...and who will RMS offend this time?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Aug 26, 2009 2:28 PM EDT |
Enough said. |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM EDT |
I didn't want to be the one who started the thread. |
| flufferbeer Aug 26, 2009 3:09 PM EDT |
Stallman's the one getting caitlyn(ched) this time. OUCH! |
| caitlyn Aug 26, 2009 3:11 PM EDT |
I'm not lynching RMS. He has a history of offending people. He was accused of sexism after this presentation in the Canary Islands. I know tuxchick defended him but I, personally, from what I read felt his remarks were offensive. Actually, they probably were more offensive to religious people than anyone else. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 26, 2009 3:19 PM EDT |
@caitlyn I can't indict RMS for being offensive to religious people, because I am probably a lot more guilty than he is of being a heretic. |
| caitlyn Aug 26, 2009 3:22 PM EDT |
I'm not religious either though I am certainly not an atheist. I would expect Catholics and Orthodox Christians would have been the most offended. I don't have to be a Christian to recognize what he is mocking. |
| tuxchick Aug 26, 2009 3:22 PM EDT |
You know, I think the time has come for the RMS- critics to step up and offer an alternative. He has spent his life traveling and speaking about Free software, and that is a valuable service. We have the idiots like Lunduke and Lefty Schlesinger character-assassinating him all to heck, and I'm getting pretty bored with the anti-RMS contingent here on LXer. Every time his name is mentioned here comes the same old chorus of "ew icky." Enough already. RMS is one of the giants of Free software and technology freedom; without RMS and the FSF we would be at the mercy of the "if it's shiny it's OK!" crowd. He has done more for Linux and FOSS than all of us put together a thousand times over. If he is really an embarrassment and a detriment, then what's an alternative? Are any of you going to step up in his place? Probably not, given how many of you don't even value Free software and think the FSF is like all wack too. You know who's really wack, and that's the Ballmers, Ellisons, Jobs, etc. of the world who want a locked-down world with so many tollgates we'll end up signing our paychecks over to them to save time and hassle. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 26, 2009 3:24 PM EDT |
@tuxchic Well said. I don't always agree with RMS, nor always like the way he does things, but he has earned my respect over the years. |
| caitlyn Aug 26, 2009 3:27 PM EDT |
tc: You're right that I don't believe in the Free Software ideology that RMS espouses. I also think it is still fair to say that he offends people when he clearly does. Was Lefty Schlesinger guilty of character assassination or of reporting something you didn't want to read? I remember other women (Chani's blog immediately comes to mind) who felt that his comments were sexist. Even if they weren't they were undoubtedly anti-religious and about 95% of the human race believes in one religion or another. His shtick definitely does not help his cause. The reason why it bothers me so is that pragmatic Open Source advocates get lumped in with the FSF crowd and RMS' comments get used by some to dismiss the lot of us. I have never said that RMS doesn't do any good. I have said that his methods are questionable. |
| bigg Aug 26, 2009 3:33 PM EDT |
I'm a Catholic and found his previous comments to be bizarre, not offensive. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 26, 2009 3:34 PM EDT |
I'm pretty hard to offend... and in my personal opinion those who truly have "faith" should be as well. Only those who have doubts about their deity's omnipotence or their religion's fallibility should be concerned about what RMS's or my or any mere mortal's opinion is. |
| azerthoth Aug 26, 2009 3:36 PM EDT |
+1 caitlyn |
| jdixon Aug 26, 2009 3:44 PM EDT |
> ...and in my personal opinion those who truly have "faith" should be as well. Which has usually been the case in my experience. |
| tuxchick Aug 26, 2009 3:56 PM EDT |
caitlyn, Lefty was way over the top. That wasn't an honest criticism, IMO it was a slimy attack from a pro-Mono advocate who didn't care for RMS' warnings against using C# or Mono. Lefty was ranting in multiple forums and fanning the flames for all he was worth. RMS has his flaws and it's not the first time he's been accused of sexism; I've heard things from far more credible people than the ones stirring this current pot. It's not excusable, and it's a valid topic for discussion. I think there is a not-very-fine-line between "Yep, that was sexist and it was wrong and I wish he would quit it and it makes us look bad", and perpetrating flames and personal attacks, and trying to tear him down. I don't think so much of some of the things Linus has done, or many of the other giants of FOSS. Surprisingly, they're all humans. I think their achievements have earned them considerable respect, and I think that overmuch carping about their flaws does damage just like some folks think RMS hurts his own cause. No they're not off-limits, I just think we need to be careful about inadvertently fueling any anti-FOSS campaigns. |
| caitlyn Aug 26, 2009 4:03 PM EDT |
tc: I didn't read all the pro-Mono/anti-Mono nonsense that was floating around as it got way beyond any sort of reasonable discussion of the issues involved so I probably missed what's got you upset about Lefty. As you note I could have used other examples of things RMS said that I found offensive that were worse than this one instance. He does have a track record in this area and, to be quite honest, it isn't a good one. We have different opinions of RMS and we'll have to agree to disagree. He certainly doesn't represent me in any way, shape or form nor would I want him to. |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 4:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:I would expect Catholics and Orthodox Christians would have been the most offended.Belonging to the latter group, I was offended. It isn't that he espouses one thing; he actively goes out of his way to offend those outside the boundaries of what he deemed "acceptable." Must I, in addition to using only GPL'd software, also toe the atheist line in order to avoid RMS's wrath and sneers? Every appropriate response to that would violate LXer's TOS. For that matter, this entire thread is dangerously close to violating Paragraph 6 of the TOS. |
