern here. Are the patent claims are a smoke screen ? As far fetched as it may seems maybe just maybe M$ is actually covering their ass. Food for though anyway. :) |
| ABCC Jun 14, 2007 6:40 AM EDT |
PCLinux, you're right, I was wrong. I thought, but wasn't sure, that Michael Robertsons was the head honcho over there. Now that I see that he of course was the owner of Lindows I'm back on track as it were :D My sincerest apologies to any PCLinux fans/devs for associating you with such tripe. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 6:44 AM EDT |
> I am beginning to wonder if M$ is making these deals to cover their ass in regards to technology that they have **cough** borrowed from the FOSS community. I seriously doubt that because these deals do absolutely nothing in that regard -- except for the fairly small percentage of code actually contributed by the linux distros themselves. |
| land0 Jun 14, 2007 6:55 AM EDT |
@dinotrac Unless M$ needs CNR to work in their next version of Lindows. (tongue in cheek) :) I am not swearing by my thought as truth BTW. Just an interesting pattern I saw in regards to this whole mess. :p |
| bigg Jun 14, 2007 6:57 AM EDT |
> Mepis. I don't see Warren passing on the kind of money Microsoft can throw his way. Considering that he whines about money more than anyone in the FOSS community, and has even hinted at quitting Mepis due to money issues, I would be surprised to see him turn down an offer. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 7:20 AM EDT |
>I would be surprised to see him turn down an offer. Is Microsoft actually paying anybody? The only mention of money-changing hands I see in the Lindows deal is money from Lindows to Microsoft. The Novell deal needs to be viewed in a separate light from Xandros and Linspire. Novell, as a company and as a technology, stood in a very different position vis-a-vis Microsoft than the pure Linux distros do. |
| Abe Jun 14, 2007 7:45 AM EDT |
Cheer up guys and look at the positive side. MS is weeding out the garbage distros for us. Distros that are following Novell's foot steps never believed in Freedom any how and they are in it for the money from the beginning. Novel was hurting bad, Xandros was in it for the money from day one. LinSpire! Ha, they didn't even offer their distro for download to begin with. CNR was offered on "pay per view/use" basis. Let's face it, the wishing washy distros expected to make a killing and make lots of money out of FOSS. It didn't happen and on contrary they are really hurting. MS knows that and they are practically buying them out of the market. MS is wining the propaganda war so far and eventually will sue whoever is left. They will not get what they are after since FOSS has the will, stamina and world popularity and not only in the US where its is favorable to them to sue. Those who still look at MS as a changed company should think again. And those who still doubt the FSF and think they have an agenda other than software freedom should thing twice more. There is no way MS is going to live with FOSS in hormony. MS is a very venomous snake that have to keep eating to survive. Its sneaky sleazy methods are they only way it knows how and its venom is the only tool available to it to use. The way I see it, Debian, PCLinuxOS, SLAX and few others are the only ones we can feel comfortable with for now. Ubuntu I would say 50-50 at this time and only because from its inception, Mark said, Ubuntu is for humanity and will remain free, but never under-estimate the power of money, Ubuntu could go the way of Novell too. Like they say, everyone has its price, and MS is proving it to us almost every day. |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 7:51 AM EDT |
> MS is weeding out the garbage distros for us. Well, while I hate to be dismissive of anyone's efforts, I have to agree. Novell made a mistake. The same cannot be said for Xandros and Linspire. |
| Abe Jun 14, 2007 8:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:The only mention of money-changing hands I see in the Lindows deal is money from Lindows to Microsoft. Dino, Are you seriuos!? Please don't be a lamb. If you don't see it, it doesn't mean it is not there. What incentive would LinSpire, Xandros, etc... have to make such a deal other than cash? Do you believe all that rhetoric about interoperability and consumer demands? MS is on a shopping spree. They don't want you to know the details for good reasons they have, one of them is to ovoid the FCC from coming after them. Doesn't that make sense? |
| vainrveenr Jun 14, 2007 8:06 AM EDT |
Sort of figured that Linspire would cave-in.....
