you tell 'em!
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick May 11, 2009 3:35 PM EDT |
Ken is darn near a poet. |
| azerthoth May 11, 2009 4:27 PM EDT |
too funny, I had just been hammering a guy on IRC about the very thing. I finally bowed out to his superior thickness and then found kens article waiting for me here. +1 for Helios |
| caitlyn May 11, 2009 4:30 PM EDT |
Actually Ken is anything but a poet. For the sake of the Linux community I wish he'd just shut up. Calling people "idiot", as Ken himself acknowledges, does nothing but offend. It won't convince people to leave Windows. It will convince people that the Linux community is full of slef-righteous, overbearing, obnoxious zealots. The fact is that such people are a tiny percentage of the overall Linux community but they are loud and very, very visible. They do real harm to Linux adoption. Many people don't choose to run Windows. It's what their employer or their school demands. Sometimes it's the only OS that will run the software that they need as Steven Rosenberg eloquently pointed out in another thread yesterday. For many it's what came on their computer and they have neither the skills nor the time to learn how to install something else successfully. It's what they know and the unknown is always frightening to people. There is a right way to do Linux advocacy and a wrong way to do it. In your face confrontation is the wrong way. It's seems to be what Helios/Ken thrives on which is why he and I have been at odds before. Like I said, it does more harm than good. |
| helios May 11, 2009 4:52 PM EDT |
But Caytlin, I am too a poet: Roses are red Violets are blue Caitlyn hates Ken But I don't really give a cr@p. I didn't say I was a good poet. For many it's what came on their computer and they have neither the skills nor the time to learn how to install something else successfully Caitlyn, I have sat down with 10 and 12 year old kids and they've picked up Linux in less than an hour. That includes sudo apt-get install foo. That includes figuring out how to save a Writer document as any one of many flavors of the .doc format They love it. What you should have said is that many people are generally scared to death of their computers and are mentally lazy...it's not that it's hard, it's because they simply can't stand the thought of learning something new. If they are unwilling to sacrifice their time in alleviating the problem, I am simply advocating that we not enable them by fixing their goofed-up computers. Let them pay for it, not harass their techie friends every few months because their myspace trips have them infected. tough love? Yeah. You want to see the emails I've gotten in the last 5 hours? At least a couple hundred techies applauding this tact, the majority of them saying they adopt that stance today. To my entire point. I want you to justify the use of all the time they spend learning how to use their anti virus software et al. I want you to justify the cost, the time and the headaches of paying for or using the same problematic software when they know they have an alternative. I acknowledged and understand that many have to use it at work...you missed that? You simply don't like confrontation Caitlyn...that would be my guess. I've migrated 8 computer users to Linux last week alone and have spent much of my evenings on the phone with them to help with stuff they run across that they didn't understand. That was when we weren't out doing HeliOS Project installs. I didn't call anyone an idiot Caitlyn. I gave them a problem-set and let them come to their own conclusions. You don't like my methods or bedside manner, that's fine...I don't like people who stay snuggly in their own environment and never venture out to aid those who need it the most. If you run across anyone like that Caitlyn, remind them that there are people out there that need their help. |
| caitlyn May 11, 2009 4:59 PM EDT |
I don't hate you Ken. Not at all. I don't like your methodology. There is a huge difference between that and hate. Try to remember that we share the same goals. Our disagreement is in how we reach those goals. What you should have said is that many people are generally scared to death of their computers and are mentally lazy... That describes some Windows users but it certainly doesn't describe many. It probably doesn't describe most of them. Here is the part of my previous post which you are ignoring: "It's what their employer or their school demands. Sometimes it's the only OS that will run the software that they need as Steven Rosenberg eloquently pointed out in another thread yesterday." In those situations Windows is not a choice. It is a necessity. You say you didn't call anyone an idiot. I accept that you didn't mean to do so. However, read what you wrote again and try to understand how many Windows users would take your post to mean exactly that. |
| bigg May 11, 2009 5:14 PM EDT |
I hate everyone, including myself. If my employer forced me to use Windows on my home computer, I'd run it in a virtual machine, and only do what needs to be done from there. "I need software for work" is no excuse. There's no reason to leave the front door open all night just because the UPS guy is making a delivery in the morning. Let him ring the doorbell, take your package, and then lock the door again. |
| herzeleid May 11, 2009 5:29 PM EDT |
IMHO very few people are actually forced to accept positions where they are compelled to use ms windows. One point I've taken care to make clear during every job interview I've had in the past 14 years, is that I use the best tools available and that means I use Linux as my primary OS. If the other side balks at that, that job is not for me. During that period of time, I've turned down some jobs, and accepted others, but the bottom line is that I've remained fully employed. There's always a choice. How bad do you want it? |
| jsusanka May 11, 2009 5:31 PM EDT |
I totally agree with Ken. If you slam your finger in the drawer once and do it again over and over then you are an idiot. That is how I came across Linux. I got sick of doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in windows. after I dumped windows 95 I never went back. to this day they still do things in xp and vista I hear that they had to do in 95 and windows 3.11 - it is all still dos. linux isn't going anywhere and eventually people will get a clue. It just takes some longer than others. but I totally understand where ken is coming from I don't work on people's windows machines anymore. I just tell them about linux and give them a ubuntu cd and say that I would be glad to install it for you but I am not going to work on windows anymore. I am not being an elitist or anything I just think life is too short and I don't have time to straighten out an os that a multi billion dollar company refuses to do. so ken you are a poet anyway I have been going through a teaching experience lately if you go to this website http://www.ctkstl.com/schoolvol.html and click on more after each club or subject it is suppose to expand according to the web site technical expert. But I have used firefox on windows xp, linux, sun solaris and cannot get the thing to expand. does anybody know what they are doing there with the more and why firefox can't expand it. I just use drupal or plone to build my web sites so I avoid code whenever I can. I am trying to get my parish to use a content management system and then the principal or pastor can approve content and we don't have to have anybody know code or have one person add content. But we are using this website and paying someone 50 dollars a page or whatever to have some content added. |
| zenarcher May 11, 2009 5:49 PM EDT |
As someone who is continually bombarded by friends and relatives who think Windows and Limewire go together, I have to agree with Ken. Doing Windows reinstalls is continual. No, I won't take the time to try to "fix" their current Windows system....it's faster and easier to do a clean install...and I'm generally doing it for free...so it's my way....or they can go pay someone else. The longer I'm with Linux, the more annoying I find doing a Windows install. Going to websites to find the latest Windows drivers, etc. I don't do that for myself, so why should I do it for someone else? Fortunately, I've switched most friends and family to Linux and they are happy with it. And, I don't see their computers every couple of months either. As for Linux being "difficult," it's the mindset that's difficult. We have two grandchildren, ages 5 and 10, who live in a complete Windows environment. They come to the house and immediately want to get on our computers, which are Linux. Sometimes, they forget and will ask what they have to do to access the web browser. You show them...then leave them alone. Come back a half an hour later and they've figured out Linux games, etc. and are happily entertaining themselves. All because they don't have the, "I don't want to learn something new," mindset. A lot more adults need to approach life and computers with the same optimism. Keep up the good work, Ken. You really have said what most all of us would like to say to friends and family. I've sent your article to all of them. |