| bigg Aug 26, 2009 4:23 PM EDT |
> Belonging to the latter group, I was offended. If he offended you, that means you care what he thinks about your religion. I have found RMS to be an incredibly sharp individual in terms of identifying proprietary software traps. That's where it ends for me. |
| caitlyn Aug 26, 2009 4:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:Must I, in addition to using only GPL'd software, also toe the atheist line in order to avoid RMS's wrath and sneers? Every appropriate response to that would violate LXer's TOS. I agree with both points here completely. I'm also not an atheist. Someone who goes to hear a talk on Free Software by the leader of the movement probably doesn't expect to hear someone's religious beliefs (anyone's not necessarily theirs) belittled. Quoting:For that matter, this entire thread is dangerously close to violating Paragraph 6 of the TOS. Close, yes. So long as we don't devolve into debating religion we're probably not over the line. I'm one of those old fashioned types that believe that people's beliefs (or non-beliefs for that matter) should generally be respected. RMS doesn't do that and that is definitely part of what bothers me. |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 4:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:If he offended you, that means you care what he thinks about your religion. I have found RMS to be an incredibly sharp individual in terms of identifying proprietary software traps. That's where it ends for me.What really hacks me off is that he got paid. If he does that where I paid for a ticket, I'll demand a refund. And if they refuse, I'll call him out on it, loudly and in public, consequences be [deleted]. |
| jdixon Aug 26, 2009 4:53 PM EDT |
> RMS doesn't do that and that Definitely true. Of course, this same lack of respect of others' beliefs is probably also what gave him the willingness to go against the grain and start GNU/FSF. There are positive and negative aspects to most personality traits. Of course, lacking respect for others' beliefs doesn't mean you have to either express that lack or do so in an insulting manner. |
| dinotrac Aug 26, 2009 5:01 PM EDT |
Ummm, RMS is a bit of a jerk, but at least he's our jerk. Not to mention, sincere, passionate, energetic, knowledgeable, and real, real smart. Nothing wrong with being a bit "out there" if you're also amazingly productive and effective. |
| tuxchick Aug 26, 2009 5:09 PM EDT |
Quoting: RMS is a bit of a jerk, but at least he's our jerk. I have a story. Out here in redneckland there all kinds of "marriage=one man, one woman" bumper stickers, and Ten Commandment signs on lawns, and chaw-mouthed bubbas ranting about them godless homersekshuls. So I tug their sleeves and go "Er, but what about me?" "Oh, but you're one of us" and then back to the ranting. Humans are too weird for me. |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 5:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:Ummm, RMS is a bit of a jerk, but at least he's our jerk.But his powers of observation seem to be lacking. When the message gets buried by the presentation, something's wrong. The fact that RMS can't, or won't, pick up on this doesn't speak well of him. Linus Torvalds is also an atheist, and doesn't mind saying so, but he doesn't go out of his way to offend his hosts. |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 5:28 PM EDT |
Quoting:them godless homersekshuls.Atheists who are turned on watching The Simpsons? |
| tracyanne Aug 26, 2009 5:30 PM EDT |
Richard Stallman is my Hero. |
| jdixon Aug 26, 2009 8:39 PM EDT |
> But his powers of observation seem to be lacking. Yes, they are, and AFAIK, he freely admits this. > The fact that RMS can't, or won't, pick up on this doesn't speak well of him. As i understand things, it's not that he's made a conscious decision to be that way, it's that he's apparently incapable of doing so. If true, that means it doesn't either speak well or poorly of him, merely that's the way he is. Of course, being rather socially inept myself, I"m probalby more forgiving of this than most people. |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 8:59 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Based on what you've heard, do you think he'd respond to something put explicitly to him? Or, has someone already done so, and he just didn't care? |
| dinotrac Aug 26, 2009 11:02 PM EDT |
TC -- I experienced the same kind of thing living and working overseas, where I was told that I wasn't like "other" Americans. I know there's too much hate in this world, but I believe that a lot of what passes for hate is a variation on the old "friend or foe" response -- the more different you are from me the less likely you are to be just like me and hence the more likely you are to be "foe" instead of "friends". Once you become known as a human being instead of a bundle of "themness", you become ok, a friend. |
| jdixon Aug 26, 2009 11:03 PM EDT |
> ....do you think he'd respond to something put explicitly to him? Not enough information to say for certain. However, if I had to make a bet, I'd guess that it's been tried and failed. |
| tuxchick Aug 26, 2009 11:15 PM EDT |
Quoting: Quoted: them godless homersekshuls. If you landed here blindfolded you'd swear you'd been dropped in the deep South, some folks are so mush-mouthed. It's like everyone's auditioning for the part of Grandpa Amos McCoy in "The Real McCoys." |
| gus3 Aug 26, 2009 11:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:If you landed here blindfolded you'd swear you'd been dropped in the deep SouthI wasn't blindfolded, so I got to see that my car was the only vehicle at the gas station that wasn't a pickup truck or an SUV. Of course, by the same token, my car was the only one at the gas station that was getting 46 miles per gallon (which I didn't find out until three days later). |
| softwarejanitor Aug 27, 2009 11:48 AM EDT |
> As i understand things, it's not that he's made a conscious decision to be that way, it's that he's apparently
> incapable of doing so. If true, that means it doesn't either speak well or poorly of him, merely that's the way he is.