This after
1. Carmony's lack of community participation since hyping CNR as the be-all-end-all back in Jan/Feb of this year (LXer discussions at (http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/24526/ and at http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/24730/)
2. Carmony's recent FUD statement against GPLv3 (LXer discussions at http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/25434/ and at http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/25438/) Besides Linspire, here is a list of distros that may be next :( --- and entirely based upon the above discussion so far to date : Canonical/Ubuntu Mandriva MEPIS PCLinuxOS NOT necessarily listed here in order of which is likely to cave-in first! RedHat, Debian, and Slackware are obviously off this list. Agreed with Abe at this one -- Canonical/Ubuntu would be one of the next BIG catche$ for MS. > MS is weeding out the garbage distros for us. Yes, and more "garbage distros" on the low-end will likely end up making patent-agreement deals with MS. One can think of this in U.S. baseball terms. If MS cannot "hit homeruns" with the bigger players Red Hat and Canonical, then they can easily "play little-ball" with the garbage distros to collect so-called baseball runs, thus attempting to weaken Linux/FOSS at the periphery. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 9:39 AM EDT |
>Dino, Are you seriuos!? Please don't be a lamb. Umm, Abe, I'll try not be a lamb if you'll stop being a bat, as in blind as a. If you weren't, you would have seen the following: >Is Microsoft actually paying anybody? That, in linguistic terms, is known as a question. |
| montezuma Jun 14, 2007 9:46 AM EDT |
Quote from Warren Woodford of Mepis: "I'm reminded of Neville Chamberlain waiving his agreement with Hitler in the air and declaring peace in his time. Linux vendors should be reminded that, if you give your lunch money to a bully, the bully does not go away. Who will have the cojones to just say no? The Linux community may not like the answer, but the only name that comes to mind is—Larry Ellison." http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2145483,00.asp Hmmmmm |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 9:48 AM EDT |
> Is Microsoft actually paying anybody? Dino, given the complexity of these deals, I suspect we'd have to get an accountant before we could be certain, and then there wouldn't be any guarantees. I'm sure that's deliberate on Microsoft's part. |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 9:50 AM EDT |
> ...but the only name that comes to mind is—Larry Ellison. From publicly available comments, Red Hat has already said no several times. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 9:58 AM EDT |
>Dino, given the complexity of these deals, I suspect we'd have to get an accountant before we could be certain, Maybe so, but, as it stands, any money from Microsoft to Linspire (or Xandros) is speculation, period. Treating speculation as fact may be appropriate for those trying to convince the public they didn't really see great big airplanes flying into the WTC, but has no place in reasoned discussions. |
| Abe Jun 14, 2007 10:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:That, in linguistic terms, is known as a question. Being a question instead of a statement is what I was talking about. Obviously you still don't think there is a high chance of being done. I personally believe this is exactly what is happening. |
| montezuma Jun 14, 2007 10:24 AM EDT |
"In November, Carmony wrote: “(Does anyone following ODF believe Microsoft's proposed "open standards" are really open, or just self-serving?) Given their history, I'm understandably very skeptical that Microsoft sincerely wants to do much here. They'll do a few inconsequential things, again, to give the impression they're trying to interoperate, but they'll continue to protect the turf that matters most to them; their staggeringly profitable Microsoft Windows operating system and Microsoft Office dominions.” Yesterday Lindows announced: “Linspire now joins a growing group of open source software (OSS) distributors collaborating with Microsoft on efforts to establish rich interoperability, deliver IP assurance to customers and build the bridge between open source and proprietary software.” .... a quotation that Carmony himself chose to begin his response to the Microsoft/Novell deal: “Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." Francisco d'Anconia (Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged)" http://www.businessreviewonline.com/os/archives/2007/06/a_sl... |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 10:29 AM EDT |
> ...any money from Microsoft to Linspire (or Xandros) is speculation, period. Agreed, but can you think of any other reason Xandros and Linspire would agree to the deals, given that they already knew what the reaction was going to be? |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 10:49 AM EDT |