| Alterax May 11, 2009 6:07 PM EDT |
Ken may be saying things bluntly, but the man has a point. It's that same reason that the bulk of my family has switched to GNU/Linux. It got to where every time I'd visit, it would consist of me making my rounds trying to fix their issues. I admit--part of my trouble was not saying no at the time, but the fact remains that I'd spend a half-tank of gas to visit them--only to find that I'd gotten to do no visiting at all. I switched my grandmother first, because her computer ran like cr@p and was getting infected faster than I could get to her. I started my mother, younger brother, niece, and nephew with 'Nix because I didn't want to have to spend all my time supporting them, too. Some call this selfish or pushy or whatever. Let them. Since then, my grandmother has come to like what she's using. The grandkids and great-grandkids can use it all they like (and they do), without messing it up. My mother, brother, niece, and nephew have taken to it very well, and now my mother is learning more about the computer than ever before--precisely because she isn't as worried about breaking it. In the end, now when I visit I just run the updates if they are needed, and spend the rest of my time in idle gossip and playing in the kitchen. The computer is back off to the side during these visits--which is EXACTLY where it belongs. |
| Sander_Marechal May 11, 2009 6:15 PM EDT |
Alterax: I switch people all the time too. And I refuse to fix any Windows PCs. I haven't seriously used Windows since Win98. The thing is, if someone doesn't want to switch, even if they could, then I don't call them idiots. |
| rijelkentaurus May 11, 2009 7:02 PM EDT |
Quoting: It's what their employer or their school demands. Sometimes it's the only OS that will run the software that they need as Steven Rosenberg eloquently pointed out in another thread yesterday Caitlyn, did you not read Ken's article? Quoting: And if you have to use it at work...I understand. Unfortunately, as flawed as it is, it is still a Windows world. The good news? Slowly but surely businesses across the globe are making the switch. Even those that are not yet Linux companies are letting some employees run their choice of operating systems on their work computers. That choice is Linux. He made an allowance for that. |
| tracyanne May 11, 2009 7:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:If my employer forced me to use Windows on my home computer, I'd run it in a virtual machine, and only do what needs to be done from there. "I need software for work" is no excuse. Exactly what I do. The only Windows OS I have is on a Virtual Machine. Or else I take my work computer home. |
| helios May 11, 2009 7:14 PM EDT |
Again... I did not specifically call anyone an idiot. I gave them a problem-set and let them come to their own conclusions. Could I have broadened the choices? Yeah, I should have...Let me do that now. The behavior: performing the identical task over and over and then expecting the same results. The diagnosis: insanity I guess insanity would have been the more genteel and politically correct choice. At least with insanity, you get some fairly good medications. Or so I've heard.... h |
| gus3 May 11, 2009 8:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:Calling people "idiot", as Ken himself acknowledges, does nothing but offend.But the offense proves the attention paid. Furthermore, once the offense is taken, the arguments are already made, and the conclusion is drawn by the reader. The writer merely drives it home. Or, put it differently: A young brave was patrolling the edge of the encampment one afternoon, when he looked down and saw a snake. Startled, he jumped back, but the snake looked at him and said, "I just want to cross the river. Can you carry me over?" The brave replied quickly, "What? You're a snake! You'll bite me, and I'll die!" The snake said, "Why would I bite you if I want you to carry me across the river? I will not bite you. Please, carry me to the other side of the river." The young brave considered this point, and decided to carry the snake over. He picked up the snake carefully, waded into the water to the other side, and put the snake down. As soon as his hands were off the snake, it struck and bit him. As the young brave lay dying, he asked the snake, "Why did you bite me, when you said you wouldn't?" The snake replied, "You knew what I was when you picked me up." |
| caitlyn May 11, 2009 8:27 PM EDT |
If my employer forced me to use Windows on my home computer, I'd run it in a virtual machine, and only do what needs to be done from there. "I need software for work" is no excuse. You are sophisticated enough to setup a virtual machine. That's fine. More than 95% of users don't have that level of knowledge. Probably 90% have no clue what a virtual machine is. Last week I took Chin Soon to the vet. While waiting I was working on my netbook. A woman there asked if it was a computer and thought it was cute. She never saw a netbook before. She asked if it runs Windows. I told her no, it runs Linux. Her response: "I never heard of that." I explained in three sentences why I think Linux is better. She asked if she could get one at Best Buy. They don't carry Linux machines anymore, of course. I told her, honestly, that it's far less expensive to buy online. Is there any chance she'll buy a Linux machine? Probably not. If she buys a netbook at all it will be what is on the store shelf. Guess what? She is a very typical user. That doesn't make her an idiot. It means, like most people, she isn't technical. Maybe, just maybe, I did some good mentioning Linux in a friendly way. A confrontation would not have worked. It almost never does. Again, I agree with Ken's goals. His methods are awful. Those of you who are agreeing with him, well... I wonder if you are living in the real world. |
| caitlyn May 11, 2009 8:36 PM EDT |
IMHO very few people are actually forced to accept positions where they are compelled to use ms windows. IMHO we must live on different planets. Most large employers, the folks I've worked for, have corporate standards. It's their way or the highway. One point I've taken care to make clear during every job interview I've had in the past 14 years, is that I use the best tools available and that means I use Linux as my primary OS. If the other side balks at that, that job is not for me. It's nice that you are in such demand. Try that now during a recession/depression and see how well that works. I've done four contracts for IBM over the years. I remember when their employees had to run OS/2. Some tried to explain why Windows made sense in their job. They got exactly nowhere. It was OS/2 or the highway if you worked for IBM where I was at the time. I did a contract about five years ago for another company that had made a corporate decision to replace as many of the Windows servers as possible with Linux. One admin, an otherwise sharp guy, said he'd rather quit than learn Linux. Any guesses how well that worked out? During that period of time, I've turned down some jobs, and accepted others, but the bottom line is that I've remained fully employed. Good for you. A lot of people would be unnecessarily unemployed if they tried that strategy. IME that is the real world. I knew a woman who refused to work with any technical recruiter who insisted on an MS Word resume. She insisted that anyone who knew how to hire a UNIX person wouldn't ask for a Word resume. Maybe that worked at the height of the dot com bubble, Nowadays I suspect she would send a Word resume. Every recruiter I've worked with for I don't know how many years demands them. Of course I use OpenOffice to create my "Word" resume but the format is Microsoft's. There's always a choice. How bad do you want it? Most people would choose a regular paycheck over a pig-headed insistence that they have to do something other than to corporate standards. |
| caitlyn May 11, 2009 8:43 PM EDT |
Oh, I agree with Ken about refusing to support Windows. OK, I will support Windows if someone throws enough money at me to do it. Usually that means a Linux/UNIX customer who is happy with my work and doesn't want to call a Windows person they aren't happy with. In this economy I'll happily take their money and fix their Windows issues. I won't do it for free, not for friends, not for family. My recent excuse is that I don't know enough about Vista to help them. Not strictly true but it's about the only way to avoid making family members angry. The analogy about slamming your fingers in a drawer doesn't fit. Most folks I know who run Windows are perfectly happy with it. They accept Windows nonsense as normal for anyone who runs a computer. If you tell them there is an alternative they may or may not be interested. If they are I show them what I run. I don't get in their faces. I don't do confrontations. Again, they don't work. You get a lot further being friendly and helpful. What if they aren't interested? Then let them do what 90% or so of people do and let them happily run Windows. I figure sooner or later they won't be so happy and may just remember what I said about an alternative. I bet I get more people to run Linux instead or Windows that those of you who pontificate, who call people idiots, who get confrontational, and who insist that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. |
