No, I cannot imagine anything as destructive as Government
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Bob_Robertson Apr 21, 2011 11:23 PM EDT |
I mean really, nothing else can initiate force with impunity, and declare itself justified. Yes, it's a political comment. It's a political article. |
| dinotrac Apr 21, 2011 11:39 PM EDT |
@Bob -- Cafeteria ladies and soon-to-be ex-wives. |
| tuxchick Apr 22, 2011 12:13 AM EDT |
Depends how you define government, Bob. Anyone with sufficient power to get away with mass mayhem definitely puts a bummer on life. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 22, 2011 8:44 AM EDT |
TC, the general definition of govt boils down to "the institution with the legal monopoly on the initiation of force". This is very much a "good idea", in that it removes the "initiation of force" as a legitimate means of personal interaction from regular folk's daily lives. Not that regular folks haven't lived that way for a very long time already. Voluntary cooperation is the rule the vast majority of the time for the vast majority of the people. "Civil" society. "Anyone with sufficient power to get away with {it}" also fits, such as the Mafia, but those kinds of groups do not hold the sheen of legitimacy that defines the state, even if the methods are identical. It also remains "legitimate" to defend one's self against agents of those illegitimate power wielders, while one is specifically and overwhelmingly punished when one defends one's self against an agent of the self-proclaimed state. I couldn't agree more about the "mass mayhem" thing. Nothing sends chills down my spine faster than a bunch of well-regulated state employees "obeying orders". |
| dinotrac Apr 22, 2011 9:05 AM EDT |
@Bob - I'm sorry Bob, but that definition of government, while true, gives a free pass to "pseduo-government" entities that wreak havoc in our lives, including those who can chain us to indentured servitude, take our homes, deny us the ability to receive care for our illnesses, purchase Senators to pass laws that coerce money from our pockets into theirs. This whole libertarian "government is evil, "private" industry is good" thing is getting altogether quaint. It was fine in a day of government on one hand and craftspeople, citizen-farmers and the like on the other, but...we ain't there no more. |
| Libervis Apr 22, 2011 9:46 AM EDT |
How does defining government as "the institution with the legal monopoly on the initiation of force" give a free pass to other violence peddlers? Those who don't believe in violence will equally judge against those who do it without the legitimacy veil (various mafias down to small thieves and murderers) and those who do it under such a veil (government, military). The reason why government tends to be our primary target is that veil of legitimacy itself. We agree that what mafia men and thieves and murderers do is bad, but when it comes to government doing the same thing all of ye supposedly anti-violence people turn up with a universe of excuses. This is plainly irrational. Nothing quaint about it. |
| dinotrac Apr 22, 2011 9:58 AM EDT |
Liubervis - Well, for starters, the definition is a lie. The goverment doesn't have a monopoly on the initiation of force. Just as we recognize that somebody who hires a hit man is equally guilty for the murder, we need to recognize that those who manipulate and abuse legal machinery initiating force when a sheriff throws them out of their home, etc.. Government still stands above the others in its ability to apply the criminal law (although the MPAA and RIAA make me wonder), and still acts as the "hands" for applying that force, but plenty of others deserve to be lumped in with them. And -- one wonders if a government that can be voted out is actually as dangerous to our rights as a multinational corporation that cannot. |
| Fettoosh Apr 22, 2011 10:11 AM EDT |
Quoting:Depends how you define government, ... I agree with TC. Government doesn't have to be bad. The US Government is supposed to be "Of the people, by the people, for the people" and should have stayed that way. I am sure you are familiar with this QUOTATION: “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?” “A Republic, if you can keep it.” So Instead, people lost site and allowed it to go haywire. Strengthening the principles of government was the peoples responsibility and we failed. We shouldn't be attacking the principles of government, but rather, we should be improving it. One thing the US constitution should have in it is for the people to call for a referendum on national issues. Like declaration or continuation of war, Health Care, Social Security and most importantly, amendments to the constitution. Democratic elections work best when people are educated, informed, and responsible. I am not sure that is the case any more. Besides, people these days don't really have much choice when selecting the best of two evils is all they have. That is not much of a good choice and the system must be amended. The majority of the current government officials are nothing more than sleazy salesman bought and hired by corporations and there is nothing that people can do except revolting. Many already do by not voting, but that didn't make any progress but instead made things worse. Plato said "Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato" Some famous quotes about politics http://www.quotegarden.com/politics.html |