>but can you think of any other reason Xandros and Linspire would agree to the deals, I presume money, but Linspire is getting a few things out of the deal in the way of codecs, etc. I know that Linspire started out as Lindows -- trying to be like Windows so that it would be a comfortable switch for Windows users. Microsoft may have laid some stuff on them to make that work better. Maybe they just don't have the cash to survive mean looks from Redmond. I d on't know. Is Linspire publicly held? If so, we'll find out for sure in time. |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 11:35 AM EDT |
> ...but Linspire is getting a few things out of the deal in the way of codecs, etc. I thought Linspire already had the rights to most of that stuff from their earlier settlement with Microsoft, but I could be wrong. > Is Linspire publicly held? If so, we'll find out for sure in time. Added: No. From their page: What is Linspire, Inc.'s stock symbol? At this time, Linspire, Inc. is privately held and not publicly traded. Therefore, there is no stock symbol for the company. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 11:36 AM EDT |
>I thought Linspire already had the rights to most of that stuff from their earlier settlement with Microsoft, but I could be wrong. I thought so, too...but maybe they are getting more extensive rights. The announcement doesn't provide the basis for much informed discussion. |
| jdixon Jun 14, 2007 11:40 AM EDT |
> ...The announcement doesn't provide the basis for much informed discussion. As is often the case with Microsoft related releases, it does seem to be rather short on factual information. |
| ottawalonndon Jun 14, 2007 11:49 AM EDT |
From one of the links above is the following quote
Kevin Carmony here
Quoting:Linspire looks forward to helping forge MORE work between all Linux companies. The real challenge here is the monopoly of the mind Microsoft holds over desktop users. By working together, we stand the best chance of succeeding in breaking through that wall.dcparris responded here thus Quoting:No problem Kevin. I know all too well what can happen when people assume more than they should. I'm subject to that myself sometimes. ;-)Another Capitol idea there! Indeed really now, without more details of these seemingly sinister but decidedly cloaked deals, just how much can anyone assume about these deals, what? |
| Abe Jun 14, 2007 12:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:without more details of these seemingly sinister but decidedly cloaked deals, just how much now can anyone reall assume about these deals, what? True, without factually confirmed details, we can't be sure of anything. We are deliberately being left without enough information to keep us wondering and not to take a firm unified stand. That is a perfected MS style by the way. What is announced and publicized openly is mostly PR and sales piches. On the other hand, we can always speculate, logically deduct, and try to fit the pieces of the puzzle together with little of info we have as best as we can. I think most of us here have been around long enough and seen enough to make pretty good judgement to see what is really going on. We will not be 100% accurate, but we sure can come close to it. |
| bigg Jun 14, 2007 12:24 PM EDT |
> I thought Linspire already had the rights to most of that stuff from their earlier settlement with Microsoft, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure they lost the rights to codecs in 2008 under the settlement. |
| tracyanne Jun 14, 2007 2:07 PM EDT |
Quoting: tracyanne: Could you expand on this a bit. I'm not getting your point here, and would like to. For some time, since about 1998, I believe, Microsoft has been under the gun in Europe for not making it's networking protocols free available - in fact they have been racking up hefty fines since about 2002, and the EU commisioners in charge of the legal proceeding have said they believe Microsoft should make the protocols available under a free license. In addition Microsoft Open XML format Documents has not met with the general acceptance they had hoped, especially in Europe, where there has, and continues to be, strong adoption of the ODF standard, and Microsoft's Open XML standard is not getting the sort of reception at the ISO hearing they would like, and their "let's have two standards" rhetoric has not gone down well in the technical press either. These agreements with SuSE, and Xandros, and Linspire are all about exactly these connectivity issues. Networking and Documets (Open XML). The two things Microsoft needs to control, in order to maintain their deathlike grip on the desktop market, and indeed to increase their market share in the server room. Whether this will work in the long run is yet to be seen, but Microsoft can afford to play the long game, and have always done so. Their vapourware of the late 1980s/early 1990s, that finally culminated in Windows 95 - an OS that was barely a shadow of the vapourware promise - is an example. The point is I believe the alleged patents are a smoke screen for what appears, to my mind to be actually happening. The agreements have nothing to do with those alleged patents, and everything to do with connectivity (networking protocols and document translation - Open XML). It seems to me that this is an attempt to ensure that they can tie up enough Linux vendors in these connectivity agreements, and at the same time make a lot of noise about patents - the only patents being, in fact ,those in the technologies involved in the connectivity agreements - so that at the end they can control access to those technologies, and also the relative importance of those technologies, and i in the process it costs less than the EU fines, and they can them get the EU off their back, they are then clearly winners. |