| herzeleid May 11, 2009 8:49 PM EDT |
@caitlyn - So you're saying: - I don't live in the real world - I'm pig headed - I'm not living on the same planet as you. All because when I said that choose to use and work with linux, I actually meant it. And you're supposedly a linux advocate? wow... In any case, you're pretty free with your accusations for someone who knows absolutely nothing about me. |
| flufferbeer May 11, 2009 9:03 PM EDT |
@helios and caitlyn,
Just tuned into this spat starting with them famous fighten' words "For the sake of the Linux community I wish he'd just shut up." I see the main difference between you two is that Ken is a LEADER, of CIO material, who directs and manages projects for Linux uptake. His outspoken comments nudge you and actually force you to take action. Caitlyn OTOH, you primarily seem to be a FOLLOWER; someone who scratches through contract employments to "always follow where the money is". Sounds harsh, caitlyn, but that's based upon what you've actually written in your last threeset of longer comments above. Hard lovin' goes two ways; them's the facts of the matter for both of you. I'm with gus3, herzeleid and others supporting helios on this. My own NSH 2c (IMNSHO) on this whole matter. |
| caitlyn May 11, 2009 9:34 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer: Actually I spent six years as a corporate IT Director for a $250 million dollar corporation. We didn't have a CIO. When it came to technology I was it and I reported directly to the CEO. After we were bought out by a $4 billion dollar corporation I was ordered to lay off my entire staff. That's when I decided I wanted to do strictly technical work and didn't give a damn about climbing the corporate ladder or being a director or manager or officer. Firing good people who did a fantastic job just was WRONG. I didn't want to ever do it again. I've run my own small business for the fast two and a half years. I did it for 10 years in between IT Director gigs and sold out when the time was right. Don't make judgments about my career unless you know the facts. Ask yourself how someone who isn't part of the Linux community would read what Helios/Ken says and how they would react. Sometimes I think the Linux community can be its own little insular world that is divorced from outside reality. |
| flufferbeer May 11, 2009 9:46 PM EDT |
@caitlyn wow... and unbelievable for sure. FYI, I think YOU are the one who is rushing to judgements! I stand by my comments and raise them to say that based upon the facts on what was written, helios is the primary one who has had major vision in Linux adoption. helios has certainly put up a challenge to us all in his thin-line-between-victim-and-idiot story. AAMOF, his poetic vision prompted you to write your top triggering comment in the 1st place "For the sake of the Linux community I wish he'd just shut up." Again, YOU were the one who wrote "For the sake of the Linux community I wish he'd just shut up." I and probably others reading this would write just the opposite, that for the sake of the Linux and greater computer-using community, he DOESNT shut up! +2c for helios or maybe a nickel here ;) |
| jdixon May 11, 2009 10:01 PM EDT |
OK, starting at the top. > Calling people "idiot", as Ken himself acknowledges, does nothing but offend. Perhaps. But is it true? > It won't convince people to leave Windows. No, it won't. But if Ken is correct, nothing short of total market domination by Linux will. If that's the case, it doesn't really matter if he calls them idiots or not. They'll switch at that point no matter what Ken has said, and not before. > It will convince people that the Linux community is full of slef-righteous, overbearing, obnoxious zealots. Most, if not all, of these people were already convinced of that. > They do real harm to Linux adoption. In your opinion. The facts are inconclusive. > Sometimes it's the only OS that will run the software that they need as Steven Rosenberg eloquently pointed out in another thread yesterday. Then run Windows on a dedicated machine for that purpose. Better yet, run it in a virtual machine. But don't use it as your primary machine. > For many it's what came on their computer and they have neither the skills nor the time to learn how to install something else successfully. Since you can now readily buy Linux preinstalled, that's no longer a good argument. > It's what they know and the unknown is always frightening to people. More frightening that the viruses, spyware, rootkits, et.al, they get with Windows? In that case Ken's description is completely accurate. > There is a right way to do Linux advocacy and a wrong way to do it. Each individual brings there own unique skill set to whatever they do. Ken's skill set is not the same as yours. He uses the skills he has. That's all any of us can do. There is no right or wrong way; there is Caitlyn's way, Ken's way, Jim's way, and a myriad of other ways. > In your face confrontation is the wrong way. Ken doesn't do in your face confrontation. He does blog post confrontation. There is a distinct difference. > Like I said, it does more harm than good. Again, in your opinion. > Our disagreement is in how we reach those goals. Agreed. But there is always room for reasonable people to disagree when the facts cannot be determined. You're apparently only seeing your chosen set of facts. There is also a rather large set of facts indicating that you may not be correct. > ...read what you wrote again and try to understand how many Windows users would take your post to mean exactly that. Which would only prove his point, as what he wrote is explicitly what he said. It's a sad indication of the state of our public education system that how you can expect people take something and what that something actually says can have so little in common. > Those of you who are agreeing with him, well... I wonder if you are living in the real world. Sure looks like it to me, but of course there's no way to prove it one way or another. > Oh, I agree with Ken about refusing to support Windows, While I agree, I still support Windows for my coworkers and friends. Why? Because that's what the people are using, and it's what's compatible with work. I've converted a small group over to Linux over the years, mostly on older machines which can no longer run current versions of Windows, but those aren't machines they use to connect to work. > I bet I get more people to run Linux instead or Windows that those of you who pontificate, who call people idiots, who get confrontational... You undoubtedly get more than I do, simply because you live in a far more populous area. However, I don't get confrontational and I don't gratuitously call people idiots to their faces for using Windows. That doesn't mean I don't think they are, or that I'm unwilling to say so if asked directly. > ... and who insist that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You're the one who is saying someone is wrong Caitlyn, not me. :) And no, being an idiot is not the same thing as being wrong. > ....but the format is Microsoft's. As someone else pointed out a long time ago, just rename a text document to .doc, and Word will open it quite well. There's no need to use Microsoft's .doc format, even if they ask that you do so. |
| gus3 May 11, 2009 10:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:Sometimes I think the Linux community can be its own little insular world that is divorced from outside reality.That sword can cut both ways. Windows world: Viruses, worms, and other malware is a fact of life. Outside reality: So is death, but we still buckle up. Windows world: System freezes are to be expected. Outside reality: Engine stalls on a four-lane highway are a bad thing. Windows world: The next version will get it right. Outside reality: We fine car makers (and appliance makers, and furniture makers, and and and...) who refuse to fix dangerous defects. |
| azerthoth May 11, 2009 10:25 PM EDT |
I'm one of those poor 'forced to use windows at work' with the random linux based system here and there. I'm not talking about needing windows for $APP, I mean that the computers and all networks connections are under configuration control, dont have proper key token, no network for you ... period. As to the rest thats going on, juvenile competitive urination for distance. |
| nikkels May 11, 2009 10:30 PM EDT |
I live in Thailand, a poor country :-)
If you think that Ken was rude , wait till you hear me.
I tell them in straigh forward and not to be misunderstood language, that
they are f..... thiefs.
They knew that already of course, but my dear wife, who speaks their lingo ,
translates it for me ( with the greatest of pleasure ) and ads some spice to it.
The excuse that they are poor is BS.
They all have an expensive cell phone, satelite TV, and other things which fall in the " Luxury De luxe " category.
