Well... OpenOffice Writer has been free for a while now...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| hiohoaus Feb 19, 2008 1:02 AM EDT |
...& while it’s no DreamWeaver, it does make acceptable web pages pretty much off the mark (which MS-Word really struggles to do for AUD$300 or so more). |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 1:35 AM EDT |
You really do miss the point. Microsoft has some very very good developer tools, and Microsoft Word has nothing to do with it. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 19, 2008 2:44 AM EDT |
Yeah. MS's developer tools are probably the only half-decent software ever to come out of Redmond. If you like big, integrated IDEs with all the bells and whistles then you'll love Visual Studio + tools. It beats Eclipse hands down. Personally, I don't like IDE's though. Give me a decent text editor and a commandline every day :-) |
| jacog Feb 19, 2008 3:02 AM EDT |
I'm with you on the last point, Sander. I have to work with VS every day, and yes it has many features built in to ease your coding, but there are so many features I wish it didn't have that I sometimes just use an external text editor instead. Either way... Microsoft does have the right idea. If you rope in developers, then it will cascade down into projects actually using their solutions. As the guy said: "duh-veh-lo-pers... duh-veh-lo-pers... duh-veh-lo-pers... duh*wheeeze*veh-lo-pers... duh-veh-lo-pers... duh-veh-lo-pers... *drip drip* duh-veh-lo-pers..." |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 3:34 AM EDT |
Quoting:Yeah. MS's developer tools are probably the only half-decent software ever to come out of Redmond. If you like big, integrated IDEs with all the bells and whistles then you'll love Visual Studio + tools. It beats Eclipse hands down. It sure as hell does. It frees me to work on the interesting stuff, the stuff that is the point of writing all that code in the first place. Quoting:Give me a decent text editor and a commandline every day :-) You're welcome to to it, although I find it quite useful for small stuff too. |
| jezuch Feb 19, 2008 5:37 AM EDT |
Quoting:Give me a decent text editor and a commandline every day :-) I understand the sentiment, but I can't live without autocompletion (it writes half of my code and it has to be *smart*) and instant error markers (and it has to be *instant*). To do that, the editor needs to integrate a full blown compiler. That already makes it an IDE ;) And if it has a debugger in the same place, it can only be good. Oh, and a profiler would be nice, too ;) |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 19, 2008 6:30 AM EDT |
I do a lot of PHP development and I tried Zend once. All I can say is "poo". Well, perhaps "annoying poo". Currently I'm sticking with Kate. I like Bluefish a lot as well, but it's just a tad too slow with it's syntax highlighting for my taste. Aside from that I've used Screem (nice, but had one very annoying bug that made it useless for me), MS-Visual Studio 6 (nice, but I always felt like MS and not me was in control of my project), Anjuta (Not bad but it can mess up your build system), Dreamweaver (too integrated for my taste) and a whole host of text editors. For the rest I use external tools. Tidy to fix other people's HTML junk. Valgrind for finding memory leaks. GDB for debugging. I debug PHP either directly in the browser/on the server or I use automated unit tests (PHPUnit is nice). |
| techiem2 Feb 19, 2008 8:25 AM EDT |
Well, I don't do anything in the way of actual programming, but for the bit of perl and php scripting I do my preferred environment is midnight commander. :) |
| gus3 Feb 19, 2008 8:54 AM EDT |
Bash and vim here. |
| DarrenR114 Feb 19, 2008 10:48 AM EDT |
I'm with gus3 on this one. |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 10:50 AM EDT |
As a web developer, I've been on Quanta+ for quite awhile now on the desktop. It has auto-completion for closing HTML tags, which is is a double-edged sword at times. I've also used Kate and Bluefish and Screem. Aptana is promising, but heavy. I used it for a couple months. I never really got a mental hook into IDE development. VS is the king there, but IDEs hide too much code and show too many superfluous features for my mind. Then again, I've been working on smaller, complex projects. If I were in a real big shop my habits would likely change. I spend good chunks of time in ssh sessions, so vim in bash are always daily tools for me. syntax on, baby! |
| tuxchick Feb 19, 2008 10:53 AM EDT |
Sissies. Raw assembler for everything, and manual toggles for binary. |
| jdixon Feb 19, 2008 10:55 AM EDT |
> Raw assembler for everything... Only if we're talking the MC6809 in my case. The best 8 bit processor ever made. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 11:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:As a web developer, I've been on Quanta+ for quite awhile now on the desktop. It has auto-completion for closing HTML tags, which is is a double-edged sword at times. I've also used Kate and Bluefish and Screem. Aptana is promising, but heavy. I used it for a couple months. I never really got a mental hook into IDE development. VS is the king there, but IDEs hide too much code and show too many superfluous features for my mind. Then again, I've been working on smaller, complex projects. If I were in a real big shop my habits would likely change. Of the tools mentioned only Visual Studio really makes the grade. Remember there are just the two of us, and we support 2 of the largest Companies in the Fitness industry (one in the US and one in the UK), in addition we take on smaller projects. We couldn't do that without Visual Studio. The only problem I have with VS is that I can't use it or a tool like it on Linux to develop for Linux OSs, and I've come across nothing on Linux that gives me the ability to be as productive. |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 12:09 PM EDT |
