RE:Dell Still pricing Linux higher than Windows on same hard
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| Author | Content |
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| tushargok Mar 16, 2010 6:13 AM EDT |
I had exactly the same problem. I wanted to buy a Linux laptop and was hoping that I will get a good cheap price for Linux based laptops over windows. Unfortunately that is not the case. Windows 7 laptop was way to cheaper for same hardware. I ended up buying HP Pavilion dv6-2150us instead of Dell. I guess the cr@pware that was shipped with my laptop subsidizes the price. 60 days MS Office, Norton AV for 90 days, Norton Backup 60 days, HP Games and many more... |
| HoTMetaL Mar 16, 2010 6:39 AM EDT |
Hoping for a "good, cheap price" for a Linux-based notebook implies that Linux notebooks should be deeply discounted. Hell, I'd be more than willing to pay the same amount for Linux as others do for Windows, but I'll be damned if I'll ever spend more for a hardware-identical model with Windows preinstalled, or ever buy another Microsoft license. Those of you who buy Windows notebooks and keep your Microsoft licenses only reinforce bad vendor practices. You may install Linux the moment your shiny new notebook hits your hands, but as far as everyone else connected to your new purchase is concerned, you are a Windows user. |
| tracyanne Mar 16, 2010 6:57 AM EDT |
Dell were not actually offering me a Linux powered laptop. They were offering me a laptop with FreeDOS, at a price higher than the same hardware with Windows. I would have had to install Linux after sale. If they had offered the same price, no worries, if they had offered a lower price, say the price they were offering Windows at less the Windows License, No Worries, but instead they offered it at a higher price. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 16, 2010 8:35 AM EDT |
> I guess the cr@pware that was shipped with my laptop subsidizes the price. I think that is exactly what is happening. Look at it from Dell's position. The cost of a Linux/FreeDOS install is greater because there are no kickbacks. They have to charge more. I don't _blame_ them for that. What I put squarely in their lap is the also-ran status they relegate to Linux/FreeDOS. If they put it right up front, pushing the hardware and then "Comes with the following software options!" That would be fine. However, I am left to wonder if the OEM contract they have with MS stipulates that Dell must recommend Windows at every turn, because they certainly do so. Sure, most Linux people are going to buy the Windows install anyway, because it's worth the time and hassle to install Linux for the money saved through the Windows kick-backs. We're accustomed to having to install the systems we prefer. And with the plethora of Linux distributions, there is no way Dell could have the same "one size fits all" sales channel that they do with Windows. But the result of selling Linux as a software options is that Dell has to be certain that all their hardware is supported, FIRST. How much is THAT worth? |
| Jeff91 Mar 16, 2010 9:53 AM EDT |
This is why I try to buy my laptops with out operating systems pre-installed. Check out powernotebooks.com - they are great over there :) ~Jeff |
| dinotrac Mar 16, 2010 10:04 AM EDT |
Bob and Jeff - You hit the nail dead-on with a great big hammer. Dell's pricing is based on Dell's costs. If Dell doesn't have the deal you want, buy from somebody else. Don't whine. If you really want that Dell, buy it. The fact that Dell's overall cost structure makes it cheaper with Windows must reflect some pretty clever business decisions on Dell's part if they are able to make such a box attractive to a Linux user. |
| jdixon Mar 16, 2010 10:26 AM EDT |
> If Dell doesn't have the deal you want, buy from somebody else. Since they currently don't offer any home desktop models with Linux, they don't. So it's back to building my own for the time being. :( At least I managed to get my Mini-9 while they were still making them. |
| dinotrac Mar 16, 2010 10:32 AM EDT |
jdixon - Love my Mini-9. I've even gotten used to the keyboard. It was great taking the train into Chicago, and being able just to throw it into my backpack -- and having to check to be sure it was in there! |
| flufferbeer Mar 16, 2010 12:02 PM EDT |
@Bob_Robertson,
I mosttly agree with you. You wrote:
"Sure, most Linux people are going to buy the Windows install anyway, because it's worth the time and hassle to install Linux for the money saved through the Windows kick-backs." IIRC, that's the way its ALWAYS seemed to be; even going way back to buying that Lo$edow$9x/2K desktop with its included Dell warranty&support and then eventually dual-booting this with Red Hat, Fedora Core, or whatever-other-distro Linux! Nowadays with OpenOffice and all the key F/OSS apps up-to-date, who really needs many (if any at all) apps on that less expensive Dell desktop/laptop pre-installed with Lo$edow$ ??!! --- just wipeout this OS completely, install Linux, and toss out that M$ license ASAP. @HoTMetaL, You wrote: "Those of you who buy Windows notebooks and keep your Microsoft licenses only reinforce bad vendor practices. You may install Linux the moment your shiny new notebook hits your hands, but as far as everyone else connected to your new purchase is concerned, you are a Windows user." My issue here is that you DONT HAVE TO be considered a Lo$edow$ user here! No, no no! Go ahead and BUY that shiny new Dell notebook with the rotten OS on it, INSTALL Linux on it, and TOSS the evil OS's license. Then show and tell everyone else "connected to your new purchase" that you've got Linux and NOT Lo$edow$....even do this to the Dell registration&support powers that be!!!! Even when Dell reports back to its puppetmasters that it sold yet another Lo$edow$-licensed machine, eventually the truth'll come out that many of its machine-purchasers are A-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y and R-E-A-L-L-Y using just Linux. Eventually for certain, but that will end up "sticking it to the Dell man" just fine!!! My 2c |
| tuxchick Mar 16, 2010 12:10 PM EDT |
How is it sticking it to the man when you buy a Windows license when you want to use Linux? Microsoft still gets the money, and it counts as a Windows sale. If you get a refund for Windows, that sticks it to both Microsoft and the OEM. |
| gus3 Mar 16, 2010 12:33 PM EDT |
Because the suits at MickeySoft know, their registered license key database is a lot smaller (by millions?) than the number of licenses sold. Just like gift certificates, there are always those that don't get redeemed. But why should the sellers care? They already have the money. |
| flufferbeer Mar 16, 2010 1:26 PM EDT |
@tuxchick
I can understand how you think that Micro$uck$ "still gets the money" , by our buying that discounted notebook.
OTOH, as gus3 brings out, who exactly is the "it" you are assuming in "it counts as a Windows sale" ??
The suits at Micro$uck$/MickeySoft know quite well that "their registered license key database is a lot smaller (by millions?) than the number of licenses sold."
And aren't there alternate methods for registering the type of OS used (versus assuming that a Micro$uck$ OS is automatically being used) ?? You wrote: "If you get a refund for Windows, that sticks it to both Microsoft and the OEM." IF, IF, IF; there's something definitely iffy about this :) As gus3 wrote as far as Dell "why should the sellers care? They already have the money." And how do you know FOR CERTAIN that you'll even GET that M$ refund you so desire, even if you TRY to get this from M$ before/after you've wiped out Lo$edow$ ?? I'm certain that dinotrac and others carefully review the M$ EULAs to equip themselves to get such refunds, but have YOU YOURSELF carefully reviewed the latest EULAs with all their minute, detailed stipulations and pre-conditions ?? OH NO ??! We thought not! -fb |
| tuxchick Mar 16, 2010 1:36 PM EDT |
flufferbeer, are you serious? Of course it counts as a windows sale, and all those analysts like Gartner and IDC dutifully tally it as a Windows sale, and MS' pet press brigades print stories about "Windows sales were $foo last quarter, an increase of $foo over the previous quarter, while Linux continues to lag far behind." And money goes to Redmond. Lose-lose all the way. You are right that getting a Windows refund is iffy. That is why I either build my own boxes, or buy from an independent Linux vendor, so I never pay for a Windows license in the first place. |
| tuxchick Mar 16, 2010 1:46 PM EDT |
Oh, and before someone gets all excited how I'm being mean to people who buy Windows PCs and then remove Windows to run Linux-- everyone makes their own choices. Maybe it's their only choice, maybe their finances are in a condition where a few dollars' saving matters. For me, as long as I have a choice to make OEM Linux purchases, that sends a direct message that there is a demand for OEM Linux, that there are customers who refuse to pay the Windows tax, and that we do want real choice in the computer marketplace. Change doesn't happen from supporting the status quo. |
| flufferbeer Mar 16, 2010 2:13 PM EDT |
@tuxchick,
Are YOU serious that there are NO alternate and widely accepted methods for registering the type of OS used on Dell machines other than Gartner's and IDC's tallying this up as a Lo$edow$ sale ??