> Of course, being rather socially inept myself, I"m probalby more forgiving of this than most people. Well, RMS _is_ a "nerd", "geek", etc... It isn't surprising that he might have some awkward social traits, a lot of us do. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 27, 2009 12:57 PM EDT |
Gee. Here I am with the only thing about Stallman that bothers me is that he would make proprietary (aka closed) software illegal. RMS: Something to offend everyone. I'm glad to agree with him on the vast majority of stuff, and happy that the philosophy of voluntary interaction means I never have to be "offended" by him. And since when has not believing in the gods been offensive? I don't see how not believing in Marduk would offend anyone at all. |
| jdixon Aug 27, 2009 1:22 PM EDT |
> And since when has not believing in the gods been offensive? Not beleieving in gods isn't offensive (except perhaps to those gods, should they exist). Insulting and belittling those who do and/or their beliefs, is. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 27, 2009 1:44 PM EDT |
@Bob_Robertson I've never heard RMS actually call for proprietary software to be made illegal... He has called it immoral, but there are a lot of things that many people consider immoral that are legal. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT |
Janitor, scratch the surface, you'll find it pretty darned quickly. JD, as far as I know RMS insults and belittles everyone. Why would the theists think it's somehow especially bad to do it to them? Oh well, it does seem to be human nature to go hunting for something to be offended by. |
| ColonelPanik Aug 27, 2009 4:19 PM EDT |
New Mexico Linux Fest Dec. 19, 2009 Dicky Stallman will be the main speaker. http://www.newmexicognulinuxfest.org/ |
| caitlyn Aug 27, 2009 4:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:Oh well, it does seem to be human nature to go hunting for something to be offended by. Oh, B.S.! Some people are just plain offensive. Some even go out of their way to do so. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, you're one of my demonstration cases-in-point. |
| jdixon Aug 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDT |
> ...as far as I know RMS insults and belittles everyone. Possibly. I've only been made aware of his gender and religious insults. > Why would the theists think it's somehow especially bad to do it to them? I didn't say theists considered it offensive. I said it was offensive. Whether your theist or not should have nothing to do with the matter. With rare exceptions (such as religions requiring human sacrifice, as an extreme example), insulting and belittling other people's beliefs simply isn't polite or courteous. I think most people, even non-theists, agree with me. Of course, I've also been wrong before. |
| softwarejanitor Aug 27, 2009 5:20 PM EDT |
@jdixon No, actually I know a lot of people both theists and non-theists who don't seem to think that insulting or belittling other people's religious beliefs is a problem. I have to admit that I don't always hold my tongue when it comes to sharing my opinions on religion and I'm sure some people find my beliefs (or lack thereof) offensive. I know some people who enjoy and as caitlyn says go out of their way to argue about religion. I generally don't bother anymore, although part of the reason is that it has been a long time since I've heard any interesting arguments from the other side. |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 27, 2009 5:27 PM EDT |
caitlyn,
Quoting: ... about 95% of the human race believes in one religion or another...Belief != Truth I cannot begin to tell you how offended I am by your callous disregard for our true numbers (of skeptics and unbelievers), who are routinely denied the recognition we so rightly deserve. These calumnies so easily thrown at us, saying our numbers are no greater than the Linux Market Share. Lies, lies I tell you ... propagated by Satan no less. Opps, well untruths pedaled by unbelievers of Truth. I end my disquisition there. As always, Your Buddy Txt. |
| tuxchick Aug 27, 2009 5:37 PM EDT |
Getting back to the notion of being an effective speaker and Free Software advocate, dumb jokes, making fun of religion, and being obnoxious in any way don't help. |
| montezuma Aug 27, 2009 5:37 PM EDT |
Interesting environment there tc. In my case I work in NYC where every fourth person acts like RMS so I tend to judge him on his actions rather than his insecurities. It's what keeps me (partially) sane. There's a classic Simpsons episode about NYC I recall and it is worth remembering that RMS grew up in Manhattan. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 27, 2009 7:36 PM EDT |
> and it is worth remembering that RMS grew up in Manhattan. I wasn't aware of that, but it makes great sense. I respect the man, even when I disagree with him, for his tireless advocacy. Tireless to the point of pedantry, but then I have been accused of the same myself. |
| bigg Aug 27, 2009 7:41 PM EDT |
> I have been accused of the same myself. You're an advocate? I hadn't noticed. |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 27, 2009 8:21 PM EDT |
Keep this thread friendly and on-topic please? As for RMS, I've heared some people remark that he may be lightly autistic. That would explain a lot of things... |
| caitlyn Aug 27, 2009 9:44 PM EDT |
@Sander: Yes, it would. @Montezuma: I also grew up in New York City. Being a New Yorker doesn't mean you go around casually offending people just because you can. Tuxchick, as usual, hit the nail on the head. It just doesn't help his cause. |
| gus3 Aug 27, 2009 10:17 PM EDT |
@Sander: I've also heard the rumor that RMS has Asperger's Syndrome, but there's no public indication of a diagnosis available on teh intarwebs. |
| jdixon Aug 27, 2009 11:59 PM EDT |
> No, actually I know a lot of people both theists and non-theists who don't seem to think that insulting or belittling other people's religious beliefs is a problem. I know a couple myself, but that's anecdotal. The simple fact is that most people don't think it's OK to belittle other people's religious beliefs. This is at least partially because societies have learned the hard way that doing so has a way of leading to rather nasty conflicts. .> ....it is worth remembering that RMS grew up in Manhattan. True. That's not the most polite place to grow up. > I've heared some people remark that he may be lightly autistic. > I've also heard the rumor that RMS has Asperger's Syndrome, I've also heard both. I suspect the latter is true, as it would match his actions. IMO, autism is an overused diagnosis, which is a shame given how terrible true autism is. |
