Do you trust your distribution?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| ColonelPanik Feb 18, 2008 5:48 AM EDT |
Debian |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 6:05 AM EDT |
Well, in my case, it would be do I trust Patrick Volkerding more so than do I trust my distribution. And the answer to that would be yes. He's never given me a reason not to. Added: I should also note that Slackware was the third distro to put out an update for this particular vulnerability. |
| S3Indiana Feb 18, 2008 7:06 AM EDT |
Of course, and that's Freespire.... |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 7:34 AM EDT |
Opensuse, of course. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 7:41 AM EDT |
> Of course, and that's Freespire.... An alleged quote by P. T. Barnum comes to mind... |
| NoDough Feb 18, 2008 8:45 AM EDT |
S3Indiana>> Of course, and that's Freespire.... jdixon> An alleged quote by P. T. Barnum comes to mind... S3Indiana, I haven't seen you around before, so I'll give you a tip. Most of the people who frequent these forums believe the people behind Linspire/Freespire to be evil incarnate. I personally don't get it. If you're a Freespire fan, you deserve to know before the vitriol begins. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 8:50 AM EDT |
> Most of the people who frequent these forums believe the people behind Linspire/Freespire to be evil incarnate. Nah, just minor minions serving the greater evil from Redmond. :) |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 8:51 AM EDT |
> Most of the people who frequent these forums believe the people behind Linspire/Freespire to be evil incarnate. I personally don't get it. I wouldn't go that far, but there is a lot to dislike about freespire. I was wary of lindows for security reasons (dunno if they ever fixed the default user = root issue), but it may have had potential. They seem to have acquired an off-putting stench though, since their deal with microsoft. IMHO a linux distro that defaults to windoze live search is a bit of a disgrace. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 8:54 AM EDT |
> I was wary of lindows for security reasons (dunno if they ever fixed the default user = root issue), but it may have had potential. In particular their marketing efforts were deserving of praise. Say what you will about them from a technical viewpoint, they made a real effort to market Linux to new users and to make their preloaded machines readily available to the masses. Something the more mainstream distributions would do well to emulate. |
| tuxtom Feb 18, 2008 9:04 AM EDT |
Linspire has it's own place in my heart and should in the hearts of all Linux enthusiasts: It is the first Linux distribution to be installed as the default operating system on widely distributed consumer PC's sold at major retailers. In that respect it was novel. I bought one of these PC's for $200 a several years ago and remember driving home from the store almost high on the fact that I just bought a PC that had Linux pre-installed from a major store. I had a BIG shell eating grin. Of course, I promptly reformatted the drive and threw Debian or Ubuntu Warthog (can't remember which) on it w/o X to use as a testing server at home. That box is long gone now. (Ooops...sorry jdixon, your post got here first...didn't mean to reiterate your comment. ) |
| gus3 Feb 18, 2008 9:13 AM EDT |
> In particular their marketing efforts were deserving of praise. Say what you will about them from a technical viewpoint, they made a real effort to market Linux to new users and to make their preloaded machines readily available to the masses. Their marketing efforts were pushing a product with an inferior, dangerous configuration. Had they been successful at their marketing, the net result would have been all the headaches of Windows, and all the blame on "Linux" (however that was defined at the moment). |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 9:36 AM EDT |
> Their marketing efforts were pushing a product with an inferior, dangerous configuration. I thought that was pretty much covered by the "technical viewpoint" comment. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 9:38 AM EDT |
> ...didn't mean to reiterate your comment. It's OK. The lack of current Linux distributors to do anything to market Linux is something that needs all the reiteration it can get. It's a sorry state of affairs when Linspire does more to market Linux to people than Red Hat. |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 9:49 AM EDT |
> It's a sorry state of affairs when Linspire does more to market Linux to people than Red Hat. I read years ago that redhat said, in essence, they simply had no desire to compete in the desktop market, preferring to concentrate on the server side. Their lack of desktop interest has been telling, as I could never see the sense in paying $180 for an "enterprise desktop" that couldn't even play mp3s. |