| tuxchick Apr 22, 2011 10:42 AM EDT |
The common flaw in any institution or system is people. What sort of makes the US work is enough checks and balances to keep the bullies, whether elected, corporate, or religious, somewhat restrained. These days it doesn't seem to be working so well. |
| dinotrac Apr 22, 2011 10:53 AM EDT |
>These days it doesn't seem to be working so well. I expect it to start working better in the future, though I'm not sure how far ahead that future is. Politics is a complicated place, and it takes a while for people to catch up with it. |
| jdixon Apr 22, 2011 1:01 PM EDT |
> I expect it to start working better in the future, though I'm not sure how far ahead that future is. Well, this is largely a US centric discussion at this point. So first allow me to apologize to the non-US folks amongst us. That said, I agree. Recent events have energized a significant heretofore inactive portion of the electorate, on both sides of the political aisle. That can only be a good thing as far as government responsiveness to the people goes. In my mind the troubling question is whether that responsiveness will result in action while there's still time to prevent a total economic collapse of our government. There is no doubt that current spending levels cannot be maintained at current tax revenue levels. Something has to change on one or both fronts, and I've seen no signs of a willingness to embrace that change on the part of most of our current representatives. |
| montezuma Apr 22, 2011 5:00 PM EDT |
TC Part of the problem is that elections have become an exercise in mass manipulation rather than a policy debate. This implies that our "representatives" have become cattle herders rather than public servants. This is due to both special interests in DC plus the public's decreasing attention span. I guess if there is a severe economic meltdown due to DC dysfunction something will get done. Pretty sado-masochistic way to run a country though |
| tuxchick Apr 22, 2011 5:06 PM EDT |
montezuma, what you said ++++++++++ |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 22, 2011 8:22 PM EDT |
I find it interesting that Dino completely missed the word "legitimate". The institution with the monopoly on the LEGITIMATE initiation of force. Of course govt does not have the monopoly on force, or there would be no "private" crime. I will leave alone the fact that mere private crime pales to insignificance in comparison to the lives and treasure wasted by govts. And the toadies who buy influence, to get their share of Sovereign Immunity for their own, is nothing I'm leaving out either. I will gladly point out that the abuses carried out by the buying of influence with legislators and bureaucrats in ALL countries, is terrible and abusive. It also has little or nothing to do with anything like a free market. All I want is entirely voluntary interaction. I object to there BEING an institution with the ability to cause harm and then declare itself and its agents immune from prosecution. That's all. Then, when someone does cause harm, they can be held accountable for their actions regardless of who their employer is. I agree with Montezuma, things are getting so strung out that something WILL break. I dread that break, whenever it comes, because I honestly believe the US can easily decay into a theocratic dictatorship. That's not going to do anyone any good. |
| dinotrac Apr 22, 2011 10:28 PM EDT |
Bob - I didn't miss it. I dismissed the significance. I agree with montezuma, but only a smidge. Recent elections, I believe, indicate that the public is paying attention. We haven't been given much to work with, so we do the most powerful thing available to us: We vote against the people who are screwing us over. The ones coming in may be no better, but, at some point, it will dawn on somebody that holding on to your seat (and the doorway it provides to riches, power, and a nice lobbying job when you're done) requires a t least a passing nod to the people you represent. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 23, 2011 8:13 AM EDT |