| krisum Aug 28, 2009 12:51 AM EDT |
Unfortunately RMS is routinely offensive and lacks basic minimum knowledge of social behaviour. Some of his irrational supporters, however, will go to any lengths to justify his offensive behaviour like even this: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 28, 2009 6:06 PM EDT |
> RMS is routinely offensive and lacks basic minimum knowledge of social behaviour. By Cromm, people, have you already forgotten the basic job description of "engineer"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmYDgncMhXw |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 28, 2009 6:44 PM EDT |
Haha Bob. That video is awesome :-D |
| tracyanne Aug 28, 2009 7:06 PM EDT |
My partner and I just read the article at http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms and couldn't stop laughing. Richard Stallman has been voted an honorary member of our household. The comments that follow the article are illuminating. It seems that not everyone agrees with the primary thrust of this thread. Stallman is in my opinion spot on. The fact that some people are offended by his comments, does not make him a rude or socially lacking personality. His comments are actually quite civil, I have never yet come across any comment where he was not civil (that does not mean that people will not be offended, as indeed many are, I think they need to spend some time in introspection) |
| montezuma Aug 28, 2009 7:27 PM EDT |
@caitlyn I'm not excusing obnoxious behavior and remember I did say 75% of New Yorkers aren't. It is my observation though that there are a lot of obnoxious people in NYC who make big contributions to the world. The contradiction of that is what makes NYC so hard to adjust to. RMS fits that mould. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 28, 2009 7:33 PM EDT |
"The reasonable man adapts himself to circumstances, the unreasonable man expects circumstances to adapt themselves to him. Therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men." --G.B.Shaw |
| gus3 Aug 28, 2009 7:34 PM EDT |
Quoting:Richard Stallman has been voted an honorary member of our household.No problem here, you can have him! |
| gus3 Aug 28, 2009 7:41 PM EDT |
@Bob: The quote from my fortunes file is:Quoting:The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.But I'm also reminded of one from Mary Withers: Quoting:It is true that great thinkers and innovators and Bringers of Light tend to p--- people off. But that doesn't mean that, just because you p--- people off, you are a great thinker and innovator and Bringer of Light. You might just be a huge throbbing bleeding a--h---.[url=http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:tB-7fk6sbY4J:www.planetoid.org/about/quotes.shtml mary withers planetoid&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a]http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:tB-7fk6sbY4J:www.planet...[/url] |
| tracyanne Aug 28, 2009 9:02 PM EDT |
My pleasure gus, I reckon between the three of us we could have a fun barbie on a hot Saturday afternoon. I reckon we'd really get sparkin. Mind you in the article it wasn't what RMS said that made us laugh, it was the comments the writer made. I suppose once one has had a humourectomy, one stops noticing how ridiculous one sounds. My partner, who posts as Constable_Angua on a bunch of social sites, reckons she'd have RMS round for Tea and Scones any day of the week. |
| gus3 Aug 28, 2009 9:12 PM EDT |
A Pratchett fan? Kewl. |
| tracyanne Aug 28, 2009 9:37 PM EDT |
yep Pratchett fan, Favourite colour Octarine. |
| krisum Aug 29, 2009 12:46 AM EDT |
@tracyanne
Quoting: The comments that follow the article are illuminating.illuminating? How supporters will go to any lengths with bizarre logic is not particularly illuminating to me. Quoting: Stallman is in my opinion spot on. The fact that some people are offended by his comments, does not make him a rude or socially lacking personality.Actually it does, because many people are routinely offended by his comments and social behaviour it means that he is a rude and socially lacking. Maybe on a different planet such comments are not rude. Ask Stefan in this instance. RMS considers it okay to be offensive to others wherever his ideas are concerned. Just because in this instance his ideas may match yours does not make the comments civil. Its also a fact that many great people left FSF for precisely these reasons. If he were really the leader of the FOSS community it would have been quite embarrassing for me and all others that I know of. Fortunately, barring some, he has been sidelined in most places. |
| tracyanne Aug 29, 2009 5:37 AM EDT |
Well Krisum lets look at some Comments from RMS. In response to Stefan saying he can't work on a project at this time, because... Quoting:I just got a baby girl and am kind of swamped. RMS replies Quoting:I am sorry to hear it. Unless someone else can figure these things out, I guess the release has to wait until you have time. Now it's obvious to me that he's be sarcastic, but there is nothing uncivil or insulting or rude about his comment. It looks to me that he has carefully thought of exactly how he wants to state his displeasure, without, being uncivil. You and the writer, may, as you choose take umbridge at RMS's apparent disregard for what most people might consider an important event in someone's life. But at no point was he anything but civil. He did not lower himself to using insulting language, or anyway flame the person, he simply voiced his displeasure in a polite and civil, and thought out manner. In response to Nick; congratulating Stefan, RMS writes Quoting:It doesn’t take special talents to reproduce—even plants can do it. On the other hand, contributing to a program like Emacs takes real skill. That is really something to be proud of. A simple statement of fact. He also fails, once again to use insulting language, he remains entirely civil. Once again he makes his displeasure know, but does not reduce himself to rudeness ot insulting behaviour. His response is clearly well thought out. It is cutting, but never rude. Now I quite accept that there are people who are quite insulted by this, but that is their problem, not RMS's. Those who choose to be insulted by such civility really do need to spend some time asking themselves probing questions. I think what all of this demonstrates is the lengths some people will go to, to feel insulted. |