| tuxtom Feb 18, 2008 10:34 AM EDT |
> ...It's a sorry state of affairs when Linspire does more to market Linux to people than Red Hat. RedHat does only market to the "enterprise", and in that respect they have made a lot of progress in the server room on some corporate desktops. "No one ever got fired for using RedHat." They aren't the company to make huge pushes in the consumer market, though. But who knows? Maybe they'll buy up PCLinux or something and things will change dramatically out there. If anybody has the credibility and resources to do it it's RedHat. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 18, 2008 10:38 AM EDT |
Quoting:Their marketing efforts were pushing a product with an inferior, dangerous configuration. Had they been successful at their marketing, the net result would have been all the headaches of Windows, and all the blame on "Linux" (however that was defined at the moment). I agree but, in general most products that actually make it to be "marketed" are inferior because they have had to be dumbed down for some reason or another by marketing people who don't know jack squat about what they are marketing. Linspire could be a lot better but it could also be a lot worse and whether some people like it or not, it is Linux and not Windows, even if Linspire the company really wishes it was. I will give them credit for what they have done to get the word "Linux" known in the marketplace and sold by big retailers, starting the Desktop Linux Summit that I really really really really wish they had continued sponsoring and hosting near their headquarters in San Diego, but that's about it. Other than that they have made some decisions that I totally disagree with but lucky for them, I am not in a position to change things to what I wish they were. Because if I was... |
| hughesjr Feb 18, 2008 10:56 AM EDT |
@herzeleid you can certainly play mp3's on Red Hat. You can't on the FREE distros. The reason, a distro would need to pay a patent tax to distribute an MP3 player in the USA, and distros that do not change money can not pay to distribute their free software. The real question is, unless your business is making and distributing MP3's, why do you need to do that on an enterprise desktop. If you were complaining about a home desktop, OK ... but a business one??? If my enterprise people are swapping/playing mp3's they are NOT doing what they should be one their PCs. Nowadays, most video content is done via flash anyway, which works perfectly well on Red Hat, CentOS, Fedora, etc. |
| Egon_Spengler Feb 18, 2008 11:03 AM EDT |
S3Indiana is a MAJOR moderator/corporate go-between on the Lindows/Freedows fora, so no surprise HIS choice is Freedows. |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 11:06 AM EDT |
hughejr: > you can certainly play mp3's on Red Hat. LOL, I always had to hack redhat and later fedora to allow mp3 playback. Last I checked, redhat enterprise desktop did not support mp3 playback, not to mention DVDs or many popular video formats. When did that change? > The real question is, unless your business is making and distributing MP3's, why do you need to do that on an enterprise desktop. If you were complaining about a home desktop, OK ... AFAICS mp3 is a common format in the business world. podcasts etc are not just for "home users" as you put it. but be that as it may, if the "enterprise desktop" is really just a crippled, stripped down version of the "home user" system, the $180 price tag seems a bit steep IMHO. |
| tuxtom Feb 18, 2008 11:12 AM EDT |
> ...the $180 price tag seems a bit steep IMHO. CentOS? |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 11:21 AM EDT |
> CentOS? neatly sidestepping the issue. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 18, 2008 11:52 AM EDT |
I trust Debian, and PCLinuxOS.. at least I think I do.. :-) |
| tracyanne Feb 18, 2008 12:08 PM EDT |
I trust Mandriva.Quoting:S3Indiana, I once seriously considered becoming a Linspire partner (this was before they sold out to Microsoft), I gave up on that Idea when I discovered that Linspire/Freespire are broken. I was seriously unimpressed with the way security is handled, and in fact when I did an upgrade/reinstall (one of the options available) on a system I had installed for a lady and her three children (one account each) everyone ended up with root access. There were other problems, the system was very very brittle, for example the Jack server would die at the least provocation. In the end I wiped the system and replaced it with something far more stable, and secure. I also dumped the idea of becoming a Linspire partner. |
| tuxtom Feb 18, 2008 1:09 PM EDT |