They break international law
They brake local law
They brake Buddhist law When I get a chance, I steal their ( expensive if possible ) pen, under their eyes, which upsets them badly. I refuse to give it back. I explain that their pen is a fraction of the cost of that of software they pirate Then they understand . All the time, every time 50% of the time they want to try linux ( after a healing period of a few weeks), and many of them stay with it once they get used to it. Today, another one is coming for a linux install ( pclinuxos ) . But because of school, where they are forced to use stolen software...yes, they are forced ...it will be a dual boot. Further more, those who are converted this way, use same tactics and try to convert others as well, so far without success. So, please stop calling Ken rude. He is a softy. Of course, I am not recommending my ways in a first world country. You may end up behind bars. But here, the bars still have to be imported, so.....no problem. And if you want to know my success rate,,,,about 100 in 4 years Now,,,,start shooting back at me.........and call me all you want......!!!!! Yours Nikkels |
| jdixon May 11, 2009 10:35 PM EDT |
> I'm one of those poor 'forced to use windows at work' with the random linux based system here and there. As am I, though we apparently have more local control than you do. In our case it's just that all of our systems are Windows based and don't work well (or in some cases, at all) with Linux. I can connect a Linux machine to the network and even get it to work; I just can't get any work done. However, for using and supporting Windows, I make almost twice the average local wage, so I can't complain too much. And no, there are no Linux tech support jobs in my area. Believe me, I've looked. |
| gus3 May 11, 2009 10:55 PM EDT |
@nikkels, Your story has the same prose rhythm as "The Story of Mel," and lends itself to the same dramatic reading aloud. (Yes, I did.) |
| Alterax May 11, 2009 11:22 PM EDT |
Wow....I turn my back for a couple of hours and it's blown up! Did we all get our collective knickers in a knot or something? |
| tuxchick May 11, 2009 11:44 PM EDT |
No alterax, mine are smooth and comfortable as I think my own thoughts and stay out of the fray :) |
| Alterax May 11, 2009 11:53 PM EDT |
Highly entertaining though....want some popcorn? |
| gus3 May 11, 2009 11:58 PM EDT |
*biting tongue hard enough to make it bleed* |
| tuxchick May 12, 2009 12:01 AM EDT |
Popcorn sounds good. I have root beer to share :) |
| kingttx May 12, 2009 10:59 AM EDT |
One of my favorite quotes:
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw There is going to be no single style in Linux advocacy. Some will slather their slant with LOADS of political correctness and marketspeak, others will shoot straight from the hip, and there are infinite degrees in between. As long as we don't go beating up Windows techies like some of them are apt, we're good to go. |
| tuxchick May 12, 2009 11:02 AM EDT |
Quoting: As long as we don't go beating up Windows techies like some of them are apt, we're good to go. If you mean physically, you just spoiled my summer vacation plans. |
| gus3 May 12, 2009 11:18 AM EDT |
tc, I think he's referring to a techie who wanted to send Ken to the hospital on a stretcher. |
| bigg May 12, 2009 11:43 AM EDT |
It's always much better to charge hundreds of dollars to repeatedly install Windows plus mountains of software, as opposed to bluntly telling them that what they are doing makes no sense. |
| techiem2 May 12, 2009 12:54 PM EDT |
bigg: And you'd think eventually they'd catch on......lol |
| kingttx May 12, 2009 2:35 PM EDT |
Tuxchick and Gus3, you both read me correctly. :) |
| herzeleid May 12, 2009 5:23 PM EDT |
@caitlyn - Quoting:IMHO we must live on different planets. Most large employers, the folks I've worked for, have corporate standards. It's their way or the highway.Sure, my fortune 100 employer has standards - why would you assume otherwise? But the thing about standards is that they are constantly evolving. You can sit passively and play the victim, or you can help the standards evolve. There is a lot of grey area which can be effectively exploited. More to the point, nobody is twisting your arm to accept a job where you are forbidden to use linux in any meaningful way. If you are repeatedly finding yourself in that sort of position, it's time to re-assess your career path. Quoting:It's nice that you are in such demand. Try that now during a recession/depression and see how well that works.Perhaps you weren't aware of this, but the recession has created a lot of opportunity for linux. We're moving ahead with the move of oracle to linux, and are looking more aggressively for other applications and services which can be moved to linux. As to comment about "trying that now", I recently interviewed at Fox Interactive media, which runs a huge linux server farm (used for the myspace ad servers among others). Guess what? All the techies there are running linux on the desktop. I would have been happy as a clam there - Ultimately I didn't take the job because it is an absolute killer commute. not to worry though, as I was told by my manager, in preparation for the recession induced staff reductions here, that my job is safe specifically because of the increasing importance of linux in our organization. Quoting:I've done four contracts for IBM over the years. I remember when their employees had to run OS/2. Some tried to explain why Windows made sense in their job. They got exactly nowhere. It was OS/2 or the highway if you worked for IBM where I was at the time.But you knew that going in, right? so no room for complaint. Quoting:I did a contract about five years ago for another company that had made a corporate decision to replace as many of the Windows servers as possible with Linux. One admin, an otherwise sharp guy, said he'd rather quit than learn Linux. Any guesses how well that worked out?Haven't an earthly - I'd assume the ms diehard soon found his job responsibilities shrinking. Quoting:Good for you. A lot of people would be unnecessarily unemployed if they tried that strategy. IME that is the real world.Gosh, that sounds downright grim. But perhaps you're not all that clear on what "strategy" you think I employ. Quoting:I knew a woman who refused to work with any technical recruiter who insisted on an MS Word resume. She insisted that anyone who knew how to hire a UNIX person wouldn't ask for a Word resume. Maybe that worked at the height of the dot com bubble, Nowadays I suspect she would send a Word resume. Every recruiter I've worked with for I don't know how many years demands them.I don't see the relevance of that observation. Linux word processing programs have been able to save to doc format since the 1990s. It's just one more random file format to me. Quoting:Most people would choose a regular paycheck over a pig-headed insistence that they have to do something other than to corporate standards.What makes you think I don't choose a regular paycheck? I've got a regular paycheck, thanks - all earned through a linux centric career path. It's interesting that you call me "pig-headed" for making sure that a job is a right fit before accepting it. So, your advice is just to be desperate, in a hurry, and accept the first job offer one can find, regardless of whether it correlates at all to ones interests and strengths? Interesting career advice, but it contrasts starkly with everything I've learned on the subject over the years. |
| vainrveenr May 12, 2009 6:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:Sure, my fortune 100 employer has standards - why would you assume otherwise? But the thing about standards is that they are constantly evolving. You can sit passively and play the victim, or you can help the standards evolve. There is a lot of grey area which can be effectively exploited.This brings to mind the following semi-humorous quote : Quoting:Some people make things happen, some watch while things happen, and some wonder 'What happened?'(#103 of http://www.theotherpages.org/quote/alpha-a2.html) |
| azerthoth May 12, 2009 10:39 PM EDT |
*announcer voice* ... and herzeleid comes back to the urinal line up, and while not much for distance, he sure is going for that 'most volume' award. *end announcer voice* seriously, this is a little tiff between caitlyn and ken, neither of whom have ever needed any one else to step into their arguments for them. Get off the semantics and theology, let them either settle their differences, and moce on like adults. The rest of the children lined up with gas cans would be best pointed at enderle, where atleast the ensuing idiocy would seem normal. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2009 10:40 PM EDT |