Dino, > I didn't miss it. I dismissed the significance. Sorry, you can't do that. It is critical. The same act can be a crime, or legitimate policy, depending entirely on whether or not the one who commits the act is doing so as an official of govt or not. The corporate abuses you very correctly cite happen only because of the limited liability granted to those organizations by govts. To look at the depredations of GE and other mega-multinationals and declare them to be failures of the "free market" is just as absurd as pointing to Hanford Nuclear Facility and saying it's a failure of the "free market". The grants of limited liability stem from one of the last vestiges of Royalty that still pervades human society, Sovereign Immunity, the theory that The King Can Do No Wrong. Strict liability for everyone, be they cop or mother or driver. No limited liability, no excuse of "just following orders", no ability to say "department policy" as the deputies did who beat the crap out of Rodney King. Can you agree to that? |
| dinotrac Apr 23, 2011 9:39 AM EDT |
Bob - Of course I can, and the difference is not critical unless that power is unavailable to other interests. In our society, that simply isn't the case. The government is all too willing to act as agent. |
| hkwint Apr 23, 2011 7:58 PM EDT |
Quoting:and then declare itself and its agents immune from prosecution. That's all. Then, when someone does cause harm, they can be held accountable for their actions regardless of who their employer is. That's why there's the International Criminal Court. Those who prosecuted Slobodan Milošević, Radovan Karadžić and those accountable for the genocide in Rwanda. Of course, there are some 'less civilized' states which have not ratified said court; most of them where the citizens are held dumb by the media. For example: China, Russia, Iran, Somalia, Algeria, Libya, Burma, Oman, Sudan and some country called "United States of America". Last country didn't rule out the possibility of invading The Hague (NL, that's effing NATO-territory! When the US invades NATO soil, article 5 of NATO says US should help us to defend against the invaders, being the US themselves!) if the ICC will ever prosecute US citizens. In other words: Please don't project the 'exceptional situation' in which your country is upon the rest of the world. The US belongs to a minority of countries in which government officials cannot be held liable for anything, but such isn't true for _all_ governments. Of course we all (oughta?) know how the SEC / Obama administration is ruled by Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase & Co, how the FDA is run by the pharma companies and USPTO is funded by the patent-request industry. And worse, none of these problems are ever criticized on US big networks / national TV. The only critical reports/documentaries made by the 'free press' about this kind of issues which I'm aware of, are to be found in 'Rolling Stone - magazine' (for great coverage about how the banks caused the 'economical crises' and are robbing both the wealth and houses of US citizens), some American expat living in Russia now (Max Keiser) and also funded by Iran it seems, or Scientology Church documentaries (the pretty flawed "Psychiatry: Industry of Death" - heavily biased but still some nice facts about the pharma companies basically owning the decision making process). This is only my limited list of 'critic press' I'm aware of, hopefully there are more examples like this. I think James Bessen wrote some nice things about patents. But why the hell don't they talk about his great work on TV? So when one wants to know about the financial state of the country one has to read a music magazine (!) or watch Russian/Iranian based TV, and when wants to know about pharma one has to consult CCHR (Scientology institution!), then even aborting the government won't help your country anymore. It's better to start educating people by means of good and honest journalism, instead of broadcasting "whatever large companies pay for". I mean, when people's minds are screwed by Microsoft 'Industrial Property" indoctrination, "aborting" Microsoft will not mean people are educated about Free Software and will use it instead. More probably, they'll go to another prison like Apple. In pretty much the same way, if you 'kill' the corporate-paid institution which has a monopoly on the use of force, said companies will find another way to exert force on the population. Government is merely a tool, serving for the benefits of the wealthy people / companies who fund it. SO JD, thanks for noticing there's US and THEM, and the majority of the world - amongst which yours sincerely - belongs to THEM, not US. Not to say my country is much better, we're in pretty much the same shitty situation where almost no citizen understands how history's largest robbery of citizens done by banks caused the current crisis (where else did all wealth go?), and our politicians are also not held responsible for supporting the illegal operation in Iraq. It's just "not as bad" as in some other countries in my opinion. That's why - for all I know - democracy means: "Ruled by the people", and not "Ruled by the wealthy & their corporations". And that's why lots of US citizens don't want a government I think: Theirs cannot be trusted as it's not "ruled by the people". |