>> Of the tools mentioned only Visual Studio really makes the grade. ...for your specific needs as a Microsoft developer. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 12:15 PM EDT |
Quoting: ...for your specific needs as a Microsoft developer. A tool like that would make me just as productive as a Linux developer. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 12:18 PM EDT |
And I would ahppily pay a lot of money for such a tool. |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 1:38 PM EDT |
Quoting:And I would happily pay a lot of money for such a tool. There very well may be commercial offerings that could accommodate you on Linux/Unix. I think we have all been discussing FOSS exclusively up to this point, with the exception of VS (and Zend for PHP). Of course, they wouldn't be "identical" to VS and you would have to make some adjustments to your work habits. Change is awkward...I get lots of "Command not found" messages when I get in a Windows shell, as I start cussing under my breath. 8^) I'm still confused as to what you want to accomplish, though. In a previous thread you mentioned that you didn't have time to learn other technologies unless it was at work, and I think we beat that economic horse enough already. I'm not sure if you want to develop Linux desktop apps with C#/C++/Java in an IDE you are comfortable with or if you want to develop Windows apps on a Linux workstation. I haven't tried it myself, but I'm pretty sure VS would not work too well with WINE. Alas, one cannot do everything. I've devoted myself to LAMP web development and Linux server administration and my choice of tools reflects it. |
| GDStewart Feb 19, 2008 2:10 PM EDT |
Only if we're talking the MC6809 in my case. The best 8 bit processor ever made. Ummm, OS9 ! |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 2:34 PM EDT |
Quoting:. I'm not sure if you want to develop Linux desktop apps with C#/C++/Java in an IDE you Web applications on Linux for Linux. Desktop application on Linux for Linux. I can already develop windows applications for Windows, I do that every day. I came to Linux from from Mainframes and COBOL via DOS and Windows (Pascal, VB5 and 6, and .NET). I have been searching for the last 6 years for tools that are anything like what I've used before. Even compared to tools I used on the Wangs, most of the Linux tools seems either primitive, incomplete or do things in obscure ways, often all of the above. Quoting:Alas, one cannot do everything. I've devoted myself to LAMP web development and Linux server administration and my choice of tools reflects it. Well good for you. This is of course the sort of elitist sh_t I'm quite used to. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 19, 2008 2:40 PM EDT |
tracyanne: WingIDE is supposed to be a superb Python IDE: http://www.wingware.com/ Combine that with Glade3 for GUI design and I think you can't loose. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 2:52 PM EDT |
Thanks Sander I'll check it out. It looks very interesting, I'll download the trial at lunchtime |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 3:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:This is of course the sort of elitist sh-t I'm quite used to. I think you need to take a good long look in the mirror and say that. I was only indicating that I had not explored commercial IDE offerings and that my experience with such tools is limited to the humble ones I mentioned. VS this and VS that and nothing else even comes close and "only VS makes the grade". "...most of the Linux tools seems either primitive, incomplete or do things in obscure ways, often all of the above." That isn't elitist? Quite frankly, and with all due respect for how long you have been around here, you sound like a bitter Microsoft troll. Maybe Linux isn't your thing. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 3:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think you need to take a good long look in the mirror and say that. I'm prepared to be wrong, I'd like to be proved wrong. Sander may have done that. On the other hand burying ones head in the sand about the quality of Microsoft tools won't do you any good. |
| jdixon Feb 19, 2008 3:25 PM EDT |
>Ummm, OS9 ! Yep. My first exposure to a Unix like operating system. Real time, multi-user, multitasking in 64KB. :) > There very well may be commercial offerings that could accommodate you on Linux/Unix. There may very well be. Though none appear complete, partial lists of IDE's for Linux (including some commercial ones) can be found at the following locations: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Devtools/ides.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_integrated_devel... http://linuxappfinder.com/development/integrateddevelopmente... http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Integrated_Development_E... Not being a programmer, I can't speak to any of them. |