> neatly sidestepping the issue. I prefer to call it "effectively solving the cash flow problem". |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 1:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:> neatly sidestepping the issue.Well yeah.. if the dilemma actually was all about "how do I scrape up the $180 for this commercial desktop that can't play mp3s".. The thing that has always bothered me is that microsoft and apple can ship multimedia support at a somewhat reasonable cost, so why not a linux vendor? Instead of backing away from multimedia and saying "no, we can't support proprietary formats", how about some vendor step up, do the work, make the legal arrangements, and ship legal multimedia support for a reasonable extra fee? Heck, I'd pull out my wallet and vote for that. |
| tuxtom Feb 18, 2008 1:52 PM EDT |
I'm going to have to leave to the rest of you to sort out the legalities. I've been dealing with attorneys for the past 6 months over stock compensation agreements and other contracts so the amateur lawyer inside me is jaded. All I know is that I can get mp3's to play if I want them to. I don't have enough time to analyze individual vendor's legal affairs. Yes, it would be nice to get it sorted out so an average consumer could plug in and jam, but we can't all solve the world's problems. Quite frankly, for music I only use the computer to rip CD"s and "legally" (well...) downloaded torrent fodder to my 20 Gig B&W iPod where I listen to it on headphones or on my car stereo. But that's me. During working hours I just put on the smooth jazz station. It seems to make me more productive, but also shows I'm becoming an old fart. |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 2:02 PM EDT |
> I don't have enough time to analyze individual vendor's legal affairs. Yes, it would be nice to get it sorted out so an average consumer could plug in and jam, but we can't all solve the world's problems. You know what? that's OK, because nobody is asking you to solve it. but it would be great to see some linux vendors seriously work on it. As for multimedia and legalities, sure, I can do all of that stuff now, but I'd pay my vendor to empower me to do it all without any legal threats hanging over my head. Edit: actually there are vendors who seem interested in this idea. After all, SLES does ship with mp3 capability, and last time I talked to the novell folks, they claimed to be actively working on getting legal dvd playback and other multimedia capabilities though legal and diplomatic channels. |
| hkwint Feb 18, 2008 2:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:Instead of backing away from multimedia and saying "no, we can't support proprietary formats", how about some vendor step up, do the work, make the legal arrangements, and ship legal multimedia support for a reasonable extra fee? It does exist, and it WILL ship with Fedora 8 I believe (which means, Fedora will contain it's infrastructure, but not the codecs themselves; they have to be bought). Probably, a lot of people feel the same like you and me about wanting legal codecs in Linux, so this IS a really important issue. I was going to write an article about it, but stupidly didn't, and later forgot (thanks for reminding). Thank god my memory seems quite good, last time I trashed a complete volume management system all my bookmarks were gone, but I remember it's being called Fluendo. This is what (almost everybody) in the Linux community who gives about 'IP' and wants multimedia is looking for: https://shop.fluendo.com/ So there you have it. Legal multimedia codecs of all sort for Linux! For some reason the MP3 decoder IS both legal and gratis BTW, so I don't understand what all this 'Linux / free sotfware lacks MP3 because it isn't gratis' fuzz is about. Maybe people didn't know this? If mp3 support is not shipped, it's because MP3 is not a free format, not because it isn't gratis. Back on topic: Do you trust your distribution? My answer: I would if mine was OpenBSD. |
| gus3 Feb 18, 2008 2:50 PM EDT |
@jdixon:Quoting:> Their marketing efforts were pushing a product with an inferior, dangerous configuration.It isn't just a "technical viewpoint." It's the viewpoint of the end-user. After a system compromise and some major data loss, it won't be a "technical solution to a technical problem." It will be blaming "that Linux crap" for Linspire's reckless mis-management of their customers' system security, and the loss of a Linux user. We can sit here and say it's a technical issue, but that does nothing to actually make Linspire systems more secure, and our conversation here is meaningless to most Linspire users. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 3:02 PM EDT |