| jdixon Aug 29, 2009 6:58 AM EDT |
> It doesn’t take special talents to reproduce—even plants can do it. Absolutely correct. And completely missing the point. It's not the reproduction that's important, it's the raising the child afterwards. Plants don't do that. > That is really something to be proud of. For most people, having and raising their children is the most important thing they will do in their lives. It's far more important and more to be proud of than emacs ever will be. If I were Stefan, I'd never work on another project for or with Richard again. > It helps more people, too. Emacs has helped more people than Jonas Salk or Edward Jenner? It has given more enjoyment than Wolfgang Mozart or Johann Bach? I very much doubt it. I doubt it ever will. > A simple statement of fact. Yes. A completely wrong one. As a general rule, people are more important than things. > Now I quite accept that there are people who are quite insulted by this, but that is their problem, not RMS's. I agree completely. A problem which they usually choose to solve by not having anything to do with Richard. A solution which satisfies both parties. Of course, they may also choose not to have anything to do with FOSS as a result. > Those who choose to be insulted by such civility really do need to spend some time asking themselves probing questions. And those who don't understand why it's insulting need to ask themselves even more probing questions. I won't go as far as a recent discussion and call it uncivil though. You are correct, Richard was quite civil, though that's not a complement. Civility is not quite the same thing as politeness or courtesy. > I think what all of this demonstrates is the lengths some people wil l go to, to feel insulted. While I think it representa a complete lack of empathy and understanding on Richard's part.. Oh well. |
| dinotrac Aug 29, 2009 8:22 AM EDT |
Jdixon - What you said. I suspect my 3 daughters would all agree. |
| tracyanne Aug 29, 2009 9:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:You are correct, Richard was quite civil, though that's not a complement. Civility is not quite the same thing as politeness or courtesy Actually it is. Being civil requires that one understand, and use politeness and courtesy. What it does not imply is that one wishes to spare the other person's feelings, Clearly RMS, in the case of the examples I used, would rather the Emacs list be used for the purpose of discussing Emacs, not social bonding, and he is not about to spare anyone's feelings to make that point clear. On the other hand he never failed to use polite and courteous language - in other words, he was at all times civil. It's interesting here that, in the case of the examples I used, we don't hear complaints about RMS's manner from those who were ot the receiving end of RMS's comments, but rather from people who don't appear to have anything to do with the list, spectators, who seem hell bent on being insulted. |
| dinotrac Aug 29, 2009 9:57 AM EDT |
ta - To sum up: RMS was not merely a jerk, but, having given careful and complete consideration to his words, was a complete and total anal orifice. |
| jdixon Aug 29, 2009 10:17 AM EDT |
> Being civil requires that one understand, and use politeness and courtesy Not the way the term has historically been used, no. However, if that's the definition you're using, we'll just have to disagree. |
| gus3 Aug 29, 2009 10:51 AM EDT |
Let's say that the worst thing happens, from the perspective of the project: Stefan leaves. There are two ways for that to happen, voluntarily and involuntarily. If he decides to leave voluntarily, the professional thing to do is express gratitude for the work done, then find a replacement. If he's leaving involuntarily, it could be because he's being severed from the project. In that case, the professional thing to do is say nothing. In any other case, it's still a good idea to show some gratitude for the effort. It is never appropriate to say, "What the hell are you doing having sex? Now you've got a kid. This project is more important than that!" Which is the distilled essence of RMS's words. |
| jdixon Aug 29, 2009 10:56 AM EDT |
> Which is the distilled essence of RMS's words. Yep. "Emacs is more important than your daughter" doesn't sit well with most people. I have no doubt Richard considers it true, but thinking so and saying so are two completely different things, and there's no reason Stefan or anyone else should be expected to agree with him. |
| bigg Aug 29, 2009 11:08 AM EDT |
> It doesn’t take special talents to reproduce—even plants can do it. On the other hand, contributing to a program like Emacs takes real skill. That is really something to be proud of. This is mixing apples and oranges. He's talking about doing something in the first case, and doing something well in the second. As far as writing programs, I can provide code samples that could just as well have been written by a plant. But the whole argument that you are a parent because you want to show off your 'special talents' in order to 'be proud' is flawed. I would also hope that someone writing software is interested in more than showing off his special talents, because a whole lot of programming is necessary but requires little talent. There are many thousands of projects out there that are half-done and not active because the interesting half is finished. |
| caitlyn Aug 29, 2009 12:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:I agree completely. A problem which they usually choose to solve by not having anything to do with Richard. A solution which satisfies both parties. Of course, they may also choose not to have anything to do with FOSS as a result. What jdixon said here is probably the most important reason for starting this thread in the first place. I am one of those who believe RMS often does harm to the very movement he claims to represent and lead. It's a pity because RMS isn't FOSS but rather one of the originators of the movement. I can respect what he's accomplished but I have real problems with the way he presents himself and FOSS in general. |
| azerthoth Aug 29, 2009 12:59 PM EDT |
Silence can be construed as either wisdom or ignorance, its when you open your mouth that all doubt is removed. RMS has a long history of doing the later. |
| Microbiologist Aug 29, 2009 2:02 PM EDT |
RMS is a great leader.