| jdixon Feb 19, 2008 3:28 PM EDT |
> I haven't tried it myself, but I'm pretty sure VS would not work too well with WINE. The Wine compatibility database confirms your suspicions. :( |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 3:52 PM EDT |
tracyanne, i'm not burying my head in the sand, and as much as I'd like to retract my last two sentences, I cannot in good conscience bring myself to do it. I have used VS. It is a killer app. I have not seen anyone here denegrate the quality of Visual Studio. But persisitently complaining about the quality of FOSS tools and making incessant comparisons to VS isn't really going to accomplish anything productive...it isn't going to gain you any converts or get FOSS VS clone developed any sooner. My suggestion is that you take your argument to Microsoft and let them know just how much you want to use their product on another platform. That is the fastest way to get you from where you are now to where you want to be. They have the money, resources and know-how to do it. FOSS will never catch up to your expectations. Like it or not, your standards are set by Microsoft, while most of us are quite happy with what FOSS already offers. Can it improve? Hell yes. But it will improve by FOSS standards, not Microsoft's, no matter how "quality" their tools are on their own platform. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 5:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:But persisitently complaining about the quality of FOSS tools and making incessant comparisons to VS isn't really going to accomplish anything productive. It has. I might have the tool I'm looking for In addition, it might get one or more FOSS tool developers to take a look at what's available, what's being asked for, and scratch that itch. Quoting:They have the money, resources and know-how to do it. FOSS will never catch up to your expectations. That's a terrible indictment of FOSS, i actually believe better of FOSS than that. I think it can, and must. There are lots of way more skilled developers than myself doing FOSS tools, who could with the right backing, Mono Develop is an example of what can be done when that backing happens. The ASPNetAddin is thanks to a very small amount of backing from Google's Summer of Code, the thing is Google doesn't seem willing to do enough to make it work, and nor do any other big Linux/FOSS users. |
| tuxchick Feb 19, 2008 5:25 PM EDT |
What about Qt, or is it not analogous to VS? Unlike VS, it's cross-platform and clean, rather than another tool of MS lockin and lard. |
| rijelkentaurus Feb 19, 2008 5:36 PM EDT |
Quoting: It has. I might have the tool I'm looking for And the winner is.......?? |
| jdixon Feb 19, 2008 5:57 PM EDT |
> What about Qt, or is it not analogous to VS? As I understand it, qt is really just a tookit, TC, not a full IDE. It's primarily a set of libraries which you can use to develop for both Linux and Windows. Slackware calls qt "a multi-platform C++ graphical user interface toolkit". |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 7:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:That's a terrible indictment of FOSS You've been collecting and presenting the evidence, my dear. Very adamantly, I might add. |
| gus3 Feb 19, 2008 9:09 PM EDT |
My problem isn't with Visual Studio in itself. My problem is that VS gives you a hard row to hoe if you deviate from a MS-only toolchain, from the platform (well duh) to the language to the build system to the compiler to the linker and back to the platform again. Throw in the proprietary documentation formats, and the undocumented API's, and I'm not interested. That said, if you stay within the boundaries MS places on you, you can do some slick stuff. Just not nearly as slick as MS's own devs. |
| tracyanne Feb 19, 2008 10:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:You've been collecting and presenting the evidence, my dear. Very adamantly, I might add. It wasn't I who said. Quoting:FOSS will never catch up to your expectations. Like it or not, your standards are set by Microsoft, while most of us are quite happy with what FOSS already offers. On the other hand if you are happy for FOSS to be second rate, I guess it's good enough. I personally think it's capable of much greater things, and yes my expectations are high. I've seen what it capable of when even a little money is spent, it's just a pitty there's no on going investment. Quoting:Throw in the proprietary documentation formats, and the undocumented API's, and I'm not interested. You completely miss the point. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 19, 2008 10:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:What about Qt, or is it not analogous to VS? Not at all. Qt is a library. VS is an IDE. To make a rather crude analogy to the world wide web: Qt is your browser (like FireFox). Visual Studio is your HTML editor. Quoting:It has. I might have the tool I'm looking for WingIDE? Quoting:In addition, it might get one or more FOSS tool developers to take a look at what's available, what's being asked for, and scratch that itch. You mentioned that you're willing to pay so perhaps setting bounties is the way to go. I'm sure other people would want to chip in as well for certain functions. What you need then is an application that can be improved in order to become your perfect IDE. If it's C/C++ you want then Anjuta might be a good base. My main complaint about Anjuta is how it handles the GNU autotools for a build system. It's a bit VS-like. It works well as long as you don't go off the path set out for you by the IDE. Try to do something the non-Anjuta way and you're looking at a broken build system that you need to fix manually. And that's not easy. |