And relatedly, have you seen some of the support tickets on those who ALREADY HAVE pre-installed Lo$edow$
Of course not! Change doesn't happen from supporting the status quo. We think that change can be affected on Dell (at least) by what I already wrote: Go ahead and BUY that shiny new Dell notebook with the rotten OS on it -- as long as it as dirt-cheap as possible, INSTALL Linux on it, and TOSS the evil OS's license. Then show and tell everyone else "connected to your new purchase" that you've got Linux and NOT Lo$edow$....even do this to the Dell registration&support powers that be!!!! And even when Dell reports back to its puppetmasters that it sold yet another Lo$edow$-licensed machine, eventually the truth'll come out that many of its machine-purchasers are A-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y and R-E-A-L-L-Y using just Linux. Eventually for certain, but that will end up "sticking it to the Dell man" just fine!!! That "sticking it to the Dell man" eventuality WILL CERTAINLY arise, whether through this show&tell publicity or whether tuxchick "sends a[her own] direct message that there is a demand for OEM Linux". helios has some similar-sounding writings on the former. I think that these are well-worth reading. Where is caitlyn on all this?? (haven;t heard from her in awhile) |
| carling Mar 16, 2010 2:14 PM EDT |
Every day on a certain website I visit, I give answers to peoples computer problems, many ask the question "what computer should I buy" " Dell or HP" Now being that these two companies support and install Linux on their business system, with great success, then on the one hand say they support Linux for the Consumers but show their contempt with the other hand, when it comes to supplying it to the consumers Over the passed 12 months I have hit back at both Dell and HP, for their contempt they are showing Linux, I have lost them 100's of sales. I give those that ask "What computer Dell or HP" I give them all the web links to the complaints both companies have, and to the laptop consumers magazine where HP and Dell have the worst ratings for complaints and hardware failures, Most I would admit are caused by windoz twista systems, Every day more and more problems are arising with the netbooks and notebooks that have windows 7 installed, Manufactures can't see that windows is causing their customers problems, but they don't care. I tell those people with problems to install Linux |
| flufferbeer Mar 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT |
I'll even build upon what I wrote by mentioning some business sense for Dell. On the consumer end, Dell is continuing to ignore its customers who request Linux or at least no OS, and yet they continue to price such notebooks higher than with Lo$edow$. Let's say that Dell keeps offering as low a cost as possible on its notebooks with the lousy M$ OS. Then the key incentive i$ that Dell ABSOLUTELY MUST KEEP ON OFFERING SUPER-LOW PRICES!!! The pressure falls squarely on Dell to keep on doing this And this regardless of what OS actually ends up installed. The instant a very good competitor offers even lower notebook prices with Linux pre-installed (and STAYS in business), then floodgates will open (and have opened!) to flee to that competitor instead of to Dell Again, when this happens, the cost-cutting pressures on Dell come right back to bite them on their behinds! Then to further cost-cut and remain as competitive, Dell will have an ever more pressured "urge" to offer the least expensive bottom-line consumer notebooks with no OS installed or else Linux. Betcha that Dell even realizes this -fb |
| dinotrac Mar 16, 2010 2:45 PM EDT |
fluffer - Sure, but... we're still waiting. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 16, 2010 3:33 PM EDT |
Since I don't buy "desktop" packages, there's no payment to MS. Laptops, well, as the saying goes, I take what I can get. Showed the Elive CD to a guy today, he was thrilled. Said, "Gee, Linux has come a LONG way!" I gave him my card, too, so we'll see what happens. |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 16, 2010 4:16 PM EDT |
fluffer, I hate to tell you; you have had way too much Beer. Quoting: [...] Are YOU serious that there are NO alternate and widely accepted methods for registering the type of OS used on Dell machines other than Gartner's and IDC's tallying this up as a Lo$edow$ sale ?? And relatedly, have you seen some of the support tickets on those who ALREADY HAVE pre-installed Lo$edow$ Of course not!Have you ever heard the term: ROI [aka Return on Investment]? Well if you had you should recognize for the efforts expended, tc's option has a higher value than your proposals. Initially I assumed you were too taken with your program, which under rates the effort vs. the payback. However, I now stand in awe of your play an words. Your a Shill like me, pushing Dell sales. Ignore everything, just buy Dell and feel superior. Wow! Your Admiring Buddy Txt. |
| hkwint Mar 16, 2010 5:03 PM EDT |
Just ask for a refund. Dell usually bends. Let's say a Linux desktop is $1000, the Windows one with the same hardware is $900, than the same Windows laptop with refund is $850 max. Even better, if you ask for a refund, it's going to cost Dell so many dollars it evaporates all profits they might make on your sale. I suggest _every_ Windows refund may easily cost them several hundreds of dollars. Especially if someone goes to court and Dell has to pay for juridical costs (this happened with Acer in France / Italy, they had to refund over 300 euro's). That's the only way to change all this, if everyone who doesn't want to buy Windows instead buys a Windows desktop and causes $500 of losses at Dell. If Dell looses $500 on any Linux-computer they sell with Windows, they will eventually change their behaviour. I wonder if it's legal if I'd -pose as a reseller on eBay, -offer $875 Linux Dell computers via eBay, -if somebody orders one, I buy a $900 box from Dell, -I manage the refund, and receive $50 or so ($300 would be far better of course), -I resell the box for $875, -I make a profit, Dell loses a few hundreds of dollars. -Repeat, repeat, repeat! And do some advertizing. Someone at Dell has to start thinking. If such a thing was legal, this might make for a nice business. The first time there's a high risk and it's a lot of work and maybe there's a trial, but for he second / third sale etc. it's just repetition, you can reference your last transaction and finally you'll know some people at Dell, they will know you and things should go 'automated'. |
| flufferbeer Mar 16, 2010 6:05 PM EDT |
@TxtEdMacs
I like your humor!