Sure, my fortune 100 employer has standards - why would you assume otherwise? I made no assumptions. Let's go back to what you said that I responded to: IMHO very few people are actually forced to accept positions where they are compelled to use ms windows. That is completely, absolutely 100% contrary to my experience. Corporate standards almost always dictate Windows on the desktop. But the thing about standards is that they are constantly evolving. You can sit passively and play the victim, or you can help the standards evolve. There is a lot of grey area which can be effectively exploited. Now you are the one making assumptions. You make either being a victim or changing/fighting standards an either/or choice. First, if I take a job there must be something in it for me. I also don't believe that running Windows at work because that's the corporate standard makes me or anyone else a victim. Most Windows users I know don't consider themselves to be victimized. Most would actually fight being asked to change to Linux. Second, yes, I might be able to influence or change standards in time. Certainly not on day one. Then again, maybe not at all. When I decided I wanted to be a purely technical person and gave up on being in management I lost a lot of influence. I made that choice. Such decisions often are political rather than technical, unfortunately, or made by non-technical people, or made at a home office in another location far from where I work. The assumption that just because someone is a skilled and valued technical person they will be able to change standards is often just not true. More to the point, nobody is twisting your arm to accept a job where you are forbidden to use linux in any meaningful way. I've never had such a position. However, I have worked in places where Linux or UNIX is used extensively in the server room and forbidden on the desktop. I, in all but one case, was eventually able to use Linux or a UNIX workstation of some sort to do my work by making the argument that using Windows to administer *nix is a serious handicap. I still had to have a Windows box on my desktop to use corporate tools for mail, groupware, etc... that weren't supported under Linux. If you are repeatedly finding yourself in that sort of position, it's time to re-assess your career path. Did you read what jdixon said, above? In some markets the number of Linux positions is decidedly limited.. It really does depend on where you live. I'm running my own small business, effectively freelancing now, and have been for over two years. I'm having a very decent month in terms of billable hours, my best since December. June is looking like it will be even better. So, yes, I get to use Linux and very rarely have to touch Windows at all. Since I had concerns about my ability to build a business during the current recession/depression (perhaps unfounded) I've kept an eye on the local job market and kept a resume on a couple of the most popular tech job sites. Guess what? The private sector here is all but dead. What jobs exist are almost all state and local government. Those agencies do use *nix, including Linux, in the server room in many places. On the desktop they demand Windows. If I were to decide to go for one of those jobs I'd really have no choice in the matter. I have friends who do work for the state. The decision to give more and more business to Microsoft is purely political. Technical people have no input. Decisions are often made contrary to the recommendations of IT. That's the reality where I live. If it's different where you live that's just great. However you make the assumption that everyone has the choices you have had. It often just isn't so. Perhaps you weren't aware of this, but the recession has created a lot of opportunity for linux. We're moving ahead with the move of oracle to linux, and are looking more aggressively for other applications and services which can be moved to linux. That applies to your employer. Does that apply here in North Carolina? To all employers? Yes, there are some new opportunities. What I see, when I sell my services, is that companies are cutting IT to the bone or beyond and putting off any and all new work. The economic conditions and market conditions may be different where you are. I know many, many people in various places around the country who report exactly what I am seeing here in NC. don't see the relevance of that observation. Linux word processing programs have been able to save to doc format since the 1990s. My point was that in a robust economy people can put all sorts of conditions on their employment because opportunities are everywhere for talented people. In this economy it just isn't so. Also, I was using Linux in the mid to late '90s. Linux word processors mangled formatting of Word documents back then. What makes you think I don't choose a regular paycheck? I've got a regular paycheck, thanks - all earned through a linux centric career path. Me too. Oh, and responding to your last post, I didn't call you, personally, pig-headed. What I said is that sometimes you have to accept corporate or government or organizational standards, including using Windows, to have a career path at all, particularly in a difficult economy. Once again I reference jdixon's post above. So, your advice is just to be desperate, in a hurry, and accept the first job offer one can find, regardless of whether it correlates at all to ones interests and strengths? Interesting career advice, but it contrasts starkly with everything I've learned on the subject over the years. I said nothing of the sort and you know it. This last bit is patently insulting and a great case of putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that being rigid and refusing to use Windows on the desktop at all no matter what standards an organization has in this economy is a great way to stay unemployed. Where I live there are tons of unemployed and talented tech people. If one doesn't want to play by the rules it's no big deal for a company or organization to find someone else. Again, if it's different where you live that's great. I think what I see now is very common in lots of the U.S. right now. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2009 10:50 PM EDT |
bigg wrote: It's always much better to charge hundreds of dollars to repeatedly install Windows plus mountains of software, as opposed to bluntly telling them that what they are doing makes no sense. Yep. 100% spot on. Option one, doing the work, puts money in the bank and nets you customers who are happy that you'll do what they want. The latter insults the same people who won't call you again. The trick is to do the work, smile while doing it, and then tell the happy customer how you can save them lots of money in the long run by moving from Windows to Linux where possible. If they say no you smile since the customer is always right and do what they want. When they complain about Windows you can always bring up Linux again :) You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It's an old saw but it's true. That is my whole beef with Ken. He and I agree 100% on the goals and disagree completely about the style of communication that works best. |
| vainrveenr May 13, 2009 1:55 AM EDT |
Quoting:Calling people "idiot", as Ken himself acknowledges, does nothing but offend. It won't convince people to leave Windows. It will convince people that the Linux community is full of slef-righteous [self-righteous], overbearing, obnoxious zealots.Isn't this itself perhaps being somewhat judgmental ? Quoting:Again, I agree with Ken's goals. His methods are awful.With this last sentence, is the author of the comment again perhaps being slightly somewhat judgmental ? Then a brief Quoting:I don't get in their faces. I don't do confrontations.Of course not. ...and yet further below this. Quoting:Don't make judgments about my career unless you know the facts.Perhaps a combination of being both somewhat confrontational and somewhat judgmental here eh?? This somehow manages to bring to mind one episode in particular of the 1959 TV series 'The Twilight Zone'. The episode in mind is entitled 'Four O'Clock'(1962) and here is its spoiler/synopsis : Quoting:Oliver Crangle is a fanatic who maintains records of people he deems evil, calling and writing their employers to remind them of the evil acts in question and to demand their immediate firing. Unsatisfied with the results he gets with anonymous threats, he searches for a more effective way to eliminate all evil from the world.(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_O'Clock) So within this TV episode, c attempts to strike down the "tiny percentage" of those "evil people" (those zealous fanatics? those offensive people ?) and ends up striking himself down. Can the conclusion of this TV episode be considered as solely in the realm of fiction, and thus completely and absolutely "divorced from outside reality" within the F/OSS world and beyond ??? |
| jdixon May 13, 2009 9:40 AM EDT |
> That is my whole beef with Ken. He and I agree 100% on the goals and disagree completely about the style of communication that works best. Not everyone CAN use the same style of communication. People are too different. You use what works for you, Ken uses what works for him. There's plenty of room for both. |
| ComputerBob May 13, 2009 11:42 AM EDT |
Cheers and unmitigated support for those with whom I agree! Good-natured baiting, provocation and the use of straw man arguments against those with whom I disagree! |
| helios May 13, 2009 11:42 AM EDT |
seriously, this is a little tiff between caitlyn and ken, neither of whom have ever needed any one else to step into their arguments for them. Get off the semantics and theology, let them either settle their differences, and moce on like adults. Actually, much has happened since this thread began. Caitlyn and I are now happily married. Caitlyn is the Executive Director of Conservatives for Democracy and I have recently purchased Google. We have two brilliant children and live in Martha's Vinyard. Do you want me to pick up a nice bottle of wine on the way home honey? |
| tuxchick May 13, 2009 11:47 AM EDT |
Quoting: Do you want me to pick up a nice bottle of wine on the way home honey? That reminds me of my favorite joke. A woman is making a special dinner for herself and her husband, and goes to the wine store to get a good bottle of wine. As she is driving home she sees an acquaintance walking along the road, and stops to offer her ride. The friend gets in and they ride along in silence, with the friend glancing at the sack that holds the wine. Finally she asks "What's in the bag?" The woman says "It's a nice bottle of wine that I got for my husband." Her passenger thinks about this for a few blocks, and then replies "You made a good trade." |