> If my enterprise people are swapping/playing mp3's they are NOT doing what they should be one their PCs. Your people don't listen to music while they work? Sounds rather draconian to me. > actually there are vendors who seem interested in this idea. After all, SLES does ship with mp3 capability... As far as I can remember, Slackware has had mp3 playback capability ever since I've been listening to mp3's. It looks like mp3 encoding capability is built into KDE now (at least it has the files libaudiocd_encoder_lame.so and libaudiocd_encoder_lame.la in /usr/lib/kde3) so I think it can enode mp3's too. |
| jdixon Feb 18, 2008 3:05 PM EDT |
> ...and our conversation here is meaningless to most Linspire users. Which is why my comments aren't aimed at Linspire users, who seem to be infrequent on LXer in any case. |
| tuxtom Feb 18, 2008 3:06 PM EDT |
> Their marketing efforts were pushing a product with an inferior, dangerous configuration. Most marketing efforts do. >I would if mine was OpenBSD. No one can disagree with that. Thanks for reminding me. I don't worry about my desktop so much as I do my servers. Next build. |
| herzeleid Feb 18, 2008 3:17 PM EDT |
> As far as I can remember, Slackware has had mp3 playback capability ever since I've been listening to mp3's. It looks like mp3 encoding capability is built into KDE now (at least it has the files libaudiocd_encoder_lame.so and libaudiocd_encoder_lame.la in /usr/lib/kde3) so I think it can enode mp3's too Yes, suse always included mp3 capability as long as I'd been looking at it (staring in the 8.x days) along with other niceties, but with the recent mpaa/riaa/dmca scares, a number of distros backed away from any kind of multimedia support. Now with the fluendo codec agreement, that should not be as big a deal. That's one issue, now we just need to secure the same freedoms when it comes to watching DVDs and other video formats. |
| hughesjr Feb 19, 2008 3:21 AM EDT |
>herzeleid WRT adding mp3 or any other codec ... rpmforge for RHEL, CentOS, Fedora makes it very easy to get mp3 if you really want it. These 3rd Party repositories are simple now to add to your system (see http://rpmforge.net/user/ for instructions). and someone mentioned CentOS as a free alternative for those who do not want official support. I am a CentOS developer, so I won't go on about how great it is (it is pretty darn good though ;-) ) However, if you want a long term OS with official paid support, then RHEL is just the way to go. There is 7 years of support for each version (RHEL-2.1, 3, 4, or 5 currently). You just can't get that anywhere else (with security updates). There is still a supportable version out there that is based on Red Hat 7.3 (That is RHEL-2.1). If you had some custom programmed software (that you paid 2 million dollars for and the software company went belly up ... or whatever other reason you can think of that prevents upgrading) and if that software absolutely required gcc 2.9.x and gnome 1.4 then guess what, there is an OS out there that still gets backported security updates that you can run your custom software on ... it was released on May 17, 2002 and it is fully supported until May 31, 2009. Nobody else even comes close to this (except CentOS, who rebuilds these sources that Red Hat makes available). Let me say it again ... released May 17, 2002 and still fully secure and fully supported. That is the kind of software enterprise users need to be able to plan for, not things that require major upgrades every 6 months. |
| herzeleid Feb 19, 2008 9:46 AM EDT |
@hughesjr - > WRT adding mp3 or any other codec ... rpmforge for RHEL, CentOS, Fedora makes it very easy to get mp3 if you really want it. These 3rd Party repositories are simple now to add to your system (see [HYPERLINK@rpmforge.net] for instructions). Yep, been there done that. I ran fedora and knew the drill - I was doing linux multimedia back when that meant building a kernel with the correct parameters for the soundblaster in your linux box. The problem is not the technical feasibility of enabling multimedia, the problem is why the multimedia support is not in the OS by default. Aunt Myrtle will be frightened off by the legal warnings associated with adding the multimedia repos, and that's really sad. There really needs to be a legal resolution to remove the grey areas. There's already been some good news on that front with the fluendo codecs, but we still need that sort of legal freedom for all the other types of popular multimedia. > Nobody else even comes close to this (except CentOS, who rebuilds these sources that Red Hat makes available). Really? Suse enterprise immediately springs to mind... |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 19, 2008 11:25 AM EDT |