| flufferbeer Jun 14, 2007 2:21 PM EDT |
PJ writes in her current Groklaw piece 'Linspire joins the plot' at
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070614085735536 :
Quoting:It's so nice of Linspire to help Microsoft out with its EU problem. I know we've all been so worried Microsoft would be forced to provide the marketplace with the necessary specs so we could all be interoperable. Now Microsoft can tell the EU Commission Linspire prefers to have Microsoft decide who can and who can't interoperate based on who signs up for patent chains and pays Microsoft for the privilege. Who wouldn't prefer that?PJ's point here is now much clearer in terms of what tracyanne just wrote. |
| dcparris Jun 14, 2007 3:27 PM EDT |
traceyanne: You ought to write an op/ed piece with those thoughts. I think it would be fantastic. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 4:16 PM EDT |
Tracyanne - That's interesting on its face, but also because the Microsoft deal with Apple was intended to influence the Justice Department's antitrust case ten years ago. |
| bigg Jun 14, 2007 4:18 PM EDT |
Tracyanne and flufferbeer: I'm not following your argument completely. If anything, it seems to me that Microsoft is worsening the situation in Europe with these deals. It shows that (a) Microsoft can do what they've been told to do, with little difficulty, and (b) it's sufficiently important that Linux distributors are willing to pay a ton of money for access. The European authorities have told them what they have to do. I don't see why the authorities would leave MS alone just because other companies are paying them to follow through. |
| helios Jun 14, 2007 6:10 PM EDT |
I've been keeping an eye out on this problem. Sorry...that was really bad (for those that know) For those that don't, I just lost my left eye. Actually, I didn't lose it, I know exactly where it is. Let the cyclops jokes begin. Now, has it dawned on anyone that MS is picking off companies that either do, have in the past, and probably will in the future; run parts of their OS that is proprietary? Making any connections yet? Smarter men than me already have. It's gonna make sense pretty quick. You're not gonna like it. Oh, "As for Ubuntu... I would be VERY suprised if they signed a deal like this one" He has EVERY reason to sign a deal like this. That is, if he can withstand the backlash from the community. its gonna be a nightmare if he does. ESR hasn't returned my calls yet. |
| dinotrac Jun 14, 2007 6:49 PM EDT |
>For those that don't, I just lost my left eye. Sorry to hear that, Ken. Hope you are coping well. No Sammy Davis, Jr. jokes, I promise. Not even the one about being asked his golf handicap and replying "I'm a one-eyed black jew." |
| devnet Jun 14, 2007 6:51 PM EDT |
Perhaps it is time we formed a group umbrella announcing that our distros have banded together and agreed not to sue each other? |
| kozmcrae Jun 14, 2007 7:24 PM EDT |
@ helios I hope your problem with depth perception didn't come about as a result of your efforts in expanding the ever-growing usage of Linux. If so, you may hold the distinction of being the guy who's lost more body parts in the name of Linux. @ anybody It seems Microsoft has finally realized that the simplest, most direct way to solve the "Linux Problem" is to use their most powerful and plentiful asset, money. Money, it seems, can't buy and ideal, but sure can destroy one. |
| bigg Jun 14, 2007 8:07 PM EDT |
> ESR hasn't returned my calls yet. I guess I hadn't thought about that. The Linspire deal is a straightforward implementation of his plan for domination (or whatever it is this week) isn't it? |
| dinotrac Jun 15, 2007 2:40 AM EDT |
>The Linspire deal is a straightforward implementation of his plan for domination (or whatever it is this week) isn't it? ????? What planet do you live on? I don't recall any indications of love between ESR and Microsoft on this one. Please enlighten me. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 15, 2007 3:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:For those that don't, I just lost my left eye. Ouch. I'm sorry for you. Lacking depth perception is a big PITA (I lost use of one eye for two months a couple of years back after a fight). I hope you can cope. |
| bigg Jun 15, 2007 5:41 AM EDT |
> I don't recall any indications of love between ESR and Microsoft on this one.