| dinotrac Apr 23, 2011 11:31 PM EDT |
@hans - Or, in the alternative, you can wonder about those who get their economic facts from Rolling Stone and news from Jon Stewart. |
| Fettoosh Apr 24, 2011 12:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:So when one wants to know about the financial state of the country one has to read a music magazine (!) or watch Russian/Iranian based TV, and when wants to know about pharma one has to consult CCHR (Scientology institution!), then even aborting the government won't help your country anymore. It's better to start educating people by means of good and honest journalism, instead of broadcasting "whatever large companies pay for". It mostly takes an outsider with a different agenda to expose the faults of others. And that doesn't mean they are lying. Quoting:Or, in the alternative, you can wonder about those who get their economic facts from Rolling Stone and news from Jon Stewart. When multiple other sources publish the same or similar findings, there is no reason to dispute their facts or can't be trusted. |
| tuxchick Apr 24, 2011 12:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:It mostly takes an outsider with a different agenda to expose the faults of others. And that doesn't mean they are lying. That is often true. Quoting:When multiple other sources publish the same or similar findings, there is no reason to dispute their facts or can't be trusted. This is trickier. You've probably heard of the echo chamber effect, which is a cool name for an orchestrated propaganda campaign. In this awesome Internet era the echo chamber is nearly instantaneous, and it gives people who are invested in a particular viewpoint warm fuzzies to see it echoed all over. To get facts and to verify stories you need source documents, witnesses, data, and all those fun things that are time-consuming and not fun. Though sometimes it's easy, because there is so much information publicly and easily available. |
| dinotrac Apr 24, 2011 12:59 PM EDT |
@tc -- Yup. Amazing how many things that are "sourced" in many places turn out to grow from a single bad seed. |
| hkwint Apr 24, 2011 1:38 PM EDT |
Dino: No reason at all to wonder, please decide for your own! Why isn't Wall Street in Jail Invasion of the home snatchers The great American bubble machine The Khan Academy offers a great 'course' (for free!) on the Credit Crisis. BTW I have no idea who Jon Stewart is, but even if the Max Keiser guy is full of rhetoric, sarcasm and exaggeration, it's great to hear at least _one_ US bloke who screams about how big banks are robbing US citizens. If you're up to date with those (maybe you are; more power to you if so!), by then you'll understand how the banks are robbing you and other US citizens, and why Max Keiser calls them 'financial terrorists'. Then, I suggest you move on to reading BoomBustBlog, the greatest source on the 'credit crisis' I'm aware of, by the guy who foresaw this whole crisis and bankruptcy of Lehman, who explains why Case Schiller and the stress-tests are worthless, and who's currently shorting Apple (even while Goldman Sachs is bullish on AAPL). Whatever you believe, it's great there's the internet to give 'different opinions' to US citizens which they wouldn't see on TV. Moreover, no, you don't have to read Rolling Stone magazine to be informed about economics; in my own country several documentaries of how GS, MS, JPM & Co are robbing US citizens have been broadcasted. Part 1 of "European cities 'hostaged' by investment banks", the other "episodes" (cut for Youtube, the four episodes are one documentary) can be found by exchanging part numbers. But they're mostly in Italian and Dutch (partially English). This one is in English, also broadcasted on 'third channel'. Over here, we have somebody blaming the head of the Dutch Bank (the Dutch FED) and big US banks for being a lobbyist on the Netherlands 'most popular talkshow'. This guy has been warning for a US credit crisis since about I started watching his daily news item (on "fifth channel"), in about 2003. Please watch from 2.04 for the part in English (Paulson before some "hearing committee" explaining why he didn't pay taxes from the hundreds of millions he received from selling his GS-shares). The problem is, Dutch TV networks do broadcast this kind of documentaries / items on about the most watched TV channels in my country, but US TV networks don't. We even had a documentary about how Chinese real estate will soon burst. So if your networks don't broadcast this kind of documentaries - which _are_ broadcasted outside the US, then if you're in the US and don't know "languages" besides English, all you can do is find your info somewhere else! |