Re: Red Hat/CentOS with seven years of support -- I have to agree that the market for it is there and should be addressed by other distros. Ubuntu is doing it with 5 years of support on the server for its LTS, and I think Debian will get close to 5 years of life for Sarge (although it would be nice to know exactly how long Sarge, and eventually Etch, will have). The Slackware team is doing a good job as well by continuing to support older releases. That's what separates these distros from ... all the others. The pure hobbyist might be content to track Debian Unstable (or Ubuntu through its 6-month cycles), but for the corporate user, the non-technical user, and all the people who want to build servers and just ... leave them be, it's important to have choice when it comes to how long they stay with a system. Re: mp3s and Red Hat/CentOS/Fedora ... it's that easy, is it? I never got far enough into CentOS to figure out just how to add repositories to get beyond the default installation, but not only could I not play mp3s, I couldn't play OGGs either. It was just easier to retreat to the relative ease of Debian and Ubuntu. |
| hughesjr Feb 19, 2008 12:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:>herzeleid Really? Suse enterprise immediately springs to mind...SLES has a 4 year normal lifetime and you can bump it to 6 years by paying extra ======================================= Quoting:> Steven_Rosenber It was just easier to retreat to the relative ease of Debian and Ubuntu.That is what I do when I hit a snag on Debian / Ubuntu (retreat back to the relative ease of CentOS) ... :) So, it just depends on what one is comfortable with. |
| herzeleid Feb 19, 2008 1:09 PM EDT |
> SLES has a 4 year normal lifetime and you can bump it to 6 years by paying extra Care to provide a URL to substantiate that lowball figure? I'm on the SLES web page and that's not what I'm seeing. |
| jdixon Feb 19, 2008 1:19 PM EDT |
> Care to provide a URL to substantiate that lowball figure? Novell says a minimum of 5 years with a minimum of 2 years of extended support. http://support.novell.com/lifecycle/ |
| herzeleid Feb 19, 2008 1:25 PM EDT |
> Novell says a minimum of 5 years with a minimum of 2 years of extended support. Right, so with SLES you get a minimum of 7 years support - 5 years general support and a minimum of 2 years extended support, at no extra cost. Come on guys, I'm all for a little friendly competition between distros, but lets try to keep it factual! I'm more than a little curious about that "self support" option which is available for a minimum of 10 years. Sounds like just the ticket for some of the mom and pop businesses I work with... |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 19, 2008 1:34 PM EDT |
Don't get me wrong: My hardware really likes CentOS 5. It's the rest of me that is partial to Debian ... |
| ColonelPanik Feb 19, 2008 5:48 PM EDT |
Steven_Rosenber, Yup, PCLOS is only on the lappy because Debian doesn't like the hardware. Maybe the next one will run Debian. Right now I don't know enough to make Debian work, but some day... |
| hughesjr Feb 20, 2008 5:12 AM EDT |
Quoting:>herzeleid Novell says a minimum of 5 years with a minimum of 2 years of extended support. First: extended support is NOT free (even with a subscription for that product): http://support.novell.com/lifecycle/faq.html#extsupport Second: The date that SLES 10 passes into extended support is "31 Jul 2011" http://support.novell.com/lifecycle/lcSearchResults.jsp?st=-... I thought that SLES was released in July 2007, so that is 4 years ...HOWEVER... Upon further review, I see SLES 10 was really released in July 2006 (which is 5 years, so my appoligies). I don't make this stuff up :D So, SLES has 5 years of general support (with a normal subscription) and you can obtain extended support at an extra cost. That is good, and it is certainly better than the standard Linux distros for the enterprise. Certainly SLES and RHEL are the major "PAY FOR" players in Enterprise Linux. Now if the whole Novell-Microsoft thing did not exist, I might actually use SLES. Also good is the 5 years that Ubuntu LTS does, though we need to actually see Ubuntu's LTS in practice to see what it really looks like in 5 years (and how many things have been upgraded, breaking original APIs/ABIs, etc.) |
| hughesjr Feb 20, 2008 5:24 AM EDT |
also to clarify the SLES "extended support" policy (in case the link is not clicked):Quoting:Novell's extended support programs are intended to assist customers with longer range migration plans and is not intended to be a long term support solution for customers who plan to stay on outdated products. SO, they do NOT want you to go past 5 years, and the support you get is to help you go their next product |
| jdixon Feb 20, 2008 6:02 AM EDT |
> Certainly SLES and RHEL are the major "PAY FOR" players in Enterprise Linux. Yep. Now, for companies which choose to provide their own support, I'd recommend either CentOS, Debian Stable, or Slackware (in no particular order, though I think everyone here knows my preferred distro by now). |