| herzeleid May 13, 2009 1:57 PM EDT |
@caitlyn - Quoting:That is completely, absolutely 100% contrary to my experience. Corporate standards almost always dictate Windows on the desktop.In every single place I've worked since 1993, there has always been a technical core running linux on the desktop, even though the rank and file were provided with the usual crap. But I digress - whether or not a specific company has a 'doze only' policy is irrelevant because as I previously pointed out, "nobody is twisting your arm to accept a job where you are forbidden to use linux" Quoting:I've never had such a position. However, I have worked in places where Linux or UNIX is used extensively in the server room and forbidden on the desktop.I've interviewed at places like this. Sorry, I didn't take the job. Quoting:I, in all but one case, was eventually able to use Linux or a UNIX workstation of some sort to do my work by making the argument that using Windows to administer *nix is a serious handicap. I still had to have a Windows box on my desktop to use corporate tools for mail, groupware, etc... that weren't supported under Linux.Could you provide some specific examples of stuff that required ms windows? Not denying what you're saying, just curious. Quoting:I have friends who do work for the state. The decision to give more and more business to Microsoft is purely political. Technical people have no input. Decisions are often made contrary to the recommendations of IT.You assume incorrectly that I've made assumptions. At any rate, It's not just different where I live - every place is different. Quoting:My point was that in a robust economy people can put all sorts of conditions on their employment because opportunities are everywhere for talented people. In this economy it just isn't so.So, in this economy, you advise people not to prefer a good match for their skills and interests ("putting conditions on their employment" as you like to term it) but to pounce desperately on the first job offer they get? You were offended when I implied that such was your view, but here you seem to be saying that very thing. Quoting:Also, I was using Linux in the mid to late '90s. Linux word processors mangled formatting of Word documents back then.(shrug) Different versions of ms word mangle formatting of word docs. But Applix did a pretty good job in 1996, as did wordperfect later. Now openoffice v2 and v3 also do a fair job, but as always, microsoft goes to great lengths to frustrate and sabotage seamless interoperability. Quoting:What I am saying is that being rigid and refusing to use Windows on the desktop at all no matter what standards an organization has in this economy is a great way to stay unemployed. Where I live there are tons of unemployed and talented tech people. If one doesn't want to play by the rules it's no big deal for a company or organization to find someone else.You've apparently misunderstood me. I'm not talking about "being rigid", or about taking a job and then refusing to "play by the rules" - I'm talking about making certain that the rules are something you can live with, *before* taking the job. Quoting:Again, if it's different where you live that's great. I think what I see now is very common in lots of the U.S. right now.Oh, I'm sure you can always find bad workplaces, but from what I can see, things are looking better for linux users now than they've ever been before. But there is still a long fight ahead, as the monopolist will continue to use its considerable resources to fight the inevitable. |
| vainrveenr May 13, 2009 2:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:The woman says "It's a nice bottle of wine that I got for my husband." Her passenger thinks about this for a few blocks, and then replies "You made a good trade."Nice! :D ... and was it not the great American author and humorist Mark Twain who wrote Quoting:Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand.(from http://www.theotherpages.org/quote/alpha-t4.html) ... and a series of semi-humorous quotes (related to thread?) on advice and IT experience, all from http://www.theotherpages.org/quote/alpha-a2.html : Quoting:133. The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice we give to others. Quoting:135. Good judgement comes from experience...experience comes from poor judgement Quoting:140. The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it. Quoting:141. Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry. Quoting:142. Experience is what causes a person to make new mistakes instead of old ones. Quoting:143. Experience is what you got by not having it when you need it.ah yes, sometimes so very true! |
| gus3 May 13, 2009 3:05 PM EDT |
Being well-adjusted means being able to make the same mistake twice, without freaking out. |
| caitlyn May 13, 2009 6:04 PM EDT |
Could you provide some specific examples of stuff that required ms windows? Not denying what you're saying, just curious. Exchange when used for more than just mail. At the time the Evolution connector worked through OWA and was painfully slow. It did mail properly but did not handle calendaring or contacts properly. Groupware can be a huge big deal. Proprietary time tracking software. I forget the name now. Collaborative documents done in Word or Excel. Sure, OpenOffice could open the documents but the version tracking and collaboration features are lost which wasn't acceptable at all. Oh, I'm sure you can always find bad workplaces, but from what I can see, things are looking better for linux users now than they've ever been before. But there is still a long fight ahead, as the monopolist will continue to use its considerable resources to fight the inevitable. I don't see anything as inevitable. I also don't judge an employer strictly by what they use on the desktop. Please note that this was all a few years ago. As I've already noted it's been more than three years since I worked someplace where Windows was expected So, in this economy, you advise people not to prefer a good match for their skills and interests ("putting conditions on their employment" as you like to term it) but to pounce desperately on the first job offer they get? You were offended when I implied that such was your view, but here you seem to be saying that very thing. I NEVER said anything of the sort. It has nothing at all to do with "desperation" or taking the first job offered. I've turned down many job offers during my career because they weren't acceptable for one reason or another. The area I live has always depended on a few relatively large employers. After the dot com bubble burst and most of the small tech companies here folded that was all there is. Government is the number one employer, followed by universities, followed by the now shrunken large tech and pharmaceutical companies that used to dominate the market here. If you lived here you would see things very differently. Or... you could do what I did and go into business for yourself and set your own rules. Here and now that really is an either/or choice. You know, it's funny. Red Hat is based here. Great company, brilliant people to work for. My job was 100% travel. They just don't have that many local customers. I had an offer to stay permanently. I didn't because the travel schedule didn't work for me. If I was advocating desperately clinging to whatever is offered I'd still be at Red Hat. I am selling Linux solutions to small and medium sized businesses here. It's an uphill battle at best and there just isn't much of anyone buying. The customers who are paying the bills right now aren't local and are willing to have me work remotely most of the time. Believe me, I'd much rather have local customers. I'm talking about making certain that the rules are something you can live with, *before* taking the job. I can live with having a Windows box on my desktop so long as I don't have to use it much. It's no big deal to me. I can live with it and it doesn't, IMHO, make an employed a "bad" place to work. If I can do my Linux/UNIX work on a *nix box that is good enough for me. Of course I'll advocate for a Linux desktop when opportunities arise. I'm not religious about operating systems. You apparently are and that sort of rigidity here would leave you unemployed. Again, see jdixon's comment above. |
| herzeleid May 13, 2009 7:20 PM EDT |
@caitlyn - Quoting:I'm not religious about operating systems. You apparently are and that sort of rigidity here would leave you unemployed. Again, see jdixon's comment above.You're assuming again. I'm quite flexible, and I'm also quite employed. I do have certain interests, abilities and preferences. Perhaps you don't. That's fine if you don't, we'll just agree to disagree in that area. What I hear you saying is "Grow up! these are hard times, and you need to forget all about this linux nonsense and take your medicine" :/ |
| caitlyn May 13, 2009 9:03 PM EDT |