Please enlighten me. Here's a quote from http://desktoplinux.com/news/NS4091414098.html [Eric said that "We need a good answer for the twenty-year-old whose first question about Linux is 'Will it run my iPod?'" Freespire can't. It's doable on Linux, but you need WINE or Crossover Office. Raymond thinks, though, that, "No matter how painful, no matter how ugly, we must enable the Linux desktop to run Windows media, to support iPods. We may not want binary programs in user-space, but we must have them." If we don't, Raymond thinks the Linux desktop will miss its one opportunity to make a significant dent in the Windows desktop monopoly.] From Carmony's letter: [This agreement will offer several advantages to Linspire Linux users not found anywhere else, such as Windows Media 10 support, genuine Microsoft TrueType fonts, Microsoft patent coverage, improved interoperability with Microsoft Windows computers, and so on.] and [Today, Linspire announced our latest partnership, one with Microsoft, to bring even more choices to desktop Linux users, and together, offer a "better" Linux experience.] ESR believes Linux can't move forward unless all of this proprietary stuff is available for Linux. That is exactly what the Linspire deal provides. |
| Abe Jun 15, 2007 6:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:ESR believes Linux can't move forward unless all of this proprietary stuff is available for Linux. That is exactly what the Linspire deal provides. You have a very good point, and at the same time, I don't believe ESR meant to do what is being done by LinSpire and others. There are other ways and means, e.g (Samba) and the many of FOSS applications that run on Windows. FOSS has done and continue to do its parts but MS isn't. Making MS products run on Linux is the responsibility of MS alone and don't need any one else because FOSS is open. MS trying to avoid admitting that Linux is becoming mainstream is not going to work, it will have to concede. MS is coming in as an uninvited guest to keep its association with FOSS vague. They just can't digest the idea yet and going to have to, especially when MS products are replaced and no one is forced to go to MS because only it has a certain product. That is happening every day. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 15, 2007 6:28 AM EDT |
Quoting:Eric said that "We need a good answer for the twenty-year-old whose first question about Linux is 'Will it run my iPod?'" How odd. My Debian/Etch works perfectly out-of-the-box with my girlfriend's iPod Nano. No need for Wine of CO. If he was talking about iTunes he may have a point, but iPod work just fine. |
| dinotrac Jun 15, 2007 7:00 AM EDT |
ESR, in his next breath, said - "No matter how painful, no matter how ugly, we must enable the Linux desktop to run Windows media, to support iPods. We may not want binary programs in user-space, but we must have them." That's a long way from wanting to play nice with Microsoft. That's more a matter of wanting people to use Linux and being willing to tolerate some unpleasantness to do it. Willing to accept one pain does not imply willingness to accept another, different pain. >My Debian/Etch works perfectly out-of-the-box with my girlfriend's iPod Nano. So how does iTunes work for you? I can see my wife's Nano on my Suse box without any grief, but it's hard to say the ipod "works" with Linux if iTunes didn't. The two are rather tightly tied together. |
| Sander_Marechal Jun 15, 2007 7:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:So how does iTunes work for you? Don't care. We have over 200 CD and most of them have been ripped to my server. She just puts a different batch of MP3's on it every week for her ride to work. If we want new music (which hardly ever happens anymore) we'll buy CD's, not DRM'ed downloads. |
| bigg Jun 15, 2007 7:36 AM EDT |