| DarrenR114 Feb 20, 2008 7:40 AM EDT |
Linux From Scratch (*after* I build the sources, using a compiler that *I* built from string the 1s and 0s together by hand.) YSR - if you believe I go that far, I have a bit of land in Antarctica I can sell you. Waterfront property no less (ice *is* frozen after all.) |
| herzeleid Feb 20, 2008 7:49 AM EDT |
> First: extended support is NOT free (even with a subscription for that product): Nobody said linux support from a vendor was free. Are you saying that redhat support is free? Come on, stop twisting things. There are no extra fees associated with extended support, the cost is the same as for general support. However, if you've gone into the extended support phase, you really should be looking at the upgrade roadmap. Even our dinosaur legacy unix boxes were on a 5 year upgrade cycle. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 20, 2008 9:30 AM EDT |
With Red Hat, you pay by the year ... |
| gus3 Feb 20, 2008 9:48 AM EDT |
With Slackware, you can buy support, or you can learn to do it yourself. In the case of the latter, it's more of an investment than a purchase. |
| herzeleid Feb 20, 2008 9:51 AM EDT |
> With Red Hat, you pay by the year ... Yep, same with Novell - > With Slackware, you can buy support, or you can learn to do it yourself. In the case of the latter, it's more of an investment than a purchase. Yep, same with Novell - but the fortune 100 companies really do want that 1-800 number and the warm fuzzies of a "support agreement" - |
| tuxtom Feb 20, 2008 10:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:- but the fortune 100 companies really do want that 1-800 number and the warm fuzzies of a "support agreement" - I don't think it's so much that in that they don't want to take responsibility themselves (CTO's, etc.) and want someone else to blame when something goes wrong. |
| herzeleid Feb 20, 2008 10:33 AM EDT |
> I don't think it's so much that in that they don't want to take responsibility themselves (CTO's, etc.) and want someone else to blame when something goes wrong. absolutely, "a neck to choke" and all that... |
| dinotrac Feb 20, 2008 10:39 AM EDT |
tuxtom and herzleid -- Perversely, I think that changes in the wake of Enron (Sarbanes-Oxley, yech!!!!) have contributed to that. Must identify risks, y'know. |
| hughesjr Feb 20, 2008 10:42 AM EDT |
Quoting:Extended support is a fee-based service available after the General Support period and includes Novell's self help options as well as fee-based support direct from Novell Technical Services. That CERTAINLY sounds like you need to pay for more than just that standard subscription fee for extended support ... I did not write this stuff. If you do not have to pay additionally for extended support that needs to be reworded. |
| hughesjr Feb 20, 2008 10:48 AM EDT |
herzeleid: I am saying that if I pay my yearly fee for 7 years ... I get the exact same level of support and software for 7 years, yes. That is not how I read what extended support (the last 2 years) of SLES does. Maybe I am wrong, but that is certainly not what it says ... is says: Quoting:Extended support is a fee-based service available after the General Support period and includes Novell's self help options as well as fee-based support direct from Novell Technical Services. Novell's extended support programs are intended to assist customers with longer range migration plans and is not intended to be a long term support solution for customers who plan to stay on outdated products. I am supposed to read that to mean that I get exactly the same support for exactly the same price in years 6 and 7 that I do for years 1-5 ??? If that is the case, then they need a new wordsmith :D |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 20, 2008 11:07 AM EDT |
There's paid support for Slackware? I had no idea. The fact that they continue patching so many different releases of Slack is a great thing -- it's one of the biggest attractions of going with Slackware. |
| herzeleid Feb 20, 2008 11:09 AM EDT |
@ hughesjr - > I am supposed to read that to mean that I get exactly the same support for exactly the same price in years 6 and 7 that I do for years 1-5 ??? The novell guy told me there is no price difference, but the extended support is done by a different team, with a different emphasis, e.g. "is there anything we can do to help you get upgraded off of that old version?" > If that is the case, then they need a new wordsmith :D That may well be... |
| jdixon Feb 20, 2008 12:52 PM EDT |
> There's paid support for Slackware? Yes, but you have to look for it. See http://www.slackware.com/support/ for a list of some companies who offer Slackware support. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 20, 2008 1:23 PM EDT |