Herzeleid: That isn't what I'm saying at all. Please stop putting words in my mouth. Again, employment conditions where you live are different from where I live. If you had to move here for some compelling reason and you didn't have your present job you might decide to tolerate having a Windows box if the alternative really meant unemployment. That or you'd start your own business as I did. Even when I had a Windows box on my desk my job was always 99% or more *nix since 2000. It was heavily *nix with more of a Windows component between 1995 and 2000. Prior to October, 1995 I was a Windows/Novell/OS2 person. I was pulled into UNIX out of lack of choice. The only person who knew UNIX (HP-UX to be precise) where I worked was out on medical leave. My boss showed me where the HP manuals were and threw me in sink or swim. I didn't sink but initially I didn't like it and anytime I took on HP troubleshooting I did so with real trepidation. Obviously I managed to teach myself enough HP-UX to muddle through. The workstation the Network Coordinator (the person I was filling in for) used for systems administration was a Red Hat box. That was my introduction to Linux. I left that job in June, 1996 after my original employer, who had made numerous attempts to rehire me over the previous 11 years, finally made me an offer too good to turn down. When I had left in 1985 they were a Datapoint shop. When I returned as IT Director in 1996 it was Windows on the desktop and HP-UX on the back end. Despite being a $250 million dollar company it was a small shop from an IT perspective and I was still hands-on and there was UNIX again. I didn't know it at the time but the future direction of my career had been set and it was UNIX/Linux. The point to saying all of this is that I *NEVER* had to "forget all about this linux nonsense". I did have to work with heterogeneous networks which ran different operating systems for different tasks. That still is the norm in most places. The bigger the shop the more you can specialize. If you aren't at the Fortune 500 level you have to have a diverse skillset. I actually prefer working in smaller shops. I have more input and can make more of a difference. What SHOULD drive the decision to run an OS isn't Open Source ideology. It is and always should be the needs of the business. Unfortunately sometimes politics or the whims of a powerful person within the organization outweigh good IT practice and practical decision making. In other cases, for a whole host of reasons, throwing Windows out is anything but practical, at least in the short term. I work for my customers; they don't work for me. If they want me to work with Windows and want to pay me my asking rate for doing so (and that is quite an expensive rate by local standards) I won't turn them down. If I did I might lose the Linux/UNIX work or lose the opportunity to move them in a Linux direction later. I don't view your "I don't do Windows, period" attitude as flexible. Anything but. Oh, and you said you didn't have a clue what happened to the Windows admin who didn't want to learn Linux. Our manager eventually gave him an ultimatum: learn or find other employment. I have my own interests, abilities, and preferences. I am quite passionate about some things. Believe it or not one of those things is Linux. |
| jdixon May 13, 2009 9:19 PM EDT |
> I am quite passionate about some things. Believe it or not one of those things is Linux. Oh, I believe it. I don't think you would put up with us if you weren't. :) |
| gus3 May 13, 2009 10:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:I didn't sink but initially I didn't like it and anytime I took on HP troubleshooting I did so with real trepidation. Obviously I managed to teach myself enough HP-UX to muddle through.FWIW, you're not the only one who learned HP-UX that way. I learned just enough to keep the system up and running for our devs. When it came time to get our product tested and certified by H-P, I actually tripled my knowledge of HP-UX, thanks to the H-P rep doing the testing. Quoting:I don't view your "I don't do Windows, period" attitude as flexible. Anything but.For employment, I will use, but not support, Windows, period. My ability to sleep at night, free from the worries of Conficker/Nimda/CodeRed, is not something to be negotiated in a job offer. You may call that "inflexible," and you would be right, as far as it goes. But I call it "protecting my sanity." |
| jdixon May 13, 2009 10:14 PM EDT |
> For employment, I will use, but not support, Windows, period. I'm having far more problems with the inflexible and continually changing business practices being instituted based on the latest legal interpretations of Sarbanes-Oxley (gained, AFAICT, by interpreting goat entrails spread over written copies of same) than I've ever had supporting Windows. |
| herzeleid May 14, 2009 1:18 AM EDT |
@caitlyn - Quoting:Prior to October, 1995 I was a Windows/Novell/OS2 person. I was pulled into UNIX out of lack of choice.Prior to April 1993 I was an electronics specialist. I gravitated towards unix after I went to work at the University of California, where I was immersed in a unix environment, loved it, and changed my career direction. About 3 years later, I left the university to take my first commercial unix sys admin/webmaster job. Quoting:What SHOULD drive the decision to run an OS isn't Open Source ideology. It is and always should be the needs of the business.What 'business' are you talking about? My business runs on linux, because it's an ideal platform. You can run your business on whatever floats your boat, but don't insult me by calling me a religious idealogue because I run mine on linux. Quoting:I work for my customers; they don't work for me.You think I don't do the same? But my customers are those with need for unix expertise, especially linux expertise. You want to serve the windoze market, hey knock yourself out. I chose to specialize in what I'm good at. Who are you to criticize my choice? Quoting:I don't view your "I don't do Windows, period" attitude as flexible. Anything but.Please produce the reference where I said that, and stop putting words in my mouth. FYI I have worked on windoze. I do not advertise it and I do not volunteer for it, but I have had long time customers request that I take care of some sort of windoze problems, and I've done the work. I could refuse, but I've done the work out of good will. So, why must you fabricate outrageous statements and attribute them to me? What is it about my decision to specialize in linux that so threatens you? |
| caitlyn May 14, 2009 2:04 AM EDT |
Your decision to specialize in Linux doesn't threaten me. I've all but done the same. Your description: FYI I have worked on windoze. I do not advertise it and I do not volunteer for it, but I have had long time customers request that I take care of some sort of windoze problems, and I've done the work. I could refuse, but I've done the work out of good will That's exactly my situation. So why were you so critical of me for saying doing some Windows work now and then is a necessity? But my customers are those with need for unix expertise, especially linux expertise. You want to serve the windoze market, hey knock yourself out. I chose to specialize in what I'm good at. Who are you to criticize my choice? I never criticized your choice. It's essentially the same choice I made. What I criticized was where you basically stated that people always had a choice whether or not to do Windows. Why are you taking that so personally? I never criticized you. I criticized blanket statements you made that simply can't be applied to everyone. Surely you see the difference. What 'business' are you talking about? My business runs on linux, because it's an ideal platform. You can run your business on whatever floats your boat, but don't insult me by calling me a religious idealogue because I run mine on linux. I've already made clear that my business runs on Linux. What I was talking about were the vast majority of businesses in this area, large and small. They usually run Windows on the desktop and, in the case of larger businesses, a mixture or Windows, Linux, and UNIX in the server room. What mix of the three depends on the business. Again, I was responding to what I read as blanket statements. I never said anything specific about your business. |
| caitlyn May 14, 2009 2:07 AM EDT |
Oh, and I never called ANYONE a "religious idealogue". What I said was that *I* am not religious when it comes to operating systems. I was talking about *ME*. I also said that businesses (generic, not yours specifically) should make decisions based on what's best for the business, not based on politics or ideology. I also lamented that sometimes politics or the whim or a powerful individual overrides good sense in making technical decisions. I lamented that non-technical people often make technical decisions. Is there some part of that you disagree with? I think I see the problem (or argument) here. Don't take things that aren't directed at you personally as a personal attack. If I talk about the business or technical climate in the market where I live and work that doesn't apply to you, does it? |
| herzeleid May 14, 2009 3:15 AM EDT |
@caitlyn - A lot of things have been said, and I'm not interested in stirring the pot again to rehash them all at this point. We can both agree that flexibility is good - but I have to say, "doing some Windows work now and then", as you put it, is quite a different matter from a full time move to a linux-hostile workplace. To clarify what I've been saying, I have a full time day job, and I have a small consulting business on the side. I've agreed to do some occasional windows chores in the course of the latter, but I've always chosen to work in a linux friendly environment for the former. You may claim that I'm living in an enchanted bubble, that linux friendly environments don't exist in the "real world", but I know other linux professionals who are making a living, so I'm not the only one. |
| tuxtom May 14, 2009 3:47 AM EDT |
This is the year of the Linux desktop. |
| tracyanne May 14, 2009 7:11 AM EDT |
At least caitlyn gets to do Linux work, for many reasons, some historical (my entire work history before I started using Linux was Windows) some because of where I live, the only work available to me is Windows work. As a consequence I have a great work history doing Windows, so the only work I can get is Windows, which improves my Windows work history.... |
| gus3 May 14, 2009 9:49 AM EDT |
@tuxtom: Not yet, it isn't. Until the KDE and/or Gnome devs change their attitudes about teaching new users to use a GUI, it will never be. |
| jdixon May 14, 2009 11:59 AM EDT |