> I don't believe ESR meant to do what is being done by LinSpire and others. Clearly most of the objection comes from the patent protection provided by the deal. It appears that the only way Linspire was going to get the deal was with the patent protection included. The question is whether the proprietary goodies are worth accepting the patent protection. For me the patent protection is neither good or bad, and I don't have a use for any of the proprietary crap that they get in this deal. The deal will be good for Linspire, though, because their target customer will only care that his/her computer works like Windows. > That's a long way from wanting to play nice with Microsoft. True, but I don't know that Carmony wants to play nice with Microsoft either. He used gentle language in the announcement, but he has always made it clear that Linspire's goal is to steal Windows users, because the Linux market is too small to be worth his time. |
| dinotrac Jun 15, 2007 7:38 AM EDT |
>Don't care. That's what I figured. For most folks, however, iPod really equals iPod + iTunes. My wife is that way. In fact, much as she loves her iPod, she refuses to buy another one. We have switched over to alternative mp3 players. |
| dinotrac Jun 15, 2007 7:40 AM EDT |
> It appears that the only way Linspire was going to get the deal was with the patent protection included. I'd be interested to know what the terms of that protection are. |
| jsusanka Jun 15, 2007 9:15 AM EDT |
mepis will be next - or warren will move to canada one thing I noticed is all the deals are US based companies - don't know if that has to do with anything but just an observation I don't see any company outside the US agreeing to these deals. I think ubuntu would work with microsoft but they would never agree to the patent clause. |
| Abe Jun 15, 2007 10:25 AM EDT |
Quoting:mepis will be next - or warren will move to canadaI sympathise with Warren, and I think he could have been more cooperative with the community Quoting:one thing I noticed is all the deals are US based companies -I believe you are right and the reason is because other countries don't have the bad type of patent laws that the USA has. It also could be because MS is a BAD US company and don't scare them easily. Quoting:I think ubuntu would work with microsoft but they would never agree to the patent clause.It is not too bad to deal with MS on equal terms, but dealing with MS on their own terms is futile. Let's hope Mark is as savvy as you think he is. |
| Abe Jun 15, 2007 10:26 AM EDT |
Quoting:I'd be interested to know what the terms of that protection are. Don't we all !!! |
| devnet Jun 15, 2007 10:40 AM EDT |
@dino, I recommend the iAudio x5L...best mp3 player I've found out there. Plays anything you throw at it. I also like the Creative Vision:M but it works a bit wonky due to MTP as it communication protocol. @jsusanka, I think the next targets are ubuntu and Mandriva...and I think Mark Shuttleworth may think he'll be able to 'grease the wheels' if a deal is made by 'explaining' it. I think he'll believe that he can put a spin on it that is acceptable to the community. Time will tell. I think MEPIS is something that Microsoft isn't interested in. |
| Abe Jun 15, 2007 10:55 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think MEPIS is something that Microsoft isn't interested in.I wouldn't be too sure about that. The more the better and they are interested in anyone and everyone without any bias. As I recall. They did say this offer is available to anyone after closing the deal with Novell, didn't they? |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 15, 2007 11:06 AM EDT |
I think Microsoft will absolutely go after Mepis, no doubt in my mind whatsoever. And MS is probably already doing a dance of some kind with Canonical. That would be the big get for MS, and right now Canonical is such a big, big fish (like AOL was before the bottom dropped out of the dialup market) that Shuttleworth might think he can do whatever he wants or needs to see that his distro survives. Perhaps I don't give him enough credit, since I don't know him, and I hope he realizes that making a deal with MS is the beginning of the end. Another one to watch for is Sun, whose motivation for developing Open Office, I figure, is largely to blunt Microsoft's desktop monopoly. Without OO, Linux wouldn't be doing half as well as it is. Like it or not, this Microsoft situation is going to divide the FOSS community. Expect positions to harden considerably over the next few months. Who will sign with Microsoft next? That's what I want to know. |
| dcparris Jun 15, 2007 1:48 PM EDT |
Considering Ubuntu's "Bug #1", I wonder if Shuttleworth will play with MS? |
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