Sorry to gush, but there are just so damn many FOSS projects out there that are so excellent, with Debian and Slackware ranking very highly among them. We're very lucky, indeed. Gushing will now suspend ... |
| tuxtom Feb 20, 2008 2:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:We're very lucky, indeed. That sentiment intensifies within me with each passing day of my life. |
| gus3 Feb 20, 2008 9:39 PM EDT |
I trust Slackware. Especially with my proposed bug fix getting into the latest -current update. ;-p /gush-off |
| tuxtom Feb 20, 2008 10:24 PM EDT |
gus, I inherited a couple Slackware servers last year. 11...upgraded the backup to 12. I will never use anything else for a server again if I have my say-so in the situation. That's gotta feel good getting your fix. I felt the same gush when my employer's attorneys insisted that my name be on the patent application as an inventor. Good resume fodder. |
| gus3 Feb 20, 2008 10:57 PM EDT |
Yes, it feels very good, especially after a major blooper a couple years ago. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 21, 2008 8:18 AM EDT |
Do you guys with Slack boxes use updatepkg, slapt-get or ?? for patches |
| tuxtom Feb 21, 2008 9:27 AM EDT |
Steven. I'm lazy so I don't really keep an eye on patches like I should...it would be prudent for me to do so, I admit. I also compile my entire application stack from source, eschewing the distro's, except for sshd, which I have a whole lotta perl processes monitoring and messing with the script kiddies' minds. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 21, 2008 9:34 AM EDT |
One of the guys I work with loves MS but he is not completely blind, anyway, we were talking the other day and got on to the subject of viruses. His big thing was that no matter how safe Linux is, there are still viruses. So I asked him, how many known exploits are there for Linux? Can you name any? Even one? HAH! I told him, "You have fun managing two to three anti-virus programs and adware sniffers, me? I'm going to go home and use my computer.." :-) |
| tuxtom Feb 21, 2008 9:49 AM EDT |
Scott, from what I know, most of the anti-virus stuff that runs on Linux is meant to scan for Windows viruses that may be passed along to Windows clients. I find that hilarious. It pisses me off to no end that yahoo mail, which I have used for years, insists on scanning every single file attachment...even images...and forces me to go through a three-step process to see these attachments. (Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find an option to turn this off.) Yahoo knows I'm a Linux client, yet forces a scan on my files to prevent the spread of Windows virii. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 21, 2008 9:54 AM EDT |
Don't feel to bad, g-mail does the same thing but at least they scan it as I am opening it and it is just one click to download it. I hardly even notice it. I have not used Yahoo mail in some time so I am unfamiliar with their process. |
| tuxtom Feb 21, 2008 10:13 AM EDT |
gmail is much better and I have had an account since 2004 but haven't used it. In contrast, I have had my yahoo mail account since 1998 or '99. A major annoyance of mine is people who keep changing their email address. I have had yahoo for so long everyone knows it and uses it...even long, lost friends. I also use several different forwarded accounts with it. Now, my dilemma is that I need to pay for the $20/year yahoo mail plus to forward my yahoo mail to my gmail. Seems like a small price, but I have a mental block on the whole situation right now. I really dislike logging into separate accounts to view emails (with the exception of work), so I have just stuck with the Yahoo interface. It's my own neurosis. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 21, 2008 10:21 AM EDT |
> (Sarbanes-Oxley, yech!!!!) I actually like it when Dino and I can agree on something unreservedly. Do I trust "Debian"? Yes. I trust Debian Unstable to continue to make my life interesting. With a "real" distribution, I would have stability. Predictability. Dullness. I didn't do an update for a month, while the KDE3-KDE4 thing was ironing itself out. Such is life, I guess. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 21, 2008 10:23 AM EDT |
I have been using g-mail since 05 and in that time my storage has gone from 2gigs to 6.5gigs and my maximum file size to attach has gone from 10megs to 20megs. I love it. |
| tuxtom Feb 21, 2008 10:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:I didn't do an update for a month, while the KDE3-KDE4 thing was ironing itself out. I tried KDE4 and wasn't terribly impressed (I'm a KDE guy). Sure, some of the eye candy is smooth and sweet, but it disrupted my workflow and the start menu was cumbersome for me. The experience was very Vista-esque. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 21, 2008 12:00 PM EDT |