Ale or lager, it's all beer :)
Doesn't even bother me that Dell or other hw OEM machines will never be Free as in Beer, as in RMS's slogan.
You wrote:
"Your a Shill like me, pushing Dell sales. Ignore everything, just buy Dell and feel superior. Wow!"
Wowee, yipes, you betcha!
There ARE some other Lo$edow$-preinstalled discounters with non-Dell new machines offered. You yourself probably know such discounters, yes?
And I'm alright as long as there is good, cheap, price competition for Dell's market-twisted OS-priorities whether you buy from Dell or not, and as long as DELL KNOWS THIS !! I like hkwint's idea of further "sticking it to the Dell man" by asking for that M$ refund once you get that dirt-cheap machine from Dell w/ Lo$edow$ pre-installed. Goes along with the idea of continuing to keep that OS price-pressure on Dell. |
| tuxchick Mar 16, 2010 10:50 PM EDT |
flufferbeer, I'm surprised you agreed with me. |
| DiBosco Mar 17, 2010 7:43 AM EDT |
I recently rang Dell asking about a laptop I was interested in, but I wasn't willing to pay for a Windows licence. They would have been quite happy to sell it to me without an OS. Maybe it's different in different countries? BTW, what is "Lo$edow$"? |
| gus3 Mar 17, 2010 9:23 AM EDT |
"Lo$edow$" is a pre-installed virus hosting system. It originated in Redmond. |
| DiBosco Mar 17, 2010 3:14 PM EDT |
Oh, I see. Losedows rather than Windows. |
| gus3 Mar 17, 2010 3:46 PM EDT |
The second IT job I had (1996), I worked with a guy who stayed on Win3.1, and renamed "win.exe" to "lose.exe". |
| tracyanne Mar 17, 2010 5:03 PM EDT |
@DiBoscoQuoting:I wasn't willing to pay for a Windows licence. They would have been quite happy to sell it to me without an OS They were willing to sell me one with no OS (well FreeDOS actually), I wasn't willing to buy it at $150 more than it was with Windows, and I wasn't willing to buy it with Windows. |
| herzeleid Mar 17, 2010 5:22 PM EDT |
I have principles, but I also have to be somewhat pragmatic. I guess I'd hold my nose and buy the machine with mswindows to get the cheaper price, then immediately install a suitable OS, without ever booting into mswindows. I'd then let the vendor know, using all available channels, and out of band communications, that I bought the machine to run linux and only linux. Hey if some misguided microsoft buddies want to subsidize the price of my linux box, so be it. I can play their silly game, but they won't get a cent from me. (Note - I will gladly pay for quality Linux software, so it's not that I'm a cheapskate, but I'm not going to spend one more cent on microsoft windows, or software that runs only on microsoft windows.) |
| tracyanne Mar 17, 2010 6:43 PM EDT |
@herzeleid I have other choices, I can source hardware elsewhere, that is every bit as good as Dell's, with No OS or even Ubuntu pre Installed. I just wanted to know what deal they would offer, I would have been surprised, pleasantly, if they had offered the machine with No OS or FreeDos at a price less than with Windows. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 17, 2010 7:01 PM EDT |
> $150 more than it was with Windows That's a lot of shrimp. |
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