He's a nerd, and a bit socially impaired, but there are few people as dedicated to a cause than him. I have a firm belief that most people who claim offense at his words, display a profound lack of understanding. His words, which were claimed to be sexist, were not meant to be taken at face value, and grossly twisted out of context by the complainants. Anyway, its not possible to please everybody. There will always be 'sensitive' attention suckers and pseudo-intellectuals lacking a sense of humour to get offended by RMS. |
| jdixon Aug 29, 2009 2:07 PM EDT |
> What jdixon said here is probably the most important reason for starting this thread in the first place. Well, obviously I agree. :) Richard is a jerk, there's no point in saying or pretending that he isn't, and his being a jerk negatively impacts FOSS. All of these things are true. That said, I don't believe Richard is a jerk because he wants to be one. There appear to be reasons he's that way, and they're not under his control. And in spite of these limitations, he does a lot of good. Without Richard Stallman, there would be no GNU project, ther would be no FSF, there would be no GPL, and there would likely be no Linux as we know it. All of these are good things, and they all exist because he would not accept the status quo. It's entirely likely that these two aspects of his personality are inexorably linked. To me, it seems wise to reflect that nobody's perfect (well, except for Dino) and recognize his good points while acknowledging his faults. On any scale I can think of, his contributions to FOSS far outweigh any harm he does; and on the scale of possible human behavior, his faults are minor. |
| dinotrac Aug 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT |
---well, except for Dino) I'm not perfect, either. Used to be, but it got too difficult to maintain my incredible humility, so I introduced an imperfection, albeit a small one, into the mix. |
| tuxchick Aug 29, 2009 2:40 PM EDT |
Yes, and that would be your unfitness as a grilled steak. |
| azerthoth Aug 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT |
Being dedicated to a cause does not make a great person, otherwise Stalin, McCarthy, Bin Laden, etc would also all fall into the category of great people. I am not likening RMS to any of those, just as an example of dedication to a cause. Interestingly enough though, most of the notable's through history that were dedicated to a cause, also used the argument that the destruction of $PET_PEEVE was needed for the greater good of humanity. As to pseudo-intellectuals, a lack of critical thinking skills is also a telling sign, as your post so dramatically shows. See now this is where tossing generic labels around to support your point, or denigrates those who disagree with you becomes a real issue. Someone is bound to come along and stand your point on its head. |
| gus3 Aug 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT |
Quoting:On any scale I can think of, his contributions to FOSS far outweigh any harm he doesSorry, extreme callousness in public towards someone who has a new baby to tend to, does a tremendous amount of harm. It drives people away, and discourages people from joining. |
| dinotrac Aug 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT |
tc - ;0) |
| dinotrac Aug 29, 2009 3:02 PM EDT |
gus3 - Man. I agree with you wholeheartedly, except that I disagree with you strongly. His fault, not his fault, controllable, not controllable, no matter. RMS is a royal jerk whether he means to be or not. I, for one, believe that he means to be one because he is smart enough not to be one -- if he wants to. He thinks his positions through thoroughly and chooses his words carefully. He has the ability, should he so choose, to be insincerely nice in those situations where he just doesn't get the society thing. But -- The number of people who encounter him personally is one helluva lot smaller than the number of people who encounter the things he's created and taken advantage of the things he's touched. Lots of people use GPL'd software, emacs, GNU utilities, free KDE, etc, without even knowing who he is. More harm than good? Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability. |
| jdixon Aug 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT |
> I'm not perfect, either. I'll try to remember, Dino. I wouldn't want to go around giving you credit you don't deserve. It might cause further problems for your humility. :) > Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability. Agreed. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 29, 2009 3:17 PM EDT |
> Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability.