> and the start menu was cumbersome for me. I abhor the new KDE4 start-menu style. If it cannot be reverted to its present state, I'm going to use XFCE instead. |
| herzeleid Feb 21, 2008 12:07 PM EDT |
@tuxtom - > I tried KDE4 and wasn't terribly impressed (I'm a KDE guy). Sure, some of the eye candy is smooth and sweet, but it disrupted my workflow and the start menu was cumbersome for me. The experience was very Vista-esque. Too soon to tell on kde4 - I'm a kde guy for the most part and I've been fairly happy with kde3. kde4 has potential, and I understand the code reorg needed to be done from a maintenance standpoint, but from a user perspective it's really just too raw at this point for any practical use. Give it time though - as the various apps and applets get ported to the new code base, and the bugs get squashed it will hopefully become clearly superior to kde3. I'm guessing that in the 4.1.x time frame it will be time for a serious look. |
| tracyanne Feb 21, 2008 12:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:I abhor the new KDE4 start-menu style. Same here, not sure what I'll do though. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 21, 2008 12:37 PM EDT |
> but from a user perspective it's really just too raw at this point for any practical use. Indeed. The Debian KDE maintainers have stated that there will not be KDE4 in this, nor the next, stable release. But the KDE4 libraries are already migrating from experimental to unstable, and from what I've gleaned those applications already using KDE4 will coexist just fine, as GNOME and KDE apps already do. |
| hkwint Feb 21, 2008 12:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:It pisses me off to no end that yahoo mail, which I have used for years, insists on scanning every single file attachment. OK, you want to have a good laugh, what about this: I lost my Paypal password, account blocked, OK, I'm stupid, I'm the one to blame and willing to take all the blame, no problem. I call Paypal, explain how stupid I am, and need the account to be reset. "That's OK", they tell me, "Fax your passport along with code nr. xxxx". "That's a problem" is my answer, "I don't have the ability to use a fax over here. Can't I scan and mail it?" "No, we are not allowed to open attachments", they tell me, "because they might contain virusses. You can send it by post however." We're talking about a 'decent' IT-company who's infrastructure _depends_ on thousands of Linux boxes, but sounds like their desktops use Windows. Not even competent enough to open attachments... They should be embarrassed! |
| tuxtom Feb 21, 2008 2:36 PM EDT |
Business in this country astounds me. I've heard that so many times..."our system won't let us do that". Well, I'd like to take your CTO for a little drive out in the country. It's amazing we even have an economy sometimes. If you're smart and get into these organizations the culture of stupidity chases you right back out. It's getting worse and worse all over...Dubya syndrome? |
| jdixon Feb 21, 2008 3:41 PM EDT |
> Do you guys with Slack boxes use updatepkg, slapt-get or ?? for patches I subscribe to the security mailing list, then download and install the updates manually. However, if you're running Slackware as a desktop system the only security updates you really need to worry about are those that fix remote exploits. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 21, 2008 4:26 PM EDT |
jdixon, I followed along with the security patches (using upgradepkg) for awhile, but when I did a hard drive install of Wolvix (based on Slackware 11) and tried Gslapt, it was so Synaptically easy that I wondered why anybody would do it any other way. Mind you, I didn't install anything new; I'm not sure how well slapt-get/Gslapt handles dependencies ... and since Wolvix Hunter has everything I need, I didn't really have to add any software ... But the one thing about Slackware is that once you get behind on the patches, it can be a real ordeal to get the thing up to date. |
| jdixon Feb 21, 2008 5:29 PM EDT |
> But the one thing about Slackware is that once you get behind on the patches, it can be a real ordeal to get the thing up to date. I don't see that it's that difficult. My procedure would be: Use gftp to go to download the current patches from one of the mirrors (by my count, there are currently 33 for Slackware 12), go to single user mode, cd to the download directory, run upgradepkg *, then either reboot (if you installed a new kernel) or return to your normal runlevel. If you already have some patches installed, gftp lets you compare a local and remote directory, so it's easy to identify what you've already downloaded and what you haven't. |
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