> ...the only work available to me is Windows work. I know the feeling, TracyAnne. :( I'm pretty sure I could find Linux work if I move to a more metropolitan area, but I really like living in the country. Supporting Windows is one of the prices I willing to pay. |
| Bob_Robertson May 14, 2009 1:06 PM EDT |
I'm here, you can delete the thread now. |
| tuxchick May 14, 2009 1:07 PM EDT |
Here bob, have some popcorn and root beer! |
| kingttx May 14, 2009 1:36 PM EDT |
RE: year of the desktop Linux ugh!! And why do I say that? I don't think Linux is going to have a single shining point where that year can be considered THE moment Linux was "in". What happens when you apply heat to glass? It takes time and it slowly morphs over to a liquid state, unlike most other matter. That's the analogy I personally see for Linux: it'll take time and "heat" (more continuous advocacy, some marketing, continued strong improvements) before folks will look up with bloodshot eyes from their monitors and have the epiphany that Linux has sneaked "in". Heck, might even write that one up for LXer. :) |
| kingttx May 14, 2009 2:36 PM EDT |
OK, it's up to LXer now. Editorial's in the queue. |
| tuxchick May 14, 2009 2:50 PM EDT |
kingttx, there is an entire parasitical "news" industry devoted entirely to "This is the year of the Linux desktop!/Not neither, so Linux is dead!" It gripes me that people get paid to write such piffle. No, it doesn't even rise to piffle, it's piffle lite. As you say, it's a long-term process with no magical "AHA" moments. Just nice steady growth and improvement. Contrast that with the borg empire, which has grown but shown no improvement whatsoever. Which in itself is a noteworthy achievement :) |
| kingttx May 14, 2009 2:52 PM EDT |
Agreed, and a good laugh at "piffle lite". |
| bigg May 14, 2009 3:10 PM EDT |
I'm a believer in choice. If someone prefers Windows and I don't have to support their use of Windows in any way, I'm happy that they don't use Linux. My goal is that everyone be informed of their choices and make good decisions. I think it's perverse to care about someone else's preferences. Linux has been easy enough to use for 80% of computer users (conditional on willingness to learn) so I really don't care what the market share number is. Linux is an option for most of the population. That's the number I care about. |
| herzeleid May 14, 2009 3:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:Linux has been easy enough to use for 80% of computer users (conditional on willingness to learn) so I really don't care what the market share number is. Linux is an option for most of the population. That's the number I care about.That's the real issue, isn't it. If we weren't in a hostile environment, it wouldn't matter, anyone could choose linux at any time, regardless of its current market share. But in practice, there is this notion of critical mass, and below that point, it is very easy for those opposed to the viability of competing OSes to cut off the air supply to the competition. For example, If 99.8% of your customers are using msie8 on ms windows vista, what manager wouldn't agree to a great deal on some sort of microsoft-only website package? Who cares about the tiny minority of freaks, right? Screw them, they can just get with the program and use ms windows. However, if alternative OSes and/or browsers constitute, say, more than 10% of the traffic to your website, any old bean counter would balk at shutting out that 10%. I'm not sure what the magic number is, but clearly, there's a point which is dangerous to fall below. I'm all for everyone using whatever OS they want, as long as it correctly implements the relevant standards. I'd be thrilled to one day see those numbers at 10% linux, 15% OSX and the rest ms windows. |
| bigg May 14, 2009 3:55 PM EDT |
@herzeleid: I'm in complete agreement about the importance of critical mass. IMO, though, we're already there. All this talk about 1% market share and all that is hooey. I go to Best Buy and buy an Acer laptop and everything works out of the box. I click the network icon to connect to my wireless network, type in the password, and I'm on. I've got Intel's open graphics. I read the story this morning about the NY Times Timesreader software. They boast in the video about supporting Windows, Linux and Mac. We're already there. The year of the Linux desktop usually refers to mass adoption. Maybe it's just semantics, but I think some Linux users really do care about market share numbers. |
| tuxchick May 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT |
Quoting: I think some Linux users really do care about market share numbers. I care about honesty in reporting, which in tech reporting is limited to LXer and a few other blogs. The real numbers are what they are no matter how hard anyone tries to spin them up or down. I get very tired of how BS seems to stick like glue, while good and accurate information is ignored. That NetApplications survey was akin to counting how many boxed Linuxes are sold at the Microsoft Company Store. |
| caitlyn May 14, 2009 4:03 PM EDT |
I actually almost completely agree with the last two posts. They only quibble is that I am not sure Linux has reached critical mass quite yet. It's close and netbooks have helped push it there. I still run into way too many people that have never heard of Linux. Maybe they heard the name and it just didn't register. I don't know. I just think we have a little way to go yet. We're close. |
| caitlyn May 14, 2009 4:07 PM EDT |
OK, my last agreement post was about what herzeleid and bigg had to say. tuxchick beat me to the send button :) I also agree with tuxchick. I love how Microsoft claimed a 96% share of netbooks based on brick and mortar store sales (no online numbers counted) in the U.S. only. When Asus, Dell, HP, and Acer are quoted the number seems to be holding around 25% Linux to 75% Windows, the same as last year's numbers. Linux is also gaining ground on desktops and full sized notebooks. There are "journalists" who see their livelihood as dependent on Windows and only Windows. They write piece after piece to try and convince the public that Linux has failed, is difficult to use in any case, and is not worth their consideration. It's all a crock and it makes all of us who write for at least part of our living look untrustworthy. We on LXer all know that tuxchick tells it like it is but the rest of the world doesn't. |
| tuxchick May 14, 2009 4:17 PM EDT |
Sorry caitlyn, my Internet is still way slow so I have time on my hands. AT&T seems to be having a hairball or two. |
| tuxtom May 15, 2009 4:13 AM EDT |
gus3, it's good to know I'm not the only one who's not in denial. |
| bigg May 15, 2009 5:02 AM EDT |
> Linux has failed, is difficult to use in any case, and is not worth their consideration The starting point for nearly all 'reviews' of Linux is to install it on a Windows machine. I can honestly say I've never seen a review for Windows that started with installing it, and certainly not installing it on a Linux machine. If there were not good preinstalled Linux options, this might make sense. I'd like to see the 'Linux is hard' 'journalists' install Windows. I just purchased a refurbished desktop for my mother and I can tell you it was a lot harder getting wireless and the other hardware going with XP. On Linux it's pretty much a matter of plug and play. > I care about honesty in reporting, which in tech reporting is limited to LXer and a few other blogs. I was actually referring in my comments to those who fantasize about Linux having 90% market share. I agree about the dishonesty. |
| jdixon May 15, 2009 7:44 AM EDT |
> I was actually referring in my comments to those who fantasize about Linux having 90% market share. I don't think Linux will ever have a 90% market share. Nor would it necessarily be a good thing if it did. |
| hkwint May 15, 2009 8:12 AM EDT |
Quoting:Could you provide some specific examples of stuff that required ms windows? Not denying what you're saying, just curious. Anything AutoDesk or SolidWorks; meaning any cheap 3D CAD application. No, there are no free alternatives. Yes, Pro/E and CATIA etc. run on UNIX, but they are 10 times more expensive. No, that AutoDesk / Solidworks stuff doesn't run under a Win guest in VMWare, especially not for corporate use (I tried). AutoDesk products have more versions than Wine. And believe me, when your company spent 10k+ per license on CAD software for Windows, they're not going to change to Linux if their employees are asking. Worse, there are not many branches of trade suffering as much from vendor lock-in by means of file formats than the CAD-branch. Especially when PLM is involved it's a total mess, only video formats and image formats come near. Conclusion: When your job is mechanical drawer, Windows is inevitable unless the employer has a gazillions of dollars and uses CATIA (Boeing is such an example AFAIK). I hope this is an exception, however I suspect the manual writers are locked in to Adobe to such a degree they couldn't do without Windows or Mac. |
| caitlyn May 18, 2009 3:24 PM EDT |
Corporate accounting software for Linux is really limited too. A small to midsized business can make do with QuickBooks at a cost of ~$3,000. Larger systems are still mainly Windows. The only exceptions I know of are really, really expensive. |
| Sander_Marechal May 18, 2009 6:11 PM EDT |
I think the problem with accounting software and the like is that it's also very country specific, with rules that need to be updated each year. Luckily there are a few SAAS and web-based accounting providers in The Netherlands. Not really Linux accounting packages, but at least you don't need to buy windows licenses and hardware for it. |
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