| dinotrac Apr 24, 2011 2:13 PM EDT |
Gosh, Hans! It's true in my country, too. Lots of sources for news. |
| hkwint Apr 24, 2011 3:20 PM EDT |
Well, to stay on topic: I cannot imagine anything as destructive as 'bad mass media'. Look at Italy, and you'll get the idea. |
| dinotrac Apr 24, 2011 5:25 PM EDT |
Hans - Have to agree. Don't know of any nation that is immune to it. Natives, of course, are the last to know. |
| Fettoosh Apr 24, 2011 5:35 PM EDT |
Quoting:This is trickier. Very Good point TC, What I meant and should have said "Independent Sources". |
| tuxchick Apr 24, 2011 8:42 PM EDT |
At any rate, Bob's original comment is right on, though not entirely on-topic. This sums up the article:Quoting: But if you ever want to kill innovation in a New York minute, let the United States Congress regulate a technology they know absolutely nothing about. I swear most of them poke anything tech-related with sticks and pour holy water on it to keep the debbils from biting them. |
| hkwint Apr 25, 2011 1:15 PM EDT |
Yeah, indeed, I'm sorry to be off topic, but I just couldn't resist. When my province in NL is about the warmest place in Europe (27C / 80F) I start to behave funny it seems, ahem. We're not used to such temperatures in April - especially not for two weeks consecutively. I shouldn't watch Scientology documentaries maybe, before it gets out of hand. Enfin... I had to laugh about the 77-year old senator that probably doesn't own a computer. I'm curious if somebody told him the difference between a "Commodore 64" and the cloud. On the other hand, politicians in this country - even while not 77 but only in their 40's / 50's don't know poop about "computing" either. As a kind of practical joke, some journalists over here spoofed phone numbers. Then, they could act like they were the president. He's called "premier" over here as it's a monarchy, and over here the 'little tower' is the equivalent of the White House in the US. So the journalists acted like they were the president, and sent a text message to the minister of foreign affairs: "I'm at the toilet in the little tower, and I'm out of toilet paper". Because the phone number was spoofed, the minister of foreign affairs really believed he received that message from the president. It shows, bullying politicians by means of technology they don't know about can be really fun! |
| penguinist Apr 25, 2011 2:29 PM EDT |
Certainly, Hans, you would have no direct personal knowledge of this little spoof. Would you? |
| hkwint Apr 25, 2011 2:49 PM EDT |
PowNed, not me. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 25, 2011 4:54 PM EDT |
I've found that I get my "news" mostly from YouTube, which means from lots of different sources including Russia Today, and my economics from Mises.org and LewRockwell.com. I watch Jon Stewart, once every few months, just for laughs. Like tuning in to see Johnny Carson's monologue, and skipping the rest as irrelevant. Ooops, did I just date myself? |
| dinotrac Apr 25, 2011 6:49 PM EDT |
I get my news from the Waffle House. No less accurate and far more entertaining than the "real" news. |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 25, 2011 6:59 PM EDT |
I get my news from LXer..wait..I run LXer that won't work. Let me try this again, I get my news from LXer..oh no not again..;-) |
| gus3 Apr 25, 2011 7:46 PM EDT |
Scott, you're in the enviable position of deciding what's news and what isn't. |
| jdixon Apr 25, 2011 8:06 PM EDT |
> ... you're in the enviable position of deciding what's news and what isn't. And he gets to put up with us second guessing him. How's that enviable? :) |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 25, 2011 8:17 PM EDT |
"With great power comes great responsibility.." - Spider-Man/Voltaire |
| dinotrac Apr 25, 2011 9:17 PM EDT |
And "With great powder, comes great responsive skis" -- Jean Claude Killy and others. |
| hkwint Apr 26, 2011 6:45 AM EDT |
The waffle house? Really? You people don't have hairdressers? Or maybe just no hair or something, I don't know. Where I go, the hairdressers don't speak Dutch that well. So - apart from inet - most of the time I read my news in questionable magazines at the Chinese take-away. It's the most important part of choosing your take-away (even more important than the taste): They shouldn't be so quick they finished my meal before I finished reading the magazine. BTW: Russia and China are very good at cloud regulation! They can make clouds drop their rain before the clouds reach parts which should stay dry. And with great powder and responsiveness, usually comes a great white moustache! |
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