Yay! Politics! ahem... But seriously, ah, oh. I've already said what I wanted to say about RMS. Hope everyone is having a good Saturday. |
| caitlyn Aug 29, 2009 3:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:There will always be 'sensitive' attention suckers and pseudo-intellectuals lacking a sense of humour to get offended by RMS. There will also always be insensitive clods who dismiss things like racism and religious intolerance. They are part of a very real problem in society today. |
| dinotrac Aug 29, 2009 3:23 PM EDT |
BR -- Yeah, but that kind of thinking is exactly what I'd expect from someone who doesn't believe in Marduk. |
| krisum Aug 29, 2009 3:33 PM EDT |
@tracyanne Its kind of odd to be arguing on the civility of RMSs replies. My opinion of those comments is the same as most others here and close to what Dino said. Nearly all others who I know think similarly of those comments (in a different place and time one could find those humorous though RMS was, of course, dead serious). Clearly social behaviour is with regards to what others think of a person's behaviour even though one may be perfect in own estimation. (I have reordered the quotes to fit in the continuity of responses better) Quoting: Clearly RMS, in the case of the examples I used, would rather the Emacs list be used for the purpose of discussing Emacs, not social bonding, and he is not about to spare anyone's feelings to make that point clear. On the other hand he never failed to use polite and courteous language - in other words, he was at all times civil.How do you come to the conclusion that Stefan was trying anything with regards to "social bonding"? If you pay a little attention you will see that Stefan was just expressing the reason why he will not be able to do what RMS asked of him at that point. Then your contention that only cursing can show lack of civility is incorrect in all cultures I know of; being courteous is definitely way beyond RMSs grasp (at least where his ideas are concerned) so will not even try to go into that. Earlier you contradicted yourself (i.e. civility/politeness is w.r.t. language) with this: Quoting: Actually it is. Being civil requires that one understandIf RMS would have had even an iota of human understanding then he would have known that Stefan considers this an important event in his life and even if RMS thinks it to be an improper act he would have kept his mouth shut on that giving a little understanding to Stefan's feelings. That I consider RMSs position itself to be foolish and irrational in this instance (as some others on this forum have pointed out) is besides the point. Quoting: What it does not imply is that one wishes to spare the other person's feelingsReally? So politeness and civility is not about giving due consideration to other's feelings (particularly colleagues in this instance)? |
| krisum Aug 29, 2009 3:43 PM EDT |
@dinoQuoting: The number of people who encounter him personally is one helluva lot smaller than the number of people who encounter the things he's created and taken advantage of the things he's touched.Agreed. But you never know what the man will say in tours like these on unrelated topics (and offend people like Caitlyn mentions). |
| KernelShepard Aug 29, 2009 5:49 PM EDT |
That wasn't an honest criticism, IMO it was a slimy attack from a pro-Mono advocate who didn't care for RMS' warnings against using C# or Mono. I keep hearing this but I honestly do not see any Mono connection with David Schlesinger. Can someone please point out what I am missing? I've looked over David Schlesinger's Blog and he doesn't seem to advocate the use of Mono at all. He doesn't even appear to have written any Mono software. And he doesn't appear to be at all involved with the Mono project. It seems to me the only people accusing Mono folks of trying to smear RMS are the people trying to smear Mono. Please, tuxchick, share with us your evidence that Mr. Schlesinger is a Mono advocate? Or is it like I suggested, an attempt to smear Mono with a lie? |
| tracyanne Aug 29, 2009 6:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:How do you come to the conclusion that Stefan was trying anything with regards to "social bonding"? If you pay a little attention you will see that Stefan was just expressing the reason why he will not be able to do what RMS asked of him at that point. I think you support my point about RMS's use of polite language quite well, and the lengths people will go to find offence. I never stated that Stefan was social bonding, of course the late post by another member offering congratulations is an act of social bonding, as indeed were the posts RMS referred to in later quotes, in the article I referenced, and quoted from. Quoting:Earlier you contradicted yourself (i.e. civility/politeness is w.r.t. language) with this: Quoted: Actually I have not contradicted myself. There is, in fact, no indication that RMS does not understand that this is an important event in Stefan's life. There is, on the other hand many clear indications that RMS is disappointed, unhappy, irritated, etc that Stefan considers this event as more important than Emacs. But at no time do we see RMS using insults, rudeness, or any of the other things that spectators have taken umbridge with. Instead what we see is a civil, polite, thoughtful statement voicing that displeasure. and later a similarly civil polite and thoughtful statement making known his displeasure that the Emacs list is being used for Social Bonding (the act of offering congratulations for what RMS describes as something that requires no special talent, and as both Constable_Angua and myself have done that thing that requires no special talent, we both have to agree with RMS on that point), this comment was quite in keeping with other similar statements he had made with respect to social binding. We get so many comments about how he insults people, but the only people I'm seeing who seem to be insulted by RMS's comments are the spectators. Most of whom in my experience seem to find insult in the most trivial of things, who seem to me to go out of their way to find insult. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 29, 2009 7:32 PM EDT |
> who seem to me to go out of their way to find insult. It never fails to amaze me just how "offended" some people want to be. |
| gus3 Aug 29, 2009 8:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:There is, on the other hand many clear indications that RMS is disappointed, unhappy, irritated, etc that Stefan considers this event as more important than Emacs.Then I suggest RMS explain this to Stefan's wife. Stefan isn't married to Richard Stallman, or Emacs. If Stallman can't accept that, it isn't Stefan's problem. It certainly mustn't become Stefan's daughter's problem, which is the logical end result of what RMS is expressing. |