| tuxtom Feb 19, 2008 11:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:I've seen what it capable of when even a little money is spent, it's just a pitty there's no on going investment. I have a PayPal account. |
| gus3 Feb 19, 2008 11:07 PM EDT |
@tracyanne:Quoting:You completely miss the point.Not really. I'm just throwing in my $0.02, that may spur some thought in someone else, to clarify what they might be trying to say. (And please don't ask about my time as a VS-using dev. It's a time I'd rather forget, overall...) |
| krisum Feb 20, 2008 1:03 AM EDT |
@Sander
Quoting: If you like big, integrated IDEs with all the bells and whistles then you'll love Visual Studio + tools. It beats Eclipse hands down.In my experience Eclipse beats VS in terms of code browsing and keyboard shortcuts. I have not used the two for GUIs or web development so cannot say about those but for coding purpose I find eclipse to be much better. |
| rijelkentaurus Feb 20, 2008 3:43 AM EDT |
Quoting: WingIDE? That was my guess, too. C'mon, tracyanne, spill the beans, the suspense is killing me!!! (The reason being, I know several people who use and like VS just as much as you, and if there is a Linux-based IDE that impresses you, I figure it might impress them.) |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 20, 2008 5:00 AM EDT |
rijelkentaurus: You should rememeber that WingIDE is a Python IDE, not a general purpose or C/C++ IDE like Visual Studio is. That said, Python + Glade3 is a great way of quickly building Linux GUI applications. |
| DarrenR114 Feb 20, 2008 7:36 AM EDT |
GUIs are for WIMPS. (Windows Icons Menus Panels Skels) Gooey Wimpy Users - don't get stuck on me. |
| tracyanne Feb 20, 2008 12:18 PM EDT |
@Sander, Wing IDE looks pretty good, I haven't had a chance to do anything much with the trial version yet, but it seems to all or most of the functionality that I'm looking for, which means I can concentrate on what the code does rather than where everything is and how to get at it. It also has a built in graphical debugger, code completion, and intellisense. I better run out and get a book on Python programming. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 20, 2008 1:29 PM EDT |
@tracyanne: Python has excellent online documentation: http://docs.python.org/ Start with the tutorial (you should fly through it if you have previous programming experience) http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html and then dig into the standard library http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html It's pretty good stuff (though not as good as PHP's online manual. That's just one of the best pieces of documentation I've ever used. The large amount of user comments in the PHP manual are worth their weight in gold). |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 20, 2008 1:36 PM EDT |
Time to learn PHP, Python, Java, MySQL, Ajax. ... I need to spend less time worrying about operating systems and more time worrying about stuff that'll keep me employed (especially with the journalism biz sinking into oblivion). |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 20, 2008 2:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:PHP, Python, Java Pick one. Don't try to learn all three. That's a waste of time. To sum them up really quickly: PHP: Very good for web applications. Moderately useful for CLI tools/applications. Powerful but a bit messy. Python: Great all-round language. Good for web, CLI and GUI apps. Not very widely used in businesses yet but growing really fast. Java: A must-have for big enterprise. Pretty well all round but GUI intergration sucks. I get the feeling many Java people are learning Python these days (for new projects). |
| tuxtom Feb 20, 2008 2:35 PM EDT |
Python is more popular than Ruby, but I would venture to say that it will remain a niche, albeit an important one. Solid RDBMS skills are a must no matter what. You absolutely cannot get enough of that under your belt no matter what technologies you develop with. |
| tracyanne Feb 20, 2008 5:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Solid RDBMS skills are a must no matter what. I couldn't agree more. That has always carried the day for me, and the amount of really poorly designed databases I've seen being used in critical business applications astounds me. Sometime, it seems to me, that any person who can cobble together some code thinks that great database design is a few poorly normalised tables thrown together in a database. |
| tuxtom Feb 20, 2008 5:25 PM EDT |
You can go overboard with n'th levels of normalization (a trait I have to keep myself in check on), but you are right that many people don't have a clue...everything 'this' in one huge table, everything 'that' in another. Massive duplication, huge amounts of superfluous, unvalidated text identifiers and not the slightest idea what a lookup table is. All unindexed. Whoopie!!! Fun stuff. At least we're getting paid to sort it out (hopefully). |
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