| tracyanne Aug 29, 2009 10:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:Stefan isn't married to Richard Stallman, or Emacs. Indeed, he is not. Quoting:If Stallman can't accept that, it isn't Stefan's problem. I don't see anywhere that RMS said it was Stefan's problem. Quoting:It certainly mustn't become Stefan's daughter's problem, Nor do I see anywhere that RMS implied it was Stefan's daughter's problem. Quoting:which is the logical end result of what RMS is expressing. Well, actually no, it's not. Except perhaps in the mind of those who choose to be insulted by RMS's statements. What I do see is a very clear expression of displeasure, that Emacs has been deemed less important, by Stefan, than Emacs, and the implication that it must wait while Stefan does the family thing, followed by acceptance that Emacs will have to wait. The additional material that certain people like to take umbrige over relates to what RMS would prefer the Emacs Lists be used for, and I don't see anything unreasonable about the request that people refrain from Social Bonding on the Emacs list. Many employers would not have been as civil as RMS, who merely requests that people not do it, and may well be constrained by the fact that the people concerned are not employees, but are instead volunteers, has been, in similar situations. |
| krisum Aug 30, 2009 3:15 AM EDT |
@tracyanneQuoting: I think you support my point about RMS's use of polite language quite well, and the lengths people will go to find offence.It amazes me to see the bizarre lengths supporters will go to defend a person. The offence was plainly obvious for most people. He was much more than just a jerk in this instance. Quoting: I never stated that Stefan was social bonding, of course the late post by another member offering congratulations is an act of social bondingIf that were the case then RMS could have rather just said that there is no need for such messages on emacs list to the person who posted it. He rather chose to insult Stefan by talking about talents of reproduction and such. Why do you feel the need to put words in the mouth of RMS in this instance? For those who have seen RMSs dealings for any period of time, it was clear that RMS chose those comments because he thinks that reproduction is an improper act and would have done such on any other mailing list. Quoting: Actually I have not contradicted myself.You did. Because first you claimed that civility is about understanding others, but then went on about how civility is only about non-abusive language. Quoting: But at no time do we see RMS using insults, rudeness, or any of the other thingsNo, you mistake rudeness for abusive language. Talking about parenting as being an improper reproductive skill to a colleague who is parenting a child is way beyond just rude. Quoting: RMS describes as something that requires no special talentAnd an incorrect one at that, since parenting of a child is a special skill which RMS seems to utterly lack. Quoting: but the only people I'm seeing who seem to be insulted by RMS's comments are the spectatorsWhat makes you think that I, for example, would be insulted by his comments? The author of the piece thinks it to be a "lamentable tragedy of RMS". Likewise I just think that he is a royal fool when it comes to many aspects of social interaction. |
| tracyanne Aug 30, 2009 4:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:It amazes me to see the bizarre lengths supporters will go to defend a person. [quote] If you reread his comments you will notice that he did not mention bringing up a child. Once again he is accused of something he never said. Those who choose to be insulted by RMS's comments seem to spend inordinate amounts of time reading into his pronouncements many things that are neither said nor implied. Quoting:If that were the case then RMS could have rather just said that there is no need for such messages on emacs list to the person who posted it. He rather chose to insult Stefan by talking about talents of reproduction and such. I can assure you that reproduction of the species requires no special talents. RMS is quite correct. I have no idea what his opinion is or what talents he believes are required to bring up a child to adulthood. Quoting:Why do you feel the need to put words in the mouth of RMS in this instance? I have added nothing to what RMS has said. On the other hand those who seek to find insult in his pronouncements seem to take special gee in adding words and meanings that he never spoke, or wrote, or obviously never intended. I find it amusing, that so many spend so much time reading their prejudices into his words. |
| jdixon Aug 30, 2009 8:00 AM EDT |
> I find it amusing, that so many spend so much time reading their prejudices into his words. While I find it amusing that some can read the same words and not comprehend their clear meaning. But that's the way it is. |
| tracyanne Aug 30, 2009 8:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:While I find it amusing that some can read the same words and not comprehend their clear meaning. Yes, it is very amusing isn't it. And unfortunately that is the way life is. |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 30, 2009 8:20 AM EDT |
May I suggest that this thread end with the content of the first post, i.e. Quoting:Enough said., because now: Too much has been said. |
| krisum Aug 30, 2009 8:44 AM EDT |
With due apologies to TxtEdMacs I will post one last comment.Quoting: If you reread his comments you will notice that he did not mention bringing up a child.I hope RMS is intelligent enough to realize that Stefan was not swamped due to the act of reproduction rather due to parenting of the new born and since he was commenting on the unavailability of Stefan for the task at hand there is only one meaning to be made out of it. OTOH if he really was talking about the act of reproduction it would be very silly of him since Stefan was busy due to something else. |
| Bob_Robertson Aug 30, 2009 9:04 AM EDT |
> And unfortunately that is the way life is. The "mind filter". Likely Buddhist in concept. Prejudice, experience, preferences, desires, everything we see and hear gets filtered through our minds first, so what we see and hear isn't just what is there or said. Things get added, subtracted, altered to fit what we expect or what we want. Babel. (or maybe just me finally getting near the end of Stephenson's _Snow Crash_) |
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